Caliber wars and other silly things

[John McCorkle]

I have a question for the forum, what is up with caliber wars?!

I guess you could throw in any number of highly opinionated topics here and still draw a similar parallel (Ford vs Chevy, brand of boots, power tools, or any other shade or variety of choice any given person can make)

I have seen a multitude of arguments backed by online data or point by point reasons caliber "x" won't work at all but claiber "y" is the best thing ever....and honestly I'm tempted to throw my opinon in often as well but have to bring myself back to sanity and see there is literally no benefit in it at all....*disclaimer*...this post is in no way an invitation for caliber war argument.

My question is why do we do this? I have heard guys argue for the humane treatment of game we are hunting but they also treat their pets and livestock absolutely horribly...doesn't seem to be an honest reason for one choice over another when actions clearly contradict.

Almost unilaterally...any gun forum has a caliber war over something...and I'm not talking about discussion or disagreement but full on argument with personal feelings and identity attached. Names and insults and words I wouldn't want my mother to hear....but why?

I dunno if this is as big a mystery to anyone else but in a very genuine way I'd like to understand the driver for this so maybe we can collectively try to diffuse this craziness and see we are all normal healthy sane individuals enjoying a sport together...not mortal enemies out to undermine with personal choice of caliber.

Thoughts?

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[Jniedbalski]

I have noticed the same thing with ford and chevy and dodge. I have owned all three and they all break . But all three have been very reliable so it really doesn’t matter to me as long as it works

[Petrol & Powder]

People tend to self-validate.

I purchased "X" so therefore "X" must be the best thing on the market.

[Kestrel4k]

It started when Grog argued with Kror about the stick vs. the rock.

[Grmps]

It could be what worked best for them first!

[Bazoo]

I have my opinions... I dont have to argue about others choices if they are different than mine though. I dont know why others do that. Maybe its because they are childish jerks, or because they think they are better than the other person... maybe its cause they aint got nothing better to do. Who knows... I quit trying to figure it out long time ago, I just do what I do, and try to live the way that I believe is pleasing to the lord.

[rsrocket1]

Glock = Purfection
Case closed

;)


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[Mr_Sheesh]

I think it's the usual mess that happens when humans (try to) communicate :)

Besides, 257 Roberts so na na na! LOL

We DO tend to get rather attached to our calibers; There are harder hitting ones than that one, but while it'll hold a special place in my heart, it may not in yours. So sad for you! LOL

(Yeppers, insomnia has me in a weird mood - so take this mostly tongue in cheek! I do think there's a lot to the "because it worked well for them" - same thing I'm saying; That caliber that you killed your first deer with or shot your first 1/4 MOA group with, has a lot of emotion attached for it, to you - So it's great, *to you*. Nothing wrong with that, just that others may not feel the same about it.)

[RedlegEd]

John,
Unfortunately, we see too many things nowadays devolve into a heated argument or spitting contest when all that's really called for is polite, civil discussion of the topic at hand (without throwing insult at others who might disagree.) Maybe I'm not as jaded, but I see a lot of good, decent discussion around topics of caliber, bullets/boolets, moulds, powders, primers, firearms, etc. especially when the topic is started with a simple request for information. Normally, I'll see the discussions go along the lines of "I really like so and so because..." and folks then express why/why not they feel/think the way they do. Honestly, I've learned a great deal from the more experienced members of this site (and other sites as well,) mostly by reading the responses and using them to make a more informed decision. I've tried quite a few things mentioned here...some worked out for me, some didn't. In all cases, it got me thinking beyond my limited knowledge and experience. My $0.02. Ed

[sparkyv]

It started when Grog argued with Kror about the stick vs. the rock.

LOL! I side with Kror. All the rest of you know nothing!

[GhostHawk]

IMO there are no bad calibers, some are just more interesting than others.

Some may be more difficult to get to work with a particular combination.
But thus far I have found no caliber that could not be accurate with a little time and load development.

There are several higher speed calibers that are quite common that just don't tickle my fancy.
.270win, .30-06, 7mm, .308. Good calibers, and many of them in fine accurate rifles.

Just not of a lot of interest to me. I used to lump the old .30-30 in there, until I happened to find a pair of Win 94's at the pawn shop at semi reasonable prices. They shoot good, love the long neck on the .30-30 brass. Made for cast in many respects.

Slowed down a bit it makes a pretty interesting rifle.

But I see no point on beating up on calibers. I have no dog in this fight, nothing to gain by saying this rocks and that sucks. Its your money, spend it where you want. And I'll spend mine where I choose.

No harm nor foul there for anyone.

[JSnover]

We got all kinds here.
Some you have to handle with care, some you ignore because they always seem to have a bone to pick. Most are ok and some are fantastic.
If a thread turns into a dumpster fire it's time to move on.

[John McCorkle]

John,
Unfortunately, we see too many things nowadays devolve into a heated argument or spitting contest when all that's really called for is polite, civil discussion of the topic at hand (without throwing insult at others who might disagree.) Maybe I'm not as jaded, but I see a lot of good, decent discussion around topics of caliber, bullets/boolets, moulds, powders, primers, firearms, etc. especially when the topic is started with a simple request for information. Normally, I'll see the discussions go along the lines of "I really like so and so because..." and folks then express why/why not they feel/think the way they do. Honestly, I've learned a great deal from the more experienced members of this site (and other sites as well,) mostly by reading the responses and using them to make a more informed decision. I've tried quite a few things mentioned here...some worked out for me, some didn't. In all cases, it got me thinking beyond my limited knowledge and experience. My $0.02. EdI agree Ed, in a majority of cases we see civil dialogue, and especially here. Casters are a specific type of folk that seem to have alot more cool calm and collected about them. Really grateful for that by the way.

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[44MAG#1]

It is something to do. Everyone will have to have something to discuss, or argue about. Calibers are just as good as most other things to argue about.
Is it just an adversion to arguing or is it just the caliber thing?

Again I mean no harm, injury, harm to anyone by my post. It is just based on my knowledge only and not meant to troll, call out or bait anyone.

[Tom W.]

