AHHHHHHHHHH !!!!!! Scopes. SHEESH!!!

[Buckshot]

[smilie=b: [smilie=b: I REALLY haven't paid the slightest attention to scopes A-TALL. Until now. My wife bought me a Ruger M77 Round Top 30-06 for our first Christmas and she had a Weaver K4 put on it at the gunshop, at the owners suggestion.

In 1992 I bought a Savage M112 single shot in 223 and when ordering it I also bought a Tasco 6-24 x 40 for IIRC $109. It's a NICE scope too! :-) But it was in the same flyer and said it was a varmint scope. So since I was buying a varmint rifle .........................

I bought an old Savage 22 LR bolt rifle for $50 from a friend and it has one of those 3/4" scopes on it. Made by Crossman or somesuch.

After buying a new (but without the box) Remington 581 a couple years back, I was at Wal-Mart trying to buy some Dyna-Points. I saw a Bushnell 3-9 x 32 scope in a blister pack, for I think $39 and bought it for the Remington. Decent scope for a 22LR.

So those are my sum total scoped rifles, and only 2 purchased scopes in my whole put together. Both bought spur of the moment. To be honest the Tasco was and has been a superb scope. Since I got the wild hair to get a Savage 10FP in 308 for pure accuracy fun I decided it needed a nifty scope. Rather then merely trust to blind luck this time, I thought I'd do some research to see if I couldn't find a good one that would go with the rifle (which I can't pickup for another 7 days).

Holy Hanna on a pogo stick! I know you (usually) get what you pay for but putting a scope on a rifle that costs twice what the shooting 'arn cost is just amazing. After 3 days of searching my feeble mind was so full of scope stuff I had to take 2 aspirin and lay down in a dark room. Who BUYS all these scopes, anyway? :veryconfu You have at least 30 manufacturers and importers and each line has to have that many different models and type.

I did narrow it down some by what I was wanting to strap onto the new rifle but that still left a huge pile to sift through. This is a nerve wracking experience.

.....................Buckshot

[Bigjohn]

I knows ya pain! Obviuosly you haven't researched the reticles yet,:veryconfu, Mil-dot, duplex, fine, heavy etc. [smilie=1:

Seriously, I here SIMMONS are a good brand as well as TASCO, REDFIELD, LEOPOLD etc. :twisted:

John.

[Boerrancher]

If you don't buy a Tasco World Class, Redfield, or if your wallet can stand it the best is the Leopold, then don't even bother buying and mounting a scope on it. You would be better off just sighting down the barrel. Those are the only three brands of scopes that I have NEVER EVER had any problems with, and back when my hunting buddy and I had lots of money we tried most of them.

We went together and bought 10 BSA 3x9x40's on a close out two years ago. He tossed the last two a month ago. They had never been on a rifle. The cross hairs had fallen out of them just sitting in the box on top of the gun safe. I bought a new Simmons Deerfield for my new 6mm284 back in the mid 90's. couldn't get it to zero. I sent it back, got a new one, the front lens poped out, tossed it in the trash. I figured why send junk back to get another piece of Junk. I went out and bought a Tasco World Class 3x9x40 and have hauled that rifle every where and have not changed the adjustments on the scope yet and it still shoots 1/4 MOA groups. Take it with a grain of salt because everyone has their own opinion, but set up a scope poll and see what most shooters use here on this forum.

Best Wishes from the Boer Ranch,

Joe

[bullshot]

There are some scopes out there that are very good without spending a fortune. The Whitetail by Simmons comes to mind. I have had very good luck with them. They are bright, take recoil and are repeatable.The three biggest potential problems with inexpensive scopes is brightness,tolerating recoil and adjustment repeatability. Given the choice I prefer the external adjustment scopes (Lyman Supertargetspot, Unertl etc). As you can see my shooting started in the 50's and 60's when these scopes were in there heyday,but that another story. I probably now own fifty or so scopes from the BSA's to the bench rest Leupolds and the mentioned external adjustments. Basically you still get what you pay for. The lighter the recoil the more you can get away with. Repeatability on a non target rifle is probably not as important once its sighted in with whatever ammo you intend to use. Brightness is important in whatever you use the scope for. Now that I've rambled and said basically nothing, my choice for a inexpensive scope is the Whitetail series by Simmons. Can be bought for a little over $100.00 in 6x20 and around $60.00-$70.00 in 4x12.:drinks:

