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wap41
11-28-2005, 09:18 AM
Just aquired a win highwall in 22wcf,trying to find some 40 -45 gr bullets Any ideas?Thanks

Bullshop
11-28-2005, 01:47 PM
Just aquired a win highwall in 22wcf,trying to find some 40 -45 gr bullets Any ideas?Thanks
Bull Shop
BIC/BS

Bret4207
11-29-2005, 04:22 PM
What you have is basicly the fore runner to the 22 Hornet. A cast boolit of around 45 gr and pinch of powder should work well. If you can access any older 40's and 50's reloading manuals you should find some info with powders till around. Phil Sharpes and Earl Naramore Handloading books have them too.

Ross
11-30-2005, 12:26 AM
[QUOTE Phil Sharpes and Earl Naramore Handloading books have them too.[/QUOTE]
I do not think that my Naramore books have loading data, and the reference pages do not show the .22 WCF.
I don't find loads in Nonte, but a chart shows factory bullets from .2275" to .2285".
It was just a wee peek, and the data may be there in plain sight for all to see but me.
Cheers from Darkest California,
Ross

Frank46
11-30-2005, 04:15 AM
Wap41, if you are interested I'll scrounge through my bullets and see if I have any hornet bullets. Think I may have some 40-45 gr bullets. Yours for the asking. Frank

Bret4207
11-30-2005, 08:01 AM
I was talking about HORNET data for cast. It's the same case IIRC.

Wayne Smith
11-30-2005, 08:26 AM
I don't know anything about it, but was surprised to see Midway currently carries new made ammo for it.

Willbird
11-30-2005, 10:03 AM
Well the factory ammo would be great small game loads for 22 Hornet. I have a small bolt action euro looking single shot 22 wcf. when Dad got it there was excessive headspace, it locks up on the bolt handle and somebody had been shooting 22 hornet it we guessed. Neat little rifle with a single set trigger. Dad silver soldered in a piece of steel to get it back in headspace, I will follow this thread for some loading data.

Bill

Bret4207
11-30-2005, 10:35 AM
Yes, the usual disclaimer should be added. Treat it as a low pressure Hornet, not a straight modern Hornet. I'd go for a 45 cast design at around 14-1700fps.

StarMetal
11-30-2005, 11:49 AM
I don't know anything about it, but was surprised to see Midway currently carries new made ammo for it.

wayne

Are you sure you didn't see 22 wrf ammo? I couldn't find 22 wcf ammo at midway. Paste the page if you can.

Joe

Wayne Smith
11-30-2005, 11:14 PM
Sorry, all, Joe is right.

w30wcf
12-01-2005, 01:39 PM
wap41,

I have shot many .22 W.C.F. equivalent loads in my Winchester '43 Hornet rifle over the past several years. My favorite load is 3.3 grs. of 231 sparked by a CCI 500 small pistol primer under a 45 gr. .225" diameter cast bullet.
It goes across the chronograph at 1,540 f.p.s. On a calm day, it will group into 1 1/2" @ 100 yards.

Sorry, I don't know where you can get .228" diameter cast bullets but every once in awhile a Winchester mold for the 45 gr. .22 W.C.F. bullet appears on ebay. Also the discontinued Ideal / Lyman 228151 is the correct bullet.

One thing that could be tried is to acquire a .228 sizing die and some of the standard 45 gr. .224-.225" cast bullets designed for a gas check. Apply the gas check, lube and size the bullets in the .228" die. The larger gas check o.d. just might work in your .228" barrel.

A .06" polyethylene wad (maybe a .03" thick one would work as well) under a .225" cast bullet would likely work. It would keep the powder gases behind the bullet allowing the bullet to center itself in the barrel and shoot accurately. I don't know anyone that makes a wad that small but you could use a sharpened fired .22 Hornet / W.C.F. case to cut some from the polyethyelene material.

If you would be interested in trying this, I could make up 10 poly wads and send them to you with some .225" diameter 45 gr. cast bullets if you send me a PM.

w30wcf

Bullshop
12-01-2005, 02:15 PM
Just a thought here that wont cost too much to try. The Lee Bator boolit is about the same length at 50gn as my NEI #2 at 45gn. It is designed to be heavy for length to be compatible with a 1/16" twist. It is length not weight that determans the needed twist rate. I think the balance point has something to do with it too but thats only my feeling. Anyway for less than $20.00 you can get a Lee/Bator from Mid South and try lapping a couple .000" out. I just happen to have a brand new RCBS .228" sizer available if needed, and also a used Star( I think). Something to hink about. I think a case full of the new Trail Boss powder should be about right.
BIC/BS

StarMetal
12-01-2005, 02:30 PM
Dan,

There is more then just the length of the bullet that determines the twist rate. Read this:

The program adjusts the spin rate required for very low and very high velocities, since the rate of spin generates different centrifugal forces on the bullet as the velocity changes. Once the bullet is free of the barrel, the velocity has little effect on required spin, but since velocity determines the bullet rotational speed imparted by the rifling twist, a higher twist rate would be required to stabilize a bullet fired at very low speed compared to firing the same bullet at a high speed. This is a neglected factor in conventional Greenhill calculations. Obviously, at zero forward velocity there is no rotation imparted, and at very low forward velocity, the same numbers of turns per unit of distance generates a very small number of revolutions per minute, but the usual method of calculating stable twist has no input factor for varying velocity.

