SWC design differences?

[am44mag]

I've been thinking about this lately. I'm a huge fan of Elmer Keith, yet I'm sad to say I do not own a mold for any of his designs. I've been lusting over the Lyman/Ideal 429421, or more specifically NOE's 434421. What I've been wonder is, are they actually better designs than something like LEE's 240gr 44 cal SWC? Do they actually give you better accuracy, better performance, or really anything, or are all SWCs the same?

[tazman]

When you consider what happens with a boolit leaving the cylinder and entering the barrel through the forcing cone of a revolver, I have to wonder how any SWC design can get the best accuracy.
The advantage to an SWC design is the square shoulder of the front driving band. It tends to cut a clean hole in paper and possibly(not certain of this as opinions vary) in flesh. This doesn't make it particularly accurate.
A round flat nose(RF) design is better suited to enter the barrel more consistently in line with the bore. The tapered shape of the nose will help pull the boolit in line with the bore if it is slightly off center since it more closely matches the shape of the forcing cone. It helps "funnel" the boolit into the barrel. The leading edge of an SWC is squared off as cast and will tend to deform if it hits the forcing cone on the way into the barrel.
If your revolver has the chambers of the cylinder perfectly in line with the bore, you can shoot anything with excellent accuracy as far as alignment is concerned.
I suspect few revolvers are that perfect with every chamber in the cylinder.
As far as Keith's SWC designs being more accurate, it would have to do with the nose shape and how well it aids in efficiency in the air at longer ranges. That part I can't answer for you.
If you are looking for effects on flesh for hunting or self defense, the RF designs give you a larger front surface area to increase the impact area available for wounding.

[Petrol & Powder]

I've always been a bit skeptical about the increased accuracy of a round nose bullet vs a SWC attributed to the round nose bullet's perceived increased ability to align the cylinder with the barrel/forcing cone.
Now, before everyone gets mad and starts telling me how forcing cones work, allow me to say that I know the mechanics involved.

I understand the cylinder of a S&W or Ruger has a little bit of play at the moment of firing and the forcing cone will allow the cylinder to align with the bore as the bullet passes from the cylinder throat to the forcing cone. The theory is the gentle profile of the round nose bullet allows for that alignment to occur with less damage to the bullet than the sharp shoulder of the SWC.
I'm not convinced the difference is great enough to be significant.
In terms of cylinder alignment while the bullet transitions from the throat to the forcing cone, we're asking a LOT of that soft lead bullet. I'm just not convinced a little potential damage to the first driving band of a SWC is any different in the long run to a little damage to a round nose bullet.
There could be other factors involved in the accuracy of the round nose design or there just could be other factors in individual guns/cartridges; I don't know.

I will say that the SWC design works well enough that I don't see a huge need for a round nose / flat point bullet to replace a SWC. I'm not saying the RNFP is bad I just think the SWC is a good all-around design and more than just adequate.

[Rick Hodges]

It seems that pure wadcutters are accurate enough in a revolver, at least for almost every accuracy contest involving 38 specials, yes I know they are easier to score on the target, but if they were appreciably less accurate than the RN no one would use them.

I think one might find more difference between guns than projectiles. One would favor the RN and another the SWC.

[Mal Paso]

Of the current offerings I like the MP 503 clone (432-256). I have 4c brass and 6c aluminum. The crimp grooves are perfect for a 44 and great accuracy. I had the 434421 but I shoot .431" and quit using it when the #503 came along.

It looks like Lee's current 250g SWC is tumble tube. To my mind that puts it out of the running for full power loads unless you can find an old one.

[Bigslug]

A lot of it will come down to this simple question: "How nuts do you want to get?"

Personally, I don't seriously shoot National Match Bullseye competition, nor do I have any interest in making a handgun do a rifle's job. If I can hold heart and lungs of a large mammal with a pistol to maybe 100 yards, delivering catastrophic damage when it gets there, I'm happy and don't see a need for any further lily-gilding. Operating in that land of good enough is good enough, it is easy to achieve that functional level of performance with most any bullet that fits the gun somewhat well with a little alloy and load tinkering. If you for some reason need to take it further than that, your best bet will be to seriously pin-gauge each of your six chambers, figure out what the diameters are and where they change, and have Tom at Accurate Molds cut you one with the bands, tapers, and grooves located for that gun.

