Filler in 45/70

[Yooper003]

I placed this over in hunting forum & got a few answers but I guess I am too dumb to understand. So I will ask it as plain as I can. Should I use a filler in my cast boolit loads for 45/70' when using Unique or Red Dot power? If you would recommend using a filler, what kind & how do you use it?

[webfoot10]

Just put a small piece of toilet paper or a pinch of dracon pillow
stuffing on top of powder, just enough to hold the powder down
on the primer. It's just to keep the powder from spreading out
on the bottom of the case and maybe causing a SEE in the case
upon firing. I've shot 45/70 without filler, but I seem to get better
groups with filler. If you use the toilet paper you will have a bit of
confetti upon firing, won't hurt a thing. So load up and have fun.
webfoot10

[GregLaROCHE]

I don’t use any filler with my .45-70 rounds. I only shoot 400 and 500 grain boolits. If you’re shooting 300 grains it could leave you with that much more space. Someone once told me to use magnum primers when not all of my powder was burning. I never tried it, because I solved the problem by crimping tighter.

Good luck! The .45-70 has always been a fun round for me to shoot. I also consider it one of the easier rounds to load.

[Tatume]

I neither use nor recommend fillers. Nor do I use Red Dot. Unique will do fine without fillers.

[Nobade]

No fillers with easily ignited high nitro powder or you'll be sorry. Plus those two light off so easy there's nothing to be gained by doing so.

[webfoot10]

I neither use nor recommend fillers. Nor do I use Red Dot. Unique will do fine without fillers.

Watched a guy shoot a trapdoor carbine with 11grs Unique powder. Dropped the loaded
round in and fired. The powder moved down on the bullet in the case when tipped down
for loading, upon firing blew the breech block out of the gun. With the 400 gr paper patched
bullet being oversize and crimped, he had created a bore obstruction, the charge upon firing
blew out the case and the breechblock. You gotta keep the powder on the primer.

[Tom W.]

Can't say about a 45/70, but when shooting mouse fart loads in my 30/30 or 30-06 w/ Red Dot or Bullseye I won't use a filler.

[Tatume]

Watched a guy shoot a trapdoor carbine with 11grs Unique powder. Dropped the loaded round in and fired. The powder moved down on the bullet in the case when tipped down for loading, upon firing blew the breech block out of the gun. With the 400 gr paper patched bullet being oversize and crimped, he had created a bore obstruction, the charge upon firing blew out the case and the breechblock. You gotta keep the powder on the primer.

Couldn't have been anything else huh?

[webfoot10]

Couldn't have been anything else huh?

What do you think would have caused it? Wasn't a double charge as he weights
all his loads, and he was using new winchester brass. Had to be the oversize
bullets and the heavy crimp. I use the same load, but with a filler and I use a
taper crimp. His trapdoor was the H&R repro so I don't think it was any problem
with the gun. His gun fired my loads just fine, Didn't have any problems till he used
his loads, The only differance was the filler and the heavy crimp. This guy is stickler
for accurate reloading. So what do you think caused the blow up?

[Nobade]

"Oversized paper patched bullet and crimped". It really sounds like he doesn't know what he's doing.

[gwpercle]

Couldn't have been anything else huh?

Certainly not a double charge of powder...no way that can happen .

It happens a lot easier than you think and most will swear it's the magical "detonation" effect of the powder not being against the primer.

Better method is tip the gun up just before firing, powder is near primer and no need for a filler.
Gary

[dondiego]

You can easily double charge a case even with a couple of meticulously weighed charges. Use a flashlight or a dowel with a witness mark.

[Tatume]

Just put a small piece of toilet paper or a pinch of dracon pillow stuffing on top of powder, just enough to hold the powder down on the primer.

This is likely to cause a ringed chamber.

[1Hawkeye]

Filler can cause a ringed chamber in a .45-70 and you don't need it when using unique. As for the H&R trapdoor coming open when fired with unique it could have been one of the bad ones. A friend of mind who had a shop warned me about them back in the day. It seems H&R had some qc issues with the trapdoors back then such as undersized bores and opening when fired.

