.308 win alloy questions: Hard cast vs Jacketed

[44Blam]

I remember talking to a guy about shooting .223. He said if you are shooting in a 1in8 barrel you need straight linotype hardness.

My 308 is a 1in10 twist and I am curious if I can shoot cast with straight linotype at jacketed speeds... Or can I do a 1:1 WW:Lino?

Currently, I am flush with lino, I got a killer deal on ebay for about $1/lb for letters... So, I stocked up...

I've got a nice mold: NOE 311-174-FN

It makes gas check'd boolits... I don't mind working up a load, but I am wondering if I can get 2500-2600 fps in lead boolits?

[John McCorkle]

Getting to that velocity and being accurate are two different things I am thinking...

Yes some do get to those velocities, talk to the guys over at arsenal molds ...they were telling me of some working their molds to those speeds with powder coating. I would imagine you'd need all the alloy toughness you can get. Maybe even look for a way to infuse copper alloy in their too.

Now getting accuracy is a different goal...it's like playing an electric guitar. If all the notes are right and tone of the guitar is good...when you plug in the amp and crank up the volume it just sounds better. But I never sounded so rough on guitar until it's turned way up and all those flaws in my playing are magnified.

Getting accuracy at lower velocities and pressure is a goal I chase for what seems like forever before I get it.... getting it at high velocities is much more complex as all those variables and 'flaws' get turned up and make accuracy tank.

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[Larry Gibson]

44blam

Yes you can shoot your cast bullets that fast but, as mentioned, accuracy will be pretty bad if existent at all, even with linotype alloy. There are many reasons for that. Consider this; if we could shoot cast bullets that fast with accuracy wouldn't we all be doing it? Some claim such but actual proof is lacking. With PC and extreme HT'ing some come close with "useable" accuracy at close range. Others do well with PP'ing. To be honest with you, with a naked cast bullet lubed and GC'd, 2500 - 2600 fps with your cast bullet just isn't going to happen with a 10" twist barrel with any semblance of accuracy.

Now if you had a 14" twist barrel of 26 +/- inch length then you could get there.

[John McCorkle]

44blam

Yes you can shoot your cast bullets that fast but, as mentioned, accuracy will be pretty bad if existent at all, even with linotype alloy. There are many reasons for that. Consider this; if we could shoot cast bullets that fast with accuracy wouldn't we all be doing it? Some claim such but actual proof is lacking. With PC and extreme HT'ing some come close with "useable" accuracy at close range. Others do well with PP'ing. To be honest with you, with a naked cast bullet lubed and GC'd, 2500 - 2600 fps with your cast bullet just isn't going to happen with a 10" twist barrel with any semblance of accuracy.

Now if you had a 14" twist barrel of 26 +/- inch length then you could get there.Mmm that's a good point, the longer your bbl length the better chance you have of getting to that velocity...and paper patching is a better chance at reaching those velocities. I think part of the reason is that paper patching is such a finicky thing that all the variables you may not have payed much attention to before (neck tension, culling any/all duds of your cast, concentricity of the loaded round, and tons of experimentation with powders and charge weight) you now have to keep a really close eye on to get good accuracy at velocity

Paper patching still works great at medium velocities too (comparatively...2200-2400) it just allows you to shoot very soft alloy for expansion in hunting application.

Paper patching is a white whale I've been chasing a while now...not overly devoted but excited about what I e seen so far. One day I'll prob shoot them exclusively for hunting but only when I can be certain I've got it down 100% pat. Looking for 2200-2400 fps with a 170 fn bullet of very soft/maleable alloy....it would be perfect on whitetail from my 06

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[John McCorkle]

Has anyone played with babbit allous containing copper here that can give some insight into how that will effect the alloy toughness to withstand the pressure?

Seems like I remember reading some here have tried with that and gotten higher velocities in small bore cast bullets

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[Rcmaveric]

Yes adding some copper to an alloy will toughen the alloy. I havent seen any good write ups on the different ways though. Most the threads are long and require some notes and time to read through. No simple directions written in simple terms.

My understanding is babbits is the easiest. Then CSo4 method which requires some math and chemistry knowledge and notes.

Personally i am looking for accuracy. At around 2000 fps that is MOA. I am hunter and thats about the velocity i need to dope bullet drop out to 200 yards within my shooting ability. I try to acheive that by the simplest means possible. I wish i had the time to experiment and play but i am raising kids and working over time. So i am happy with 1200 fps, 1600 fps, and 2000 fps loads. They each have their place and purpose. For me i have no need for a 3000fps load. Though i want to try one day.

I have no real world experience. Only what i have read. So i hope you try it. I know what and were I would start with if I were to try.

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[44Blam]

Yes adding some copper to an alloy will toughen the alloy. I havent seen any good write ups on the different ways though. Most the threads are long and require some notes and time to read through. No simple directions written in simple terms.

My understanding is babbits is the easiest. Then CSo4 method which requires some math and chemistry knowledge and notes.

Personally i am looking for accuracy. At around 2000 fps that is MOA. I am hunter and thats about the velocity i need to dope bullet drop out to 200 yards within my shooting ability. I try to acheive that by the simplest means possible. I wish i had the time to experiment and play but i am raising kids and working over time. So i am happy with 1200 fps, 1600 fps, and 2000 fps loads. They each have their place and purpose. For me i have no need for a 3000fps load. Though i want to try one day.

