New to shooting lead, what is this?

[Stopsign32v]

I figure you guys will know immediately. This is 45 Colt and these bullets http://missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=49&category=5&secondary=14

So what is causing it and how do I clean it? It's hard as sin

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/941/43280501974_2956c24d18_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/28WxTnh)

[S.B.]

I wish I could find some pure lead ingots locally for black powder and older guns.
Steve

[tazman]

That is lead being gas cut off the base of the boolit, escaping through the cylinder gap and plating itself to your revolver.
Depending on how many rounds it took to build up to that level, you may need to clean more often.
Usually soaking the area with gun cleaner or Kroil for a while will loosen the stuff up so it can be removed with a brush or a small flat bladed screwdriver.

[Stopsign32v]

That is lead being gas cut off the base of the boolit, escaping through the cylinder gap and plating itself to your revolver.
Depending on how many rounds it took to build up to that level, you may need to clean more often.
Usually soaking the area with gun cleaner or Kroil for a while will loosen the stuff up so it can be removed with a brush or a small flat bladed screwdriver.

It was 100% clean before going to the range and that was after about 40 rounds. Can it be avoided or minimized?

[SNDBGGR1484]

Hi,

It's a buildup of lead on your forcing cone. A "Lewis Lead Remover" works the best for me to remove the lead buildup.Some people like to use a smashed shell casing to clean the frame area around the barrel.Be careful using sharp pointed objects to clean on the frame cause it's so easy to slip and scratch the frame.

[44Blam]

What is the load under them?
Maybe the load is a little too much for a PB boolit?

[Stopsign32v]

What is the load under them?
Maybe the load is a little too much for a PB boolit?

8gr of Unique. What is "PB"?

[redhawk0]

What is "PB"?

Plain Base....as opposed to GC gas checked.

redhawk

[Guesser]

PB - plain base. as in no gas check on the bullet.
I shoot a lot of cast from several different 45 Colt revolvers and have never had that in 40 rounds. I cast my own and load over 8.5 gr. of Unique. What BHN are your bullets?

[WebMonkey]

plain base.
no gas check

[Stopsign32v]

PB - plain base. as in no gas check on the bullet.
I shoot a lot of cast from several different 45 Colt revolvers and have never had that in 40 rounds. I cast my own and load over 8.5 gr. of Unique. What BHN are your bullets?

Gotta help me out with all of these terms. BHN?

[Hickory]

Looks like undersized boolits causing blowby at the throat.

[tazman]

BHN refers to the hardness of the lead. Brinell scale I believe.

[Stopsign32v]

BHN refers to the hardness of the lead. Brinell scale I believe.

Oh, shows 12 on their site...?

[tazman]

That is a kind of mid range hardness used in pistol rounds and low velocity rifle loads. It is easily achieved with lots of different alloys and works well in the majority of handguns.
You will find that sizing to fit your particular gun will have a larger effect on how well you gun shoots and the accuracy of your loads than the hardness of the boolits in the vast majority of cases.
Sizing to fit revolvers is a bit different than sizing for a semiauto pistol.
I would suggest reading the sticky at the top of the handgun forum about revolver accuracy. It covers things that will help with this as well as other things.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?21598-A-beginner-s-guide-to-revolver-accuracy

[Wayne Smith]

Have you a micrometer? Soft lead? Oh, you are buying your boolits - so go get a soft lead teardrop sinker and slug your barrel. I'm guessing that your boolits are a little small for your barrel. Measure the inside of your barrel with the slug and compare it to the diameter of the boolit you are using. You should be a couple thousands over your groove size. If the boolits aren't that big - that's your problem.

[Stopsign32v]

Have you a micrometer? Soft lead? Oh, you are buying your boolits - so go get a soft lead teardrop sinker and slug your barrel. I'm guessing that your boolits are a little small for your barrel. Measure the inside of your barrel with the slug and compare it to the diameter of the boolit you are using. You should be a couple thousands over your groove size. If the boolits aren't that big - that's your problem.

I do have a micrometer

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Gotta help me out with all of these terms. BHN?

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?107406-Abbreviations-Acronyms-As-Used-on-This-Forum

[KenT7021]

Try some of the Brinell 18 bullets from the Missouri website.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

That is pretty excessive lead buildup for 40 rds, have you checked the cylinder gap?

[Beagle333]

Are you able to push the bullets all the way through your cylinder chambers, or do the get stuck before they come out the other end, just with light pressure using a pencil or some such?