[mike in co]

tell us what power you are looking at and we might be able to narrow down your search. i suggest a small dot, or fine cross hairs...no heavy hunting crosshairs, no mil-dot. while redield was a known quality when denver redfield went out of business a company took over the name and sold japanese and chinese scopes under the name. so luepold, denver redfield, burris(usa only, they currently bring in some imports in thier name), weaver top end, and the japanese tasco world class series. maybe top end nikon. if its a hunting gun i'd stop at about 16x....like a 4-16, if a target, i'd got to 24x, 36x. i have a redfield target 8-32x on one of my ar-10's, and luepold 36x brd's on the other bench guns.

get a 30 mm tube if you can...much better light.

spend the money.....up to twice what the rifle cost, what good is the rifle if the scope cannot keep up with it ?


mike in co

[corvette8n]

Leupold rifleman is under $200.00 and the Burris balistiplex fullfield II is the same
pleased with both.
Burris in on a LH Savage 110 in .308

[Thumbcocker]

I only buy two brands of scope Tasco and Leupold. You can shop around and find used Leupolds but a Tasco ain't bad until you find one. I am a big fan of the Leupold vari x II in 2x7
great light gathering and clairity.

[Hackleback]

Leupolds are the way to go. Lifetime warrenty that they stand behind 110%. I have been picking up the older Leupold Vari-X II and M8 for between $150 and $200. If I get them and they are broken, no problem send them in and they will fix them. As for new scopes- well, you get what you pay for. I have tried to go the cheap route and is has not been good. Found a couple of the Tasco World Class scopes new for a song and "tried" them out. May hard kicking Marlin in 41 mag shook the leneses loose on the first one and could not sight in a 22 with the other. Stick with the better scopes like Leupold and Burris and you will much happier.

[RugerFan]

I've had a couple lower end Bushnells crap out. Tasco scopes are surprisingly good quality for the money. Lately my attention has turned to Millett scopes. Good quality and life time warranty for very reasonable prices.

[twotrees]

Y'all are going to say I'm Nutz but at the same Wally World they sell a 3-9 Daisy Air rifle scope. Since air rifles have 2 recoil impulses,one each direction, all air rifle scopes must have extra internal mounting to handle that.

For $40 with mounts (they fit a 22 groove) they make a great scope for a 22. They are set for 25 yard parallax from the factory.

Do they compare with a Leo, NO !! But I have Hi Power scopes on 22's and am always fighting parallax on them (I know get an AO).

If your going to shoot 22 BR then get a $1400 scope and have at it. If your going to thin the Tree Rats then look at a lower cost option.

Just My Opinion, and like something else we all have , they usually stink.[smilie=1:

Good shooting,

[Doc Highwall]

I just mounted a Barska SWAT scope on my brothers Kimber Govt 22lr and it is a knock off of a Luepold MK4 in 3x-9x 40mm, side focus down to under 10yds, lighted mildot retical, 30mm tube with target knobs and a fast focus eye piece. Everybody who looks through it says the optics are clear. The kicker it it is only $169.00 at Cabelas and yes I am going to buy another one for one of my rifles.

[dromia]

After dabbling in the scope market a couple of years ago when I got my first eye prescription and glasses, only wore the damned things once and they just made things bigger which is not what I needed, I stuck to the simple approach.

Modern scopes have more bloody knobs than the Appollo program, the purpose of these knobs goes way over my head.

I currently have two scopes a No32 MK 3 matched to my No4T and a 4x Ajack on my stalking rifle.

I do know though that my eyes will get worse and scopes will become more necessary on my rifles. So, what I've been doing over the years is buying second hand, mainly Pecar and Ajack scopes mostly in fixed magnification with just two knobs windage, elevation and a focus ring. A variety of reticules the majority are post and hair because thats what I like best, no mil dots which just seems another complication to me.

I now have around a two dozen high quality scopes that I've picked up cheaply over the years especially as fixed magnification isn't sexy any more. Ready to start fitting onto my rifles when the time comes.