[gwpercle]

Are all SWC's the same ? Of course not. Can an accurate load with the Lee design boolit be worked up in your revolver...Of Course !
The difference isn't so much the boolit design but how much more pleasant it is use to use that NOE mould over the Lyman and ,last but not least ,the Lee.
It's like driving a car, 2018 Lexus (NOE) , 2012 Ford F-150 (Lyman) or 1967 Chevelle with no heater or ac and in need of a tune up . All of them will get you around...how nice do you want the ride to be.

[rockshooter]

I use both RNF and SWC and find that the RNF feeds much better in lever action rifles but I've never found any accuracy differences
Loren

[Mal Paso]

Lyman makes excellent casting molds, the problem has been small bullets and occasional quality control problems. A good Lyman mold is a treasure.

[Wally]

Lee still offers a .44 Cal 240 SWC-GC, which I use and find quite accurate: thankfully I make my own GCs. I also use the Lee 240 SWC-TL, but find that I will get some leading with it. I typically load to 1,000~1,100 FPS.



Of the current offerings I like the MP 503 clone (432-256). I have 4c brass and 6c aluminum. The crimp grooves are perfect for a 44 and great accuracy. I had the 434421 but I shoot .431" and quit using it when the #503 came along.

It looks like Lee's current 250g SWC is tumble tube. To my mind that puts it out of the running for full power loads unless you can find an old one.

[Wally]

Not sure why the Lyman 429667 (240 RNF) is not more popular. It has a wide nose, as does the 419241, and "self-centers" in the forcing cone. Lyman also offers a 245 RN 429383 which seemingly few use. I have also tried the Lee 240 RN, but it casts out very heavy..at 265 grains. The Lee RN is also "self centering"; the Lyman is a cylindrical bullet with a round nose.



When you consider what happens with a boolit leaving the cylinder and entering the barrel through the forcing cone of a revolver, I have to wonder how any SWC design can get the best accuracy.
The advantage to an SWC design is the square shoulder of the front driving band. It tends to cut a clean hole in paper and possibly(not certain of this as opinions vary) in flesh. This doesn't make it particularly accurate.
A round flat nose(RF) design is better suited to enter the barrel more consistently in line with the bore. The tapered shape of the nose will help pull the boolit in line with the bore if it is slightly off center since it more closely matches the shape of the forcing cone. It helps "funnel" the boolit into the barrel. The leading edge of an SWC is squared off as cast and will tend to deform if it hits the forcing cone on the way into the barrel.
If your revolver has the chambers of the cylinder perfectly in line with the bore, you can shoot anything with excellent accuracy as far as alignment is concerned.
I suspect few revolvers are that perfect with every chamber in the cylinder.
As far as Keith's SWC designs being more accurate, it would have to do with the nose shape and how well it aids in efficiency in the air at longer ranges. That part I can't answer for you.
If you are looking for effects on flesh for hunting or self defense, the RF designs give you a larger front surface area to increase the impact area available for wounding.

[mdi]

Personally, I question the "aligns in the forcing cone" theory mainly because the full wadcutter in 38 Special has been used a bizillion times and extremely accurate in revolvers. I don't think any alignment takes place when a lead bullet is pushed through a forcing cone in milliseconds with 15,000 lbs behind it, rather the bullet, no matter what shape, will be distorted/swaged/cut as itpasses through the forcing cone...

[Wally]

I shoot a lot of WC cast bullets in many calibers.....I would surmise that they are so accurate as they provide the greatest body contact possible out of all the bullet shapes. As the bullet enters the forcing cone much of its' body is still held tightly in the cylinder chamber/throat. If the forcing cone is slightly out of line, the bullet will be still engaged enough in the cylinder throat to align it in the forcing cone.