I have no real world experience. Only what i have read. So i hope you try it. I know what and were I would start with if I were to try.

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I think I'll start at 1500 or so and work up... I can see now me pilfering the speaker cables for hard boolits and my wife barging into the garage... *** is wrong with the TV?!?

[Kraschenbirn]

I'm pushing an Arsenal 309-188GC (see link below) cast from straight Lyman #2 and PC'd with Smoke's Clear at close to 2100 fps and getting consistent 2 MOA (or better). Rifle is a Savage M10 with 24" fluted barrel that will hold sub-MOA with my clones of M118LR so I'm not completely satisfied and still tinkering/fine tuning. Btw, I really like this boolit design but it's kind of a PITA to work with...two-step resizing: first to seat the GC and size the drive band and, then, size the nose in a separate operation.

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=190&limit=99999999999

Bill

[GregLaROCHE]

I'm pushing an Arsenal 309-188GC (see link below) cast from straight Lyman #2 and PC'd with Smoke's Clear at close to 2100 fps and getting consistent 2 MOA (or better). Rifle is a Savage M10 with 24" fluted barrel that will hold sub-MOA with my clones of M118LR so I'm not completely satisfied and still tinkering/fine tuning. Btw, I really like this boolit design but it's kind of a PITA to work with...two-step resizing: first to seat the GC and size the drive band and, then, size the nose in a separate operation.

http://arsenalmolds.com/products?product_id=190&limit=99999999999

Bill

Why are you nose sizing? To reduce overall length or something else?
Thanks

[MT Gianni]

Has anyone played with babbit allous containing copper here that can give some insight into how that will effect the alloy toughness to withstand the pressure?

Seems like I remember reading some here have tried with that and gotten higher velocities in small bore cast bullets

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Yes they have and were shouted down so hard they left the forum. It didn't change their results.

[Kraschenbirn]

Why are you nose sizing? To reduce overall length or something else?
Thanks

Two reasons:

(1) My M10 has a very tight bore...like .300/.3075...and a very short throat. Chamber appears to have been cut for G.I. M118s and bolt will not close on anything with over .301 nose diameter without seating boolit with GC well below the case neck. As an example, bolt will not close on RCBS 165SILs, sized .310 and seated to chamber .060 off the rifling in my McGowan-barreled M700.

(2) Boolit is a true 'bore-rider' and, seated as designed, requires a max. .301 dia. for the portion of the nose extending into the rifling.

Bill

[Larry Gibson]

Has anyone played with babbit allous containing copper here that can give some insight into how that will effect the alloy toughness to withstand the pressure?

Seems like I remember reading some here have tried with that and gotten higher velocities in small bore cast bullets

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Numerous members here have used babbitt to harden bullets. Others add copper in other ways. This thread may provide some information;

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?172475-High-Copper-Alloys-Lets-discuss-this-further

I had/have babbitt ingots (thanks to badgerredd) and have mixed several different alloy percentages with the babbitt and tested them. They can give a bit better performance as to holding accuracy to a bit higher velocity in some faster twist barrels. Adding to much Cu via babbitt presents problems of its own. I was not able to get any real benefit accuracy wise, especially past 100 yards, out of the quadra alloy over a ternary alloy such as #2 alloy or linotype when pushing to higher velocity.

Given a 30 caliber ternary alloyed cast bullet can be shot at 2700 - 2900+ fps and hold moa accuracy at 600 yards with 14 & 16" twist rifles with 48 - 50,000 psi (actually measured, not guessed at) and the same can't be done with 10 or 12" twists at the same level of psi the problem is not one of the alloy holding up to the psi.

[waco]

44blam

Yes you can shoot your cast bullets that fast but, as mentioned, accuracy will be pretty bad if existent at all, even with linotype alloy. There are many reasons for that. Consider this; if we could shoot cast bullets that fast with accuracy wouldn't we all be doing it? Some claim such but actual proof is lacking. With PC and extreme HT'ing some come close with "useable" accuracy at close range. Others do well with PP'ing. To be honest with you, with a naked cast bullet lubed and GC'd, 2500 - 2600 fps with your cast bullet just isn't going to happen with a 10" twist barrel with any semblance of accuracy.

Now if you had a 14" twist barrel of 26 +/- inch length then you could get there.

Just because you can’t do it Larry doesn’t mean it can’t be done. I’ve shown this before but I’ll show it again. 30XCB bullet cast from 90/6/4 (Pb,Sb,Sn) water dropped 18bhn
Loaded in .308 Win. In a 1:10 twist factory 22” barrel at 2489fps. 10 shots at 100 yards.
226089226090

[Larry Gibson]

waco

Let's look at the OPs question;

My 308 is a 1in10 twist and I am curious if I can shoot cast with straight linotype at jacketed speeds...I am wondering if I can get 2500-2600 fps in lead boolits?

A 308W, including yours, shoots jacketed 165 gr bullets out of 22" barrels with 10" twists at 2700+ fps.

