Alliant Reloader 7 .44-40

[BobInAus]

w30wcf,
On 12-27-2005, you posted a subject regarding reloader 7 and the 44-40 cartridge –

“Alliant Reloader 7 .44-40 load
Back in March, 2005, there was some discussion regarding the Alliant Reloader 7 data for the .44-40.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview....yword1=44%2D40
To continue........
I did eventually try the 240 gr. cast bullet Alliant load of 23.5 grs. in my '73 (1882) .44-40. It went 1,170 f.p.s. in my rifle's 21" barrel. At 50 yards, the group was just under 1 3/4" with all bullets printing nice round holes in the target even in the slow 1/38" twist barrel.
In a friend's 24" barrel it was almost 100 f.p.s. faster at 1,266 f.p.s. which is close to Alliant's published data of 1,290 f.p.s.
http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview....yword1=44%2D40
A capacity load of RL7 does a nice job of duplicating black powder ballistics with good accuracy in the vintage .44-40.
w30wcf”

You mention that the bullet used in the trial was a 240 gr cast bullet. I have an 1873 Winchester rifle with a 24” barrel and made in 1892. I am looking for a smokeless load that I can use for hunting. My query is, can I use a 205 grn lead bullet using 23.5 grns or some other charge of Reloader 7? Am I mistaken in the assumption that a lighter bullet will create lower pressure?
Hope you can help
Regards
Bob

[Texas by God]

With the same powder charge, the lighter bullet will have less pressure and the same or lower velocity in my experience.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

[earlmck]

Yep, what Texas by God says. Sadly we lost w30wcf last year, the premier expert on loading for 44/40 (and lots of other stuff).

I have done well with about 24 grains of the RL-7 and my 200 grain Lee that casts up about 210 grains, but seem to get the same results with less powder with around 17 grains of Accurate's 5744 (which I understand is very similar to your ADI AR2205).

[MT Chambers]

There are plenty of better powders for the 44/40 which allow complete burning with the proper 200 grain bullets, you will use half as much powder with more consistent burn.

[BobInAus]

MT Chambers, I was thinking slower burning powder possibly equates to lower pressure. Will have to cop the greater quantity of power used.

Bob.

[BobInAus]

earlmck, yes its a sad time when we lose someone and for those that did not know him, the loss of a wealth of knowledge / experience. My gun shop does not carry the 5744 so I will give the RL-7 a go. I'll do some research on the comparison between the RL-7 and the 2205.
Thanks for the info.

Bob

[BobInAus]

Texas by God, I see, we might be ale to increase the charge and the pressure of that of the 240grn bullet.
Regards
Bob

[indian joe]

Texas by God, I see, we might be ale to increase the charge and the pressure of that of the 240grn bullet.
Regards
Bob

Bob in an original '73 ? is that smart?
Heres another alternative ------3grains of 2205 under about 26grains of Wano ----have a friend shoots that in a brass Uberti - gets reasonable velocity - clean burn ----have not tried it meself.

[Outpost75]

Bob in an original '73 ? is that smart?
Heres another alternative ------3grains of 2205 under about 26grains of Wano ----have a friend shoots that in a brass Uberti - gets reasonable velocity - clean burn ----have not tried it meself.

Indian Joe, the late John Kort did all of this testing with RL7 in original 1873s and there is no issue with up to a 240-grain lead bullet and 24.5 grains of RL7, which was pressure tested by Hercules and within standard pressure. With a lighter 200-grain lead bullet it is entirely OK to increase the charge with RL7 to about 26.0-26.5 grs. so as to achieve slight compression, about 1/8", to provide the same base support to the bullet which black powder does. Also a standard pressure load.

[bigted]

I would think that these loads would do well in the 38 WCF also. As a matter of fact, i bet that the 38 WCF, 44 WCF, 45 Colt, 41 mag and 44 mag should all benefit from the low pressure full case loads of RL-7. Seems logical anyway to me?

[indian joe]

I would think that these loads would do well in the 38 WCF also. As a matter of fact, i bet that the 38 WCF, 44 WCF, 45 Colt, 41 mag and 44 mag should all benefit from the low pressure full case loads of RL-7. Seems logical anyway to me?