A lot of us grew up reading Guns & Ammo, Shooting Times and other magazines, plus being involved with military personnel while we were young has a lot do do with our perspective. That said, I like a Ruger #1 in almost anything the won't beat me to death, but I've had rifles, shotguns, pistols and revolvers in a whole pile of different calibers and gauges. As I got older I have tried different pistols, and found that the only striker fired pistol I can shoot is my LC9s Pro and my 22/45. I just shoot a hammer fired pistol better. I could be because I carried a Colt GM for 40 years. I used to bad mouth a 9mm, but now have two of them, and no .45 caliber anything.

The older people get, the smarter most of them get.

[rancher1913]

quite a few just want to start "fights" for entertainment, while others just like to argue. there was a fellow that used to be on here that would argue a point in one thread and then argue the counter point in another, notice I said he USED to be on here.

[John McCorkle]

It is something to do. Everyone will have to have something to discuss, or argue about. Calibers are just as good as most other things to argue about.
Is it just an adversion to arguing or is it just the caliber thing?

Again I mean no harm, injury, harm to anyone by my post. It is just based on my knowledge only and not meant to troll, call out or bait anyone.No a healthy discussion even argument is worth it when the topic matters...but things like calibers and car make and brand just aren't up there...

Arguing with someone you care about and their life choices and drug addiction, abuse of their significant other, or other serious issue is worth it...

whether the thing I like to do and the thing you also like to do but with a different size rock is better or worse...just sad really. Not worth an argument.

As Ed said earlier... dissenting ideas are always welcome, have learned alot here by challenges to a thought or idea...I love that and honestly we all need that.

It seems like everything has suddenly gotten so personal around choices in the gun industry...maybe a negative byproduct of too many good choices. If we were scraping together just to find any powder or primers again I doubt we'd see as much argumentation but I could be wrong.

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[44MAG#1]

I believe as long as sports lovers can argue about the best football, basketball team, baseball team, as long as NASCAR lovers can argue about the best driver, as long as people can argue over the way to grill a steak shooters can argue over calibers.
Think about it.

Again I mean no harm, hurt or injury to anyone by my post. It is based on my knowledge only and nothing else. It was not meant to troll bait or call out anyone in any way

[John McCorkle]

quite a few just want to start "fights" for entertainment, while others just like to argue. there was a fellow that used to be on here that would argue a point in one thread and then argue the counter point in another, notice I said he USED to be on here.Ha, well....I mean play stupid games win the prizes that fit the sport I guess

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[Outpost75]

Caliber wars are mostly "mental masturbation."

Truth is:

Any gun is better than no gun. If you can't carry a gun, due to "work rules," I can tell you from experience that Klein electrician's pliers or Channel Locks make an effective come-along and impact weapon. Hard hat is great impact weapon which can be thrown. Been there too and done that. Any workman's tool belt has multiple alternatives.

But a small gun which you shoot well, that is safe, reliable, and accurate enough, is better than the gun rag hand cannon of the month which is not securely on your person.

There are no "one shot stops" except with close air support or artillery called danger-close onto your position.

When the unexpected happens, you gotta dance with the girl you brought. Get over it.

Mall ninjas and bar-room commandoes who have never been downrange in harms way or been shot at need reply.

Cops and military vets are encouraged to contribute.

Former UCs and spooks probably have the most useful info which can be applied to civilian CCW.

[nun2kute]

For a Sinker on a deep-sea fishing pole …..

[44Blam]

If it's not equal to or bigger than.430, it's bull puckie!

[Iron Whittler]

My 2 cents worth is It is more of a matter of what a person is comfortable with. If they are comfortable shooting a particular cal/rifle combo, they are more apt to shoot it regular. I've known numerous one gun shooters that were awesome hunters and paper punchers. My self, I got more shooti'n irons than I can shake a stick at. I'm A deplorable ( aka known as a gun nut) but when it's time to put meat in the freezer, I got MY favorites. The bottom line to me is if it's your favorite 88mag whizz bang, it's up to you to decide whether to use it or not. :Fire:

[brewer12345]

Truth is:

Any gun is better than no gun. If you can't carry a gun, due to "work rules," I can tell you from experience that Klein electrician's pliers or Channel Locks make an effective come-along and impact weapon. Hard hat is great impact weapon which can be thrown. Been there too and done that. Any workman's tool belt has multiple alternatives.



I am not even allowed that at work, unfortunately. I would much prefer even a 22 short that I could carry, or a tool or other improvised weapon, but no go. *sigh* Guess I have to just continue scurrying as fast as I can when I am out of the building and not yet to the truck (requires a trip on public transportation). I hate being a soft target.

[Mr_Sheesh]

brewer12345, "you have a knee that goes sore at times, and you need to carry a nice heavy Ash, Yew, or at least Red or White Oak cane, right?" :) A properly sized cane makes one a far harder target. (Not armor plated but against a knife, you can ruin their DAY.) If you can find some even tougher and harder wood (Osage Orange or Ironwood or better yet Ironbark?) that's even tougher stuff. I'm trying to find a 1"x4' dowel of one of these, I have 2 sore knees and the aluminum cane I have would barely dissuade someone with a butter knife, so I'm getting something a bit more substantial. Can't run away, can make it cost them to hurt me though.

[megasupermagnum]

I think a big problem is we forget the cartridge doesn't do anything. It's just a tube to hold a primer, powder and bullet. The bullet is the only thing that matters at the target. Whats better 270 or 30-06? It doesn't matter if both send a 150 grain bullet at 2800ish FPS. At that point you could argue the ever so slight difference in BC or penetration, but that comes down the bullet again doesn't it?

[richhodg66]

Saw a discussion the other day, "which is better for my woods deer hunting in Minnesota, .30-30 or .35 Remington"? Have to laugh at responses. So many have this idea that the .35 has so much "knock down" power, whatever that means. I guess the annoying thing is people who can't reason and think, anybody who looks at ballistics on paper will see little difference. Both work fine, deer won't know the difference, there may be some little specifics like if you don't reaload, the .30-30 is easier to find ammo for, but in the end, it's a silly thing to even ask.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Also "whichever one you can hit the target more accurately with!" could be the better cartridge, really.

[Hickory]

For me, the best caliber is the one that won't tear the wires out of my pacemaker and will still kill a deer.
If I go too big it might kill on both ends.