You proved, in your 500 yard shooting video, that your rifle and load holds, maybe 4 -5 moa with that load or a similar one. If you'd pay attention to the 2 fliers which you failed to count in that group you might understand why they are fliers. They are over the RPM threshold. Those 3 wider shots, in the 8 shot group you measured, are probably over the RPM threshold also. That's why your load wouldn't hold better that 4 moa at 500 yards. About 50% of the bullets went over the RPM threshold and flew off at a tangent to the line of flight, that could be clearly seen watching the bullet traces. The group you post also appears to have about 50% over the RPM threshold. Those fliers are telling you the truth even if you don't believe me. If you'd drop back to 2300 - 2350 fps to keep your bullets under the RPM Threshold your load might hold accuracy to 500 yards.

However, 2300 fps to your stated 2489 fps is still not "jacketed bullet velocities" for the 308W with 165 gr bullets or at 2500 to 2600 fps which is what the OP asked about.

I showed you, as I was actually trying to help you improve your long range accuracy, how I already was shooting less than 2 moa at 500 yards with a similar load using the 30 XCB, I posted the targets with the bullet holes in them. I also showed, by posting the groups, how I was shooting close to MOA at 600 yards with the same 30 XCB at 2900 fps.

I've also shot numerous 10 shot moa groups, or very close to it, at 2400 - 2500+ fps at 100 yards using a 10" twist. However, those loads would not maintain linear expansion of the group just as yours did not, i.e. they do not maintain accuracy. But as also shown, those same loads in a 12" twist do hold liner group expansion as the range increases and thus, do maintain accuracy. I've also posted on this forum numerous 10 shot groups shot at 2600 - 2700+ fps with the 30 XCB and a Lyman 311466 using a 14" twist .308W which hold close to moa accuracy at least to 500 yards.

As I stated to the OP; " 2500 - 2600 fps [the velocity range the OP asked about] with your cast bullet just isn't going to happen with a 10" twist barrel with any semblance of accuracy" .....and it isn't.

[waco]

I love how you can’t stand to be proven wrong. The pic of the 10 shot group above is a different load altogether from the one I used in my video.
If 2489fps isn’t close enough for you to being 2500fps as per the op’s request, well. I don’t know what to tell you.
It can be done. It has been done. I encourage others to try. Don’t let people that can’t do it tell you that you can’t.
Proof is in the pudding.

[waco]

And by they way. No body mentioned distance. You’re calling me out on my 500 yard video?
Let’s see your distance video Larry.
The OP wants to know if he can shoot cast in .308 at 2500fps. With a 10 twist barrel. The answer is yes. You can. Period.

[Larry Gibson]

waco

With my own 10" twist 308W I thought this 2434 fps load would be good. Several times it held around 1.5 - 1.6 moa at 100 yards. However, when tested at 200 and 300 yards those fliers out of the group would not hold 4 - 5 moa. Here is the pressure/velocity test. I trace the bullet holes onto the printout for record keeping.

226093

Dropping the charge 2 gr which lowered the velocity to 2313 fps and resulted in linear expansion of the groups at 200 and 300 yards. That's even with pushing the RPM up to 166,000+. However, at 500 yards the increased adverse affect from that higher RPM was telling as the group was opening to 2 moa +/-. Here is the pressure/velocity test of that load.

226092

Thus we see that even though the group (counting all 10 shot) may appear to be "accurate" at 100 yards it really may not be accurate at longer range. I suppose though if one just shot only out to 100 yards then that level of accuracy may be sufficient. None the less it still isn't the 2500 - 2600 fps the OP asked for.

This is the load I used in the 500 yard test you requested I do. This load at a tudge higher velocity held 2 moa 10 shot group at the 500 yard range. What is interesting is this load also had 3 fliers out of the group at 500 yards (the 2 shots that hit the right edge of the target frame and one high left. Obviously those 3 shots were over the RPM Threshold.

226094

[44Blam]

It looks like I have a quest. Tomorrow or Sunday I will go out to the range, break in my barrel, sight in my scope and iron sights, adjust the gas and etc.
I bought a couple boxes of Federal ammo, so it should give me a good idea of what the gun does with factory rounds. I think I might try to pick up a cheap chrono...

It seems like I should buy a little notebook for this adventure as it appears that it will be a bit of a windy road to shooting cast boolits with this gun - especially at higher velocities.

In the near term, I don't have anywhere near me that I can shoot beyond 100 yards. And I don't particularly like shooting from a rest. I like to stand and send... So my current goal is "good" accuracy which would be a group at 1" or so at 100 yards. I have done that with a little .223 I have that has a 1-7x scope shooting jacketed hand loads. So the start is not too much of a reach. I think I'll start a new thread on the quest. Assuming I can get past level 1: shoot 1 MOA groups with standard factory rounds...

[Tom W.]

I know that the Savage model 12 I had wouldn't shoot groups with cast at jacketed speeds. Nice patterns resembling a shotgun was more like it. With jacketed bullets I would hit targets out to 1000 yards, and anything 600 yards or closer
was easy. I gave up trying to speed up cast in that rifle.

A lot of what I shot was coww with nickel Babbitt added. That stuff is like 98% tin with some copper mixed in, no lead at all. OSHA wouldn't allow any. Cast pure it made some pretty but somewhat light boolits.