[James C. Snodgrass]

Bushnel Elite 3200, Burris, Weaver K- series , And of course Leupold . I have seen every brand of scope fail in one way or another. The Bushnel outlet is close to home and the folk at the local club get a discount. I ain't tore up the Burris on my 338 mag and it's got at least 1500 rnds thru it and still tickin' . As far as pistol scopes go I use the 3200's exclusivly they are unbeatable I got 7 or 8 of em. Good luck James

[Urny]

Maybe spend a little time here:

www.opticstalk.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=9913

[MT Gianni]

I would go with BoeRanchers recommendations with the addition of Burris. I have some weaver steel tubes that are good but prefer Leopold and Burris. Gianni

[Heavy lead]

Bushnel Elite 3200, Burris, Weaver K- series , And of course Leupold . I have seen every brand of scope fail in one way or another. The Bushnel outlet is close to home and the folk at the local club get a discount. I ain't tore up the Burris on my 338 mag and it's got at least 1500 rnds thru it and still tickin' . As far as pistol scopes go I use the 3200's exclusivly they are unbeatable I got 7 or 8 of em. Good luck James

+1 for all these plus the Weaver Grand Slam and the Nikon Monarch. I also have 4 Nikon Buckmasters I use on my varmit rifles. 3 4x14 and one 6x18. Awesome scopes for the money. Hard to beat the Leupold VX 1 2x7 for a hunting scope though. Light, clear and high enough power to kill anything as far as you should be shooting it.

[wiljen]

Don't forget the Nikons - they have a 3x9 for about $150 that is a heck of a deal comparatively.

[dubber123]

Nowadays even a "cheap" rifle can often shoot MOA, but put a cheap piece of glass on it, and it doesn't matter how good it is, it will never shoot. I feel your pain, but after being shafted by most of the cheaper brands, I would just as soon let a new rifle set for a year until I can get a good scope on it than waste my time on a cheapie.

In fact I just did so on a new .221. I waited until I got a good deal on a scope with a name that starts with "L", and I am very pleased. Just as I am with all my "L" brand scopes. Don't waste your bucks, save up for good glass. If it's not a hard kicker, it opens up some options. A Nikon maybe.

[MtGun44]

Buckshot,

One of the big issues with inexpensive scopes (well actually with all scopes
but the high $$ ones have it down pat) is the ball joint pivot for the reticle
tube which is inside the main tube. The slightest bit of free play in this
ball joint and you get a reticle that pops to a slightly different location with
each recoil impulse. If the joint is too tight, the reticle tube is 'sticky' and
needs 1 or more recoil impulses to move if the adjustment was such
that the adjusting screw moved away from the reticle tube - which requires
the reticle tube spring to push it to follow the screw. With as sitcky joint,
this happens after a few recoil impulses. Non of this is good.

A couple years back Meade (a pretty good astronomical telescope maker)
bought Simmons scopes and put in some serious improvements in the optical
quality, adjusters,etc. This is their Master Series. The coolest thing that they
did was to replace the ball joint end of the reticle tube with a solidly mounted
end - but the reticle tube is cross-cut several times to make that portion into
a spring tube. No slop, cheaper to make and the tube is the (strong, I'd
imagine) spring to keep it tracking the reticle adjusting screws. One of those
neat ideas that is both better and cheaper, doesn't often work that way.

I have purchased 4 or 5 and a friend has several more and they have been
very good scopes for amazingly low prices. In two cases cheapo scopes were
replaced and "the rifle was suddenly noticably more accurate" - which of course
indicates that the scopes (as suspected) had some internal 'issues'.

I use Leo 2-7s on my "for serious" rifles where I might not ever get another shot
like that, but for everything else (fun guns, plinkers, etc) I have been using
the Simmons Master Series for a couple of years. Meade recently sold them
to somebody else, so this info may change in the future, but for now the
pipeline is pretty full of Master Series scopes made under Meade's ownership.

+1 on Nikon's, too. The 629 in my avatar has a Nikon on it, works great and
takes quite a licking from the .44. Of course, Nikon knows a thing or two about
optics.

Bill

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I have had Bushnell , Tasco & Swift scopes, all were replaced. Redfield used to be pretty good , now own Burris scopes by choice. Reasonable price & work well.
Have 3 of the old acu-trac 3X9's.

[Obsolete]

I've been trying to figure out newer scopes also..... I have two old school Redfield 3x9's and 1 Lep 3X9 but they are already on rifles....... I have a LR98 / 1908 Brazillian with a 25" Douglass tube in 308 Win and a walnut Ordendorf style stock... that I filed off the shnable... hate them things..... but I want a lower power 20MM objective lens on....It wouldnt look right with a big scope on it.... and since it's strictly a hunting rifle and I have a max range limit of approx 250 yds....I dont care I wont shoot at unwounded game past that.... really more like 200 yds.

