Anyone else stop fluxing?

[Oldbrowngun]

The last few batches of wheel weights i've processed, I stopped fluxing. I just stir the lead and pull out the dirt that comes up. When using my bottom pour pot I can say i've noticed no difference in castings of bullet accuracy ect. Anyone else find this? Im fairly new and still learning, so if im being stupid, feel free to let me know.

[earlmck]

I'm with you browngun -- haven't fluxed in years. I figure that is why God invented bottom-pour pots. That said, I do appreciate the beautiful clean double-fluxed ingots produced by some of our vendors.

[toallmy]

I'm not shore if what I do would be considered fluxing when I'm cooking down scrap lead , a shot of old used motor oil burned off makes a nasty fire but a nice ingot .:redneck:

[lightman]

I'm just the opposite. I probably flux even more now than I did years ago. Especially when smelting scrap.

[toallmy]

I have never had a problem with impurities in the mix after stirring and skimming , I ladle out from the middle of the smelting pot into muffin pans . A small piece of bee's wax in the bottom pore when refilling cleans up the top of the casting pot nicely as well .

[jmort]

"I'm just the opposite. I probably flux even more now than I did years ago. Especially when smelting scrap."

^^^ This
More fluxing
More better
What quality alloy do you want in your melting pot???

[RU shooter]

For the wee little bit of effort it takes why not throw a little flux into the smelting pot or give it a stir or two with a piece of wood. I probably flux more than is needed but it makes me feel better about the finished product.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

The last few batches of wheel weights i've processed, I stopped fluxing. I just stir the lead and pull out the dirt that comes up. When using my bottom pour pot I can say i've noticed no difference in castings of bullet accuracy ect. Anyone else find this? Im fairly new and still learning, so if im being stupid, feel free to let me know.

Unless your wheel weights are cleaned and paint-free, you "ARE" fluxing.


Saw dust is an excellent flux for COWW (bonus, it's free)... it's what I use.

[reddog81]

You might be able to get by without fluxng. Is there some benefit to not fluxing? It takes less than a minute and gets rid of crud you don't want that could cause problems.

The few batches of wheel weights I've processed were pretty dirty so I'd consider fluxing a must with them.

[Gtek]

Keeping the heat as low as possible and stirring with a piece Cedar shim has been working pretty well for me.

[SwampShooter]

Okay let me preface this by saying I Just finished my first smelt of COWW last weekend. I have however been involved in casting metal (brass/bronze/aluminum) to some extent for a long time. Since this was the first time working with lead specifically for bullet casting I was paying very close attention to what was happening. I noticed that before fluxing with paraffin the clips floating on top were partially covered with alloy, afterwards they were covered in soot and totally alloy free. I also noticed that there actually was material to scrape off of the walls and bottom of my crucible (okay it was just a pot), that material was not there before. Since I certainly did not add enough flux to generate that much material I would have to say it was in the alloy before but not attached to the walls. Now this is a single data point from someone who was doing this for the first time but it seemed pretty cut and dry, fluxing not only keeps the more alloy in the pot but removes a bunch of junk. Unless I was inside where the smoke and fire could be an issue is see no reason to not flux. From a safety/health point of view I won't be doing this in a place that I can't make some smoke anyway so that is a moot point.

Now just to play devils advocate, what are the potential consequences of not fluxing?
Ive read that some of the tin is more likely to be removed. I'll bite, that makes sense. Now assuming I don't mind that what else can happen? These are wheel weights, mine have a fair amount of dirt and brake dust on them. Realistically can those, even in small amounts, cause cylinder/barrel damage? There are lots of ceramic disk brake pads out there. Ceramic is rather abrasive (as a potter I can attest to that), but I don't know if if the amounts involved would have a measurable impact. Kind of like having sand in your shoe, a grain or two shouldn't rub you raw, but a tablespoon certainly can. Are we talking "grains or tablespoons" here?

[Bigslug]

I gave up on sawdust fluxing, concluding that it's hokum. I didn't see the sense in trying to stir super-light carbon ash into a deep pot of super-dense lead for the purpose of it basically doing. . .nothing?