[Mr_Sheesh]

Hickory, good point! Have to survive to count the caliber as a good idea.

Friend (ex-cop) had one of those 4-shot 357 derringers; He said on that thing that he wasn't sure it was better to SHOOT it than to be SHOT by it. I am just guessing here but I think he didn't much like the recoil :P Unpleasant recoil can get old, even if it doesn't try to kill us.

[DocSavage]

I like to read the back and forth on X vs Y but in reality who wants to get shot by anything above a BB gun. I sometimes carry a 32 auto and get laughed at for carrying a mousegun but so far no one has volunteered to let me put a few rounds into them. I work on the what ever you can shoot comfortably and accurately dept.

[44MAG#1]

Is this subject concerning calibers that are very close in caliber, bullet weight and velocity or are we talking about the 357 Mag verses the 44 Magnum type thing?

Again I mean no harm, hurt or anguish by my statement. I am not trolling, baiting or calling out anyone. My statement is based on my knowledge and/or my experience and/or information.

[Larry Gibson]

Is this subject concerning calibers that are very close in caliber, bullet weight and velocity or are we talking about the 357 Mag verses the 44 Magnum type thing?

Again I mean no harm, hurt or anguish by my statement. I am not trolling, baiting or calling out anyone. My statement is based on my knowledge and/or my experience and/or information.

Or about a cast bullet in the 223 for coyote hunting?

Perhaps some "caliber wars" are simply subtle suggestions (sometimes not so subtle) that what is desired may not be appropriate or the "best" choice based on numerous factors......?

[John McCorkle]

Or about a cast bullet in the 223 for coyote hunting?

Perhaps some "caliber wars" are simply subtle suggestions (sometimes not so subtle) that what is desired may not be appropriate or the "best" choice based on numerous factors......?I don't think my commentary is on a specific situation in which we can all agree a generous amount of healthy knowledge and experience can be exchanged and appropriate...ie using a 22lr for deer hunting. Can you do it? Yes, is it advisable? No...

My commentary is on the propensity for people to argue so violently about something they are not personally involved with. It's the violence of opinion that is the point of my concern. Getting worked up over minutia is icing in the cake of ridiculous...but there are few things worth getting all worked up over...but calibers of all things seem to be one of those things people choose to make a hill to die on over.

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[mdi]

People tend to self-validate.

I purchased "X" so therefore "X" must be the best thing on the market.

Human nature. Some have a need to be included in a "society" and will usually parrot what their favorite "celebrity" says (Keith, Skeeter, Grennel. Ayob, etc.). Some need to see their opinion in print (or on the screen), and yep the self "validation". "Lee haters" are a good example...

[Wag]

As human beings, we all hate to be told we're wrong. We love to be right and we love to be admired for it. If we form a belief, we hold to it because to be told our belief is wrong is to be embarrassed for making a "bad" decision about that belief we hold to.

Most of us don't even know why we believe what we believe. In most cases, it has to do with how we were initially raised by parents or by our first instructors in a topic. Ergo, "Daddy love Chevy's, Granddaddy loved Chevy's and by god, I love Chevy's too." Or, "My first firearms instructor taught me...."

You get the idea.

The bottom line is, "best," is very subjective anyway. Few, if any, of us have ever done a truly scientific study to answer any of the questions we have in order to determine the facts of the thing. We choose to trust someone who posted a video of bullets hitting a gel block. Or we trust FBI studies of people who were killed by various bullets. Or a thousand other reasons we take to believe a certain thing and when it all comes down to the end, we still go on our beliefs.

And we defend those beliefs, tooth and nail because we simply don't like to be wrong.

Better that we stay open to possibilities, regardless of whether we continue to hold to our beliefs afterward or we choose to adopt a different belief as a result. Nothing wrong with listening.

--Wag--

[Texas by God]

BB gun to 12 gauge is my favorite caliber.

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[500Linebaughbuck]

It started when Grog argued with Kror about the stick vs. the rock.

mmmmmmm........me use stick and rock. grog and kror is dumdum. :kidding:

its easy to start a caliber war. 30-06 vs 270, 260 vs 6.5 cm, 22-250 vs 220 swift.........but it is hard to end it.


i deleted my "ft/lbs" myth. i figured it would go to caliber wars to ft/lbs war(which ft/lbs would lose:lol::lol::lol:).

[dverna]

I must be weird as I see two extremes quite a bit. Many think they need a 7mm Mag for deer and the opposite....even a .22 will kill a moose if you can place the shot.

One of my neighbors wants to hunt elk with his .243 and has been told by a "bunch of folks in Colorado" that is plenty of gun. This same guy shot the lower leg on a deer at 70 yards out of his cabin window last year....and the little deer lived for at least another 3 months hobbling in to feed on corn.

Good responses so far and I agree with most. A lot of "this is what I do" or "this works for me" factors into these types arguments. With the least knowledgeable normally getting the most worked up.

I get wound up when I believe the caliber selected is not suitable for the skill level of most people to insure a humane kill. If someone wants to use a .338 Win Mag to hunt deer, I think they are idiots but it is none of my business.

[country gent]

Some have never been taught or forgotten the art of debate. Debating a subject is far different than arguing or fighting and goes along ways towards pointing out pros and cons on each side. A different side to or opinion to some is the same as questioning their intellegence or manhood. Debating and discussion is fast becoming a lost art.

Selection of a cartridge, caliber, type of powder, rifle type or action is a very personal choice and as such is not really a debatable point. Same with reloading equipment, shooting gear, and many other things. Personal choice is just that. I have found when someone asks for advice they are more looking for you to rationalize their choice not point out the pros cons of it or other choices.

[arlon]

My method is just to have so many different ones that it's foolish to try and rank them.

[sawinredneck]

I’m a cartridge snob, I’m a bad man.
I try not to be pushy in conversations, but explain MY reasoning and MY experience’s on MY choices. Some people can’t shoot a .22 right, some people want a .50cal, it’s trying to get the right caliber/gun for that person and their perceived needs.
I love and respect Glocks, but I can’t shoot one to save my life, they don’t fit my hands. I don’t buy Glocks anymore, easy.