All I can find is like the Leo 1.5 X 5 ... that looks perfect ... but they sell for $400.00
Cant find a fixed 5 or 6X 20MM .... I just dont really have a use for under 4X....... 5X or 6X I seem to get the best "clarity" out of all my scopes with.

Any ideas ?

[Buckshot]

.................I really appreciate everyone's input on this mind bending persuit. I REALLY should have mentioned what I was looking for rather then just saying I needed a "Nifty' scope for the soon to be mine, Savage M10FP. It would have really narrowed down the options, but vastly increased the dollars :-)

So far this is my list:

Bushnell

Elite 3200 7-21 X 40, AO, Mil Dot. $344
Elite 4200 6-24 x 40, side focus, Mil Dot. $499
Elite 4200 6-24 x 50, side focus, Mil Dot, $579
Elite 6500 2.5-16 X 50MM Matte (30MM) Side Focus Mil Dot $628

Burris

Fullfield II, 6.5-20 x 50, Mil Dot, $475
Fullfield II, 6.5-20 x 50, Mil Dot, target knobs, $495
Black DIamond 6-24 x 50 (30mm tube) Mil Dot, target Knobs $748

Pentax

Lightseeker 30, 6-24 x 50 (30mm tube) side focus, Mil Dot $699

Of that list the 2 front runners are the Bushnell E 4200 50mm and the Burris Black Diamond. In several days of looking and looking and reading and reading I found that all these got high marks. The Pentax was the only one I didn't find any actual user reports about. Of course in searching you run across those scopes that cost $4000 to $6000 too, YIKES!!!!!!

I did read some pretty fine stuff about the high magnification scopes from Barska, Simmons, and BSA, but a common thread was that they dim out (usually) above 14-16x, and some would refuse to focus at those powers, or it was so touchy as to be almost impossible. I also fouind it interesting that so many of these are being put on the 17, 20, and 22 cal RF's.

......................Buckshot

[Crash_Corrigan]

MIDWAY carries a Simmone Whitetail Classic 6 x 20 with a 50 MM objective lens and Adjustible Octive. This a dandy. This thing is bright and clear and holds it settings round after round. I cannot speak about weatherproofing and leaking as I am in Nevada a notoriously dry area of the USA.

However at the normal price of 150 or so it is a good value and since I got mine for about 100 bucks they are a great value for the buck. I now own 3 of them and they are on all my good rifles.

With my CZ 527 .223 Rifle and good Hornady 40 grain j word boolits I can get groups of less than 1/2 inch at 100 yds from a bench rest if I do my part.

You can spend more money but I really am not out to impress anybody my only desire is to make every shot count. I have looked through Leopold scopes costing $400 and more and I cannot see the difference in light gathering ability nor clarity. I do a lot of shooting at 300 to 700 yds with a 6.5 x 55 MM Sweede and 160 grain handloads and if the wind is not too bad I get very good results with the Simmons.

They are currently on sale at Midway for about 125 or so I believe.

[Bass Ackward]

I have done accuracy testing every few years for the last 40 years of many brands of scopes. I can tell you that buying one brand or make of that brand is no guarantee. I have seen Leupolds that would group and those that wouldn't. Sometimes a cheap scope will be a superior grouper even though it isn't as clear. But without a doubt, and don't ask me why, fixed power scopes have always grouped better than variables. Often remarkably.

Since this is supposed to be an accuracy thing, I will recommend three scopes and I am not sure if one is still made. A 10X Bushnell for about $200. A T-16 Weaver if it's still made. Or a 36X Weaver if you are serious at about $400.

Those scopes have beat all comers and are what I settle on for accuracy testing. The 10X Bushnell is the BEST scope value on the market, bar none. The T-16 is the best compromise and it simply comes down to how far you want to shoot and how much you want to spend. Remember, you aren't hunting, so changing power isn't needed. This allows you to buy more scope for the money.

[felix]

Yep, agree here too: FIXED power scope. I either have a variable set on max or on min, nothing in between. Rather have the gun determine the scope power for the gun's application intent. Pick the gun out of the closet for the game on hand with a fixed power scope. ... felix

[twotrees]

I bought 2 each of this guys scopes when he started out Importing them 6 years ago. ( 3X9,4X16 and 8X25's)

I helped him develop the 8X25X50 series of scopes for target and varmint hunting. (I have the first 2 prototypes of them, here).