Anything you want to get out of your wheel weights and range lead is considerably lighter than the lead and will float to the top provided you do the stir and scrape sufficiently. It doesn't need an additional life jacket to make it to the surface, and your carbon-ash (being a highly buoyant life jacket), can't be forced deeply enough under the surface to reach what you want to grab, so why bother with it? Between a bottom pour smelter and a bottom pour casting pot, you've floated your crud to the top away from the spigot TWICE before you make a bullet. Ponder it logically - what's going to be left in the lead after that?

The sawdust is handy to help burn off grease & lube puddles, but as far as cleaning the molten metal, I let gravity do that for me.

[waksupi]

I still stir my pot with a stick. It frees up any kitty litter sticking to the inside of the pot, and it seems there is always some sort of other contaminants that surface. A stick goes all the way to the bottom. No way will any light substance applied to the surface do that.

[TaylorS]

I had been scraping the top stirring and scraping again before fluxing as not to loose tin content but maybe I need to stir flux into the pot to get full benifits


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[mdi]

When I "smelt" I flux to get clean alloy. I use what ever is handy like sawdust, candle wax/old lube and charcoal, etc.. When I'm casting stir (vigorously) with a rough cut wooden stick.

[redhawk0]

If you have Dirty WW...then the oils, greases, dirt..etc is all carbon based...Carbon makes a great flux...that's why sawdust, sticks, leaves...etc make good flux. So in essence..you really are fluxing without even knowing it.

redhawk

[FLINTNFIRE]

I throw some sawdust and wood residue in when melting any scrap along with a good blast or 2 of used oil makes the lead flow easier , in casting pot (bottom pour ) I use cat litter and stir with a stick easy enough to do , use whatever you like or however you find works for you.

[Oldbrowngun]

You might be able to get by without fluxng. Is there some benefit to not fluxing? It takes less than a minute and gets rid of crud you don't want that could cause problems.

The few batches of wheel weights I've processed were pretty dirty so I'd consider fluxing a must with them.

Having to try and bum some sawdust from lowes or home depot. Having to store a bucket of sawdust along with my other dozens of items for casting/reloading ect. When using parafin, even the goodwill seems to want a hefty price for it. And I end up with a black wet substance on top thats harder to skim out then the crud that floats to the top. I've simply not noticed a difference then stirring several times and skimming the top my lead looks just as clean and performs the same either way. So why bother?

[Oldbrowngun]

If you have Dirty WW...then the oils, greases, dirt..etc is all carbon based...Carbon makes a great flux...that's why sawdust, sticks, leaves...etc make good flux. So in essence..you really are fluxing without even knowing it.

redhawk

Maybe this is why I dont have to flux lol. I dont know, I just know that I honestly notice no difference so I dont bother any longer.

[Oldbrowngun]

Okay let me preface this by saying I Just finished my first smelt of COWW last weekend. I have however been involved in casting metal (brass/bronze/aluminum) to some extent for a long time. Since this was the first time working with lead specifically for bullet casting I was paying very close attention to what was happening. I noticed that before fluxing with paraffin the clips floating on top were partially covered with alloy, afterwards they were covered in soot and totally alloy free. I also noticed that there actually was material to scrape off of the walls and bottom of my crucible (okay it was just a pot), that material was not there before. Since I certainly did not add enough flux to generate that much material I would have to say it was in the alloy before but not attached to the walls. Now this is a single data point from someone who was doing this for the first time but it seemed pretty cut and dry, fluxing not only keeps the more alloy in the pot but removes a bunch of junk. Unless I was inside where the smoke and fire could be an issue is see no reason to not flux. From a safety/health point of view I won't be doing this in a place that I can't make some smoke anyway so that is a moot point.

Now just to play devils advocate, what are the potential consequences of not fluxing?
Ive read that some of the tin is more likely to be removed. I'll bite, that makes sense. Now assuming I don't mind that what else can happen? These are wheel weights, mine have a fair amount of dirt and brake dust on them. Realistically can those, even in small amounts, cause cylinder/barrel damage? There are lots of ceramic disk brake pads out there. Ceramic is rather abrasive (as a potter I can attest to that), but I don't know if if the amounts involved would have a measurable impact. Kind of like having sand in your shoe, a grain or two shouldn't rub you raw, but a tablespoon certainly can. Are we talking "grains or tablespoons" here?