[odfairfaxsub]

I think you need to match up what your doing and how far your doing it. I told someone the other day i prob wouldn’t take a shot w my 45-70 past 100 yards w open sights because that’s as far as I’m good w it. If I told people you can’t shoot past 100 yards open sights w a 45-70 because you won’t hit what your aiming at, I’d be repeating my blammering idiot routine again (here all week try the veal) because there’s people out there w the right sights, the practice, and reloading procedures that can do the repedibly out to 400 plus. Because I can’t do it I can’t tell you you can’t. Now if I personally saw you being a idget lobbing bullets at the range like a motar gunner at the range and you thought hitting 30 percent then telling me your going to quigly down under a antelope w your Italian sharps and I was close enough to you to say something personally maybe I’d mention your a terrible shot and save your money and not bother even trying but there are super capable people here to debate them to a hole in the ground while I’m the 100 yard man behind a computer.

About calibers debates:

30-30 vs 35 remington or 444 vs 45-70 or 45 colt reloaded vs 44 mag reloaded hahaha. This or these are true apples to apples debates. It’s a spitting contest, tie snatching debate that goes nowhere. There are some values to the debates like well 444 marlin is great because you can buy pistol bullets by the 100 and 45-70 bullets are in boxes of 50, 30-30 is better in my opinion because of casings are super common and so is loaded ammo, 45 colt does the same thing at lower pressure prob a better cast bullet performer. Now when people try to impose that or those thoughts as the sole reason to why their right then it’s laughable. I like 45-70 because I have one hahaha that’s it. 35 rem vs 30-30 who cares which one has 20 more lbs of energy at 200 yards or whatever, pick a revolver caliber and forget about it. I have my preferences and I like what I’m doing . Worst thing ever is “hey guys need help I just bought a 30-30 Winchester from the pawn shop. What mold should I get?” ....... “why didn’t you get a 35 rem?” “(Insert further debate not related to topic of what mold”

[odfairfaxsub]

By the way, I’m a 45-70 guy, a 35 remington guy, and a 44 mag guy and I think everyone should be happy if they own a 444 marlin instead of a 45-70, a 30-30 because they kill deer just the same, and 45 colt is just fine.

[mozeppa]

my asperly aimless is the best!

.1500 magnum .....doesn't kick and the bullet is so fast it gets there yesterday!

[Tom W.]

I had a .444 once. I never did like it..... My neighbor across the street had one and loved his. I'm just a single shot man......

[odfairfaxsub]

And that is just fine. I think I ended up being a 45-70 guy based solely on the reason a new marlin in 45-70 cost 550 and a older 444 marlin cost upwards in price. That being said I think they practically are kissing cousins.

[JoeJames]

I changed my mind on various calibers over the last 40 something years. I'd like say 30-06, then try a .308. About 5 years ago I read a review in Shotgun News about the Lipsey 44 Specials in the Ruger Blackhawk. Got one in and it is now my favorite for shooting and reloading. I never thought much about a 32 S&W Long; then awhile back saw a Smith Model 1903 Hand ejector with fixed sights at the local shop, and bought it on a whim. Had a blast regulating my hand loads to line up with the sights.

This will probably jinx me, but most calibers can be interesting with a possible exception of a 25 auto. Gotta draw the line somewhere.

[John McCorkle]

I like 45-70 because I have one hahaha that’s it. 35 rem vs 30-30 who cares which one has 20 more lbs of energy at 200 yards or whatever, pick a revolver caliber and forget about it. I have my preferences and I like what I’m doing . Worst thing ever is “hey guys need help I just bought a 30-30 Winchester from the pawn shop. What mold should I get?” ....... “why didn’t you get a 35 rem?” “(Insert further debate not related to topic of what mold”

'Why didn't you get a "x"'- guy is as much fun as the Armslist guy who wants msrp +15% on a well used slightly abused firearm. I've learned to no longer try to engage many people on gun trader type classified ads...it is either reasonable or it's not...if not I let sleeping dogs lay.

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[Char-Gar]

People tend to self-validate.

I purchased "X" so therefore "X" must be the best thing on the market.

That is the basically correct answer. Folks get their egos all wrapped up in their choices. Therefore an attack on their choice or their opinion is an attack on them.

[mdi]

The 44 Magnum is by far the best cartridge ever produced, hands down. That's my so very knowledgeable opinion and I'm stickin' to it. I've loaded everything from 123 gr. balls for my grasshopper and/or gopher hunts, up to some 300 gr. RNFP slugs for my T-Rex expeditions. No other cartridge is equal to the .44 (even though I've never had any experience with them). So there, I said it and I ain't listenin' to any other inferior opinions... :not listening:

[gwpercle]

It is because most haven't learned the secrete my grandfather told me when I was a little boy.
Every year he would kill a wild hog , sometimes two , on our annual hunting trip. I would go with my Paw-Paw while the others went off in search of white tail deer. At night heated caliber wars broke out, each touting his favorite 30-06, 30-30 , 30-40 Krag , 270 Win , 257 Roberts...as best. But the old man never got involved in them .
But my Paw-Paw would always hunt with an old single shot 22 LR Winchester Rifle and every year he got a hog, squirrels , rabbit even birds ! So I ask him why he doesn't use a big rifle like the others ? And he tells me "because they haven't learned the secrete" and tells me " Boy, the truth is ,it doesn't much matter what you shoot a deer or hog with....what does matter is where you place that bullet !"
And that's the honest truth. I've seen that old man kill many a hog with just one shot of that 22 LR.
Gary

[bedbugbilly]

POLL" "What is the best caliber?"

Let's make it a short poll . . . the one that works best for you.

[John McCorkle]

POLL" "What is the best caliber?"

Let's make it a short poll . . . the one that works best for you.Ha, unpin grenades much?!