[sghart3578]

Go to a .454" diameter bullet for 45 Colt.

[Stopsign32v]

That is pretty excessive lead buildup for 40 rds, have you checked the cylinder gap?

No I haven't but my other revolver did the same thing. Now I was shooting 2.5cc of Black MZ out of that one! Needless to say it had stout recoil.

[Stopsign32v]

Are you able to push the bullets all the way through your cylinder chambers, or do the get stuck before they come out the other end, just with light pressure using a pencil or some such?

I just tried and no you cannot.

[Stopsign32v]

Go to a .454" diameter bullet for 45 Colt.

Who might sell those?

[tazman]

If you can't push your current boolits through the cylinder, going to a larger boolit will be a complete waste since the cylinder will size the boolits down to the cylinder throat size when fired.
You should find out what size the groove diameter is on your barrel. It is possible you may need the cylinder throats reamed out.
Is there any leading anywhere else in the barrel?
If not, it may just be the boolits are the problem for some reason.

[Stopsign32v]

If you can't push your current boolits through the cylinder, going to a larger boolit will be a complete waste since the cylinder will size the boolits down to the cylinder throat size when fired.
You should find out what size the groove diameter is on your barrel. It is possible you may need the cylinder throats reamed out.
Is there any leading anywhere else in the barrel?
If not, it may just be the boolits are the problem for some reason.

Nope, barrel after the forcing cone is as clean as a whistle. Plus this happened on 2 revolvers and not just this one.

[tazman]

In that case, I would suggest trying a different brand of boolit. Something is wrong with those since they are spraying that much lead.
There are lots of people out there making boolits.

[Stopsign32v]

Anyone have any suggestions for some good 45 Colt lead bullets? LOL

[gpidaho]

I agree with tazman, something is wrong with that batch of bullets to lead that much at the forcing cone unless the revolver is slightly out of time. That seems unlikely in this instance since you say it does that to two different revolvers. Hope you get it figured out because most revolvers will shoot lead bullets more accurately than jacketed ones. Gp

[gpidaho]

Stopsign32v: PM me your address and I'll send you a handful of powder coated 45 bullets. If it leads at all with them something is very wrong with the revolver. Gp

[tazman]

Good idea.

[Beagle333]

Can you take a picture showing the cylinder gaps of the two revolvers so we can compare? It doesn't really look out of time, since the lead seems to be even on both sides of the frame.

[gpidaho]

^^^^^^agreed. Gp

[richhodg66]

Looks like undersized boolits causing blowby at the throat.

I bet this is the problem. Try dropping one through the cylinder, a bullet should stick in the chamber throat. You're getting blow by somehow and commercial cast bullets are often sized too small, cast too hard and use hard lubes that are more for surviving shipping rather than lubing bullets.

[Stopsign32v]

I agree with tazman, something is wrong with that batch of bullets to lead that much at the forcing cone unless the revolver is slightly out of time. That seems unlikely in this instance since you say it does that to two different revolvers. Hope you get it figured out because most revolvers will shoot lead bullets more accurately than jacketed ones. Gp

That's the thing, both revolvers were grouping very well with these bullets!


Stopsign32v: PM me your address and I'll send you a handful of powder coated 45 bullets. If it leads at all with them something is very wrong with the revolver. Gp

I have some Xtreme copper plated bullets I could use. Sounds dumb but I really like the pure lead 45 Colt bullets for the old look they give.

[44Blam]

That's the thing, both revolvers were grouping very well with these bullets!



I have some Xtreme copper plated bullets I could use. Sounds dumb but I really like the pure lead 45 Colt bullets for the old look they give.

But... PC'd boolits look way cooler!
225458

[Grmps]

If you want the lead look, PC with clear

[303Guy]

Just a quick question - how does an undersized boolit lead the forcing cone and barrel face? That would mean gas cutting in the cylinder. A larger diameter boolit would seal the cylinder so it would not matter if it sized the boolit down.

The other puzzling thing is that this deposit is hard? Why would lead deposit from gas cutting be hard?

I've had severe gas cutting in a revolver where the rifling impression basically stood proud of the boolit. They shot fine and there was no leading in the bore (softer lead shot better - apparently bumping up in the forcing cone).

[Stephen Cohen]

Just a quick question - how does an undersized boolit lead the forcing cone and barrel face? That would mean gas cutting in the cylinder. A larger diameter boolit would seal the cylinder so it would not matter if it sized the boolit down.