Im still fairly new to this but i've done it off and on for a few years and if you had alloy still sticking to the clips then to me it sounds like your alloy simply wasnt up to tempature yet. Once it hits tempature, it doesnt stick to anything.

[Cherokee]

Flux when smelting, lots of flux to clean the junk out.
No fluxing in the casting pot, just add clean ingots and stir some. Skim off any accumulated trash.

[Calamity Jake]

[QUOTE=Oldbrowngun;4425602]The last few batches of wheel weights i've processed, I stopped fluxing. I just stir the lead and pull out the dirt that comes up. When using my bottom pour pot I can say i've noticed no difference in castings of bullet accuracy ect. Anyone else find this? Im fairly new and still learning, so if im being stupid, feel free to let me know.[/QUOT


The next time you render WW, stir and skim per your above statement, when you think the melt is clean, STIR AGAIN, you'll get more dirt.
There is always some amount of dirt/crud in the WW because the weight alone keeps some suspended, fluxing helps remove it.

I stir, skim, stir, skim again then flux, skim, flux again, skim, flux and skim again, even after all that there is still some
amount of dirt suspended in the lead as I can stir again and get more dirt out of the lead.
I like my lead clean.

[longbow]

I ladle pour and I flux fairly often. I do notice a large difference if I don't flux as a "skin" forms on the surface of the lead when it isn't fluxed. This will be oxides and possibly some tin. Fluxing cleans the alloy as already stated and helps it flow better. My understanding is that it also helps return any separated tin though I am not sure that's true, just that it appears to make things mo better is good enough for me. I also like to use old engine oil. It is smoky and nasty but all the skin and goopy stuff is all gone after fluxing and the alloy is clean and shiny and there is dry dust on the surface of the melt so I scoop that off.

I also notice little chunks of "stuff" in the lead (inclusions) if I don't flux regularly. I'll carry on fluxing regularly.

However, if you don't want to flux that's your business. Maybe not an issue with bottom pour pots?

Different strokes.

Longbow

[SwampShooter]

Im still fairly new to this but i've done it off and on for a few years and if you had alloy still sticking to the clips then to me it sounds like your alloy simply wasnt up to tempature yet. Once it hits tempature, it doesnt stick to anything.

I pretty sure it was hot enough, as soon as the flames died down from fluxing no more alloy stuck to the clips. The second and third melt acted exactly the same. Of course if I was just a few degrees low, I suppose the temperature could have gone up enough while the wax was burning off. I'm also not saying that there was "a lot" of alloy sticking to the clips, enough to where I noticed the difference though.

[sureYnot]

I pretty sure it was hot enough, as soon as the flames died down from fluxing no more alloy stuck to the clips. The second and third melt acted exactly the same. Of course if I was just a few degrees low, I suppose the temperature could have gone up enough while the wax was burning off. I'm also not saying that there was "a lot" of alloy sticking to the clips, enough to where I noticed the difference though.I've experienced the same. Bottom line is, if it works, keep doing it.

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[bstone5]

I flux with the flux from Magma Engineering on my Master Caster.
I used saw dust in the past but found some of the carbon would plug the outlet on the Master Caster pot. Ordered the flux from the manufacture of the Master Caster and the lead outlets on the casting pot have stayed clear.

[Lloyd Smale]

I flux 2 or 3 times when smelting ingots. for the most part I don't flux a casting pot. Exception is when I use the lead that was at the bottom of the smelting pot. It seems like it allways has at least some contamination. Its pretty easy to tell. Start up the pot and if it has solids on the top I flux. If its just a oxidized skim on top I don't bother. I just cant see introducing a contaminant into my lead that's not needed.

[Oldbrowngun]

I've experienced the same. Bottom line is, if it works, keep doing it.

