Not having success with 260 Rem

[blue32]

I’ve been having quite a time figuring out 6.5mm cast loads. I’m using the RCBS 6.5-140-SILH cast of Lyman #2 sized .264 and .265 and lubed with Saeco green. I’ve tried it with published loads of A5744, non-published loads of Unique (10 – 13gr.), 2400 (15-16gr.), and IMR 4831. I’ve seated the bullet from .02” off the lands at 2.725” to jammed into the lands. The best I can manage is 3” at 50 yards, but not if I fire more than three shots. I always get fliers and sometimes several in a row.

I’m neck sizing, trimming to 2.025, expanding with a Lyman neck expander, taking the bell out with the Lee factory crimp die, and completing sizing and seating with RCBS dies.

I’ve never come to a point where a bullet just will not work. I’m curious if I may be at that point, and if so, what other bullets may give success. The only thing I haven’t tried is casting with straight Lino but I wanted to post this in case I didn’t think of something more obvious.

[Grmps]

Have you slugged the bore or pound casted the gun?
Are your boolits 2 thou over diameter?

some guns have larger bores than others. I have a 9mm Llama that slugs out at .358 :(

[T-Bird]

My 260 Rem is a Ruger M77, it has a 1 in 9" twist. That might be what you're dealing with. I've never tried cast in it. I've saved it for my long(er) range deer rifle and only shoot 120 gr J-words, which it does very well.Alloy hardness, speed of the powder,velocity, bullet length, get a little more potentially finicky as the twist rate increases with cast, in my experience. Tight twist puts a lot of torque on a cast bullet. They ain't near as hard as j-words no matter how hard cast they are. Got to get the combo right and it might be a little more challenging- but fun!

[blue32]

My Savage is a 1 in 8. Maybe harder alloy?

[Mr Peabody]

I used that boolit in a Tikka 6.5x55 to no good results. The same rifle cut clover leafs with the NOE 129gr boolit for the Grendel. Might try a shorter boolit and see.

[Rcmaveric]

I shoot cast in my 260 Rem. Its a struggle and pain. I tried the RCBS 6.5-140 SIL and it was a fail. I noticed that nose on the bullet was too fat for my bore and nose sizing to .255 +/- .001 corrected the absurdly deep seating and make it a better bore rider. The problem i think you are having is the same problem i had. That 140g bullet is over an inch long. You may not be getting the velocity to achieve the proper RPMs to stabilize it before you over pressure the lead or it could be just bad fit and design. That's my hypothesis anyways. I tried everything but powders in the 5744 and 4064 burn ranges. I haven't given up on that bullet but it went to the back burner for now.

I have the 6.5 Grendel and the mold NOE 266-125-GR mold. Alas that nose is also super fat and forces an absurdly deep seating. Nose sizing that down to my bore helped a lot. I can now shoot that rifle with 13.8g or 2400. I haven't fine tuned that load yet but its a taste of success after so much failure. Do not seat into the lands. That causes a significant pressure spike. The goal is to get these bullets up to speed with out over pressuring them. That 125g bullet is significantly short (less than an inch) and since i can see some accuracy may add some validity to my earlier hypotheses. I had a Reloader 7 load for hunting, but sadly it wasn't repeatable so i need to retune that load.

NOE has 6.5 Creedmoor mold that matches the dimensions of my rifle. I ordered it and it will be here on or about the 5th for me to try out. I hoping to be able to skip the nose sizing. With a better fit i am hoping to hit about 2000fps with around MOA accuracy. That is my standard at least. I keep spereminting till hit it.

Yes, do a pound cast and get your groove and land dimensions and throat dimensions. Size the nose to around the land dimensions (you want it to ride it like a railroad, some recommend a light scratch of an engraving). Then pick you school of dark arts magic by sizing to .002 over groove or size to throat. I am with the throat sizers. Then we control the pressures without spikes to quickly or too hard that it deforms the bullet or degrades accuracy.

My .260 Remington is Savage 11 Hunter.

Brass is match prepped from .308 brass. Necked down, neck turned to .012, then annealed. The bullet at the moment is the NOE .266-125-GR nose sized to .255 and then checked and sized to .266. COL is 2.665. WLR primers and charge is 13.8g Alliant 2400.