[Larry Gibson]

My comments are posted on the thread OP posted on the Hunting Forum.

[scattershot]

I use a tuft of Dacron. About a 1” square, fluffed up and lightly inserted with a pencil or something similar.

[webfoot10]

I use a tuft of Dacron. About a 1” square, fluffed up and lightly inserted with a pencil or something similar.

That's all I do when loading the 45/70 with Unique. The guy that had his gun blow up
only loads with the Lee powder dippers and loads one case at a time, seating the
bullet and crimping, before going to the next case. Been loading for 50 yrs. So I guess
he knows what he's doing. The loaded cases fit the chamber of his rifle fine, so bullets
were not to big. The H&R trapdoor had an 1888 breechblock installed because of the
breech coming open on the original H&R's both rifle and carbines. I still think he had
the bullets crimped too tight. He also slugged the barrel dia at .458 and patched 2 thou
over so I don't think that was the problem. Everybody has their opinion on what happened,
Guess we will never know for sure.

[44Blam]

I am off topic here, but seems like just loading normal rifle powder like varget will keep you from blowing up your gun because it fills the case before you hit a max charge. Even something like 4198 or 4895 pretty much fill up a case and can be backed down enough to not knock out your fillings but still fill the case pretty full. And then if you want to shoot lighter rounds, trailboss will fill the case and will be very mild... Then you don't have to worry about SEEs or ring around the chamber or any of the other craziness that can happen.

[Nobade]

I am off topic here, but seems like just loading normal rifle powder like varget will keep you from blowing up your gun because it fills the case before you hit a max charge. Even something like 4198 or 4895 pretty much fill up a case and can be backed down enough to not knock out your fillings but still fill the case pretty full. And then if you want to shoot lighter rounds, trailboss will fill the case and will be very mild... Then you don't have to worry about SEEs or ring around the chamber or any of the other craziness that can happen.Yeah there is that...but it makes too much sense.

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, it does "make sense"......on paper.....

However, in reality the medium burners like Varget and H4895 and even H4198 when loaded down to level1 & 2 velocities with 400 gr bullets and lighter still leave too much empty space under the bullet. Those powders, w/o a Dacron filler, do no burn efficiently and leave a lot of debris in the action.....not to mention that accuracy sucks unless care is take to position the powder for each shot......even then that sometimes doesn't work.

Trailboss is an alternative for lighter loads but the OP asked about using a filler with Red Dot or Unique. MY answer is no with Red Dot and sometimes with Unique. It is explained in my answer on the Hunting Forum (same thread question) and in the Sticky noted there.

[GregLaROCHE]

I had that same problem of not burning all powder and finding debris in the barrel, when using Vectan Tu 3000. I solved the problem by crimping tighter. Never used filler.

[Yooper003]

It reads like most do not use a filler, some maybe because it is just easier not too & they never had a problem. I fit that group. I brought this filler deal up again as I am looking for more accuracy from my cast boolit loads,& so far I get the best with light loads, probably the best with Red Dot, next beast with Unique, the answer of just fill the case up doesn't work for me. All the research Larry Gibson has done on fillers has me thinking I should at least try it. As I say, it is about getting the best accuracy I can with cast bullets. I get good accuracy with jacketed bullets at max.loads

[Walter Laich]

being the old man out I use fillers for my 45-70 in Red Dot mouse fart loads

I went to Home Depot and got some round 1/2" foam bscker rod (it's used to fill spaces when you install new doors or windows) and cut a 1/8" disk or so. after the powder, I push it in then seat the bullet. with this method hard to overcharge--but anything is possible for some folks.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/M-D-Building-Products-1-2-in-x-20-ft-Caulk-Backer-Rod-71480/202066515

gives no recoil and I like the delay time from firing till it hits the targets but then I also think broccoli is not for human comsumption.

using 292 gr bullets

[Larry Gibson]

Let me reiterate the OP's question; "Should I use a filler in my cast boolit loads for 45/70' when using Unique or Red Dot power? If you would recommend using a filler, what kind & how do you use it?"