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Odd, I dont flux and my clips come out burned looking and with no alloy at all on them.

[sureYnot]

Yeah. It must come down to the temp, I guess. No idea what temp I'm at. I just turn the knob until it works. I might try turning it up a little more next time.
Odd, I dont flux and my clips come out burned looking and with no alloy at all on them.

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[RED BEAR]

I can't say if it is absolutely necessary but I flux the neck out of my melt. Sawdust to get clean ingots . Then after every thing is good and clean only was to recombine alloy when casting. It seems to work for me so I keep doing it. If what you are doing works for you then keep at it. Don't think there are any hard and fast rules set in stone.

[Airman Basic]

BTW, if you use a wooden stick to stir with, make sure it has NO moisture content, for obvious reasons.

[robg]

Do commercial casters flux their alloys?

[Duckiller]

Depending on purity Commercial caster may flux their alloy. When making ingots I usually have greasy, oily wheel weights. Throw in some sawdust if readily available . Most importantly I stir with a wood stick. Not to disagree with Airman Basic but there is NO stick with no moisture content. Stick should not have water dripping off it, just dry to touch. Stir deeply , it will burn and in so doing is fluxing the mix. Ladle off trash and cast pretty clean ingots. You need to do some sort of fluxing to bring dirt/ trash to the surface so you can ladle it off. Clean ingots in a casting pot need minimal fluxing.

[mvozz]

I am fairly new to casting so I tried to read everything I could on the subject including many of the posts on this website. One book that is great is Glen Fryxell's book From Ingot to Target. When it comes to fluxing, if the lead alloy is clean you don't need too much flux but the sawdust becomes a reducing cover that will prevent oxidation. It also reduces the tin to keep it in the melt. I am just new enough to believe someone that has done it for many years so when I add alloy I throw in a bit of sawdust, stir it in and leave the carbon on the top while I cast. The only time I clean it off is when I am changing alloys. So far the results have been excellent from 39 grain 22 cals to 405 grain 45 cals. I think I am sticking with Mr. Fryxell's advice for now.

[RogerDat]

I flux, otherwise what would I do with the three banker boxes filled with planer shavings? I still find a bit of crud makes it through now and again so I figure fluxing cuts down on that and less crud is better.

Ladle cast so the bottom pour thing doesn't apply. I still think I would want to avoid putting crud in a bottom pour pot. Now if I had a bottom pour ingot ladle.... sigh someday.

[lbullock1]

I gave up on sawdust fluxing, concluding that it's hokum. I didn't see the sense in trying to stir super-light carbon ash into a deep pot of super-dense lead for the purpose of it basically doing. . .nothing?

Anything you want to get out of your wheel weights and range lead is considerably lighter than the lead and will float to the top provided you do the stir and scrape sufficiently. It doesn't need an additional life jacket to make it to the surface, and your carbon-ash (being a highly buoyant life jacket), can't be forced deeply enough under the surface to reach what you want to grab, so why bother with it? Between a bottom pour smelter and a bottom pour casting pot, you've floated your crud to the top away from the spigot TWICE before you make a bullet. Ponder it logically - what's going to be left in the lead after that?

The sawdust is handy to help burn off grease & lube puddles, but as far as cleaning the molten metal, I let gravity do that for me.

I believe that the benefit of fluxing with sawdust is not so much its quality as a flux, as its ability to stop oxidation at the surface of the pot. If you can reduce the oxidation of tin, antimony, et al then you maintain a consistent alloy in terms of percentages of the main metals in the alloy.

[sundog]

Best flux I've ever used was elm ripped sawdust, well dried. It even had bits of grass in it from when it was picked up up. Worked even better than cross cut saw dust. It's all used up now, but I've got another elm tree down from last winter that the trunk still has not been cut up up. Some of the bigger pieces will be ripped for some more.

[waco]

This is why we should flux our boolit alloy. It's a short read by a man who knows his stuff.
http://www.lasc.us/FryxellFluxing.htm

[dondiego]

Best flux I've ever used was elm ripped sawdust, well dried. It even had bits of grass in it from when it was picked up up. Worked even better than cross cut saw dust. It's all used up now, but I've got another elm tree down from last winter that the trunk still has not been cut up up. Some of the bigger pieces will be ripped for some more.