[GLynn41]

I think that wad cutters are as accurate as they are because they are soft so they can obturate, slow with low pressures behind them, as well with all body, no nose for balance
I have a Lyman 410459 and the shoulders on it do cut flesh based on the deer and ground hogs.. like a cookie cutter-- the base of the nose were it meets the shoulder is smaller than my Saeco .411 230.. the Saeco does not cut paper with its shoulder and I have shot nothing else with it...the Saeco acts like a LF..
That Lyman mold shoot very well but only has a .255 meplat -- heart shot has given about a thumb sized hole in the heart. Personally I have never noticed
the shoulders on these molds being damaged with seems like damage from the forcing cone... my .2

[beagle]

I guess it depends on what your needs are in a SWC. Being and older caster, I tend to favor the old classic Keith designs as that's what I grew up with. Depends on what you need. Almost any SWC will work at closer ranges. I like to plink at ranges up to 200 yards if I have a good backstop and dusty conditions. At these ranges, the 429421, the 358429 and the 410459 are my "go to" designs. I also own the "big Keiths" the H & G #326 and #328 which run about 275 and 320 grains and they show the same characteristics as other Keith designs in shooting. But, I shoot mostly Ruger Blackhawks where cylinder length is not critical. I have shot S & Ws where it was and dropped back to the 358156 and 358477.
All SWCs with some exceptions (the 357446 and the 429360 from my experiences) will do the job.
I have also adhered to the RN throat centering theory which was Keith's belief. This works for me in some calibers and in some it don't. In the .38 Special and .357 Magnum, it works. In the .44s, it doesn't for me. I don't have much faith in the 429383 in either the Special or Magnum as the SWC design outperforms it hands down. In the .45s, it works as either the 452374 or the 454190 do well for me in the .45s.
You just have to tailor your bullet design for your needs or in some cases, the particular gun. MHO./beagle

[murf205]

I've been thinking about this lately. I'm a huge fan of Elmer Keith, yet I'm sad to say I do not own a mold for any of his designs. I've been lusting over the Lyman/Ideal 429421, or more specifically NOE's 434421. What I've been wonder is, are they actually better designs than something like LEE's 240gr 44 cal SWC? Do they actually give you better accuracy, better performance, or really anything, or are all SWCs the same?
As far as performance on game, the "Elmer" boolit is a great killer. It is especially good on raking shots where the game is not perfectly broadside (like on tv hunting shows) and it penetrates as straight as an arrow. I have shot more of them than anything else and the accuracy has always been good but....the guns I was shooting them in shot about anything well so I could not tell any practical difference. I never had a poor shooting revolver that RN boolits helped any. My Lee 240 gr swc mold cast one of the most accurate boolits any of my 44's, spl or mag. A good alternative to what you are asking would be one of Veral Smith's LBT LFN or WFN molds. They have a large flat meplate and a tapered nose of indeed they self center in the forcing cone. I guess the only way we could know for sure would be to start one out of the cylinder crooked and see if it self centers but it would take some special equipment to test that.

[am44mag]

After doing some thinking I'm not going to get rid of my LEE SWC, but I'm going to pick up that NOE anyways. They are a treat to cast with, and I just really want a Keith design. Specifically that one. :D

BTW, my hunting load for my 44 mag Rossi 92 is a LEE 200gr RNFP. That little bullet is screaming out of that 20" barrel at 2000 FPS. Has a pretty good kick to it too. That steel crescent buttplate doesn't help things either.

[gwpercle]

Every boolit caster should have at least one "Keith" mould , just for historical reasons .

I got one of NOE's special Elmer Keith "Signature " moulds about two years ago , it looks so nice I keep it on my desk as a work of art . As soon as the "newness" wears off I might use it , it's just so good looking .
I have other Lyman moulds so it's not like I'm short on Keith style SWC's .
Gary

[murf205]

After doing some thinking I'm not going to get rid of my LEE SWC, but I'm going to pick up that NOE anyways. They are a treat to cast with, and I just really want a Keith design. Specifically that one. :D

BTW, my hunting load for my 44 mag Rossi 92 is a LEE 200gr RNFP. That little bullet is screaming out of that 20" barrel at 2000 FPS. Has a pretty good kick to it too. That steel crescent buttplate doesn't help things either.
That crescent butt plate is not the most comfortable in the world but the next time you shoot it, notice how it helps keep the rifle from moving on your shoulder and keeping the sights on target while working the lever.