[popper]

Yes, you can and you don't need lino to do it. Add the Cu, lose the tin, WD. 4-5% Sb - 1/2%Cu heat treat from AR10 carbine does near MOA @ 200 from a makeshift bench. Approx. the same boolit you have, RNFPGC. I only did 3 shots, buddy was ranging it in and did ~ 10. Never shot the LR308 before but did pretty good. ~6" drop compared to Win hog razer round. Slower twist helps but it can be done in 1:10. I've chronied the load @ 2400+ in 16" and 2700+ in 24" upper.

[Larry Gibson]

And by they way. No body mentioned distance. You’re calling me out on my 500 yard video?
Let’s see your distance video Larry.
The OP wants to know if he can shoot cast in .308 at 2500fps. With a 10 twist barrel. The answer is yes. You can. Period.

waco

Not "calling you out" at all, just stating facts of what your video demonstrated. I don't do video and guess at what the results might show.....I shoot on paper to actually document what was done. Post 17 has the actual target (no guessing where the misses went because all the shots are on the target frame) shot at 500 yards. Actually, you "called me out" with "Just because you can’t do it Larry doesn’t mean it can’t be done" but that is neither here nor there.

Measurement of accuracy always has a distance component. If you're shooting at 100 yards and want to exclude 3 of the 10 shots then you've done well. I told the OP basically he could shoot cast bullets that fast and have "useable" accuracy if that's all he wanted. Lot's of claims are made by you and others of HV accuracy based on short range groups (50 or 100 yards). Some with 3 or 5 shot groups. If that's all you're shooting and that's all you want then fine. However, some of us do not exclude fliers and do consider "accuracy" to be that which is capable to the practical longest range of the bullet/cartridge.

Shooting one 10 shot group and excluding the 3 fliers may be acceptable "accuracy" to you. Show us 3 consecutive 10 shot groups at close to moa at that velocity with no fliers at 100 and at a longer range (even 200 yards) and I'll agree with you. Until then we'll be all interesting to know when you can put 11 shots (the 30 XCB at 2900 fps in the picture below) in 5.9" at 600 yards on a paper target with your 2400+ fps load w/o excluding fliers....... We'd even appreciate a 500 yard 10 shot group at 2 moa such as I did for you.

Not a "distance video, just a target shot at 600 yards with actual bullet holes......11 of them in 5.9"
226115

BTW, I helped design that 30 XCB bullet for HV shooting. Several of us have achieved excellent results with it in 10, 12, 14, 16, 17 and 18" twist .308Ws, 30x57 XCBs, 30x60 XCBs and 30-06. There are even a couple 15" twist rifles now being used with excellent actual HV results. Several others (one who also had input into the design) have left this forum because they did not listen to those of us who have had excellent success. They stuck to preconceived ideas of their own or others. They failed to keep and open mind and learn. They got frustrated and left and/or were banned. That they could not learn and change some of their ideas based on what was actually being accomplished and posted was really too bad.

You have met with good initial but limited success because you have started your 30 XCB 308W loading using some of the techniques pioneered by those of us who've had real success with shooting cast bullets at HV in both fast and slow twist barrels. We learned an understood the limitations of each. I know you post on another forum and are listening to those who've left this forum, that's fine. But understand your success is now as limited as theirs was/is unless you rethink some things they've told you that pan out only so far.

I know you don't believe I am trying to help you but I am. I'll suggest again you drop your velocity in your 10" twist .308W a bit and you will do much better, not only at 100 yards but also at longer range out to 500 yards. The fliers won't be there. You're not proving me wrong, you're trying to prove the facts you've posted and mentioned by me wrong. Excluding the 3 fliers out of your posted group does not make it an "accurate" load. Those flyers are telling you something is wrong.

You stated on another forum you would be shooting this new load at 500 yards but have yet to post the results. You've made other videos since then so the opportunity was there. Your "new" load perhaps did not do well such as 2 moa at 500 yards? If not, then perhaps there is some validity to what I'm trying to help you understand. If you haven't tried it yet then please do but you also might try an accurate load that does not give the flyers such as the 2300 fps load I've posted and used. The difference in results may surprise you.

What I am saying is you can learn from those 3 fliers, not by excluding them, but by understanding what caused them.....however, that is only if you want to learn...... Your mentors on another forum are telling you what they think you should be able to do. But ask yourself; did they actually post any HV results on this forum before they left? Have they even posted any on that forum showing they can actually do what they're telling you to do? No they haven't. Consider what I also told the OP to think about; If we could shoot cast bullets accurately at "jacketed bullet velocities" (the OP mentioned 2500 - 2600 fps) we would all be doing it. The point is we're not for good reason. To shoot 30 caliber cast bullets at "jacketed bullet velocities" accurately out of 10" twist 30 caliber rifles has been the Holy Grail of cast bullet shooters for more than a century. If it could be done it would have been done long ago as even adding Cu to a ternary alloy was well tried over 100 years ago. Yes, we can push up into 2300 fps and maintain accuracy in 10" twist 30 cals, you and I have easily demonstrated that.

[waco]

I am willing to bet that most guys here would be happy with 2 moa 10 shot groups at 100 yards using cast bullets at 2500fps from a out of the box 22" 10 twist barrel.
This was only one group. It was all the loaded rounds I had at the time. The two flyers could have easily been me.

I have not shot this load since the time of the above pic. I have not shot this load at 500 yet.