[GregLaROCHE]

You know I’ve heard of people topping of a charge with cream of wheat. I’m not recommending it. Just letting you know what could be one of your options.

[Yooper003]

I went shopping today for Dacron fiber fill. None of the poly fill said Dacron,as close as I can find out Dacron is a trade name for polyester fiber. So guess that will work but I came back a read the posts & every one specifically says Dacron. Have not bought any yet.

[JSnover]

All the research Larry Gibson has done on fillers has me thinking I should at least try it. As I say, it is about getting the best accuracy I can with cast bullets.
I've done it with other powders and got fine results. Fillers used properly are as safe as anything else we shoot.

[Hamish]

I placed this over in hunting forum & got a few answers but I guess I am too dumb to understand. So I will ask it as plain as I can. Should I use a filler in my cast boolit loads for 45/70' when using Unique or Red Dot power? If you would recommend using a filler, what kind & how do you use it?

"Should" you use a filler? No. Can you? Yes. Although I see no need of it with Unique. Everything I've tried with it in 45-70 seems to do just fine,,,,,,,

[Larry Gibson]

I went shopping today for Dacron fiber fill. None of the poly fill said Dacron,as close as I can find out Dacron is a trade name for polyester fiber. So guess that will work but I came back a read the posts & every one specifically says Dacron. Have not bought any yet.

Yes "Dacron" is a trade name for Polyester fill. In sew shops/departments or fabric stores you can get it in bulk for "fill" or in sheets of various thickness as "batting". I prefer to use the batting sheets as I cut them into strips and cut into chunks of the size needed.

As I mentioned before though, a Dacron filler is beneficial in the 45-70 in many circumstances but I would not consider using a Dacron filler with the 2 fast burning powders you mention.

[303Guy]

While Dacron is not the only brand of polyester fibre, Dacron has the desired fineness. As long as it's as fine, it's good to go.

[Chill Wills]

Watched a guy shoot a trapdoor carbine with 11grs Unique powder. Dropped the loaded
round in and fired. The powder moved down on the bullet in the case when tipped down
for loading, upon firing blew the breech block out of the gun. With the 400 gr paper patched
bullet being oversize and crimped, he had created a bore obstruction, the charge upon firing
blew out the case and the breechblock. You gotta keep the powder on the primer.

Hmmm. That is the exactly how chambers are rung on demand in tests reported in Charlie Dell's book. I can't say either way. I have not done the test so no data.
Got any data?
-CW

[UKShootist]

me, from reading this thread at least, that not using a filler might, I repeat might, sacrifice some accuracy. OTOH, using a filler might, I repeat might, ring your chamber. No contest for me. No filler it is.

[webfoot10]

Hmmm. That is the exactly how chambers are rung on demand in tests reported in Charlie Dell's book. I can't say either way. I have not done the test so no data.
Got any data?
-CW

The chamber on the trapdoor wasn't rung. The bullet was just starting into the rifling
when the case either blew out or the primer blew out. I never seen the case, but did
see the bullet. The barrel and chamber looked fine. In fact he replaced the breech
block and has it shooting again. Still think it was a pressure spike when the powder
went off laying on the rear of the bullet. Who knows the case might have been bad.
I use the dacron or a bit of toilet paper over the powder and have never had an issue.
The filler just blows out the barrel as confetti. It's stupid things like this that cannot
be explained that will get you.

[Chill Wills]

Webfoot10 writes:
"The chamber on the trapdoor wasn't rung."


Regardless, if the pressure creates a chamber ring in 4140 steel or takes an old rifle apart, the point is the same.

If you are interested, Charlie Dell's book details testing and outlines the conditions. I don't know if it is the last word on powder position or fillers, however it is real data and not just waving one's arms around and talking.

-CW

[Larry Gibson]

Ah, as usual, with the topic of using a filler properly....the sky is falling and we must tell the king..........