Have had bullet stability issues with an original 38/40 (RCBS CB 188grain + Wano powder = sideways at 75 yards = was a velocity deficiency) and a early Uberti 44/40 (225 grain CBE over blackpowder = sidways at 200yards = fixed it by going back to original 200grain) - was mainly why I question that 240 grain pill in an original. I am no mettalurgy expert but the steel (iron?) in those old 73's is very soft - would be easy to loosen one up with a bit extra pressure. Yeah John Kort did it all properly but then that gets re interpreted a dozen times .............................................someo ne changes the powder choice ......................................ooooops!

[BobInAus]

Outpost75,
Alliant listed the 240grn bullet with a 23.5grn chg at 1,290fps and 12,100psi. Whilst the 200grn bullet will allow some increase in powder charge without going over the 13,000cup, will it allow an increase of three grains to 26.5grns?
I’m a little confused in an explanation of a difference in max pressures in SAAMI data in that 13,000cup is equal to 11,000psi.
However Hercules lists 23.5grns of Reloader 7 for 1,290fps and 12,100cup then Alliant lists 23.5grns of Reloader 7 for 1,290fps and 12,1000psi indicating that cup and psi are the same, is someone able to comment on this for me please.

[Outpost75]

cup and psi do not correlate exactly and there is no valid conversion factor, each caliber would need to be evaluated separately with the ammunition used as reference calibration standards. The pressure reading also varies depending upon location of the piston hole for radial copper, or the transducer for piezoelectric. With the low standard pressures common in the .44-40, I would not be concerned about the difference. When heavier bullets, such as 240 grains, are used in the .44-40, at an overall cartridge length which feeds from the tubular magazine, powder capacity is reduced, which tends to be self limiting. I would not be concerned loading 26-26.5 grains of RL7 with a 200 grain bullet. I really don't think you can load enough RL7 in a .44-40 to get into trouble. IMR4198, while bulky, burns faster, and I wouldn't shoot a compresssed charge in an 1873, but it makes a good "full charge" load at about 1600 fps in the Winchester 92 or 1894 Marlin.

In the 1873 using 4198 I would work in the range of 18-20 grains with 200-grain bullet and stop when you approach about 1300 fps rifle velocity.

[BobInAus]

Outpost75,

I don't mean to be persistent on this issue, I'm going out to my block next month and going to load a number of case ranging from 23.5 to 26.5 RL7. In your opinion what do you think the 26.5grns with a 200grn bullet may raise the pressure to. I like the idea of there being enough powder in the case to enable me to add a light compression and use the Winchester bullet without telescoping into the case whilst in the tub magazene. Thank you again.
Regards

Bob

[Outpost75]

I'm not going to "guess" on pressure without benefit of test equipment to measure it.

This data from The Fouling Shot suggests that the 24.5 grain charge of RL7 is indeed a full charge with either 200-grain or heavier bullet. Increasing the charge to fill the case isn't necessary for ballistic uniformity. If you need compression to prevent bullets from telescoping into the case from compression of the magazine spring, a Buffalo Arms card wad or two placed under the bullet as it is seated will help.

Group 1 loads - safe in modern replica Colt, and Winchester 1873 .44-40 rifles or revolvers:

200-grain (Accurate 43-200QL, wheeweights, .430")

224790

15.4 grains Alliant #2400____1178 fps Marlin 1894S 20"
6.5 grains Alliant Bullseye____1142 fps Marlin 1894S 20"
5.0 grains Red Dot__________894 fps Marlin 1894S 20" - Do Not Reduce
7.4 grains Red Dot__________1203 fps Marlin 1894S 20" - Max., in link-locked levers
24.5 grains RL7____________ 1359 fps Marlin 1894S 20", 901 fps Ruger 5-1/2"

[earlmck]

Just for curiosity I played around with our RL-7 loads in QuickLoad. Using the Lee 200 grain boolit (very similar profile to the Accurate) with 24.5 grains RL-7 predicted 1440 fps at about 14k psi (20" bbl).

Upping the charge to 26.5 grains to get a compressed load predicts 1580 fps and close to 18k psi which would be somewhat above what I'd want to put in my old 1873 rifle.

[Outpost75]

Just for curiosity I played around with our RL-7 loads in QuickLoad. Using the Lee 200 grain boolit (very similar profile to the Accurate) with 24.5 grains RL-7 predicted 1440 fps at about 14k psi (20" bbl).