[Larry Gibson]

"I am willing to bet that most guys here would be happy with 2 moa 10 shot groups at 100 yards using cast bullets at 2500fps from a out of the box 22" 10 twist barrel."

Yes, waco, I couldn't agree with you more. I've actually stated numerous times that if only shooting out to 100 yards (many actually shoot game within that range) then push the cast bullet as fast as it will hold even 2 - 4 moa at 100 yards. That's entirely sufficient for "useable hunting accuracy" out to 100 yards. What I find humorous in your statement, though, is the 2 moa accuracy. Many years ago on this forum when I started the serious search for HV accuracy with a ternary cast bullet the objective was; maintain 10 shot accuracy of 2 moa with linear group expansion to 300 yards.

I was ballyhooed, mostly by those who've now left this forum or have been banned, that they could get "bughole" groups at atrociously claimed ranges......even a claim of 5/8" at over 3000 fps at something like 318 yards was made...... Even when I had proved the RPM Threshold was real and was getting 1 - 1.5 moa accuracy out to 300 yards at 2300 - 2350+ fps with 10" twist .308W and 30-06 rifles. I was posting actual results with 10 or at least 5 shot groups. The ballyhoers bwahahaha'd me because I wasn't shooting "bughole" groups. They made their claims yet posted nothing substantiated and even complained that 10 shot groups were "hard" to shoot......:roll: I continued to work on it and put my money where my mouth is conducting test after test for them, many at their request. They never liked the results as the results never verified their claims.

None the less the original accuracy criteria of 2 moa for a 10 shot group holding linear group expansion to 300 yards can be done. What we learned in all those years testing was what the proper design of the HV cast bullet should be, the NOE 30 XCB is the result. We also learned what powders worked the best, what lubes worked the best and what was needed to cast the best quality bullets for truly HV (2700 - 3000+ fps) accurate results. We learned numerous other things along the way. Yes, some parts of the RPM Threshold theory were changed/tweaked as we learned. The basic premise has remained the same though. In the intervening years after multiple tests through a variety of rifles using different cast bullet designs we have learned a whole lot more on how to push that threshold upward using ternary alloy bullets.

The results I showed you at 500 yards shooting 2 moa with the 30 XCB out of my 308W with a 10" twist are the end result of pushing the RPM Threshold upward. However, there is a finite threshold when a ternary alloy is used and you hit it as evidence by the bullets paths shown by their traces in your video. That was even with a bit slower velocity. Given that those fliers in your 2400+ fps group were not caused by you. They exceeded the RPM threshold just as did the fliers in the video. The RPM Threshold for a ternary alloy can be pushed a little harder by adding Cu in forming a quadra alloy as several members do. There are still limitations to that also which have been discussed at length in other threads. For example popper's 24" AR will do 2700+ fps with 165 jacketed bullets yet his "accurate" load with his quadra alloy still falls several hundred fps short of that.

So, yes, I do agree with you that for me also that out of a 10" twist 308W a HV 2 moa (10 shots) load at 100 yards is acceptable accuracy IF the linear expansion of the group remains consistent at least through 300 yards. But keep in mind that with slower twists it is much easier to shoot higher velocity yet because we can keep the RPM down under 140,000+/-. With a 14" twist .308W 1 - 1.5 moa accuracy is possible through 500 yards at 2600 - 2700 fps. Using the 30x60 XCB or the 30-06 2900+ fps is possible with moa accuracy to 600 yards. Here is a 20 shot 2900+ fps group I fired with my 30x60 XCB at 100 yards including foulers from a cold clean barrel. That is the load that the above 600 yard moa (5.9" group) was shot with so obviously it holds linear expansion to even 600 yards.

226127

Amazing high velocity with exceptional accuracy is indeed possible when we understand what is really occurring and what is really needed to make it happen. I recently made a trip to Montana and shot prairie dogs with this rifle. I was able to get a good % of hits (as good as I did with my 22-250 using Varmegeddon bullets) out to 450 - 500 yards. If it was a 2 moa accurate load there is no way I could have done that. I constantly amaze shooters at my local 300 yard range with the accuracy and velocity I get out of my .308W Palma rifle with 14" twist and my 30x60 XCB with 16" twist at 300 yards. Several forum members have shown up here also and shot them and were amazed. You are welcome to do the same anytime..... perhaps I'll get up that way?......:drinks:

[waco]

Well Larry we are not talking about 12 or 14 twist barrels. The OP has a 10 twist. So next time I get out, hopefully this coming weekend, Ill take my .308 and shoot some groups at 300 yards and share my results.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, the OP did inquire about a 10" twist. Looking forward to your 300 yard results.

[waco]

Just an update for LG. I did take my .308 out over the weekend. We were camping in Central Oregon. I could not find a good place to shoot from at 300 yards. I ended up shooting at 200 yards. The only spot we had was considerably uphill and was very unpleasant to shoot from. Five shot groups were nothing to write home about. 165gr 30XCB bullets at 2480fps in a 10 twist 22" stock Rem. 700 3.5"
Sub 2 MOA but still blah. I'll try and get to our normal spot when the fire danger gets down a bit, next month or so.
I'll keep you posted.

[44Blam]

I took my new .308 out last weekend for a little while to sort out the sights, scope, gas, etc.