Target is at 50 yards from rest with a scope. Not as tight as I want but it wasnt fine tuned. Was doing .5 increment load test. Accuracy was between 13.8 and 14.8. Accuracy degraded rapidly afterwards. For perspective, the dot on the target is about an inch. So that is 2 moa group. Good enough for hunting, but not bragging. 13.8g is repeatable with accuracy. https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180705/c588735eef54ad8ed39e07251751c9d9.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180705/bae2a7281bffab6626fb0d3a3161e3ac.jpg

[Rcmaveric]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=27_185&products_id=1696&osCsid=2hori1meigt2r3lq60264s17s1

Link to the grendel mold I used.

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/product_info.php?cPath=27_523&products_id=4700

Link to the creedmoor bullet mold I ordered.

The throat drawings of the creedmoor and .260 look simmilar enough to my untrained eye that it may work.

Those rcbs-6.5-140 bullets are ment for the 6.5 mausers, japs, and 6.5×51 with their worn throats. The fit may be the issue aswell since we have nice new guns with tight chambers.
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[blue32]

Thanks for the response. I'm using a Savage 11 TH XP, so we essentially have the same rifle. I have put 1,700 rather hot jacket loads through it and was chasing the lands. I'll try the suggestion for shorter bullet and larger diameter.

[Rcmaveric]

I only put about 100 jacketed bullets through mine to break it in. They say small bore guns are the hardest to get cast to work with. Just dont give up and dont get frustrated. Irritation clogs the imagination. Been afew times i had to set that gun down and take break while i wade through my notes and information for fresh ideas.

I have also had to break down a lot of failed experiments in that gun. My gut still tells me that AC 5744 may be the ticket. I havent worked with anything slower than RX7 in cast though. My imagination invisions the bore filling with gas. A larger bore will need a faster powder to fill that void while a smaller one may need a slower powder. I have noticed this trend in my riffles.

Side note, seating gas checks below the case neck doesnt apear to affect accuracy.
This also one of the only guns i have yet to lead bad while experimenting. **knocks on wood** because i have 25 test rounds loaded up.

I really do think my biggest problem is lack of good bullet design and fit for the .260. Really limited on the 6.5 cal cast choices. And powder choice. Or it may be some thing completly simple and once we find the key all the other peices will fall together and all the powders will start working.

With cast in the creedmoor being a new thing i hope the 6.5 cal choices take off. I would like to take a deer with a cast bullet from this gun. My velocity goal is 1850 to 2000 fps with this gun.

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[Rcmaveric]

My alloy is 1 part COWW to 1 part Range scraps and then air cooled (the range scraps is fluxed with sulfur a few times with 2 tbls of sulfer). Then its air cooled and aged. I dont add tin, i just crank up the heat. Most of bullets are a month old before being shot due to how i do my restocking. Think the BHN comes out a round 10 or more. Maybe i should heat treating?

I want to try a copper enriched alloy.

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[blue32]

I'd like to try that 134 gr. FN Kurtz in double GC but not brass. Guess I'll have to wait for them to make another run.

[JMax]

blue32 I had similar issues with my Norwegian Krag in 6.5 Swede in that no normal 6.5 cast bullet would work with the short throat in my Krag. I worked with Swede at NOE resulting a nice bore rider that shoots 2-3” groups at 100yards with peep sights in my rifle. It’s called the hunter and is 145 grains .268”. Let me know if you want a few to try and I will include some gas checks as well.

[RedlegEd]

I only put about 100 jacketed bullets through mine to break it in. They say small bore guns are the hardest to get cast to work with. Just dont give up and dont get frustrated. Irritation clogs the imagination. Been afew times i had to set that gun down and take break while i wade through my notes and information for fresh ideas.

I have also had to break down a lot of failed experiments in that gun. My gut still tells me that AC 5744 may be the ticket. I havent worked with anything slower than RX7 in cast though. My imagination invisions the bore filling with gas. A larger bore will need a faster powder to fill that void while a smaller one may need a slower powder. I have noticed this trend in my riffles.

Side note, seating gas checks below the case neck doesnt apear to affect accuracy.
This also one of the only guns i have yet to lead bad while experimenting. **knocks on wood** because i have 25 test rounds loaded up.

I really do think my biggest problem is lack of good bullet design and fit for the .260. Really limited on the 6.5 cal cast choices. And powder choice. Or it may be some thing completly simple and once we find the key all the other peices will fall together and all the powders will start working.

With cast in the creedmoor being a new thing i hope the 6.5 cal choices take off. I would like to take a deer with a cast bullet from this gun. My velocity goal is 1850 to 2000 fps with this gun.

