How far is too far?

[Tripplebeards]

After shooting at the range yesterday and achieving sub MOA shooting just over half inch groups with my Ruger 77/44 I'm going to load up a few and try them through my chrony to check velocity so I can figure out energy and drops at long distance. I'm using a 263gr Lyman devastator backed by 21.1 GR of lil gun out of a 16.5" barrel. I'm going to guess my muzzle velocity is going to be around 1700 fps or a hair faster.

I got thinking about a deer I shot with an old knight bk92 muzzle loader close to 20 years ago using 2, 50 grains of the first gen pellets before 777 came out. I back boned a whitetail at 297 yards with open sights using a sabot stuffed with a 44 cal 265gr hornady jacketed soft point. It of course dropped on the spot and took a chunk out out of its back the size of a small coffee can.

I would assume the the velocity was less with this load than my devastator load and I can tell you I'm going to be way more accurate with my Nikon BDC to figure out drops.

My tc omega with 150 grains of triple 7 and a 300 shock wave will shoot 3" groups at 300 yards with optics. I know it's a little more velocity than my 44 rifle. But what I'm getting at is if I can achieve acceptable accuracy at 300 plus yards with my 77/44 how far can I push it to the point it will run out of ethical kinetic energy for let's say whitetail size game.

I don't plan on doing it since the farthest shot I have is a little over a hundred yards on my property but I'm just curious.

[Chihuahua Floyd]

My person limits are simple. How far have I shot the particular gun and load on paper? Can I hit an 8" paper plate at this distance? If so I am good to go. If not, I will not take the shot. Theory is great for science, but not for shooting at a living animal.
Now, if said animal is already hit and about to be lost, then shoot as long as you can see it or until you run out of ammo.
Just my $0.02
CF

[RU shooter]

Long as you can hit where your aiming and have enough energy left to get a clean pass through on a broad side shot . Yeah animals have been killed without 2 holes but that's what I perfer

[TXGunNut]

In this case velocity and range will certainly be a factor. Knowing the muzzle velocity, the drop at given distances and the actual distance to the target will all be critical. Your bullet will drop very quickly inside of what many folks consider normal hunting distances so a good hit will be dependent on luck or you doing your homework. Every situation is different, I pass or wait for closer shots when game is well within the capabilities of your round but I have many opportunities to fill my freezer each season so I can afford to wait for a shot I like.

Mike

[500Linebaughbuck]

using cast boolits(rifle), i'd go 150-200 yards.

using j-word bullets, i'd go 300-325 yards.

i've shot deer, using j-words, at about 400 yards+/-, but that was in my younger years.

[Tripplebeards]

using cast boolits(rifle), i'd go 150-200 yards.

using j-word bullets, i'd go 300-325 yards.

i've shot deer, using j-words, at about 400 yards+/-, but that was in my younger years.

Why the variance in yardage between cast and jacketed? If both were just as accurate and traveling at the same weight and velocity I would assume they both would harvest an animal at equal distances?

[Neverhome]

I don't want to speak for anyone but I read that to imply they wouldn't be launched at the same velocity, jacketed vs cast. I know I can safely push a jacketed much faster than a cast which would extend MY effective range.

[Hardcast416taylor]

Like an old friends Father once told me when I asked that same question many years back when I was a youngster."If you have to wonder how far away that shot would be, it`s too far"!Robert

[500Linebaughbuck]

Why the variance in yardage between cast and jacketed? If both were just as accurate and traveling at the same weight and velocity I would assume they both would harvest an animal at equal distances?

cast goes 1800fps or less, while j-words go 2700fps or higher

[zymguy]

how far can I push it to the point it will run out of ethical kinetic energy for let's say whitetail size game.

a little reading brings you to about 1000 ft lbs. A little more reading than that leads to a LOT more reading. Im still on the Lot more reading stage so I cant answer. I do think you've satisfied paper plate criteria /competency criteria by explaining you were shooting half min of angle (its an impressive stat). Remember that your ability to measure the range is as important as aiming here. I'm going to continue to look at boolit weights and velocities and will probably continue with this question forever. For me its part of the fun

[Tripplebeards]

cast goes 1800fps or less, while j-words go 2700fps or higher

We are talking about a 44 mag rifle here...2700 fps is definitely not possible with this caliber which is the caliber I asked about.

If we you are just grabbing numbers out of the air It is possible to shoot cast at 2700 fps BTW. Lyman's 50th has 2700 fps loads for the 35 whelen. I've loaded 125gr noslers in my 300 rum at 3950 fps, but let's try and stay on the same page...apples to apples. That's why I asked if all things are equal...EXACT boolit vs bullet weight pushed at the EXACT same velocity there is going to be no difference in terminal performance other than the hard cast boolit will stay together better and penatrate further. I'm sure ballistic coefficient will have a little play in it as well.