The other puzzling thing is that this deposit is hard? Why would lead deposit from gas cutting be hard?

I've had severe gas cutting in a revolver where the rifling impression basically stood proud of the boolit. They shot fine and there was no leading in the bore (softer lead shot better - apparently bumping up in the forcing cone).

I think I see where your going with this 303Guy. I read of a test was done some years back, where the barrel was removed from a revolver and then fired and the captured bullet showed signs of having expanded before being captured, I doubt this problem was caused by an undersized bullet. I have seen one case like this on a 686 revolver in 357 and the problem was from firing un lubed bullets, I suspect the problem with revolver in this case was bad lube which was not up to the task or perhaps the bullet being seated and crimped in one operation and leaving a lead ring at mouth of round which caused the problem mentioned. Regards Stephen

[bedbugbilly]

+1 to JonB - what is your cylinder gap? What is the pistol?

Like already said - that's pretty excessive for 40 rounds.

[Stopsign32v]

+1 to JonB - what is your cylinder gap? What is the pistol?

Like already said - that's pretty excessive for 40 rounds.

Actually it's less than 40rds. I didn't factor in the lever action rounds I shot. So in reality this is probably from less than 20 rounds.

These are a pair of Uberti SAAs (not consecutive)

[Stopsign32v]

I was told that maybe I crimped these too much and that is causing this issue?

[tazman]

I was told that maybe I crimped these too much and that is causing this issue?

Unlikely. Normally that won’t peel lead off a boolit.

[Beagle333]

Too much crimp can cause some problems, but I don't see it causing the lead spray around the forcing cone that you're getting.

[Stopsign32v]

These bullets have been sitting for the better part of 3 years, doubt that has anything to do with it but I don't know.

[mdi]

I got some of this (although not as severe) when the bullets I used were .003"+ larger than the cylinder throats. Also there appeared to be some "lead spray" on the cylinder face. I would measure the cylinder throats and size (or purchase) bullets the same diameter as a start.

[Guesser]

I shoot a Ubertti 45 Colt, never seen this on mine.

[Stopsign32v]

I got some of this (although not as severe) when the bullets I used were .003"+ larger than the cylinder throats. Also there appeared to be some "lead spray" on the cylinder face. I would measure the cylinder throats and size (or purchase) bullets the same diameter as a start.

Measure the cylinder throats with some .454" cap and ball rounds pushed through?

[Outpost75]

I'm REALLY surprised that nobody has identified the correct failure mechanism or recognizes what is actually happening.

Your photos show the typical leading result caused by commercial cast bullets which are too hard and undersized for the throats, in a load which is inadequate to upset the hard bullet for a correct gas-seal in the cylinder throats, being aggravated by hard commercial bullet lube which does not flow to coat the bore under pressure. Everything is wrong.

This is THE classic recipe for revolver leading, characterized by gas leakage around the bullet which washes lead from the surface, depositing it in the forcing cone, barrel extension and frame.

If you used SOFTER bullets of 8-12 BHN, such as COWW, 1:20, 1:25 or even 1:30 tin-lead, sizing bullets to the same size or no more than 0.001" smaller than the cylinder throats actually pin-out, IGNORING the groove diameter of your barrel (which doesn't matter), then use a standard book load, in .45 Colt 6.5-7.0 grains of Bullseye or 8.0-8.5 grains of Unique or 8.5-9.5 of Herco AND a SOFT lube which you can squish with your fingers, the leading will stop because the bullets will then FIT and SEAL and the lube will flow to provide an ablative coating to the bore which prevents vaporous lead blown off the bullet surface from adhering to the bore. This is a basic study in strength of materials, mechanics, thermodynamics, heat transfer and fluid flow, which are predictable through finite element analysis if you know an engineering student needing a lab project.

The reason commercial cast bullets are hard, is because they can buy pre-mixed alloy in ton heat lots, the hard metal casts well, looks pretty and isn't damaged in shipping. The hard commercial lube feeds well through progressive loading machines, but in most cases hard bullets and hard lubes are a sure recipe for failure in standard pressure revolver loads developing less than about 20,000 psia. They work better in full-charge .45 ACP and 9mm loads for which these materials are better suited.

If you don't cast your own bullets and want to buy some to try, I would recommend these from Matt's:

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=261

He has them in either .452 or .454. His lube is soft and his alloy is not excessively hard, more like COWW + 2% tin, which works well for full charge loads in the .45 Colt in the range of 14,000-16,000 psi, suitable for modern Colt clones.

