S&W Model 14 soured

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

My friend brought his 6" Model 14 to me. He said that for more than 30 years it has been the most accurate revolver he has owned. Then one day recently the accuracy went away. The sudden change made me think of a crack. I took the revolver home and examined it under bright light with high magnification, and could find none. He said the gun has only fired 148 gr and 158 gr cast bullets loaded to target velocity. The only thing I found was some lead buildup in the chambers. I thoroughly cleaned the gun and mounted a 2x pistol scope (it was already drilled and tapped). Using leather sandbags on a concrete bench, five shot groups were between 2-1/2" and 3-3/4" at 25 yards. My own Model 14 shoots around one inch. I reexamined the gun last night and can find nothing amiss.

What else should I look for?

Thanks, Tom

[Green Frog]

Damage to muzzle crown? Side-to-side looseness in cylinder? Muzzle wear (check for “funnel mouth”) from improper cleaning? Damage/wear to forcing cone?

Did the change in accuracy occur over a long period or was it sudden? If the former, barrel/bore wear is possible, if the latter, I’d look for some specific damage. Hope this helps.

Froggie

[Tatume]

Damage to muzzle crown? Side-to-side looseness in cylinder? Muzzle wear (check for “funnel mouth”) from improper cleaning? Damage/wear to forcing cone?

All appear fine.

[anothernewb]

frame stretch? cylinder gap maybe opened up? grasping at straws myself. you said you cleaned the chambers. how about the bore?

[Tatume]

I thoroughly cleaned all of the gun. Cylinder gap is excellent.

[Calamity Jake]

Did you shoot his loads when testing? or yours? If his, did he change anything?
May need to get the barrel scoped for wear!!!

[Tatume]

Hi Jake,

I shot both his and mine. The interior of the barrel appears excellent. The forcing cone is also in excellent condition, as is the crown.

Thanks, Tom

[buckwheatpaul]

What were the bullets sized to? Possibly too small and you would have a leading problem...my 2 cents worth.

[Prodigal Son]

It's the heat outside boolits getting to soft! Just kidding, if there isn't anything noticeable maybe slug bore and mic it! My problem is the guns are still the same I just don't shoot as well as I used to!

[Tatume]

Hi Paul,

There is no significant leading, and the bullets are correctly sized for the 0.3575" throats.

Thanks, Tom

[OS OK]

cylinder lockup worn, off timing?

[jsizemore]

I don't know if you cleaned and lubed the action. I'd check the hammer for drag and since you have a 14, I'd swap hammer springs. Could be inconsistent ignition.

[Tatume]

It's the heat outside boolits getting to soft! Just kidding, if there isn't anything noticeable maybe slug bore and mic it! My problem is the guns are still the same I just don't shoot as well as I used to!

I've done this. Didn't expect to find anything, and didn't. The problem is a recent development. Thanks, Tom

[Tatume]

cylinder lockup worn, off timing?

This is a possibility I'm going to check soon. Next time at the range I'll drape the cylinder in paper and look for spitting of lead shavings.

Thanks, Tom

[Walks]

GEEZ,
That is a hard thing to hear. I have had a 14 6" just about that long. And I'm sorry to hear it. Mine is my favorite SMITH.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I bought my 6" model 14 3rd handed back in the mid `70`s. It had been tuned some and smoothed in the right places, I did a Wolff spring kit change and went from there. All I`ve put thru mine was 148 gr. target loads I made up using 3.3 Gr. of either HP-38 or Win 231 powders. It still is `scary` accurate to this day.Robert

[sutherpride59]

Easy way to verify timing is with a brownells range rod.

[MT Gianni]

Put 6 stick on bullseyes on a target and mark the cylinder with a pencil. Shoot one at each bullseye with at least 3 cylinders indexing each time with your start line. Is one charge hole a problem or not. That gives you a point to go on.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

If it went from good to bad in short order, damage is likely the culprit. Did it get dropped? If landing on it's side, the cylinder stop and/or crane could be damaged. Does it still lock up tight? Any change from "before"? These are all I can think of if the crown looks good. When it went bad, had the owner changed ammo or load recipe?

[Char-Gar]

Easy way to verify timing is with a brownells range rod.

That would be my suggestion as well. When a pistol that shot well and then goes sour there are a limited number of things that could be the problem.

A range rod will show if there are timing issues. I suspect that after 30 years of shooting the timing has gone wonky. It happens.