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[Crash_Corrigan]

Again we are forgetting about the good book and the pitfalls of a prideful being. Boasting and talking down about others and their choices in life is not what Jesus would do or did. James wrote very well about the failings of man in a very concise way that should be easily understood by any person who can reason and read. He wrote about the sin of coveting another's whatever (wife-house-riches whatever) and this sin of coveting is what our society's advertising industry is based upon. It causes dissension and people feel that without the latest technological goodie they will have not yet arrived. Again we want to be prideful in what we own etc and we are dead wrong here. As the child of parents who grew up during the Great Depression of the 30's I learned early on that the "wanna demands" were not practical nor appreciated in our family. Dad bought a car and kept it for at least 10-15 years before he would buy another. There was never a color TV in our house when the B&W TV still worked. I remember taking out all the tubes from the TV and putting them wrapped in newspaper in a carton and taking them to the drugstore which had a tube testing station. There I would test each tube and replace any marginal performers at a reasonable cost. Finally in '61 we got a TV w/o tubes and it was a color TV. It lasted 6 months and we dragged out the old Pilot B&W and soldiered on for another 6 months until we could afford to fix the fancy one. Fussing and fighting over nonsense is also sinful according to Timothy in the good book.

[richhodg66]

Ginger or Mary Ann?

Tastes great or less filling?

Important stuff, I tell ya! Has to be discussed!

[tazman]

I keep buying different guns in different calibers thinking at some point I am going to find THE ONE.
Now I have several very nice rifles and handguns that I can't shoot very well.
After an experience I had a few months ago, I refuse to let anyone else shoot my guns.
I let a man who was know to be an excellent shot shoot my 1911 and he shot a magazine full of my handloads into a tiny little raggedy hole at 15 yards. I know it won't shoot that well because it never did it for me.
I guess I will continue my search.

[Char-Gar]

I am old school, so if I could have only one center fire rifle, it would be 30-06 and a handloading set up. A 310 tool would do.

[RED BEAR]

I have got an ear full on here when even mentioning a 25 or 32 for self-defense. I have a wide variety of calibers and the only bad ones are the ones I don't own yet but am trying my best to correct this. And to mr percle your grandad hit the nail on the head. I am perfectly happy to carry a 22 or 25 as I am with my 41 mag. If you feel you need more gun then by all means go for it. For me it's all about hitting where you aim.

[44Blam]

Ginger or Mary Ann?

Tastes great or less filling?

Important stuff, I tell ya! Has to be discussed!

Ginger all the way!!!

[Wayne Dobbs]

Caliber wars are mostly "mental masturbation."

Truth is:

Any gun is better than no gun. If you can't carry a gun, due to "work rules," I can tell you from experience that Klein electrician's pliers or Channel Locks make an effective come-along and impact weapon. Hard hat is great impact weapon which can be thrown. Been there too and done that. Any workman's tool belt has multiple alternatives.

But a small gun which you shoot well, that is safe, reliable, and accurate enough, is better than the gun rag hand cannon of the month which is not securely on your person.

There are no "one shot stops" except with close air support or artillery called danger-close onto your position.

When the unexpected happens, you gotta dance with the girl you brought. Get over it.

Mall ninjas and bar-room commandoes who have never been downrange in harms way or been shot at need reply.

Cops and military vets are encouraged to contribute.

Former UCs and spooks probably have the most useful info which can be applied to civilian CCW.

Enough wisdom in this one to shut down the Internet! As for common tools, I can say that a ball peen or common claw hammer are devastating weapons (having worked on two horrific murders in which that was the weapon) and easily kept around without comment.

Get a commonly available compact pistol (actually get two if possible) and learn to shoot it well and keep it on your person as much as possible (and don't be talking about it). Your mental game and related preparations are much more important than the gun, caliber or ammo. Get your mind and spirit right and keep them right, then quit worrying.

[mdi]

Hee Hee, I've only been shot at once and that was in Compton and I was in the back of a panel truck leaving the scene. I was 17 and half drunk so I remember nuttin'. But I chose my SD weapon by the big hole in the end and not by what some celebrity said... Colt 1911A1 [smilie=1:

[Wag]

It is because most haven't learned the secrete my grandfather told me when I was a little boy.
Every year he would kill a wild hog , sometimes two , on our annual hunting trip. I would go with my Paw-Paw while the others went off in search of white tail deer. At night heated caliber wars broke out, each touting his favorite 30-06, 30-30 , 30-40 Krag , 270 Win , 257 Roberts...as best. But the old man never got involved in them .
But my Paw-Paw would always hunt with an old single shot 22 LR Winchester Rifle and every year he got a hog, squirrels , rabbit even birds ! So I ask him why he doesn't use a big rifle like the others ? And he tells me "because they haven't learned the secrete" and tells me " Boy, the truth is ,it doesn't much matter what you shoot a deer or hog with....what does matter is where you place that bullet !"
And that's the honest truth. I've seen that old man kill many a hog with just one shot of that 22 LR.
Gary

It's always that old guy in the corner with the beat up gear/pack/rifle who doesn't say much. Don't ever bet against that guy.

My granddaddy was about like yours. Didn't talk much during these kinds of discussions but always brought home the bacon. Sometimes, he'd go to his 30-06 or a shotgun, depending on his intent, but mostly, just the dang truck rifle in 22LR that he used for a lot of his game.

I miss that old guy. I have a thousand-million questions for him....

--Wag--

[Budzilla 19]

Mary Ann, cause, ..................... well, you know.

Calibers? Pick one, learn it, become proficient with it, if not up to the task, pick another.
Berate anyone for their choices, heck no!!!

[Bent Ramrod]

The best analysis of caliber wars, for hunting at least, was a chapter in Jack O’Connor’s The Last Book. He and Elmer Keith went around and around about the .270 versus .338 and above for decades. The back pages of the two-volume Safari Press compendium of Keith’s Guns and Ammo columns tell the other side of the big-vs-small bore “controversy.”

But the main function of caliber wars was to sell gun and hunting magazines. No reader would keep buying a magazine that said his pet firearm was just as good, but certainly no better, than another. This, even if his rifle was a box-stock specimen bought from Western Auto and he was still on his first box of factory rounds after five seasons’ hunting.

The fact that successful hunting is such a subtle blend of woodcraft, animal psychology and behavior expertise, field marksmanship and luck, that the caliber and load of the gun are most likely lost in the noise, is something nobody really wants to hear. That the .303 Savage is much better than “the old thirty-thutty”, and the .35 Remington is better still, is rousing stuff to the owners of such.