[Stopsign32v]

If you don't cast your own bullets and want to buy some to try, I would recommend these from Matt's:

http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=261

He has them in either .452 or .454. His lube is soft and his alloy is not excessively hard, more like COWW + 2% tin, which works well for full charge loads in the .45 Colt in the range of 14,000-16,000 psi, suitable for modern Colt clones.

Thanks for the advice, I will check him out. Rather pricey though...

Why do you suggest that one over this one? http://www.mattsbullets.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=71&products_id=279

[mdi]

Measure the cylinder throats with some .454" cap and ball rounds pushed through?

The best way would be to measure with pin/plug gauges. But I have slugged cylinders just like I do the barrel. I prefer a slug .005"-.010" over the throat diameter but I have used soft cast bullets .003"-.005" over throat diameter. There are other good methods (ball gauges, small hole gaugeshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDuluUyIph8 , etc.) but calipers aren't accurate for small diameter IDs. Personally, I don't consider "push through", "snug", or "drop through" to be measurements and I like to know, in thousandths, what the diameter is...

[Stopsign32v]

The best way would be to measure with pin/plug gauges. But I have slugged cylinders just like I do the barrel. I prefer a slug .005"-.010" over the throat diameter but I have used soft cast bullets .003"-.005" over throat diameter. There are other good methods (ball gauges, small hole gaugeshttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDuluUyIph8 , etc.) but calipers aren't accurate for small diameter IDs. Personally, I don't consider "push through", "snug", or "drop through" to be measurements and I like to know, in thousandths, what the diameter is...

So this would work good? https://www.grainger.com/product/WESTWARD-Small-Hole-Gage-4KU94

[Wheelguns 1961]

You want a set of minus pin gauges. You can get them reasonably on ebay, sometimes. .251-.500.

[Mal Paso]

Until 9/4/18 MSC Direct has The 250 piece Minus set for $99.99. KB86463023 is the order number otherwise $222.77 mcsdirect.com

[Mal Paso]

So this would work good? https://www.grainger.com/product/WESTWARD-Small-Hole-Gage-4KU94

Pin Gauges are better. Expanding gauges that have to be measured are not as accurate.

[Stopsign32v]

I guess I'm going to buy a pot and just start making my own bullets...

[gpidaho]

Stopsign32v: That's the best way. On your first try it might be a good idea to put in an order for your choice of alloy from the site sponsor Rotometals. That will eliminate one problem that you may encounter from an unknown alloy contamination. Good luck and happy casting. Gp

[Hickory]

I'm REALLY surprised that nobody has identified the correct failure mechanism or recognizes what is actually happening. the typical leading result caused by commercial cast bullets which are too hard and undersized for the throats

I think I mentioned this.

[Stopsign32v]

Stopsign32v: That's the best way. On your first try it might be a good idea to put in an order for your choice of alloy from the site sponsor Rotometals. That will eliminate one problem that you may encounter from an unknown alloy contamination. Good luck and happy casting. Gp

Yea it only makes sense really. I'll be using lead bullets for 38 special, 44-40, 45 Colt, and 00 Buckshot as of now.

[Echo]

If I knew what I was talking about, I would say the bullets are undersized for the cylinder throats - but I'm a noobie. What I'm looking at seems to be mild splatter, or melted bits, cast off the bullet as it leaves the cylinder and gets deposited around the bbl...

[Gohon]

The OP stated the BHN was 12, that's not a overly hard cast. He also said they were .452 size which most likely is to small in size. He also mentioned the bullets had been sitting around for 3 years. With the cheap lube some casters use these days there seems to be a good chance the lube had dried to a hardness beyond use. Off hand I'd say undersized and no/bad lube was the culprit, especially since this occurred in two different guns.

[Stopsign32v]

Could a few thick coats of ALOX fix this possibly?

[Dusty Bannister]

Could a few thick coats of ALOX fix this possibly?

THIN coats not thick coats. Thick coats will just gum things up and make even a worse mess than you already have.

[Stopsign32v]

THIN coats not thick coats. Thick coats will just gum things up and make even a worse mess than you already have.

Ok I'll try some of that this evening. Going to go shooting again tomorrow so I'll take the cleaned revolver and run about 30 rounds through it and report tomorrow.

[fredj338]

Try some of the Brinell 18 bullets from the Missouri website.