[jonp]

frame stretch? cylinder gap maybe opened up? grasping at straws myself. you said you cleaned the chambers. how about the bore?

Frame stretch would not occur, I think, until cutting of the top strap was in evidence.

You don't say if he had a scope mounted when the "accuracy went away". The barrel didn't turn, did it?

My 14 shoots better than I can, that is for sure.

[TCFAN]

Hello Folks,

My friend brought his 6" Model 14 to me. He said that for more than 30 years it has been the most accurate revolver he has owned. Then one day recently the accuracy went away. The sudden change made me think of a crack. I took the revolver home and examined it under bright light with high magnification, and could find none. He said the gun has only fired 148 gr and 158 gr cast bullets loaded to target velocity. The only thing I found was some lead buildup in the chambers. I thoroughly cleaned the gun and mounted a 2x pistol scope (it was already drilled and tapped). Using leather sandbags on a concrete bench, five shot groups were between 2-1/2" and 3-3/4" at 25 yards. My own Model 14 shoots around one inch. I reexamined the gun last night and can find nothing amiss.

What else should I look for?

Thanks, Tom
I had a 14-6 that I bought new in 1998 that did the very same thing. I shot that gun for 19 plus years with nothing but cast wadcutters in 38 special WC cases using 3.2 grs of Bullseye.It was a very accurate revolver.Then one day I shot it and the accuracy was gone. The day before it shot normal. When the accuracy went it would not stay on a 2 foot piece of paper at 25 yards.It also started spitting lead.
So I sent S&W a e-mail and they sent back a prepaid shipping label. They had the gun for about 6 weeks before they called me on the phone and said that there was nothing they could do to fix it since they had no barrels in stock. They said they were going to scrape it and they would send me any handgun that I wanted for a replacement since my gun was covered under their life time warranty.So about 3 weeks later I got a new 686 that is every bit as accurate as my old 14-6..
If your friends model 14 is covered under their life time warranty maybe he should contact S&W and see what they say.

[Tatume]

Easy way to verify timing is with a Brownells range rod.

I've checked timing; it's good.


Put 6 stick on bullseyes on a target and mark the cylinder with a pencil. Shoot one at each bullseye with at least 3 cylinders indexing each time with your start line. Is one charge hole a problem or not. That gives you a point to go on.

I'm going to try this tomorrow.

[Tatume]

If it went from good to bad in short order, damage is likely the culprit. Did it get dropped? If landing on it's side, the cylinder stop and/or crane could be damaged. Does it still lock up tight? Any change from "before"? These are all I can think of if the crown looks good. When it went bad, had the owner changed ammo or load recipe?

All these things have been checked and are good. It had a red dot. I mounted a 2x scope. I've tried several types of ammo.

[Tatume]

Frame stretch would not occur, I think, until cutting of the top strap was in evidence.

You don't say if he had a scope mounted when the "accuracy went away". The barrel didn't turn, did it?

My 14 shoots better than I can, that is for sure.

It had a red dot. I put on a scope. The barrel has not turned; if it did the flat spot on the bottom would looked crooked. Besides, it's pinned.

[Tatume]

If your friends model 14 is covered under their life time warranty maybe he should contact S&W and see what they say.

If I don't figure it out this week I'll call S&W.

[Bookworm]

I had a 14-6 that I bought new in 1998 that did the very same thing. I shot that gun for 19 plus years with nothing but cast wadcutters in 38 special WC cases using 3.2 grs of Bullseye.It was a very accurate revolver.Then one day I shot it and the accuracy was gone. The day before it shot normal. When the accuracy went it would not stay on a 2 foot piece of paper at 25 yards.It also started spitting lead.
So I sent S&W a e-mail and they sent back a prepaid shipping label. They had the gun for about 6 weeks before they called me on the phone and said that there was nothing they could do to fix it since they had no barrels in stock. They said they were going to scrape it and they would send me any handgun that I wanted for a replacement since my gun was covered under their life time warranty.So about 3 weeks later I got a new 686 that is every bit as accurate as my old 14-6..
If your friends model 14 is covered under their life time warranty maybe he should contact S&W and see what they say.


I have a 14-3 (half lug), and a 14-6 (full lug). I wouldn't want to trade either one for ANY 686, much less a new one.

I do realize you were helpless in the decision, as S&W had your revolver. Such a shame.

[TCFAN]

I have a 14-3 (half lug), and a 14-6 (full lug). I wouldn't want to trade either one for ANY 686, much less a new one.