Caliber wars in magazines were refereed by editors who kept the direct personal element out of the arguments, because nobody would pay to read such. The writers could generalize about wimps with popguns and Magnumitis sufferers in general, but the essays couldn’t deteriorate into anything close to the average Internet flame war on the subject.

Definitely Mary Ann. Lower maintenance, for one thing.

[gnoahhh]

I'm old enough now that Mrs. Howell is starting to look hot.

Do you notice also that the most opinionated folks discussing the latest and newest cartridges and bullets designed for extremely long range shooting defend such stuff after only ever using them on their 100 yard ranges? Long range hunter/SWAT/Sniper/tactical wannabe's live in a dream world and tilt at Internet windmills while riding bareback on their unicorns. As someone alluded to earlier- beware the grey haired squinty eyed old guy who's been shooting nothing but his old M70 .30-06 since he bought the thing in high school with lawn mowing money.

[gwpercle]

I have got an ear full on here when even mentioning a 25 or 32 for self-defense. I have a wide variety of calibers and the only bad ones are the ones I don't own yet but am trying my best to correct this. And to mr percle your grandad hit the nail on the head. I am perfectly happy to carry a 22 or 25 as I am with my 41 mag. If you feel you need more gun then by all means go for it. For me it's all about hitting where you aim.

No flack from me on the merits of a 22 LR , I sometimes carry one myself , it's all about where you place that boolit. Lots of men and game have fallen to a well placed shot.
Gary

[26Charlie]

It’s a feedback cycle. You get a Springfield .3006 when you are 15. Then you get a bullet mould and loading tool so you can shoot more for the money. Then you find more used moulds and maybe a revolver. By the time you are 75 you have spent your hobby money along the way to do lots of shooting, and have a number of calibers of guns and moulds and of course a mould cries out for a gun to shoot it in. Do I sound like I am relating personal experience?
So there is the Lee 338-220 I cast some bullets for a friend a long time ago, who went squirrely and refused to shoot lead after he got them. Then Lyman 338320 200gr came along recently, so naturally I had to bid on a .338 Federal Ruger. While that was in the works, a local Ruger .338 RSM turned up on Uncle Henry’s, complete with brass, bullets, and dies. How can you pass that up? So now I have two different caliber .338 rifles, two .338 moulds, and more shooting. That’s how it works in the cast bullet world.

Aside to .44MAG#1 - the docs just want to compare you to water. Thank the French. After their revolution, they wanted nothing to do with royal units. They wanted only natural units - they decided to divide the distance from the pole to the equator into 10 million measures. Called meters in French. Then made everything powers of 10 from there, and tied weights to measures by calling a cubic centimeter of water a gram. (Also, a square meter an are) But vive egalite! No more pounds, feet, or acres for France!

[megasupermagnum]

I must be weird as I see two extremes quite a bit. Many think they need a 7mm Mag for deer and the opposite....even a .22 will kill a moose if you can place the shot.

One of my neighbors wants to hunt elk with his .243 and has been told by a "bunch of folks in Colorado" that is plenty of gun. This same guy shot the lower leg on a deer at 70 yards out of his cabin window last year....and the little deer lived for at least another 3 months hobbling in to feed on corn.

Good responses so far and I agree with most. A lot of "this is what I do" or "this works for me" factors into these types arguments. With the least knowledgeable normally getting the most worked up.

I get wound up when I believe the caliber selected is not suitable for the skill level of most people to insure a humane kill. If someone wants to use a .338 Win Mag to hunt deer, I think they are idiots but it is none of my business.

Aha! So one of the culprits this thread is about comes out.

A hunting gun is a 270 winchester through 30-06, everybody else is stupid. What a sad world to live in.

[oldblinddog]

Turning a .338 Win Mag into a .33 Winchester is easily done by even a minimally skilled reloader.

[Chev. William]

Perhaps the "Caliber Wars" are also 'driven' by State Game hunting Regulations.
We 'Know" a Properly placed .22RF Shot will kill an Elk or Moose but Game regulations say it is "Inhumane" to hunt such with a .22RF cartridge.

Game regulations also don't "like' Road Kills with a Motor Vehicle. Seems a Motor Vehicle is not "Sporting" even When the Animal jumps/runs to the Impact site to quickly fo ra Driver To react/Stop before hitting the animal.

Personally it seems like the Animal is committing "Suicide by Motor Vehicle"; just like Humans who choose to sleep, or walk without listening, on Railroad Tracks.

Chev. William

[dh2]

I have seen it on this and other forums, to me I don't like the 270 Win. many other rounds do the job better ,so I just don't hunt with it, I am all for hunt with the gun that feels good to you,

[GARD72977]

Glock = Purfection
Case closed

;)


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I agree! If it's chambered in a glock it's great. (Even the 45Gap[smilie=1:)

[GARD72977]

There is a funny thing about guns and cartridges. Nothing comes without a price. Power, Range, and Accurracy are all affected by Mr Newton and his law.

Ignore all the cost and the 338Lapua is a do it all cartridge

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Against my better judgement, I think I will partake in the fruitless plight of Caliber Wars.

If it's not equal to or bigger than.430, it's bull puckie!
The Story:
My Favorite caliber was the 44 Mag, to be referred to as 43 Mag for the rest of this post.
I started reloading because of the 43 Mag, and then I started Swaging jacketed bullets because of the 43 Mag, then I decided I didn't want to buy cores for this Swaging, I then entered the realm of melting metal...AKA: casting cores...all because of the 43 Mag. I joined castboolits, again because of the 43 Mag.
>then I learned a few things from this website, that I probably should have learned long ago, but I guess better late than never.
I learned that the 43 is not a 44. I learned that even SAAMI can't agree on barrel size specs for the 43 Mag (Pistol and Rifle specs are different). I learned that most rifle manufacturers are using some arcane notion of a slow twist rate on the 43 Mag rifles they manufacture, making them less suitable for heavy boolits.

Soon enough, I learned to hate the 43. Especially when I learned about the 41 mag. Everything wrong with the 43 has been fixed by the masters who created the 41 Mag.

