Lyman 452424 with square lube grooves ?

[GLL]

I have been searching (without success) for a Lyman 452424 mould that has the square (flat bottom) lube groove. Were these even made ? Does anyone own one ?

Thanks.

Jerry

[Bman]

I understand that some were made with the square grooves. Mine has rounded grooves but works very well. So far I haven't leaded my Ruger with any and some times I slap them pretty hard. :shock: Mine come out in the 265 gr area depending on WW batch.

[longhorn]

Mine certainly exists; it's a double cavity, marked "Lyman" "454424" "k6" and "220" on both sides. I bought it well used in the early '70's. Lube grooves are definitely sqare, not rounded at all. Certainly not my easiest mold to cast with, but I've reincarnated a bunch of wheelweights with it!

[MT Gianni]

Keep looking. Mine is my most accurate bullet in the 45 colt. Gianni.

[Char-Gar]

You will never find a 452424 with the square bottom lube groove.

The original Keith design (with the square bottom lube groove) was Lyman 454424. At some point Lyman went to the round bottom groove and you will find 454424s with both square and round bottom grooves. This really frosted Keith and he encouraged folks to buy H&Gs molds as they were truer to his original design.

At some point Lyman reduced the "as cast" diamter of the bullet to .452 instead of .454 and renamed the mold 452424. The switch from square to round gooves took place BEFORE the new designation.

[The Nyack Kid]

charger is right lyman quit makeing the square bottom shortly after WW2 . why do you want a square bottom anyways ? depending on how desperate you are to get a square bottom there are a few things you can do . get a mold made by mountain molds or get lucky finding a square bottom 454424 (good luck) ,also NEI has some 45 pistol boolit molds as does RCBS

[The Nyack Kid]

I had forgot , but i had an IDEAL 454424 but it had the round bottom lube groves . remember that lyman used the ideal name into the fiftys and i beleave they also made the square bottom molds.

[45 2.1]

Mine certainly exists; it's a double cavity, marked "Lyman" "454424" "k6" and "220" on both sides. I bought it well used in the early '70's. Lube grooves are definitely sqare, not rounded at all. Certainly not my easiest mold to cast with, but I've reincarnated a bunch of wheelweights with it!

longhorn-
This is one of the Keith designed molds that are being sought to measure up for a group buy. We are looking for Lyman/Keith original mold samples for the 358429, 429421 and 454424 in the square lube groove. Consider providing me some samples for this. We already did a group buy of the 452423 square groove Keith bullet from one of my molds.

[Bret4207]

Didn't we have a long discussion on the merits of the square or "squarer" bottomed lube grooves? Seems the idea was that the design allowed a bit more lube to fill the groove and that it would cling to the square corner better. Might have been one of the older boards. IIRC the rounded groove came about becasue the boolits dropped easier. Am I remebering something wrong?

[GLL]

I have been referred to Glen Fryxell's article about the .45 Keith SWC. He shows that there were both square and rounded lube groove versions of the 452424 as shown in his photo. Apparently the square version is not easy to come by though.

I have one of the older 454424 with the square lube groove but wanted to "play" with the 452424.

Thanks for all of the replies. I look forward to the group buys of the Keith designs.

http://www.fototime.com/F46A2EDA0B6D5D7/standard.jpg

Jerry

[45 2.1]

Jerry-
Perhaps you would want to supply some samples of the "Old square groove 454424 Lyman mold". We cannot have a group buy until we get some samples to measure up. Those samples would probably be from an Ideal marked Lyman mold that would show some "age". Could you possibly show some as cast bullets with that particular mold?

[RayinNH]

45 2.1, I have a Lyman 429421 two cavity, square lube groove mold if you need one to measure. If you'd like I will send you the mold, that way you can pour your own to measure as well as cast a supply to use. Let me know if you are interested...Ray

[45 2.1]

45 2.1, I have a Lyman 429421 two cavity, square lube groove mold if you need one to measure. If you'd like I will send you the mold, that way you can pour your own to measure as well as cast a supply to use. Let me know if you are interested...Ray

Several of use have square groove 429421s, but what we're looking for is Keiths original versions of the design. It would have to be a very old mold where the front band is the same diameter as the two rear bands and is about as long as the middle band. It would also probably be marked Ideal on the blocks. Does yours qualify?

[9.3X62AL]

I have two Ideal/Lyman #454424 molds, one- and two-cavity respectively, both having square-bottomed lube groove. Let me know where to send samples, if needed.

[RayinNH]

It's a Lyman not an Ideal. It's at work so I'll measure tommorrow...Ray

[Char-Gar]

I am a little confused about what you still need in terms of sample of original Keith bullets. If you get stuck, tell me what you need. I may not have it, but I know folks who will.

I have an old NEI mold that is a total clone of the original Keith 44/250. For whatever reason Walt decided to not offer the mold any more about 20 years ago. It is not an Ideal mold, but it is the real deal.

Glen Fryxell is a good friend and He will probably have what we need. BTW, he got one of our 311407 Mod. Molds and seems to be quite enthusiastic about it.