I do realize you were helpless in the decision, as S&W had your revolver. Such a shame.

I really hated to give up my 14-6 it was a great revolver.The 686 that they sent to me is every bit as good with a better trigger pull. So over all I was very pleased the way Smith took care of my needs.

[9.3X62AL]

I cannot think of any answers to this mystery that have not already been asked and eliminated. Maybe the barrel is at its end of accurate life, but that is hard to understand with a lifetime of lead bullets being used. Since it is a pin-barrel variant.......I don't think I would send the revolver back to S&W given the company's stated absence of replacement barrels. The receiver seems to be just fine, and a replacement barrel like those mounted on PPC custom revolvers seems like a better resolution for me. I am not jazzed about the multi-step front sights on those Aristocrat ribs, but a nice Patridge up front with a matched-up rear sight would suit me right to the ground. Even in my dotage, I cannot brook optics on a revolver or self-loading pistol.

[darne]

Are the grips solid to the frame. If the locating pin holes open up so will the groups. It may not be noticeable?

Hope this helps.

Dan

[Tatume]

Are the grips solid to the frame. If the locating pin holes open up so will the groups. It may not be noticeable?

Hope this helps.

Dan

I've tried three different sets of grips. No joy.

[Tatume]

Since it is a pin-barrel variant.......I don't think I would send the revolver back to S&W given the company's stated absence of replacement barrels. The receiver seems to be just fine, and a replacement barrel like those mounted on PPC custom revolvers seems like a better resolution for me.

This is sound reasoning. Thanks.

[jonp]

If I don't figure it out this week I'll call S&W.

I'll be interested in whether you get an answer someone here has not come up with. I can't imagine how many cast you would have to put down the barrel of a 14 to "shoot it out" but I'll wager very, very few would do it in a lifetime.

[MT Gianni]

I own a model 14 I had to have retimed. It was the opinion of the gunsmith that DA shooting, of which this gun saw a lot, was tougher on the timing than SA shooting by an exponential amount. Unless it has been dropped and the crown damaged it is probably timing.

[Char-Gar]

There are a finite number of things that could cause the revolver to turn sour. All of them have been discussed and in turn have been dismissed as not the problem. So, I am starting to think the revolver is not the main problem.

[DerekP Houston]

There are a finite number of things that could cause the revolver to turn sour. All of them have been discussed and in turn have been dismissed as not the problem. So, I am starting to think the revolver is not the main problem.

That should be easy to eliminate and it appears the OP already did. Put said gun in a rest and shoot without human interference.

[dubber123]

Same mount used with both optics? I would screw a factory rear sight on and give it a try.

[Petrol & Powder]

I think everyone has offered the likely problems and many have been eliminated.

I will relate an event that I experienced one time on a semi-auto pistol.

I had a Sig P220 that was a tack driver and then one day it just started shooting shotgun like patterns. The gun wasn't new but it was far from worn out. After much head scratching I finally found a small crack on the lug below the barrel. The only thing I could come up with was the possibility that the crack affected the lockup and therefore the consistency of returning to battery.
The crack was so small that I didn't see it at first but it was the only thing I could find wrong.
I related this story because it may be worth going back and re-examining the gun for cracks.

I also agree with Al, I wouldn't send it back to S&W and risk getting a newer gun as a replacement. I would attempt to fix it.

[Tatume]

Today I was working on the Model 14 again, still no joy. Just before I ran out of ammo I shot a target with my Model 686, the cylinder of which just came back from DougGuy. Twenty five yard target fired at twenty five yards, with my own cast bullets. The problem with the Model 14 revolver is the main problem.

223071

[M-Tecs]

Don't know if the effects of this would be that severe but when the firing pin springs of a rifle get weak groups open way up.

[country gent]

could the crane have gotten bent or sprung affecting cylinders alighnment?

[Tatume]

Don't know if the effects of this would be that severe but when the firing pin springs of a rifle get weak groups open way up.

That's something to think about. I wonder if Wolf makes an extra-strength spring?

[Tatume]

could the crane have gotten bent or sprung affecting cylinders alignment?

The crane closes up with a really tight seam. I would expect a gap if the crane were sprung. This one appears to have been fitted by a master. My own Model 14 is the same.

[376Steyr]

Hi Jake,

I shot both his and mine. The interior of the barrel appears excellent. The forcing cone is also in excellent condition, as is the crown.

Thanks, Tom

You probably should have seen it on examination, but maybe a bulged barrel?