Viva 41 Mag !
:guntootsmiley::cbpour::lovebooli:cast_boolits: :Fire:

[wmitty]

I thought caliber was a designation of the bore and groove diameter of a rifled barrel. I thought cartridge was the designation of the case containing a specific volume of propellant; and could be of the same caliber or smaller or larger caliber. I shall amend my thinking. This has been a fun post!

[woodbutcher]

:drinks::lol: Hi Outpost75.Your post about one shot stops reminded me about an article writen a few decades ago by one of the noted gun scribes of the day.He said the only thing that would ensure a one shot stop was a"Supersonic Telephone Pole".
Now my favorite hand gun is the 1911A1 in .45 ACP.Why?Because without one to hand one day I would not be here today.Oh yeah.All 8 rounds went in his chest cavity.Loving this thread.
Good luck.Have fun.Be safe.
Leo

[lightman]

I guess its just human nature to argue over stuff. The best truck, the best brand of reloading equipment, the best brand of tools, ect. When I post I try to be as inoffensive as possible. I had a terrible experience with one of the 3 major brands of trucks. Bad enough that I'll never even consider having another. But I keep that opinion to myself. I had the same experience with bullet molds once. Calibers? Well, they are just something else to have an opinion about, I guess. I do get amused by how people get on the bandwagon and promote certain calibers. I guess the newest is the 6.5 Creedmoor? It does what it does pretty well but its no better than a few other 6.5's. An otherwise pretty knowledgeable shooter once told me that a 7MM STW does not drop at all! My reply was "how does it defy gravity"?

[rintinglen]

I keep buying different guns in different calibers thinking at some point I am going to find THE ONE.
Now I have several very nice rifles and handguns that I can't shoot very well.
After an experience I had a few months ago, I refuse to let anyone else shoot my guns.
I let a man who was know to be an excellent shot shoot my 1911 and he shot a magazine full of my handloads into a tiny little raggedy hole at 15 yards. I know it won't shoot that well because it never did it for me.
I guess I will continue my search.

Coffee launch. That made me crack up.

[robg]

If the cap fits wear it.buy/ shoot what suits You .

[KCSO]

When I was a kid we only had a 22 and a 410 and they did it all and were the best guns ever! My father in law was a Jack O'Connor fan and his 270 was the best ever but when we all went deer hunting his sons 308 and my 303 killed them just as dead. 6.5 as an elephant gun worked for Bell. In actual testing my 6.5x55 with a 26"barrel was only 50 fps off from a new 6.5 creedmoor, wow I'll bet the deer are cringing now that I have 50 more fps.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

5 pages of arguing over why we argue! :killingpc

[John McCorkle]

5 pages of arguing over why we argue! :killingpcMmmmm, true. I guess the truth hurts when it ought too...

Guess it's part venting part analysis a dash of frustration over things we can't change and a pinch of crankiness...at least on my part....

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[lightman]

Cabin fever and the winter just started!

[popper]

Different strokes for different folks. Anyone ever look at their requirements (or desires) ballistically before purchasing a new gun? Realize that most designs are re-purposed military. The 'classics' just work or are so readily available they make sense. Some 'wildcats' out perform the parent. Same goes with the type of gun, milsurps, levers, SA or bolt. What serves YOUR purpose?

[sigep1764]

Different strokes for different folks. Anyone ever look at their requirements (or desires) ballistically before purchasing a new gun? Realize that most designs are re-purposed military. The 'classics' just work or are so readily available they make sense. Some 'wildcats' out perform the parent. Same goes with the type of gun, milsurps, levers, SA or bolt. What serves YOUR purpose?

They all do! They are all fun! As for ballistics for the purpose, I haven't really done that. I kind of pick and choose them to fill voids, imaginary or real.

[quilbilly]

Cabin fever and the winter just started!

Hear, Hear!!

[popper]

Fun is a purpose. So is tinkering. Smiles and giggles, yea, bring them on. Reminds me of a fellow that shot steel buffalo @1200 yds with 30/30. He did hit it. Try it with your 223? Squirrels with a 45/70? Yes, you can!

[smoked turkey]

Well here it is way past my bedtime , and I have read every post on these 5 pages and I still don't know which deer rifle is best. Guess I'll go to bed and check in again tomorrow.

[crankycalico]

its FUN to argue things. SOMETIMES when someone decides to spend 1600 on a new rifle and scope, and starts buying ammunition that costs twice what his current ammunition for his .308 Winchester does.... YOU GOTZ TO SAY SOMETHING.

My favorite has always been the "30wcf is useless for deer" but yet .327 federal IS EXCELLENT for deer.. OR the "buckshot at 50 yards is EXCELLENT.. but a .357 magnum with a cast bullet generating 550# of energy isn't good enough at 50 yards"

BUT ill always admit,,,, if someone else spends 3 months defending their purchase of the "penultimate" type 3 mlock free float handguard for their AR.... its always fun to point that out when they get a different handguard for it...

[sawinredneck]

I keep buying different guns in different calibers thinking at some point I am going to find THE ONE.
Now I have several very nice rifles and handguns that I can't shoot very well.
After an experience I had a few months ago, I refuse to let anyone else shoot my guns.
I let a man who was know to be an excellent shot shoot my 1911 and he shot a magazine full of my handloads into a tiny little raggedy hole at 15 yards. I know it won't shoot that well because it never did it for me.
I guess I will continue my search.
Yeah, I can beat that! After YEARS of searching, I finally ended up with my prized Colt Delta Elite! It was a proud moment for me, I assure you! So I grabbed some ammo, finished out the rest of the gunshow and headed home. Now, I’m “one of those guys”, I NEED TO KNOW “what’ll she do”! So once Home I immediately called a buddy to go shoot it! Of course he was game for this! We get there, and before I can do anything, he’s loading it up and shooting a beer can! Three shots, “I know I’m hitting it, but it’s not moving?” We go look, three holes, right through the can!
I finally got to fire it, I’m not the best shot, but was impressed with its accuracy. Then things went south! I let his wife shoot it, it got really ugly! (Stick with me, it gets really funny!) she out shot both of us! Never seen anything like it! That woman could not miss with MY GUN! All 145lbs of her! I’ve been forced to offer them (read HER) first chance if I ever sell that gun because she loves it so much.
Anyway, a few months later they are at one of the now defunct sporting goods stores, seriously sorry I can’t remember the name, he and she where talking about a 10mm. The idiots behind the counter, oh my! “Lady, there’s no way you’ll be able to control that beast of a gun! The recoil will beat you up to no end!” My friend is a much calmer, and tolerant person than I, calmly “Really? A buddy of mine has one, and she outshoots him with his own gun!”
So yeah, I’m the guy that gets outshot with his unmanageable 10mm, BY A WOMAN!