All of his scopes track very well 1 inch box 8 clicks each direction back to zero, at 100 yards.
I have one of the 3x9's on my Marlin 1895 and I don't load mouse loads for hunting. It has put up with 4 wheeler rides and tree stands for 6 years and still works and looks great.

I will say that the high power Eradicator series has good brightness and focus to 24X but I don't like it at 25X.

Rich uses "European glass" and has them made in China and they have 1/8 in clicks. They do not have enough internal adjustment for 1000 yard shooting without a 20 MOA mount.

At $260 for their hi power models, I think they are a good buy.

It's your bucks, buy what makes you happy.

Good shooting,

[Just Duke]

............
Elite 6500 2.5-16 X 50MM Matte (30MM) Side Focus Mil Dot $628


......................Buckshot

I put two of these on my 2 AR-10T's and have had fantastic results.
I have around 8 Leupold Mark 4's lighted and the Bushnell has the clearer optics.

[Larry Gibson]

My 2 cents worth and advice at the end; with scopes and binoculars you get what you pay for. Over the years I've gone through a lot of scopes, mounted a lot of scopes for others and helped zero rifles with scopes on them. While I've used the top end scopes ($1000+) I don't own any. I think the most I've paid for a scope is $800. Quality scopes can be had for $250-$800. I have 9 scopes sitting on a shelf that are dysfunctional, all are the cheaper scopes. I have gone through i don't know how many cheaper binoculars over the years. I finally saved up for a Zeiss Victory 10x42 and am constantly amazed at their performance.

What do I mean by quality;
Clarity of view even to the edge of the field of view
Repeatable adjustments
Consistent reticle zero

With cheaper scopes you do not get the quality of glass in the lens or the coating available. This means the clarity and resolution of the picture (what you see) will not be clear and precise. It also means induced parallax which is why Bass mentions some scopes not "grouping" as well. The more you spend, the better the lens thus the better you see (especially under dim light conditions), simple as that.

Repeatable adjustments; scope design and manufacture have come a long way in 50 years. There is no reason to accept a new scope that does not have repeatable adjustments. Cheaper scopes are not as well built, do not have the quality of parts and are not as precisely made as more expensive scopes. Again you get what you pay for.

Consistent reticle zero; With lesser quality (read that as "cheaper") scopes since they are made with less precision and less quality the zero does not remain constant when the power is changed or the parallax (front or side focus) is changed. It is easy to check if you have a bore scope/calumniator with a grid pattern on it. Put the rifle in a solidly mounted vise on a solid bench. attach the calumniator as recommended. Now look through the scope noting the position of the center of the crosshairs/dot/tip of post on the grid. Now turn the power up and down. The aiming point of the reticle should stay in the same spot. If it does not then your zero will wander. This most often means the rifle will be zeroed only at one power setting. Then, with the power setting at one power adjust the focus through its range. Again if the aiming point moves about the grid then the zero is changing. You can also test for repeatability of elevation and windage adjustments by adjusting them several minutes in different directions and seeing if they return to zero when adjusted back to the starting point.

I currently have 42 scopes in use on rifles. All of the fixed X scopes pass the repeatability of adjustment test (the other two tests do not apply). The fixed scopes that did not pass (all cheaper ones (Bushnell Banner, Tasco, Swift, etc.) are laying on the shelf mostly because the reticle has fallen out or the lens separated. Of the variable powered scopes less than $300 at today’s prices that I have only one of them can pass all 3 tests. That one is a Nikon Buckmaster 4-14X. The top end Tasco, Bushnell and Weaver variable scopes pass the repeatability of adjustment and constant zero test but fail the consistent reticle zero test when the focus (if they have one) test. The Burris, Redfield and Leupold scopes I have all pass all three of the tests. The only “low end” scope that also passes all three tests is the Zeiss Conquest scope.

As to repair; I have had scope of all of the brands mentioned except the Zeiss fail at one time or another over the years. I have always had good service from every company and the repairs have been at no charge except when the damage was obviously my fault.

My advice is this; if you would buy a Corvette and expect it to perform would you put retread tires on it? Then why buy a quality rifle expecting it to perform and put a cheap scope on it? You will shoot only as good as you can see. With scopes and binoculars you get what you pay for.