I had a .22 Kit Gun go bad on me once, turned out it had a donut of lead in the forcing cone. That doesn't seem to be the case here, though.

[Geezer in NH]

Trip to S&W needed

[GooseGestapo]

Don’t send it to S&W. They’ll scrap it for spare parts and send you another new gun, maybe... Parted out gun is worth far more to them for spares than a new gun. Took them 30yrs to figure this out. (ie: a Cessna 150 airplane “airworthy” is worth $12,000-20,000 on open market; parted out it’ll bring 30,000-40,000...)

Dollars to donuts it’s developed an end-shake issue with the cylinder. Several ways to fix this. I go through this every 2-3yrs with my PPC revolvers.
1. Shims. Ron Powers/Brownells sell shims.
2. Old school techniques; peen the yoke and gas ring. (S&W’s DON’T Have “cranes” Colts have cranes).
3. Replace yoke and/or gas ring. (See other previous mention of parted out value of a S&W).

I choose to use the second option. Till only shims will do the trick.
Now, the tough trick is to find a reputable qualified revolver Smith.

Yeah, exactly the reason I bought tools and learned to work on my own...

[sw282]

Look on Flebay or Gunbroken auction sites for a S&W ''parts'' gun of the same model.. lt will usually contain every part but the frame.. These are usually seized guns that are destroyed/salvaged by various govt agencies..

[Petrol & Powder]

When dealing with endshake issues, I prefer to "stretch" the yoke rather than use shims.

I also agree with others, Don't send that gun to S&W, you'll never get it back.

The suddenness of the problem makes me think that it is a crack that just isn't easily detectable.

[Tatume]

The suddenness of the problem makes me think that it is a crack that just isn't easily detectable.

This is what I believe also. It's there, I just can't see it.

[Bookworm]

This is what I believe also. It's there, I just can't see it.

Magnaflux it.
I used this technique back in my machine shop days to find invisible cracks. Simple and effective.

[45-70 Chevroner]

Don’t send it to S&W. They’ll scrap it for spare parts and send you another new gun, maybe... Parted out gun is worth far more to them for spares than a new gun. Took them 30yrs to figure this out. (ie: a Cessna 150 airplane “airworthy” is worth $12,000-20,000 on open market; parted out it’ll bring 30,000-40,000...)

Dollars to donuts it’s developed an end-shake issue with the cylinder. Several ways to fix this. I go through this every 2-3yrs with my PPC revolvers.
1. Shims. Ron Powers/Brownells sell shims.
2. Old school techniques; peen the yoke and gas ring. (S&W’s DON’T Have “cranes” Colts have cranes).
3. Replace yoke and/or gas ring. (See other previous mention of parted out value of a S&W).

I choose to use the second option. Till only shims will do the trick.
Now, the tough trick is to find a reputable qualified revolver Smith.

Yeah, exactly the reason I bought tools and learned to work on my own...

This was my thought also. I have a 5 screw Model 27 that started doing the same thing, I had a shim put in and it solved the problem.

[Taylorman1949]

Sometimes the threads where the barrel meet the frame become loose after many rounds, it could be a tiny amount undetectable in handling, but enough to amplify during vibration of firing.

[Tatume]

I talked to S&W. The Model 14-2 is not covered by a warrantee. They sent me a return shipping label, and will charge $90 per hour to examine the gun, with a $45 minimum. If, as I suspect, the barrel is cracked and I just can't see it, they cannot repair it. They will then ship the gun back to me as is. I'm very reluctant to spend money when I think it is highly probable that it will be a complete waste. I don't know what else I can do.

Opinions?

[9.3X62AL]

What I said in Post #29.

[Tatume]

What I said in Post #29.

I've been thinking about that too. Thanks.

[sigep1764]

$90 goes a long way toward a nice new bull barrel too!!!

[Tatume]

Magnaflux it. I used this technique back in my machine shop days to find invisible cracks. Simple and effective.

I need to learn more about this.


$90 goes a long way toward a nice new bull barrel too!!!

Yes, it does. But what if there is an incipient crack in the frame as a result of the barrel being cracked. Everything about this gun is a gamble. I'm weighing the probabilities. Thanks.

[sigep1764]

What about getting ahold of a loupe? You know, the jewelers magnifying eyepiece? I used one this last weekend and oh my lord you can see every little detail through it.