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Hi. I've got the same NOE 140gr bullet and a newly rebored .260 Rem (24" bbl, 1:8 twist.) I just finished breaking in the barrel, and would like to start working on a good cast load using that same bullet. How did your development efforts go?
TIA,
Ed

[Echo]

My Savage is a 1 in 8. Maybe harder alloy?

How about a slower powder? I know you said that you had tried 4831 - how about 4350? My thinking is that fast (2400, for example) hit the boolit harder than a slower powder, the slower giving the boolit more of a shove than a whack, and seems that the boolit would be less likely to skid on the rifling.

[Rcmaveric]

So far so good. Work, kids and life keep from the range alot. This bullet definitely works better than the RCBS 140-SIL. Also works better than my Grendel bullet and doesnt require any nose sizing. I think the fast twist of the 260 Rem is the limiting factor. The fast twist over exaggerates minor defects. Think of an out of balance gyro. Low RPMS and you wont notice a thing but speed it up and wobbles and chatters. There are a few articles on here by Mr. Gibson on the topic of over RPM.

I have 4 test groups loaded up for the last fine tune ladder test. I have not chrono'ed any of the test as of yet. I was waiting until i got the fine tune and chrono'ed those rounds before i updated my 6.5mm thread. My quickloads has me under 2000 fps, but normal my bullets are faster that what quickloads predicts.

It took my first test and chopped all those in half:

Tight Group/ 6.5g/ for 14594 PSI @ 1155 FPS = a .75 inch square group at 50 yards. No gas check on those. Left that load as is for the kids to plink with. My tune latter but i am satisfied.

2400/ 14.2g/ for 19341 PSI @ 1654 PSI = a 1.5 inch round group at 50 ysrds. This group was either coming to gether or flying a part. Didnt do any more testing with 2400 running low on stock and velocity was similar to 4198.

4198/ 17g/ for 13568 PSI @ 1542 FPS = a nice 1 inch group at 50 yards.

H4895/ 26g / for 19710 PSI @ 1837 FPS = a nice .75 inch after excluding a flier caused by an extremely hot barrel. The H4895 made the barrel really hot. After allowing the barrel to cool between shots, it kept the groups tight.

The above was the preliminary test redone to find a starting point and it was very encouraging without any leading. My first test fell apart because i started my load developing too hot.

I have the following fine tune loaded up that I haven't shot yet:

Reloader 7:

16.7g @ 1461 fps

17g @ 1487 fps

17.3g @ 1512 fps

17.6g @ 1537 fps

18g @ 1562 fps

18.4g @ 1487 fps

18.7g @ 1639 fps

19.1g @ 1639 fps

Shooters World Buffalo Bore aka Lovex D060-1

15.5g @ 1609 FPS

16g @ 1650 FPS

16.5 @ 1690 FPS

17g @ 1768 FPS

17.5g @ 1769 FPS

18g @ 1860 FPS

H4895

24.8g @ 1771 fps

25.1g @ 1798 fps

25.4 @ 1819 FPS

25.7g @ 1839 FPS

26g @ 1860 fps

26.3 @ 1880 fps

26.6 @ 1901 FPS

So the results thus far are good and I will have more information next range visit. Hopefully next weekend. The above data is quickload generated, be that what it is, it can be off. I have seen my quickload as much as 150 FPS lower than what i get in real life. But it is close enough.

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[Herb in Pa]

Rcbs 140 Gr Sil, 17 grains of IMR 4198, I in 9 twist 260 remington Cooper rifle...…..10 shots @ 100 yards. 10 shots @ 1" CTC, 9 shots @ .660" CTC

[Rcmaveric]

Thats some good results. I am not familiar with the 260 Cooper.

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[RedlegEd]

Hi all. Went to the range today and here are the results of my cast loads using Blue Dot (other powders to follow, next up is AA5744.)
Ed

Basic Data:
Rifle: Remington 722, .260 REM, 24" Bbl (make unknown), 1:8" Twist (recently rebored from .22-250)
Bullet: NOE 140gr FNGC (http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/images/n.o.e._bullet_moulds_266-140-fn_gc_by2_sketch.jpg), #2 Lyman (mine averaged 141.2gr w/GC & lube), Sized 0.266, BAC followed by TL
Powder: Blue Dot, No Filler, each load weighed
Primer: CCI 200 LRP
Brass: R-P (resized from 7mm-08)
OAL: 2.350 (Comparator), jump 0.02"

Overall observations: easy shooting, barrel tends to heat quickly at higher charges, and some inconsistent velocities. I didn't get the first two MV at 7.5gr because the sensitivity on my Magnetospeed wasn't set correctly (needs to be Hi-1 for this bullet.) I did noticed obvious wobbling at lower velocities that seemed to go away at/about 1220 fps. It could also be that shooting at 50 yds vs 100 or 200 yds didn't give the bullet a chance to stabilize. I got no pressure signs at all, so I think I can safely push higher than 9.5gr (which was the very best group of the bunch.)