Larry Gibson

[buck1]

I havent used the high powered scopes much but I thought I would throw this in FWIW..
I have put Leupold, Burris , and bushnell scopes on very hard kicking handcannons with great luck. I did not think the bushnells would hold up , but they have been great on my guns for a long time now.
A buddy of mine put a Tasco 8x to 40X (or something close to that power)on a triced out Ruger .308, He is VERY PICKY and to my suprise , He just loves it.
If I had to make the same choice you do, I would most likely lean toward Bushnell unless $$$ were no object. My $0.02 Buck

[Typecaster]

Thanks, twotrees, for bringing up the Muellers. I had been curious whether anyone on the site has tried one.

Richard

[longhorn]

You can find both glowing and horrific reviews of every brand on the 'net. IIRC, you want that Savage for real accuracy; I'd suggest either Nightforce or Leupold, then you'll know you're testing rifle and ammo, not optics. Of course, you can add another digit to your price range and go German........

[mike in co]

do not forget about used scopes.
i picked up a 3/9 redfield( denver) for $25 on friday, and today picked up a 6-18 redfield(denver) for 150 despite the 225 price tag.
one caution on redfields. when they went out of business someone bought the naming rights and labeled import scopes as redfields...and they are not "real" redfields. a third company has taken over production and is suppose to be trying usa production.
buyer beware
mike in co

[Buckshot]

................Again, I appreciate all the comments and I hope maybe someone else is getting some benefit. As I mentioned to Maven, this whole scope deal is way out of character for me and to even consider spending $750 for a scope is tantamount to your 80 year old mom announcing she's going to take break dancing lessons from some guys down on the corner :-)

Part to the problem is that it ISN'T a cut and dried thing. Someone's acceptable is someone else's kiss of death, and the same scopes off the same line won't do the same thing. Then a brand to brand prefferance is common. In reading of tests (especially the cheaper brands) several people may sing the overall praises of a modestly priced scope, but in the end they'll say as if in apology, "It's a good scope for the money, but it's not a Leupold."

Lastest issue of the Sportsman's Guide has a Brunton 6-24 x 44, illuminated Mil-Dot target knobs and sunshade tube for $69. Whadda ya thimk?

Warranty is very important and especially if you're going to be paying what you consider VERY serious money for what you're buying. So part of my narrowing down process was that. Also, my preferance for the variable is from experience varmint hunting. Early in the morning you can dial in 24X and enjoy those way long off shots, but before long you're back down to maybe 9 through 12X depending. I like that flexability. Hopefully the scope maintains it's zero during the trip.

As a friend of mine explained some time back, with modern computer grinding of lense glass, all the difference is in the inspection/rejection tolerances thorughout the glasses movement to completion. Of course, what then comes into play (depending upon it's use) is the quality of the instrument they're placed into. Poorly coated glass in a superbly setup tube still wreaks the entire unit.

..................Buckshot

[PatMarlin]

I solved my scope issues this way:

I buy USED Leupold vari 2-3's in top used condition, as this has provided a great higher dollar scope at a low dollar price that is fully covered by warranttee.


Get you a used Leupy 1.5x5 and you will love it cousin... :mrgreen:

[Larry Gibson]

BOOM BOOM

I've three of the old AccuTracs 3x9 too and an Ultimate 4x12. I've killed an awefull lot of big game with those 3x9s. Made fools out of numerous SOTIC and Ranger "snipers". While they were guessing at the size of targets, figuring out mil-dots and playing with calculators I ranged, dialed in and shot the target. They'd always come over and ask, "how'd you do that?"

Larry Gibson

[SCIBUL]

Hello all !
I agree with a great number of you. But I've been testing scopes since five years now and I found that this kind of buy must be done seriously. I've had the "biggest" fever during some years but have now understood that if you want to shoot in any conditions with the same scope there are several needs to take into account.
Buckshot is right when he says that today technics have greatly involved in scope manufacturing. All the makers will precise a capacity of luminosity transfert, field of view, eye relief... For all of it the ultimate instrument is your eye ! Look and take what you are confortable with. For me the most important think is the ability to hold zero. After, and only after, comes the other features. The last scope I've tried (and keep) is a NIKON Buckmaster 4,5 - 14 x 40 that now sits on my parker hale 1200V 243. Great features for price ! Versatile power, side focus, low target turrets, reticle on demand, good eye relief, 50MOA of internal adjustment and serious aftermarket service for... 250 dollars. However, if you're on a budget, try to find one of these old TASCO made in japan and you'll never regret. I currently have a VXIII LRT Leo but am not fan of this brand. For me my top of the line is my BURRIS 3-12 XTR that should proudly stand aside a NF.
In the optics industry things have changed (in good manner) and I firmly think that only low end range scope of the well known manufacturers might be considered with caution. But don't forget that even the bests have or currently make "lemons" series, and that's why aftermarket service is important.
Just my 2 cents.
SCIBUL

[Bass Ackward]

It is interesting to read how people judge scopes. And a lot of the testing criteria is mentioned that the industry wants us to focus on. The most popular seems to be boxing. One big thing that they don't mention is range of accuracy.