[Tatume]

I talked to S&W. The Model 14-2 is not covered by a warrantee. They sent me a return shipping label, and will charge $90 per hour to examine the gun, with a $45 minimum. If, as I suspect, the barrel is cracked and I just can't see it, they cannot repair it. They will then ship the gun back to me as is.

I decided to send the gun to S&W. If they can tell me what is wrong, and if it helps me to return the gun to service, it will be worth the money. If the barrel is cracked and the frame is sound, then I will have the foundation for a nice custom gun. Thanks all, and I'll let you know what they find.

[Green Frog]

Tatume,

If it comes out that you need either a replacement barrel or cylinder, please contact me via PM. I took both off of the Model 14-3 I used as a donor for my faux Model 16-3. Both are in excellent shape except for a little blue wear as would be expected.

Regards,
Froggie

[Tatume]

Froggie, PM sent.

[Tatume]

The Model 14 was returned from S&W. The work order was terse:

Cylinder worn
Replace cylinder (blue)
Replace hand
Replace bolt

Yesterday I tested the gun. It shoots one-inch groups at 100 yards. All is well.

Take care, Tom

[Mal Paso]

Look at the fired brass, are the firing pin marks off center. When my 629 was out of time you could see it on the primers.

Normal wear was the issue. The problem showed after an especially long day of shooting. The extra crud put more than the usual drag on the cylinder. Accuracy went from great to awful in one afternoon.

IF that's the problem Brownelles has an aftermarket hand that you don't have to file the window on the gun to fit.

Nevermind, Didn't have my coffee yet.

[Silvercreek Farmer]

I'm glad S&W came through for you.

[MT Gianni]

Glad it worked for you.

[nvbirdman]

Sounds like you got your moneys worth.

[9.3X62AL]

That is a REALLY GOOD outcome.

[Tatume]

I'm so sorry. I meant to say "one-inch groups at 25 yards."

[Char-Gar]

I'm so sorry. I meant to say "one-inch groups at 25 yards."

I am glad you made that correcton. I will now have to take back what I was thinking. :-)

[jsizemore]

I'm so sorry. I meant to say "one-inch groups at 25 yards."

I was getting ready to complain about mine and send it in.

[JoeJames]

I'm so sorry. I meant to say "one-inch groups at 25 yards."That's a relief. It would of certainly made my old Model 15 look bad.

[Geezer in NH]

Trip to S&W needed
As I said 3 1/2 months ago. They will fix when they can. Doomsayers and not likers Pltttttttt!

S&W has always been first class to me.

[Tatume]

The gun was at S&W about 3-1/2 months. I didn't ignore you.

[glockfan]

the only valid test to perform is ''magnaflux'ing''' the gun. it'll tell the story.if there's no microcracks, then swapping some springs-parts will get the accuracy back.

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Replacing the cylinder, bolt, and hand indicate there was significant wear. With no mention of replacing the barrel it makes me think now there might have been a crack in the cylinder since the problem began from one day to the next. Without the original cylinder to inspect, not much else to do now that enjoy a great shooting revolver. Glad things worked out well.

[Tatume]

Replacing the cylinder, bolt, and hand indicate there was significant wear. With no mention of replacing the barrel it makes me think now there might have been a crack in the cylinder since the problem began from one day to the next. Without the original cylinder to inspect, not much else to do now that enjoy a great shooting revolver. Glad things worked out well.

Actually, they returned the original cylinder. Although I agree with you, I still can't find a crack.


the only valid test to perform is ''magnaflux'ing''' the gun. it'll tell the story.if there's no microcracks, then swapping some springs-parts will get the accuracy back.

I strongly suspect magnafluxing would find a crack in the cylinder. The original owner said he was shooting the gun, and it was shooting well. Then on one shot he felt some vibration, and it never shot well again. We think that was when the crack occurred.

I'm not going to spend the money to find the crack by magnafluxing. It's an interesting academic question, but the answer has no practical value, as I'll never repair the faulty cylinder.

Take care, Tom

[Green Frog]

Tom,

I've seen some really neat pencil holders made out of "retired" cylinders... maybe you should find a little slab of some pretty wood and make one for your desk from the cracked(?) cylinder. There wouldn't be any pressure on it and accuracy would be a moot point. ;)

Froggie

[Char-Gar]

I would surmise from the parts replace, the star/ratchet on the back of the cylinder was worn, as well as both the bolt and hand that contracted the cylinder.

[sw282]

My first center fire revolver was a Model 14 S&W... l hope it will survive me.