I just ran across this. Apparently Elmer Keith finished off a whitetail at 600 yards with his 44 mag revolver that had a load using a 300 gr bullet with a Muzzel velocity around 1350fps. I didn't and still wouldn't think there would be enough kinetic energy left at that range to harvest a deer or even penatrate the Hyde. I'm guessing the only way this would have happened is he hit it in the head and there might have been just enough energy left to crack it skull or I'm calling BS.lol I think there were some good creative writers back in the day.

http://elmerkeithwasdeadright.blogspot.com/

[Chad5005]

tripplebeards im with you about the creative writers and 600 yards,me personally would not shoot anything I own in 44 magnum over a 150 yards at an animal,i have a 44sbh with a 10 1/2 barrel and a ruger 44 carbine,im sure your 77/44 is way more accurate,jmo

[Chihuahua Floyd]

I limit my 44 Mag rifle to 100 yards or less. Drop is very pronounced after that and rang estimation become very critical. I've seem people think "that's about 100 yards" for a 150 yard shot. Hit the deer in the knee. Got lucky and recovered it.
CF

[dverna]

I am very skeptical of your accuracy claims....but....

If the gun is that accurate, and you are a good enough shot, I would stretch the range to wherever you have 500 ft-lbs of energy. With the loopy trajectory you will have, I would limit the range to where a 20 yard error in range estimation does not affect POI by more than 5 inches. Many deer are taken with a .357 Mag, so the 1000 Ft-lb number often quoted is higher than needed if the shot can be placed.

I still hunt, or hunt from blinds over food plots. It allows me to range the most likely spots I will see a deer before I need to take the shot. In the blind, I have the ranges marked on piece of paper and tacked to the wall. I feel confident going out to 400 yards, but I use a .308 with jacketed bullets. It is sub MOA off a bench but I am not capable of shooting that well in the field, thus the 400 yard limit.

[BK7saum]

That 600 yard shot, would've had around 300ftlb of energy or slightly less, and around 700 fps velocity left. Yeah, I think it would've penetrated and not bounced off.

Folks load 200 grain FBI 38 loads to about 750 fps for PD loads.

[Tripplebeards]

I am very skeptical of your accuracy claims....but....

If the gun is that accurate, and you are a good enough shot, I would stretch the range to wherever you have 500 ft-lbs of energy. With the loopy trajectory you will have, I would limit the range to where a 20 yard error in range estimation does not affect POI by more than 5 inches. Many deer are taken with a .357 Mag, so the 1000 Ft-lb number often quoted is higher than needed if the shot can be placed.

I still hunt, or hunt from blinds over food plots. It allows me to range the most likely spots I will see a deer before I need to take the shot. In the blind, I have the ranges marked on piece of paper and tacked to the wall. I feel confident going out to 400 yards, but I use a .308 with jacketed bullets. It is sub MOA off a bench but I am not capable of shooting that well in the field, thus the 400 yard limit.

You can check my photos that I've posted on my home page of the different loads I've tried. I've been doing a lot of tweeking with this firearm to get it shoot. No offense but I'm sure I've put in more time than most trying to get a 77/44 to shoot...and it was off the bench. I do own several firearms that can shoot cloverleaves at a 100 yards. My avatar is from my 14.5" POF P415 using 25 gr of benchmark with a 60 gr vmax. I put a lot of time in at the bench and probably shoot a couple thousand rounds a year so I'm pretty confident in my shooting capabilities. Ill invite to you a range session any time you want proof if it makes you feel better.

Here's a group at a 100 yards with 21.2 gr of lil gun I shot doing load test last week.

http://i.imgur.com/KyfPU4G.jpg

If you check my home page I have a .8" 100 yard group posted using 21gr of h110 with a softer alloy along with a good half a dozen other groups ranging 1.24"-1.6" all at a 100 yards. I am fortunate to own an accurate rifle...but it didn't shoot like that out of the box. I acraglassed the action, free floated the barrel, added voltquarten trigger kit, polished the trigger group, and removed a few coils from the spring for a lighter trigger pull. I still have to do my part as well.

Anyways, I know a .430 cal 265 grain hornady at 300 yards will blow a double fist size hole out of a whitetails backbone. It was out of my Muzzel loader shot saboted with two 50 grain pellets of the first gen black powder pellets. I'm going to guess Muzzel velocity was 1200-1400 fps?