By the nature of springs, as long as you are within so many clicks of center it is under planned tension. And how long of a life the scope has will depend on how far from center that you have to adjust it. Cause we all know that springs will weaken over time. If your action holes are drilled a little off or your rings high / low and the scope has to be adjusted way to one side, then shot to shot repeatability can be changed. As anyone who has ever left the drag on their fishing reel all winter knows, you can lose those springs if kept too tight, too long.

That's why I like mounts and rings that can allow you to move the scope before you tweak the hairs. Adjust your scope as little in any direction as possible.

[felix]

Yeah, keep everything concentric from start to finish. Make sure the cross hairs are centered in the scope before installing. That has nothing to do with the markings/indexes on the knobs, so put the scope on a box, cutting a "V" in the box for a cradle, and move your eye back and forth across the rear of the scope looking for crosshair movement. First, adjust background to be fuzzy (shoot at close object or adjust AO to make the blurr) so you can concentrate on the crosshairs. Adjust knobs to zero crosshair movement, and then, if possible, move the scale on the knobs to zero. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Bass and Felix

Keeping things concentric with the reticle centered in the scope is a good idea if you are going to zero and then use hold over/hold off for longer range shots of for wind conditions.

Using some of the current craze of multiple aiming points reticles is a little better than than hold over/hold off but in reality you are still just holding over or holding off. Many if us know that the most accurate shooting at longer range is done when the sights (in this case the reticle) is adjusted to be poa = poi. To be able to shoot from a 200 yard zero to 1000 yards for instance requires the 200 yard zero to have the reticle at the low end of the adjustment so there is sufficient elevation to adjust to a 1000 yard setting. For hunting most scopes will allow 12-15 moa in one revolution so for hunting that is sufficient (with cartridges using J bullets) to go from a 200 yard zero to a 600 yards zero. I am not advocating long range big game shooting although I have done it. I'm just saying what is needed. Thus most scopes can be zeroed in the middle range of their adjustment and be satisfactory as you two mention. However i just wanted to point out the exceptions required for long range target and varmint shooters.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Larry, you've said it correctly, but in reverse. Instead, make the scope be dead on at the LONGEST range by moving the mounts only, but only after the optical center of the scope has been "locked down". Now use the dials to shoot at the closer range. The idea is to have the least sighting error at the longest range. ... felix

[Reloader06]

Does anybody have any experience with Shepherd Scopes. They sound interesting but I've only been able to find a couple of people that have used them. They love them, but....

Matt

[AZ-Stew]

Bass is right about initial alignment of the scope. This is why I use the Burris Signature Rings for all new scope mounting jobs. I can't afford to retrofit all my older rifles, but all new rifles have the scopes mounted with the Signature series rings. For those not familiar with them, the insides of the rings are milled out spherically, rather than cylindrically, and each ring has a plastic insert that has a spherical outer surface to mate with the inside of the ring. This forms a ball and socket arrangement that allows the scope to be mounted with zero angular stress on the scope tube, without the need to lap the insides of the rings. The plastic inserts prevent the rings from scratching the scope tube and provide a larger contact area around the tube for a better grip. Offset inserts are available to allow a near-perfect initial alignment on rifles that have mount base holes drilled out of alignment with the bore axis.

I do mechanical design for a living and hold 5 US Patents. When I saw the Signature rings for the first time it was a real head-slapper. It was immediately obvious that this system was far superior to the old-tech lapped steel rings. I won't use anything else. They cost about $6 more than comparable Leupolds that require lapping, but are well worth it. No, I don't work for them. I work in the electronics industry.

I'm also fond of the Burris Fullfield II scopes. As far as I'm concerned, they're every bit as good as Leupold, but considerably less expensive for comparable features, and with essentially the same warranty. I frequently read about how good Leupold's warranty is, but I don't remember reading about anyone having to return a Burris. Don't get me wrong, I have one Leupold and it's a fine scope, but I don't think there is any discernable difference between it and the Burris scopes I have to justify the difference in price.