It shoots pretty well. I shot two boxes of Federal ammo with the sierra match bullets. It was weird shooting store bought bullets, but I kind of wanted a bit of a baseline.

I sighted in and adjusted gas, etc at 50 yards and then shot these groups at 100 yards.

In the next couple weeks, I will work on some loads for some of my cast boolits and try it out. I think I'll start out with some slower loads and work up in different powders and just take notes on what works and what doesn't.

226600

[Shopdog]

44Blam,don't listen to the naysayers and their self proclaimed expertness.2500 is doable pretty durn easy.... from there the mountain starts to get a bit steep.My suggestion is to test it for yourself and try to watch the terminal ballistics once you get around 2200 and up.

Overall gun setup starts to almost pass bullet requirements when the velocity reaches a certain point...... where that point is,can be entirely different for each rig. Bedding,balance,scopes,bench and field techniques all require more attention. So,in a lot of ways,and this is where the naysayers completely drop the ball..... going after more velocity with cast raises your whole program so to speak. Further,on skinny factory barrels my suggestion is 3 shot groups.Once in awhile there will be a special factory sporter brrl that can suffer through 5 or more shot groups but don't bet on it. 3 shots cold bore,day in day out is a hunting rig to be proud of.

[44Blam]

44Blam,don't listen to the naysayers and their self proclaimed expertness.2500 is doable pretty durn easy.... from there the mountain starts to get a bit steep.My suggestion is to test it for yourself and try to watch the terminal ballistics once you get around 2200 and up.

Overall gun setup starts to almost pass bullet requirements when the velocity reaches a certain point...... where that point is,can be entirely different for each rig. Bedding,balance,scopes,bench and field techniques all require more attention. So,in a lot of ways,and this is where the naysayers completely drop the ball..... going after more velocity with cast raises your whole program so to speak. Further,on skinny factory barrels my suggestion is 3 shot groups.Once in awhile there will be a special factory sporter brrl that can suffer through 5 or more shot groups but don't bet on it. 3 shots cold bore,day in day out is a hunting rig to be proud of.
This may be the next hurdle - I really like to shoot standing... I mostly shoot big bore guns, so you can't really bench rest shoot them when your shooting full house rounds...
So, the .308 is a new beast.
The shots above were at a bench, with factory ammo... That got me all out of sorts.
I'll try some loads from the bench for the next few times before I can get a load I like...

[Shopdog]

If you get a chance.... try shooting off the top of a 4' step ladder.

I like Werner brand. They're a great size to have around shop and home,anyway.

It needs to be a good one,not your Gdads wore out WWII era rickety wooden version,Haha. Anyway, throw a folded towel up on top and go to town.This is what I used to use for testing hunting rigs balance. Works fantastic when your buddy comes over."Hey,can you do me a favor and shoot this at that beer can"? Just put the rig in their hand,show them the ladder.... and see what they can do.

I have a 243 that was giving me some trouble with first shot,cold bore accuracy. It wasn't till getting it off a bench,onto the ladder and letting several friends shooting at paper to realize it was me and that particular rigs "bag requirements ".... cleared it right up.

[Bama]

As you go up in speed you may find one key is copper addition to make bullet stay together. It seems to boost the max workable speed somewhat. On the ar base rifles pay attention to the nose shape. Feed ramps play havoc with long pointy bullets and makes accuracy very unreliable.

[Harter66]

I had a Savage 110 308 22" 1-12 twist . I could shoot cheap surplus or quality from the big 3 reliably into 2" and select jacketed loads pushing 2800 fps 150s into .75 on demand with 5 shots regular as sunrise . However if a bullet , even a round nose shorter than the 150s , over 175 gr was introduced 4-6" became good groups , and it went downhill from there .
Cast , forget it . .......sort of . I did shoot a bunch of 123 gr gas checked bullets and they shot well . Then I got a 175 paper patched TC to shoot 2" well then I bought the 301618 , 301-172 sp NOE version , and got under 2" 5 shot reliable groups . I'd like to have tried the 310-165 FN (XCB) in it . It should have been a match made in heaven . 2300 was about the apex for 172 gr bullet in paper patched . 2100 was about the limit in 1-10 twist 30 cal .
Qualifiers .
I was using a copper in solution alloy .
I was not using alloys greater than an 18 BHN .
The copper in solution I believe made the bullet behave more like a 22-24 bhn .

Observations.

Copper can be gathered in to solution with tin .
Sorted range scrape with large a portion of plated bullets will hold about .55% in a 1-20 level alloy . .25% in a 75/25 alloy WW/1-20+copper is what I was shooting .

Twist and by association rev is a real thing and has a tremendous affect on shooting , even jacketed . I have had 22 cal twists from 1-12 to 1-8 and applied cast bullets from 1 pour lot to them from 1 lot of powder and primers and sub 1" groups were there at 2624 fps in the 1-12 but simply would not happen above 2050 fps in the 1-8 .
1800 is the apex with an 8.5 " 30 cal twist about 2100 in a 10 and 2300 in a 12 all else being equal .
Now I'm sure that target only 30+bhn lino type alloys will move that number up maybe 200-250 fps in a 30 cal but you eventually run out of pressure/alloy strength . So then you need a better check then a stronger alloy and pretty soon you're you're shooting some exotic 850° zinc/babbitt super alloy with bronze checks and it's almost a cast X bullet and now you're off chasing a high BC bullet and you've got $8,000 in THE bullet for your rifle that is invalid because you shot the barrel to death . So now you start back in the middle with a new $400 barrel fitted ..........