The PROPER use of a filler is not always necessary, needed or beneficial. With the specifics mentioned by the OP a proper filler is not necessary, needed and probably wouldn't be beneficial. However, in many other instances with other powder, cast bullet combinations a proper Dacron filler will be necessary and needed for consistent ignition and accuracy, the benefit of which will be much better accuracy.

Like most anything we do in reloading the improper use of a filler may result in mishap. So, like the things we've learned to do properly in reloading to avoid mishap using a filler properly can easily be done with the proper use of a filler. The proper use of a filler is not dangerous to gun or shooter.

Ever ponder what the function of the collapsible part of base of that plastic wad between the over powder part and the shot cup part is in a 12 ga shotgun shell? Pure and simple it is a filler. That collapsible part is there to fill the space between the over powder part and the shot because modern smokeless powders do not occupy the same volume that BP does for which the 12 ga shotgun shell was originally designed to use. Also consider there is a larger collapsible part (i.e. a filler) used in wads for smaller shot weights than larger shot weights. The smaller shot weight shells also use a smaller charge of faster burning powder and thus require a longer/larger "filler" section......same principle as with a Dacron filler (or other proper filler)in the 45-70 or any other cartridge. So how may 12 ga shot shells with such wads having "filler" sections are shot every year w/o mishap?

Is the sky really falling....or is that the emperor has no clothes.......

[beemer]

I have been working with my Marlin 1895 off and on this summer. The rifle was bought new about 16-17 years ago. I worked up a load using the Lyman 457643 that was designed for lever action rifles. Ended up with 26 grs of AA5744 and a filler, shot pretty good and was about 1300-1350 fps. Things got in the way and I didn't fool much with it for a good many years, now the load that was fun isn't any longer. Can't see the sights so good either so it wears a scope now.

While trying to find a softer recoiling load I tried Unique, Trail Boss and a couple of other faster powders. I tried Unique with and without a filler, none of them shot very well and the filler made no difference. Also tried the Lee 340 but my rifle wanted nothing to do with it, will work with is some more.

AA55744 and 4198 left a lot of unburned powder at the level I am using and any thing slower would have been worse. I am now shooting 16 grs of 2400 with the 400 grn. boolit and a .6 grn. dacron filler. The load is a touch over 1000 fps and holds groups around 1 3/4" at 100 yds. and I am still fooling with it. Loads with 2400 didn't shoot very well without fillers.

Larry, the comparison to the shotgun shells makes perfect sense to me. These big black powder rounds were not designed for smokeless nor the high velocity rounds for lead so we have to adapt. It is not always as simple as throwing in a filler or more slow burning powder.

The 1895 is a nice rifle but looking back I would choose a different caliber, something that doesn't have the recoil. I seem to be enjoying my 30-30 even more these days. Just put an old Weaver V8 on an old 336A, looks kinda cool.

Dave

[Chill Wills]

Ah, as usual, with the topic of using a filler properly....the sky is falling and we must tell the king..........


Is the sky really falling....or is that the emperor has no clothes.......

I doubt the topic will ever go away. This kind of non-information has a life all their own, maybe in the same way non-facts fill the political world at every level.. Another example is the same way you will hear, black powder is corrosive, despite the facts.

The best kind of information is data based on tests and can be cited.

For what it is worth, I use Dacron in many applications to good effect and floral foam for cases that are to be breach seated. I stopped using Dacron with Unique.

-CW

[Larry Gibson]

"The best kind of information is data based on tests and can be cited. "

That it is.......here is just such a "cited" example;

Targets shot at 100 yards using H&R Officer's Model with M1879 rear sight. Load was 35 gr IMR3031 under a 413 commercial cast bullet. 1st w/o a Dacron filler and the second with the Dacron filler.

226007

Above target is w/o the Dacron filler. The 5 shots were loaded w/o any effort at "positioning the powder". Note the 10.5" vertical string from the 5th shot near the top to one shot which went 1/2" off the bottom of the paper. The average velocity was 941 fps with an ES of 314 fps. There was close to a 9,000 psi ES for the 5 shots from 12,900 psi to 20,200 psi.