I also have a number of Bushnels, at least two older Redfields and a couple of Tascos (who's quality has VASTLY improved since they started) and I've never had any of them fail. Some are better than others and you DO get what you pay for, to a point. In my book, once you get to about the $500 mark in a scope, any quality improvements are so small that they don't justify the additional cost. However, if you can afford to show your shooting companions that you have a Swarovski or Zeis mounted on your $500 factory-stock rifle, far be it from me to try to talk you out of it.

Regards,

Stew

P.S. The last sentence is a general comment, not aimed at anyone in particular.

[mike in co]

i don't think i every read 'WHAT" TYPE OF SCOPE . or What type of shooting.......

hope you were joking on the $69 mil dot scope.

mike in co

[Doc Highwall]

Reloader06, I have two Shepherd scopes and I would not hesitate to buy another. I have a P2 on my 1885 Lowwall in .260 Rem and a P22 on my Cooper M57 22 lr and love that they tell you the distance and the hold over for their size reticule. Also a comment on the scope adjustments on the European scopes is some of them like my Schmit & Bender have one centimeter adjustments at 100 yds not 1/8" or 1/4"

[Reloader06]

Highwall

Thanks for the input. I'm not gonna run out a get one quick but I am courious.

Matt

[felix]

One click is a little over a third of an inch. Not bad, considering most of the older scopes were half-inch clicks. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

Larry,

Absolutely. Mostly I am talking moving permanently, not adjusting and coming back. And I believe Rick wants this for cast work, so I am not sure how long of range he is talking.

Wasn't it the old Baush & Lomb mounts that had both vertical and horizontal adjustment as the scope was a fixed tube?


Stew,

I use the Siggy Zees from Burris also.

[RugerFan]

Might I suggest the Millett 4-16x56 (30mm) $219.99

http://www.opticsbestbuy.com/Millett-4-16x56-Rifle-Scope-Plex-Reticle-BK30720.html

Millett also has a lifetime warrantee.

[Buckshot]

i don't think i every read 'WHAT" TYPE OF SCOPE . or What type of shooting.......

hope you were joking on the $69 mil dot scope.

mike in co

.............Well I was joking about buying it, but wasn't joking about it being for sale for that price :-)

Bass, "And I believe Rick wants this for cast work, so I am not sure how long of range he is talking."

That's pretty much true, but I plan on excersizing it with jacketed also.

This afternoon I ended up ordering the Burris Black Diamond 6-24 x 50 with a 30mm tube, side focus, target knobs and a ballistic mil-dot recticle. I'm amazed at myself. :shock: Now all I gotta get are the Redding neck bushing die and inline seater, some R-P Core-Lokt's for break in, and some 155 gr VLD's and maybe some 168gr Sierra match slugs. DOn't know when I'll be able to shoot this thing, but I should be ready!

...................Buckshot

................Buckshot

[mike in co]

Might I suggest the Millett 4-16x56 (30mm) $219.99

http://www.opticsbestbuy.com/Millett-4-16x56-Rifle-Scope-Plex-Reticle-BK30720.html

Millett also has a lifetime warrantee.


no...it sucks at 4x and 200 yds...i have one. my vintage, un restored texas steel tube weaver marksman 4x is clearer and its about 40 years old!

[mike in co]

.............Well I was joking about buying it, but wasn't joking about it being for sale for that price :-)

Bass, "And I believe Rick wants this for cast work, so I am not sure how long of range he is talking."

That's pretty much true, but I plan on excersizing it with jacketed also.

This afternoon I ended up ordering the Burris Black Diamond 6-24 x 50 with a 30mm tube, side focus, target knobs and a ballistic mil-dot recticle. I'm amazed at myself. :shock: Now all I gotta get are the Redding neck bushing die and inline seater, some R-P Core-Lokt's for break in, and some 155 gr VLD's and maybe some 168gr Sierra match slugs. DOn't know when I'll be able to shoot this thing, but I should be ready!

...................Buckshot

................Buckshot


nice choice...i think you may not like the big mil dots for precision, but time will tell.
pass on the 155s for under 500 yds, go with the sie 168 or 175's.

now since you have gone this far, step up to the plate and get some lapua 308 brass.....

mike in co