[Echo]

Lyman makes excellent casting molds, the problem has been small bullets and occasional quality control problems. A good Lyman mold is a treasure.
I wn't buy a new Lyman mold, but I have several Ideal molds that do a great job. I had a 4-banger Lyman 452397 (I think!) RN that threw small boolits, 450-51 diameter. I sent it back to Lyman asking them to recut the cavities - they wouldn't, saying they might hurt their cherry, but gave me a good price on a new 4-banger - which I declined...

[S.B.]

I'd love to own a 429421 only with 300 grain bullets (no gas check)in two cavity mold?
Steve

[murf205]

S.B., Accurate Molds has a 285 gr that is a very close one to what your looking for. It is # 43-285B, and Tom makes some beautiful molds. My 263gr NOE throws a 270gr boolit with my mixture and it is a flat out great shooter in my 44's. IIRC, Tom will cut one of his 300 gr GC molds without the GC. Either one will penetrate into the next zip code.

[S.B.]

murf205, How do I talk to this guy no email listed only phone number to be used for credit card disputes(as per website) snail mail, no thanks?
Steve

[alamogunr]

murf205, How do I talk to this guy no email listed only phone number to be used for credit card disputes(as per website) snail mail, no thanks?
Steve

Your loss. I've only ordered one mold so far from him and had to put that one on hold for a couple of weeks because of a question about my pistol. The order form went electronically from the website and all other communication was by email. Email is under "Contact" tab on his website(tom@accuratemolds.com). Tom responds to emails very quickly. I asked him to hold the payment I had made until I reconciled the problem with my gun. When I felt confident about the mold, I emailed him with the changes to my order and had the mold within 2 weeks.

I will be ordering more molds from Tom with no reservations.

[S.B.]

alamogunr, I emailed him as you suggested no email under contact on website? You say, you've only done one mold from him?
Steve

[murf205]

He has answered my emails very promptly as well Steve. I've ordered 2 molds from him and some flat point nose punches and he responded pretty quickly.

[Mal Paso]

Tom is a one man shop. Would you want him taking a phone call in the middle of Your Mold? Email is Better!

As I recall the one thing stopping me from ordering a Keith from Accurate was the forward paper punching band had to be 60 degrees. I looked to see if that had changed but didn't see anything. You might ask.

[alamogunr]

It is the second line on the Contact page. Looks like this:

tom@accuratemolds.com
Accurate Molds, LLC

Don't try to copy and paste. For some reason the copy is corrupted.

Because the company name is bold, it is easy to miss.

[Walks]

Tom at ACCURATE is a SAINT. I did a real stupid and had to send the mold back to him. He fixed it at no charge.
I am champing at the bit to start casting with the "fixed" mold, but it arrived back home along with the Heat Wave. So I'm waiting impatiently for a bit of cool to start casting again.

Wally,
The reason the LYMAN #429667 is not more popular is that the VAST Majority of COWBOY ACTION SHOOTERS prefer a 200gr bullet in .44 caliber.
Plus they just dropped the 4cavity mold.
I brought one of the last 4cav molds. SEVERELY UNDERSIZED, Had to send it back, and send it back again. Finally they came through. But it was a four month nightmare. While I was waiting for LYMAN to come through, I bought a N.O.E. TL-432-243-RF. I just love that N.O.E. mold. It drops perfect bullets 99 of of a 100. The LYMAN mold is finally casting big enough to at least size .4305 , but I Don't like the bevel base. Get the N.O.E. it has a Beautiful flat base.

But when all is said and done I've been shooting KEITH SWC's my whole life. Prefer them for all paper punching and plinking. Killed a few things with 'em too.