Why do you feel that the "ripped" is better than than "crosscut"????? Is it the size? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

[Hannibal]

I haven't stopped using flux, but I did stop pushing any fluxing material down into the melt in the casting pot. Perhaps it would work better, but I find too many inclusions that way, so I just allow the charred fluxing material to float on top to help with oxidation. And that solved my problem with inclusions.

[lightman]

To add to my original post (#4), I flux raw scrap like wheel weights, roofing lead and cable sheathing more than I did in the past because I have discovered that the cleaner the lead that I put in my casting pot the better. In the casting pot I can get by with lightly fluxing one time with wax. It can be argued that wax is really not a flux but I use the term anyway.

I think there were some XFR test on an older thread about wheel weights not being fluxed. If my memory is correct, it didn't make much difference with the alloy just how clean the alloy was.

It can also be argued that wheel weights have enough oil, grease and paint to constitute a flux. Maybe so, maybe not.

[yeahbub]

I recently smelted a fresh batch of WW's and the castability was less than satisfactory in filling out the corners of the driving bands, etc. I flux less often since I got smart enough to cover the alloy with wood ashes to protect it from oxidation, but stirring in the occasional spoonful of stearate and a percent or so of tin can sure change an alloy's attitude for the better. Sharp corners, fine detail and consistent BHN makes for good results on target.

[MT Gianni]

After about 4 years of casting I stopped unless smelting. I took a hard look at the process and started back up within a few months. The last 25 + years I still do. They sell paint with primer in it but you get a better finish if you prime separately. Same with casting, it's attention to the details.

[twidpa]

Stirring and skimming with a wooden spoon sounds good as does using sawdust. No more paraffin for me.
T

[high standard 40]

Stirring and skimming with a wooden spoon sounds good as does using sawdust. No more paraffin for me.
T

Paraffin is very useful as a reductant. I flux with sawdust and skim, then use a small amount of paraffin. The paraffin helps mix all the elements of your alloy.

[Idz]

I sort of don't flux when I smelt bullet-trap range scrap. I use a covered pot so all the tiny bits of wood and targets are reduced to charcoal and carbon monoxide which reduces the metal oxides and cleans things nicely. When casting bullets I leave whatever top crust forms in my bottom pour pot as an oxygen barrier and things seem to work well without fluxing. Friends who flux (over-flux?) seem to have a lot more problems with rusting pots, clogged spouts, mechanical, and electrical difficulties than non-fluxers.

[sundog]

Why do you feel that the "ripped" is better than than "crosscut"????? Is it the size? Doesn't seem to make much sense.

I like it better, because it chars a little more quickly (fluffier) and then I can light it off to reduce the smoke. Crosscut chips work okay, too.

I would imagine any dried, clean hardwood would work good. Elm is what I happen most often around here. All my oak trees are very healthy presently.

[fredj338]

Since I never melt scrap in my casting pots, I flux. Then when casting, I stir with a wooden stick after adding new clean alloy. Fluxing has long been proven to help with good casting. I see no need to try & work against the casting gods.

[higgins]

When smelting, I flux with plenty of paraffin in the form of broken candles and stir with a big stainless steel slotted spoon to remove clips and trash. when casting I flux with a little paraffin and stir with a wooden paint stick.

[yeahbub]

I've not found paraffin to be very effective. Candles containing stearate work well, and any paraffin in them will extend the dwell time allowing the stearate more time to work. Stearate by itself reduces very aggressively, but it burns off rapidly. I mix stearate and paraffin 1:1 and cast it .25" deep in cupcake tins for handy chips to flux with. I've shielded my alloy from exposure to air by using sawdust, but wasn't really paying attention to any reduction that might have taken place. I'll have to take a closer look. What works better, deciduous or coniferous?

[6622729]

I'm fluxing wheel weight ingots with bees wax each time I add some to my pot the scraping the junk off the surface. It's worth the couple of minutes and the bees wax smells good.