I then shot an additional 4 shots elevating the muzzle to "position" the powder. They are grouped at 3 o'clock in the bull. The average velocity was 1203 fps with an ES of 71 fps. The pi averaged 18,400 with and ES of 3,600 fps.

226008

The above target is with the same load except a 3/4 - 1 gr Dacron filler was used. The cartridges were chambered and shot with no attempt to "position" the powder as it was necessary. The average velocity was 1230 fps with an ES of 51 fps. The psi average was 19,100 with and ES of 1,200 psi.

The targets and data speak for themselves.

[Tatume]

Ever ponder what the function of the collapsible part of base of that plastic wad between the over powder part and the shot cup part is in a 12 ga shotgun shell?

The primary purpose is to position the top of the shot column so a correct crimp may be applied. If the top of the shot column is too high, a crimp cannot be applied, and if it is too low the crimp will collapse into the casing.

A secondary purpose is to cushion the shot column so the pellets are not deformed.

[Larry Gibson]

The primary purpose is to position the top of the shot column so a correct crimp may be applied. If the top of the shot column is too high, a crimp cannot be applied, and if it is too low the crimp will collapse into the casing.

A secondary purpose is to cushion the shot column so the pellets are not deformed.

And it "fills" the space between powder and shot.........before the advent of the plastic one piece wad there would have been cards and fiber wads used as a filler between the powder and shot......

[flint45]

I would and do use filler in .45-70 and others better acc. 40 plus years of trying every thing has proved it to me. Tuff of dacron is all I use 5 different .45-70s no ringed chambers and thousands of rounds later.

[JimB..]

I don’t use a filler but I’m pretty new to the caliber, and if I want a delicate load I switch to 44mag or 357mag rather than trying to load super light in the 45/70. Just look a it as a reason to buy another gun.

[muskeg13]

I only tried a dacron filler once. Second shot in a straight walled .405 Win single shot falling block with a very thick Douglas barrel ringed it at the case neck. NEVER AGAIN! Luckily the ringed portion wasn't bad enough to completely ruin the barrel, but...if I don't absolutely need to use a filler, I won't. Use Black Powder, Pyrodex, TrailBoss, 5744 or Unique and forget the filler.

[Larry Gibson]

Complete load data?

Powder?

Charge weight?

Bullet?

How much Dacron?

Used as filler or wad?

Breach seated bullet?

[flint45]

If you guys are ringing your barrels your doing something wrong.There is no way on earth a light tuff of dacron polyester will ever ring a barrel.Go ahead and drag me over the coals for saying it I dont care

[Larry Gibson]

Fljnt45

You are correct. That's why I asked muskeg13 for more complete information.

[303Guy]

I haven't ringed a barrel but I have expanded case necks into rust pit in the chamber with light boolit subsonic loads. Full power loads with heavy boolits did not do that in the same rifle. I WAS using a filler but not dacron. The dacron does nothing at all. The funny thing is, with the filler, the primer showed hardly any pressure at all - no different to using dacron. (You can gauge pressure with some primer brands - not get a pressure value, just a relative comparison).

I read somewhere of someone finding that with a small charge of fast powder, firing the gun straight down, caused pressure spikes. I don't know who or where and haven't come across that again

[Strtspdlx]

This is likely to cause a ringed chamber.


winner winner chicken dinner!!!

[Strtspdlx]

My comments are posted on the thread OP posted on the Hunting Forum.

to the op, I have researched far and wide on this subject and everything I have come across larry has given great advice that has worked, so without even reading what he wrote I would have to say reread it until you understand it if it isn't sinking in, or if your like some people I know, and you aren't getting the answer you desire, proceed at your own risk. I will say fillers and fast burning powders shouldn't be mixed. to my knowledge fillers are intended to keep hard to ignite slow burning powders against or near the primer to aid in an even burn and even flame front. some correct me if I'm wrong I cant find my notebook.