[Char-Gar]

Glen Fryxell has all of the Ideal molds in question and he will send me some samples from each. Somebody tell me where to send the samples. I figure we need as many examples as possible to get some average specs. The specs morphed a mite as Ideal/Lyman ground new cherries and those cherries wore out.

[Bman]

OOOPS just getting back to this thread and read the first post too quickly, I was thinking the 454424. If I understand right, please correct me if I'm wrong but the major difference in the older square/round groove moulds is only the groove right?

[RayinNH]

45 2.1, I measured the 429421 mold that I have. It's a Lyman not Ideal. All three bands as measured from the mold blocks are .432 (boolits from tape weights measure .4305).The first two driving bands measure .095 and the bottom band is .100 in height. Over all length of boolit is .775 and the meplat measures .275...Ray

[45 2.1]

OOOPS just getting back to this thread and read the first post too quickly, I was thinking the 454424. If I understand right, please correct me if I'm wrong but the major difference in the older square/round groove moulds is only the groove right?

No! Keith had a thick front band that was full diameter. He also said to size your bullets to exact groove diameter which worked well with the 16:1 alloy that he said was HARD. His design and method were balanced very well and shot very well also, unlike alot of things we use today.

PMs to Chargar and RayinNH

[RayinNH]

45 2.1 PM back at you...Ray

[mroliver77]

There are some of us waiting to do group buys on the Keith molds as soon as .45 can do the drawings. Catshooter wants to do a group buy on all the kieths and I have committed to help in any way I can. I think these in 6 cavity would go over in a big way.
.45 2 1, Kieth also deisigned versions of hs bullets with hollow base for revolvers with "generous" throats. Somewhere in his mind he was thinking throat size too. I am excited to see this move ahead. Jay

[floodgate]

mroliver:

".45 2 1, Kieth also deisigned versions of hs bullets with hollow base for revolvers with "generous" throats. Somewhere in his mind he was thinking throat size too."

I believe Keith stated that the main reason for the hollow-based versions was to get the weights back towards the standard weights for the bullets of the time. His HB #358431 version came in at 160 grs., vs. the 175 grs. of the plain-base #358429. (158 grs. was the "standard " weight for the .38 Spl. RN's. and 150 grs. for the .357's.) He may also have been thinking about getting the center-of-gravity a bit further forward for better stability.

floodgate

PS: Nice quote from Freud!

[StarMetal]

Floodgate,

But doesn't stability become better with the weight more towards the rear? Thus the reason of match hollow point bullets? I mean afterall you certainly don't need a hollow point bullet for punching paper targets.

Joe

[45 2.1]

From what I have read by Keith in his articles, he mentioned that he thought the 358429 was to heavy for the 38 spl. He said he placed a hollow base on it to reduce the weight. Keith always said to size bullets to groove diameter, use an undersize expansion plug, 16:1 alloy or harder, size cases full length and use a heavy crimp. If you check some revolvers from his era, I think you will find the same range of oversize throats we enjoy now. The soft alloy with tight case fit and heavy crimp let those bullets slug up to fit the throats and give good accuracy. Keith had some very poor brass to contend with also along with some powders that would not make it on the commercial scene presently.

[Bass Ackward]

Keith always said to size bullets to groove diameter, use an undersize expansion plug, 16:1 alloy or harder, size cases full length and use a heavy crimp.


Bob,

Elmer covered all the bases at one time or another in his life. Different beliefs for different calibers too.

A lot of his bore diameter sizing was because of his 44 Mags. He had special made guns that did not have sloppy throats.

"The 6 1/2" barreled gun was a masterpiece. both as to accuracy and careful fitting and sighting." Elmer Keith, "Sixguns", page 309.

But his opinions differed as to sizing when it came to standard factory fodder.

"This .001 of an inch is the diameter over groove measurements, which I prefer for most sixgun loads," Elmer Keith, "Sixguns", page 237.

"With light loads and comparitively light, short bullets, the diameter of the sized bullet can be as much as .003 of an inch over your groove diameter of your barrel," Elmer Keith, "Sixguns" Page 237


So Elmer had a realistic outlook on sizing much like many here have found also. We aren't that different.

[floodgate]

Joe:

Even though useta be a physicist, I don't know all there is to know (or even a significant part of it) about rapidly-rotating, fast-moving objects like boolits. But, generally, more weight aft of the "center of form" tends to reduce stability, and vice-versa - think of an arrow: heavy point forward, high drag from the feathers aft (or a VW "bug" or rear-engine Porsche, if you've ever tried to drive one in a strong cross-wind) . For rotating bodies it "stands to reason" (whatever that is worth) that it would be best if the center of mass and center of form were pretty close together - the hollow base cancelling out the smaller mass of the nose in the case of #385431. As to the use of hollow points in match bullets, the reason I have read several places (and the one that lets the military slip by using hollow-point bullets in combat) is that the factories get better weight consistency and symmetry if they leave a small hollow point than if they try to just fill up the core and close up the nose completely; that is, with a jacket closed at the base and the lead filler inserted from the front. But, like I said, I am far from an expert on the subject.

floodgate