Upping the charge to 26.5 grains to get a compressed load predicts 1580 fps and close to 18k psi which would be somewhat above what I'd want to put in my old 1873 rifle.

GOOD info! Thanks for doing that!

If you have time and the curiosity, it would be really interesting to plug in the other "Group 1" loads listed in my post #15 above, and see how close the predicted velocity comes to the reported measurement, and as a sanity check on the pressure levels. I'm very sure that inquiring minds out there would love to know.

[bigted]

This thread keeps getting better n better. Keep it going fellers

[indian joe]

This thread keeps getting better n better. Keep it going fellers

Yeah ----I am having difficulty with this idea (full case of RE7 in a vintage '73) ----I ran a 375 Big Bore 94, years ago, 38 grains of RE7 was a full house load (almost full case)- the 375 BB was designed to run high enough pressure to disintegrate an antique toggle gun -----bigger case (22%) ----lighter boolit than these guys are talkin (220gr 375 vs the 240gr 44) ----despite all the gurus and testing I would not do it! We are talkin about 130 to 150 yr old iron framed gun made for blackpowder and a 200grain lead boolit - now all of a sudden its safe with a 240 grain slug doing 300FPS faster than the original load over a case full of smokeless powder.................maybe that works ......if it does .....then for how long?.
Way back last century (1960 to 1980) the loading manuals all had 44/40 loads topping at 2000FPS for the winchester 92 ........some of us learnt the hard way that a steady diet of those in an early manufacture (low serial number) gun was not the smartest plan afoot. Dont see those recommendations anymore ! (can do it in a Rossi with its modern steel without a hitch)
Those group one loads listed above (post 15) are for modern made replicas NOT iron frame originals

[indian joe]

Indian Joe, the late John Kort did all of this testing with RL7 in original 1873s and there is no issue with up to a 240-grain lead bullet and 24.5 grains of RL7, which was pressure tested by Hercules and within standard pressure. With a lighter 200-grain lead bullet it is entirely OK to increase the charge with RL7 to about 26.0-26.5 grs. so as to achieve slight compression, about 1/8", to provide the same base support to the bullet which black powder does. Also a standard pressure load.

Two questions here
1) what number is "standard pressure"
2) did hercules than recommend that load as safe in an antique model 1873?

[Outpost75]

Back when Hercules tested the RL7 load they used the radial copper method and the maximum average pressure per SAAMI specification of that era was 14,000 cup, which is safe in the original Winchester 1873 and in smokeless frame Colt SAAs. The late John Kort shot lots of that load in his original rifles,as have others here.

[BobInAus]

I don’t mean to change direction of this subject, it is so interesting, I’m just making a little detour while all you gents are present. In post # 10 bigted mentioned that the 26grns RL7 mentioned by Outpost75 in post # 9 could go well in the 38WCF.

I would think that these loads would do well in the 38 WCF also. As a matter of fact, I bet that the 38 WCF, 44 WCF, 45 Colt, 41 mag and 44 mag should all benefit from the low pressure full case loads of RL-7. Seems logical anyway to me?

I have an 1892 Winchester chambered in 38WCF that I normally load with BP and the 180grn straight lead bullet cast from a Winchester mould. After reading all on this subject I’m interested in using the RL 7 in the 38WCF. I suspect there are no problems with pressure in the ’92 but would 26grns fit in the case considering the shape of the case at the shoulder and neck?
Keep going with this I look forward to opening the site each day.
Thanks again Gents
Bob.

[Outpost75]

I have no experience with the .38-40, but a compressed caseful of RL7 works great in the .32-20 model 1873!

[BobInAus]

Carrying on with the smokeless powder RL7 for the 44-40, I saw an article by John Kort ‘Two Peas in a Pod’ where in he mentions in 1895 Winchester introduced its first smokeless powder for the 44WCF cartridge. He also mentions that the powder was a ‘bulk’ smokeless powder designed to be loaded in bulk measure just like black powder. The charge / powder used was 17 grains of DuPont No. 2. Is RL 7 or any other powder anywhere near the equivalent of DuPont No. 2 today?
Regards
Bob

[Outpost75]

No modern equivalent.