Do it the short way .
Weigh lot brass of one head stamp.
Prep it all to match .
Find the heaviest bullet it'll shoot .
Make sure it'll fit in the throat .
Cast it out of WW .
Check it with whatever checks you have .
Lube it with whatever it takes to clear the muzzle .
Shoot it as fast as it'll go with the lowest pressure , longest curve you can .
Wear out the barrel shooting for relaxed fun , groceries and the clang on steel .

This is supposed to be shoot more for less .

[44Blam]

I had a Savage 110 308 22" 1-12 twist . I could shoot cheap surplus or quality from the big 3 reliably into 2" and select jacketed loads pushing 2800 fps 150s into .75 on demand with 5 shots regular as sunrise . However if a bullet , even a round nose shorter than the 150s , over 175 gr was introduced 4-6" became good groups , and it went downhill from there .
Cast , forget it . .......sort of . I did shoot a bunch of 123 gr gas checked bullets and they shot well . Then I got a 175 paper patched TC to shoot 2" well then I bought the 301618 , 301-172 sp NOE version , and got under 2" 5 shot reliable groups . I'd like to have tried the 310-165 FN (XCB) in it . It should have been a match made in heaven . 2300 was about the apex for 172 gr bullet in paper patched . 2100 was about the limit in 1-10 twist 30 cal .
Qualifiers .
I was using a copper in solution alloy .
I was not using alloys greater than an 18 BHN .
The copper in solution I believe made the bullet behave more like a 22-24 bhn .

Observations.

Copper can be gathered in to solution with tin .
Sorted range scrape with large a portion of plated bullets will hold about .55% in a 1-20 level alloy . .25% in a 75/25 alloy WW/1-20+copper is what I was shooting .

Twist and by association rev is a real thing and has a tremendous affect on shooting , even jacketed . I have had 22 cal twists from 1-12 to 1-8 and applied cast bullets from 1 pour lot to them from 1 lot of powder and primers and sub 1" groups were there at 2624 fps in the 1-12 but simply would not happen above 2050 fps in the 1-8 .
1800 is the apex with an 8.5 " 30 cal twist about 2100 in a 10 and 2300 in a 12 all else being equal .
Now I'm sure that target only 30+bhn lino type alloys will move that number up maybe 200-250 fps in a 30 cal but you eventually run out of pressure/alloy strength . So then you need a better check then a stronger alloy and pretty soon you're you're shooting some exotic 850° zinc/babbitt super alloy with bronze checks and it's almost a cast X bullet and now you're off chasing a high BC bullet and you've got $8,000 in THE bullet for your rifle that is invalid because you shot the barrel to death . So now you start back in the middle with a new $400 barrel fitted ..........

Do it the short way .
Weigh lot brass of one head stamp.
Prep it all to match .
Find the heaviest bullet it'll shoot .
Make sure it'll fit in the throat .
Cast it out of WW .
Check it with whatever checks you have .
Lube it with whatever it takes to clear the muzzle .
Shoot it as fast as it'll go with the lowest pressure , longest curve you can .
Wear out the barrel shooting for relaxed fun , groceries and the clang on steel .

This is supposed to be shoot more for less .

Excellent advice.

[44Blam]

I had a Savage 110 308 22" 1-12 twist . I could shoot cheap surplus or quality from the big 3 reliably into 2" and select jacketed loads pushing 2800 fps 150s into .75 on demand with 5 shots regular as sunrise . However if a bullet , even a round nose shorter than the 150s , over 175 gr was introduced 4-6" became good groups , and it went downhill from there .
Cast , forget it . .......sort of . I did shoot a bunch of 123 gr gas checked bullets and they shot well . Then I got a 175 paper patched TC to shoot 2" well then I bought the 301618 , 301-172 sp NOE version , and got under 2" 5 shot reliable groups . I'd like to have tried the 310-165 FN (XCB) in it . It should have been a match made in heaven . 2300 was about the apex for 172 gr bullet in paper patched . 2100 was about the limit in 1-10 twist 30 cal .
Qualifiers .
I was using a copper in solution alloy .
I was not using alloys greater than an 18 BHN .
The copper in solution I believe made the bullet behave more like a 22-24 bhn .

Observations.

Copper can be gathered in to solution with tin .
Sorted range scrape with large a portion of plated bullets will hold about .55% in a 1-20 level alloy . .25% in a 75/25 alloy WW/1-20+copper is what I was shooting .

Twist and by association rev is a real thing and has a tremendous affect on shooting , even jacketed . I have had 22 cal twists from 1-12 to 1-8 and applied cast bullets from 1 pour lot to them from 1 lot of powder and primers and sub 1" groups were there at 2624 fps in the 1-12 but simply would not happen above 2050 fps in the 1-8 .
1800 is the apex with an 8.5 " 30 cal twist about 2100 in a 10 and 2300 in a 12 all else being equal .
Now I'm sure that target only 30+bhn lino type alloys will move that number up maybe 200-250 fps in a 30 cal but you eventually run out of pressure/alloy strength . So then you need a better check then a stronger alloy and pretty soon you're you're shooting some exotic 850° zinc/babbitt super alloy with bronze checks and it's almost a cast X bullet and now you're off chasing a high BC bullet and you've got $8,000 in THE bullet for your rifle that is invalid because you shot the barrel to death . So now you start back in the middle with a new $400 barrel fitted ..........