Ed

227352227353

[Rcmaveric]

Thats good stuff fora nice plinking and small game load.

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[Rcmaveric]

Finally made it to the range.

Riffle is a Savage Hunter 11 in .260 Remington. Barrel is 22 inches and 1 in 8 twist. I think the twist rate is the killer.

Bullet is the NOE-266-140FN (designed for the Creedmoor). Cast from half RS and COWW for BHN of 10. Lube is SL-68B.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/210c776b1f6af3d77beef1121f7a85b0.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/8942907ce38c34099baf148803cb1564.jpg

Odd flyers. Could be anything from state of anneal on the cases to neck tension. These cases are neck turner though. Unless i bugggered that.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/839b4a3e081135fd6df3bea7347ad8a1.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/d8a8dc7e2f53d6c9e37ba5119f179e2a.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181008/445e767292b782fd82c9f932328ca013.jpg

Obviously the first group is the best. Next group opened alot. The subsequent groups started verticle stringing bad. Buffalo Bore is a hot powder. Had to take 2 shots let the barrel cool and repeat.

Saddly i dont think i can hit my 1850 fps goal. But, bright side. The gun is shooting cast accurately. So it is a win.

I made a rookie mistake with H4895 group. The plano case was broken. I didnt mark the cases. I droped them and mixed them. You would think i would learned that lesson years ago after the 5th time i did that.

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[Larry Gibson]

"I think the twist rate is the killer."

That would be correct. The "odd flyers" are the result of the bullet exceeding it's RPM Threshold. The first load at 1515 fps is running 136,350 rpm....The heavier loads are obviously pushing the RPM over 140,000......

[Rcmaveric]

The 17.6g of Reloader seven was 1690 Avg FPS. I figured it was close to being over rpmd.

There are a few variables I need to illuminate though. Like sorted brass and double check neck tension. Try and rule out some posibilities.

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[RedlegEd]

Hi all. Went to the range today to check out some cast M1 and 260 REM loads. I'll just post the best two of the 260 REM targets using AA5744. There's really no "official" published data on light/reduced loads for this powder and cast bullets, so I interpolated from existing data starting low, and working my way up. Notice the difference from the expected velocity vs the actual. Another reason to never start high. Here are the results.

Basic Data:
Rifle: Remington 722, .260 REM, 24" Bbl (make unknown), 1:8" Twist (recently rebored from .22-250)
Bullet: NOE 266 FNGC, #2 Lyman (mine averaged 141.2gr w/GC & lube), sized 0.266, BAC followed by TL
Powder: AA5744, no Filler, each load weighed
Primer: WLRP
Brass: RP/Starline (stupid me...I mixed them)
OAL: 2.340 (Comparator), jump 0.03"

Overall observations: These had a little more "oomph" than the Blue Dot loads, but still easy shooting. Also, the barrel did not tend to heat as quickly (based on measured barrel temp.) I had no pressure signs at the upper limit, but had a few unexplained flyers, so I think I might have exceeded the RMP threshold of the bullet (thanks Larry Gibson.) I also posted a table of all the loads fired so you can see how the AA5744 did in my rifle with these bullets (and mixed brass ...[sigh.][smilie=b:) I believe the best load will be between 13.0 and 13.5gr. If you notice the group locations relative to the aim point, they're right on top of each other.


229311

229308 229309

Ed

[Rcmaveric]

Seams the going consensus is going to be sub 1600 fps. Around 1500 fps puts the bullet in the 800ft lb energy category though which is minimum hunting energy. So its an accurate and useable load.

External balastic calculator has me usable balastics out to 125 yards. Starts droping like a rock after that.

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[blue32]

I figured out the RCBS 6.5-140 SILH today at 50 yards.