Once again, I don't have shot much over a 100 yards on my property and most deer I harvest are shot out of my tree stand at 30 yards or less...but I'm just courious on far a 263 gr cast boolit with a Muzzel velocity of 1700 fps can harvest an animal. I was hoping to get some feedback from someone who has harvested a deer at long distance with using a 44 mag rifle.



I have about a 400 yard range I can try next to my friends farm. I might have to set up some penatration tests.

[dk17hmr]

The nice thing about 40+ caliber bullets is you don’t really need expansion if the nose profile is correct. I’d bet with an impact velocity of 700fps or more would punch through the ribs of a whitetail.

Using Hornady’s ballistics calculator with a bc of .17 and a velocity of 1700fps it’s still running 717fps at 650 yards.....so it’ll kill pretty far.

I’d also bet the double pellet 265gr load you mentioned would chrono a bit faster than 1400fps at the muzzle.

[500Linebaughbuck]

We are talking about a 44 mag rifle here...2700 fps is definitely not possible with this caliber which is the caliber I asked about.

If we you are just grabbing numbers out of the air It is possible to shoot cast at 2700 fps BTW. Lyman's 50th has 2700 fps loads for the 35 whelen. I've loaded 125gr noslers in my 300 rum at 3950 fps, but let's try and stay on the same page...apples to apples. That's why I asked if all things are equal...EXACT boolit vs bullet weight pushed at the EXACT same velocity there is going to be no difference in terminal performance other than the hard cast boolit will stay together better and penatrate further. I'm sure ballistic coefficient will have a little play in it as well.

I just ran across this. Apparently Elmer Keith finished off a whitetail at 600 yards with his 44 mag revolver that had a load using a 300 gr bullet with a Muzzel velocity around 1350fps. I didn't and still wouldn't think there would be enough kinetic energy left at that range to harvest a deer or even penatrate the Hyde. I'm guessing the only way this would have happened is he hit it in the head and there might have been just enough energy left to crack it skull or I'm calling BS.lol I think there were some good creative writers back in the day.

http://elmerkeithwasdeadright.blogspot.com/


in a apples to apples your probably right. i like my ruger sbh in 44 mag but i love it when its a 44 spl. my tc encore in a 24" MGM barrel with a 444 marlin that loves to shoot cast. i would take a 275gr ranch dog and it would go 2300+fps. but since i've gotten i've gotten older, it hurts my shoulder. so i did the next big thing, i downloaded it to 1800fps and it still flattens deer(4 or 5 deer lol). this year i have a 300gr saeco fn with a 25.0gr of 2400 with a tuft of dacron that goes 1600+/-fps(i have to chrony it). my limit for deer is a 150 yards. i "chose" it. you can "choose" whatever yards you see fit.

you would be better off if you go to a 300 yard range and shoot it.

[Tripplebeards]

I'm getting there as well as far as recoil goes. I have calibers all the way up to 375 RUM but find myself shooting the less recoil rifles like my 44 mag. I bought a 450 bushmaster American RA a month after my 77/44 and it got all the attention at first. Between the Muzzel blast and being extremely loud from the brake I switched over the 77/44 as soon as I found a cast load that shot MOA...actually 1.1" at a 100 yards in it. The 77/44 it's much more enjoyable to shoot than the bigger 450. I think I just have too many firearms.lol

[quilbilly]

I use a similar weight boolit (265 gr 429 cal SWC-PB) with a sabot in my muzzleloader for elk and "long range" desert deer. My rule has been that when the velocity drops below 1050 for elk and 850 for deer, it is out of range. The Mv has been about 1500. Since only iron sights are legal here, my ability to get a decent sight picture, rest, and enough time to calculate the drop, my maximum range is well below those velocities with my old eyesight.

[Grmps]

I read on another forum where cast boolits were pushed accurately past 3150 fps.

There are many variables involved

FPS is limited by the alloy and what you do with it, length and twist of the barrel.

[Duckiller]

For high speed J bullets (257 -338) I zero at +3" at 100 yds. This lets me shoot to near 300 yds without allowing for drop. For slow speed j ( 30/30-35 Rem) or big gobs of lead I limit range to about 150 yds. These are mental limits. In all honerty the farthest zi have ever shoot a deer is about 75yds. Closest deer was shot in self defense. An eight pointer that filled a Weaver K4 scope. It stopped close and I moved the gun left and righ as far as I dared and all I saw was brown. Made a guess at the middle of the chest and pulled the trigger. He dropped, 180 gr Cor-Loc. When I go hunting I hunt the animal not to participate in a long distance shooting contest.