Do it the short way .
Weigh lot brass of one head stamp.
Prep it all to match .
Find the heaviest bullet it'll shoot .
Make sure it'll fit in the throat .
Cast it out of WW .
Check it with whatever checks you have .
Lube it with whatever it takes to clear the muzzle .
Shoot it as fast as it'll go with the lowest pressure , longest curve you can .
Wear out the barrel shooting for relaxed fun , groceries and the clang on steel .

This is supposed to be shoot more for less .

The cool thing is, if I can find a nice cast round/load - that barrel will last a REALLY long time. ;) I am positive that I can find a nice balance. Maybe it only goes 1800 or 2200 or 2500 fps... But, then I can shoot .308 for like $0.20 or $0.25 instead of $1.20 a round.

[John McCorkle]

Excellent advice.Ha bingo

Sent from my Moto G Play using Tapatalk

[Bigslug]

44Blam,

I think the question you should be pondering most deeply is "What am I REALLY trying to accomplish here?"

It seems like your goal is to have a usable 100 yard load for offhand practice. This is not a terribly difficult thing to achieve, and, due to the miracles of varied trajectories it's possible that it will hit close to the sights at that distance, even when the sights are set at 200 or so yards for your jacketed hunting loads. You certainly don't need to stretch the envelope for this, and loads in the 2000 fps bracket are certainly do-able with a 1-10 twist using harder alloys such as heat-treated wheelweight.

As for accuracy requirements in an offhand load: yes it's nice if the load and the gun can shoot sub-MOA, but is it patently necessary? My Barnes solid copper hunting load does; my 175 grain NOE/Ranch Dog cast gas check practice loads are more like 2-3 MOA. . .which will annihilate my deer vital surrogate targets (milk jugs) at 100 yards all day long. The Benchrest quality stuff simply isn't needed for that role.

It's possibly to go DEEP down a rabbit hole chasing things that you really don't need for your chosen application. I spent a lot of time down there before I decided that I'd rather spend my time shooting. You don't need a Ferrari to drive 20 mph on the 405 at rush hour. KEEP IT REAL!

[Harter66]

I will add that I have had several cartridges that shoot cast as well as jacketed and at the same or very nearly the same speeds . I shot a 30-30 that cast was well into top jacketed speeds . I shot a 32 Rem that actually ran faster than top jacketed speeds at jacketed start loads . It's not restricted to low speed pumpkin rollers either . A 62 gr bullet is right in the heart of jacketed speeds at 2600 fps in a 222 and a 250 out of a 358 Win at 2100 fps isn't really a slowpoke . The 6.8 SPCII running a 130 gr 2050 fps wouldn't get me to my minimum energy however the change to a rifle gas 20" 5R barrel from a carbine 16" made all the difference . The 2050 load goes 2120 with H322 and cycles both actions no hiccups , the 4198 load is more accurate and runs 2260fps and runs the action in the ARP 20" that it wouldn't run because the chamber pressures stay to high to long in the carbine gas . Now the 6.8 is into jacketed speeds , and the load reaches minimum big game energy requirements .

To hit the jacketed speeds that I dip into so I can say I shoot cast at jacketed speeds I use a forula that is something like the heaviest bullet , slowest powder , as long as will fit and come back out like it went in , in an alloy that will hold the pressure .
Plain base WW will hold 30kpsi with a check it'll hold 40 . With some tin an copper in solution with a check it'll hold 45 , 48 in a good tight smooth barrel .
Twist will kill a perfect load .
It takes time and trigger work and fussing with stuff to get the results.
It took me 10 yr to find the formula that clicks , is repeatable , and makes sense to me .

If it leads at the breach it's too small , hard or deformed . Case or throat .
If it leads at the muzzle you need a different or more lube .
If it leads anywhere else but is clean at the breach and muzzle it's a barrel defect . Like a lump from the barrel stamp , dove tails , or sight screws .
Only change one thing at a time . A primer change can close a group 2" . A neck sizing change can close a group 2" and stop zone leading .......if you do both which one did you really want ? I may have been down that road .........

Leading and antimony wash are not the same thing and you can shoot for a long long time with antimony wash and a grey haze in the barrel .

If it comes clean with a wet brush and pactches it ain't leading .

You'll figure it out .

[44Blam]

So, I now have a chronograph and some shiny new boolits to start my testing.
I think I'll have some time to make it out to the range in the next few weeks.

I chose Red for my powder coat -- because everyone knows that red boolits are faster.
228122

[sutherpride59]

Honestly if you can’t tell from everyone’s post it’s a lot more work than it is really worth to push a cast bullet that fast with good accuracy. Wait for you favorite bullet to go on sale at an online site some time during the year and buy a few boxes and be happy lol. I doubt you are taking 400-500 deer a year so it just isn’t worth the time spent to get cast to the level you want. The c-word exists for a reason.