PC with Eastwood light violet, sized to .265" with a gas check and seated over 17.0 gr 5744 at a COAL of 2.638". I also tried the same load with no check and the results were clear. Checked on the left. Unchecked on the right.
First six shots hit low (scope set for jacketed). After adjustment, another three shots. Adjusted windage. Final three shots in center.
The large orange circle on the right was shot with three rounds. One hit to the right of the top small target. The rest, who knows. Didn't expect the gas check to make such a big difference. I'll try with traditional lube next time but at least I have a baseline now. This has been quite the journey and reading a lot of old posts on here really helped, so a big thank you to everyone!

266275

266276

266277

[blue32]

I wanted to revisit this thread because I'm still learning. While the bullet is the same the lube has been replaced with WLL carnauba red. COAL is the same but cases on the loads below have been FL sized. Alloy is 1:3 Lino to range scrap (maybe 12.4 bhn). Aside from the A5744 loads, these are unpublished loads.

This site isn't letting me upload any images but doesn't give a reason other than "failure." The following 4 shot groups are at 50 yards:
11.0 gr Unique, 2" and shooting 1" low. Previously had success with load and used as benchmark. Shot a second group to confirm lackluster grouping.
13.0 gr 2400, 1.75". Round point of aim group but not quite there.
14.0 gr 2400, 0.8". What an improvement one grain makes, and I have a lot of 2400.
17.0 gr A5744, 1.5". Promising round group.
19.0 gr A5744, 1.75". Would have been .75" without flier. Wish the powder wansn't so expensive.
17.0 gr H4198, 2.25". Vertical stringing. Might try the IMR variety if I can get some.

I finished the day blasting an 8" steel plate at 100 yards and landed every round (I'd rather do that than group shooting any day). It's so nice to shoot a modern scoped rifle in a modern cartridge for such a marginal cost. I'm going to enjoy watching my boxes of 6.5 jacketed bullets collect dust.

[blue32]

I was able to get the 14.0 gr 2400 load over the chrono: 1,607 fps average. SD was 17 so this will be my standard load.

[gwpercle]

Try a lighter boolit .
I was all set to jump on the 260 Remington band wagon . I wanted to load long heavy for caliber boolits like I do in my 7 X 57 mauser (160 and 175 gr boolits in it ) I had 500 308 cases to neck down to 260 Rem. and planned to use 140 gr. cast boolits ... but after reading the dismal results with heavy boolits and seeing some compaints on the rate of twist and short throat ... it's a shame what could have been wasn't ... those long sleek 6.5 boolits would have been good hog and deer getters !
I gave up on that idea ... still have 500 308 cases !
Gary

[blue32]

Try a lighter boolit .
I was all set to jump on the 260 Remington band wagon . I wanted to load long heavy for caliber boolits like I do in my 7 X 57 mauser (160 and 175 gr boolits in it ) I had 500 308 cases to neck down to 260 Rem. and planned to use 140 gr. cast boolits ... but after reading the dismal results with heavy boolits and seeing some compaints on the rate of twist and short throat ... it's a shame what could have been wasn't ... those long sleek 6.5 boolits would have been good hog and deer getters !
I gave up on that idea ... still have 500 308 cases !
Gary

I got it working now. Refer to post 26-27.

[blue32]

310846

Not much of a group shooter but the load seems to be fairly consistent.

[Shopdog]

A month,maybe two ago?

Snagged a Timney Hit trigger,which I adj to 1lb. And a new to me,mint Bushnell elite 6500,4.5-30X50 scope. 28" Brux HV brrl about 1/2 used up by a F class shooter who gave me a VG deal on. Single shot R700 ADL. Shoots the Lyman 268666(think that's it) into low node bragging groups with IMR4198..something around 20g. Shoots the Saeco 140g into screamer groups,that would be called a liar if I posted the 5 shot sizes..... with juuust under, starting JB book loads of IMR4831. It is slap embarrassingly accurate. And I'm NOT fully ringing it out. In the pic below you can see my "light" (pure laziness) bag setup. Bought this Protektor aluminum,and non leather set because I don't mind leaving it out on the back porch whilst raining. And it's lite.

There's WAY too much bag movement working the bolt. I'm not a BR shooter,losing patience. Instead, step out.... send 3,5,or 10 downrange and go back inside. No sighters or foulers.

I also would rate my wind reading at about maybe a 3?... on a 10 scale. So,there is no doubt that a real BR shooter could easily set some records with this rig. It needs a little added weight in the HS stocks butt. The gun rides in the bag nose heavy.