Harder isn't going to help if the bullets are undersize.
Are you shooting 0.452"? What are the cyl throat in size? A good chance the cyl throats are on the small side & sizing the bullet down & it is getting gas cutting. Trying pushing a new bullet thru each cyl throat. If it doesn't fall thru or push thru with a tiny bit of effort, the throats are probably too small.

[Stopsign32v]

Harder isn't going to help if the bullets are undersize.
Are you shooting 0.452"? What are the cyl throat in size? A good chance the cyl throats are on the small side & sizing the bullet down & it is getting gas cutting. Trying pushing a new bullet thru each cyl throat. If it doesn't fall thru or push thru with a tiny bit of effort, the throats are probably too small.

You cannot physically push a bullet through any of the cylinders by hand with a pencil, no matter the force you apply. The bullets are .452

[Stopsign32v]

So shooting tomorrow morning I made up 50 with some ALOX. Couldn't let them sit overnight so I popped them in the oven @ 220*. Well that melted all of the blue lube from Missouri Bullet Co. Not sure if they are usable or not? They are coated with ALOX now but no blue groove lube.

[tazman]

Not a problem. Go ahead and shoot them. The Alox by itself should be enough.

[Beagle333]

The Alox will work.

[Stopsign32v]

Well for anyone that cares I heated the same bullets which in turn melted the blue Missouri Co lube, oops. But I coated the bullets in 2 coats of ALOX and then loaded them up with 2.5cc of Black MZ.

Here is the result after 50 rounds!

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1867/44113688201_94d6f005e0_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/2adbbB4)

https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1838/42304443190_d1d5cb436f_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/27sik6y)

[Dusty Bannister]

Why change from the powder that you had been using? Source of your reloading data?

[Dusty Bannister]

Please delete, double post.

[Stopsign32v]

Why change from the powder that you had been using? Source of your reloading data?

I use a range of loads for 45 Colt. I was in the mood for smoke today.

Edit: I just got your PM Dusty and thanks but you are a bit incorrect about this. All black powder subtitles do not require black powder lube. In this case what I am using is non corrosive and uses smokeless lube. Also Black MZ is not air pocket sensitive however I did load these cases up for a slight compression which is still perfectly safe.

[Dusty Bannister]

When I looked at the powder warnings, it did say that the bullet should be seated on the powder. But I was not able to access any data for handguns. SO, since you are new to cast bullets, it was a significant concern when you suddenly changed the whole subject from a known powder to something totally away from the original cartridge in the same thread. At least put out better information when you make these changes and it would always be nice to refer to the data source, just in case something is being overlooked. Thank you for clearing up why you are using a smokeless powder lube. Dusty

[KenH]

Isn't that a tad better than before? That has 50 shots while the first photo you posted had around 20 shots (I think you said?). It seems like the first photo might be a "little" worse lead deposit than this photo with 50 shots. I'm not at all sure.

You've confirmed the cylinder is not over sized for the bullets you're shooting at .452". I'm not sure if they're too large since you can't push them thru. Maybe you could "knock" a bullet thru and mic the "sized" bullet?

These other folks are MUCH more the expert than me, just tossing out some ideas.

edit: Oops, ya'll posted while I was typing up my thoughts.

[Stopsign32v]

I think it obviously was the lube to blame. This time there was no lead buildup. What you see above is what is left that I couldn't remove from the first trip. No lead with the ALOX, I might be using that from now on. Or that 45/45/10 I keep reading about

[KenH]

That's great news - it sounds like you've solved the problem now. I've used Alox since the '70s and always felt it was the best lube by far. Now I use Smoke's Clear powder coat. I like clear so the bullet still looks like a bullet, and with PC there's no worry about leading.

[Beagle333]

Congrats on getting it shooting again! Scanning back through the thread, it looks like Stephen Cohen had the correct answer.
Happy shooting! :Fire:

[murf205]

Stopsign, go to Meyer Gage Company's web page and look at the individual pin gage prices. You can buy what you are looking for @ $3.36 per gage and believe me, it's well worth the $ to know exactly what your revolvers throats measure. I start small, .450 and go up in 1 1/000 increments to .456 and it's only $23.52 + shipping, which is usual a small amount for only 7 pins. You will never regret buying them. As far as buying a pot and starting to cast your own, get to it brother. You will never be a slave to boolit shortages or availability and you will know exactly what you are feeding your guns. Besides you have access to some of the most eager and helpful casters right here on this site that will help you down the trail.