[Stephen Cohen]

A very good mate of mine is a real lover of the 30/06 and all else pales in its presents, yet when I had my 375 whelen made and took my first deer he concluded the 375 was the perfect 30/06. I guess the moral of the story is, who cares what your favourite calibre is as long as you enjoy the company of a good mate while shooting it. Regards Stephen

[John McCorkle]

Well here it is way past my bedtime , and I have read every post on these 5 pages and I still don't know which deer rifle is best. Guess I'll go to bed and check in again tomorrow.Hahaha

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[tazman]

Fun is a purpose. So is tinkering. Smiles and giggles, yea, bring them on. Reminds me of a fellow that shot steel buffalo @1200 yds with 30/30. He did hit it. Try it with your 223? Squirrels with a 45/70? Yes, you can!

I used to hunt squirrels with a 50 cal muzzle loader just for fun. It made head shots mandatory.

[TheGrimReaper]

I think we all have our personal preferences. I know I do.
I like .264 calibers
I really like 10MM and .41 Magnum

Like ice cream we got many flavors to choose from.

[trixter]

The caliber I think is best is the one I am shooting at the time. I bought a 'black rifle' cause I wanted one. When my Stepdad passed, I was gifted an A3-03, and I have had 'sporterized' to what I like, completely wiping out any market value. When 22 ammo got in such short supply, I bought a Mossberg 223 bolt rifle, I love it and use it for hunting 'squeeks', as well as my many 22lr's, I claim they are for my grandsons-4 of them, and I was gifted a Remington 720 bolt in 300 Savage when my mom died, and that will be passed on to my son. I am not bragging but very thankful for these guns, all this just to say I have what I have due partly to circumstances, and some by choice. I love my guns and mine are not better than anyone's, they are just mine. I am having so much fun with them, I wish you could see the very satisfied smile on my face. My hope for ALL of you is to have as much fun with yours. Be blessed and walk in peace.

[Texas by God]

I've never met a caliber I couldn't use for hunting something. Before you say .25 acp, nope;
I've taken two squirrels with a Raven!

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[Wag]

Yeah, I can beat that! After YEARS of searching, I finally ended up with my prized Colt Delta Elite! It was a proud moment for me, I assure you! So I grabbed some ammo, finished out the rest of the gunshow and headed home. Now, I’m “one of those guys”, I NEED TO KNOW “what’ll she do”! So once Home I immediately called a buddy to go shoot it! Of course he was game for this! We get there, and before I can do anything, he’s loading it up and shooting a beer can! Three shots, “I know I’m hitting it, but it’s not moving?” We go look, three holes, right through the can!
I finally got to fire it, I’m not the best shot, but was impressed with its accuracy. Then things went south! I let his wife shoot it, it got really ugly! (Stick with me, it gets really funny!) she out shot both of us! Never seen anything like it! That woman could not miss with MY GUN! All 145lbs of her! I’ve been forced to offer them (read HER) first chance if I ever sell that gun because she loves it so much.
Anyway, a few months later they are at one of the now defunct sporting goods stores, seriously sorry I can’t remember the name, he and she where talking about a 10mm. The idiots behind the counter, oh my! “Lady, there’s no way you’ll be able to control that beast of a gun! The recoil will beat you up to no end!” My friend is a much calmer, and tolerant person than I, calmly “Really? A buddy of mine has one, and she outshoots him with his own gun!”
So yeah, I’m the guy that gets outshot with his unmanageable 10mm, BY A WOMAN!

My wife could ALWAYS shoot better than me unless I went out and practiced first with 500 or 1,000 rounds. She never practiced but dang, she was unbelievable.

Women aren't out there to just blow **** up. They are there to hit their target and they take their time doing it. Most of the women I've taught how to shoot will listen to what you tell them and then do it that way. And within a short time, less than a half hour, they get it down pat. The guys usually go the opposite way. They get it within a short time but lose it as soon as they start rushing the process of learning. It's tough to get those guys back on track. (Sometimes, I'm one of those guys, too!)

--Wag--

[John McCorkle]

My wife could ALWAYS shoot better than me unless I went out and practiced first with 500 or 1,000 rounds. She never practiced but dang, she was unbelievable.

Women aren't out there to just blow **** up. They are there to hit their target and they take their time doing it. Most of the women I've taught how to shoot will listen to what you tell them and then do it that way. And within a short time, less than a half hour, they get it down pat. The guys usually go the opposite way. They get it within a short time but lose it as soon as they start rushing the process of learning. It's tough to get those guys back on track. (Sometimes, I'm one of those guys, too!)

--Wag--My experience exactly...there are still playing cards stapled to a wall at our local range my wife shot in half (as it was facing edgewise)...she did this a few years ago on our first trip out to teach her to shoot a rifle.....first time.... embarrassed me man it took me years of practice as a kid to do that.....

I do, however, now always take out the trash in a serpentine manner to the curb and back........

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[GregLaROCHE]

People should be careful not to let their wives hear them arguing about which is the best caliber. If mine ever heard me declare one the best, she would want me to get rid of all the others I have.

[tazman]

People should be careful not to let their wives hear them arguing about which is the best caliber. If mine ever heard me declare one the best, she would want me to get rid of all the others I have.

Good point. Mine is hacking on me for having more than one in the same caliber as well as having several different calibers.

[RU shooter]

In a nutshell folks argue because they don't want to be proven wrong ..... or there reasoning is not valid . I actually enjoy sitting back and reading threads about why someone thinks X is better than Y I get to see things thing from others perspective that I may not have considered before .
And the 32 spl is much better than the 30/30 but my 35 Rem beats them both easily !!!! All those deer I've shot told me so while I was eating them !