Likewise, a bullet with the center of gravity shifted far to the rear will require much higher spin rate to maintain nose-forward attitude compared to a bullet with the CG shifted further forward. Most bullets have their center of gravity somewhat aft of the linear midpoint. If dropped from a height with the nose pointed down, they would land base first. A nose-heavy bullet, on the other hand, would land nose first. In flight it would require less spin to maintain nose-forward attitude. With the CG moved too far forward, the bullet would require little or no spin to strike nose first, but would follow the launch attitude over its trajectory path (that is, the nose would continue to point in the direction and angle at which it left the barrel, so that as the trajectory arc became larger with greater distances, the bullet would tend to fly at an angle to the direction its nose pointed, and would begin to tumble).

Joe

felix
12-01-2005, 02:52 PM
Very good, Joe. Dan, remember why an arrow must have feathers to fly true. The arrow needs the drag at the rear. ... felix

Bullshop
12-01-2005, 02:56 PM
Joe
Yes at times when on the ragged edge of stability I have been able to push it over the top by increasing forward velocity when working with a cartridge that will allow. I also mentioned what I felt about ballance which apparently you have proven for me, thank you. As far as using higher velocity to achieve stability with marginal twist I think in this case its not available from attainable velocity with the 22 wcf. I was pretty much referring to and trying to help with the case at hand, the 22 wcf.
BIC/BS

felix
12-01-2005, 03:13 PM
Increasing speed is marginal at best to overcome a twist which is too slow. When ever things are that close with a known boolit, then it is far better to specify a 1/2 to 1 turn increase for the new barrel. This is done on the BR circuits when shoots are primarily in windy locations. Switch barrel syndrome. NOT for us. ... felix

Bret4207
12-02-2005, 07:48 AM
You could also cast a straight WW boolit and try bumping it in the sizer for a little additional diameter. I think I would slug the bore before I started looking for custom dies.

Wayne Smith
12-02-2005, 08:15 AM
NEI's #7 is a .228-60-GC. It looks to be `.690 long. Those exact CAD plots are really nice.

floodgate
12-02-2005, 01:58 PM
Joe:

"This [velocity] is a neglected factor in conventional Greenhill calculations."

I think the reason velocity is left out of the Greenhill formula is that he was dealing with large-caliber rifle and artillery projectiles (or fairly blunt form) asssumed to be moving at the maximum velocity attainable with Black Powder; i.e. around 1500 fps.

That was a very fine, concise discussion of stability you put together; thanks!

floodgate

Bullshop
12-02-2005, 02:48 PM
NEI's #7 is a .228-60-GC. It looks to be `.690 long. Those exact CAD plots are really nice.
I am pretty shure that # 7 is for the 22 high power and is too long for the slower twist of the 22 wcf.
BIC/BS

glenwood
12-02-2005, 06:54 PM
Glad you brought up 22 Hornet.
I am going to purchase a new barrel for my contender. It is going to be a 22 Hornet. I want to use it for field pistol. Field pistol is shot at 100 yards. I use cast bullets for all my other Contender barrels. The problem is that I am not familiar with anything other than straight walled cartridges. all my guns are revolvers and pistols 38 and 357 cal. I want to cast bullets for this barrel also.
Is it difficult to cast this small?If so, what problems should I be looking for.
I usually use wheel weights as is. Should I use a different alloy or heat treat?
What dies would you recommend for sizing and seating?
What about the X die from RSCB? Is it any good?
What loads would you use for the recommended 2000 fps if I use a 10 inch barrel ?
The bullet that I am thinking about is RSCB 55 grain gas checked bullet -is there something better. I always use the Lee sizer and liquid lub. Think it will work here?
Any advice would be appreciated.

thanks

Glenwood

D.Mack
12-04-2005, 02:06 AM
Glenwood, T/C 22 Hornet-- T/C Made 2 different twists for the hornet. The " older" barrels had a 1 in 16 twist, and would not handle anything over 50 grains. The "new" barrels have a faster twist, and will stabilize heavier bullets. There are still some older barrels out there, so be aware of the difference. Mine is an older one, so I'm limited to lighter lead. No the 22's arn't noticably harder to cast, as any defect takes up about half of the bullet, so they are easy to spot.
By field pistol, do you mean sillouette field pistol ? if so it will do the job just fine with lead, as I only use a 46 grain bullet at about 1600, and have never lost a ram. D.M.

David R
12-04-2005, 07:42 AM
I cast 22s for my 22-250 and 222. The 22-250 shoots a 225646 verry well. Its a nice bore rider. It doesn't even come close to fitting in my 222. SO I got a hold of a Lyman 45 grain Round nose for the 222. That is ONE TEENY boolit. hard for my fat fingers to put the gas check on. I use Lee Liquid Mule snot on these because I have to shoot them as cas dia. (.228) I poured the first bunch for both calibers out of pure linotype. I found the 225646 varry by as much as one grain. That would = 2% of the boolit weight. If I weigh the boolits, my groups are cut in half. I can regularly shoot around an inch at 100 yards with the 22-250. The 222 is a lot les dependable. I have some WWQ boolits I have not tried yet. I hope they shoot as well as the Pure Linotype.

I also just bought the Lyman 55 (58?) grain round nose hoping I can handle it better putting on the gas checks with my fat fingers.

I personally have had NO luck with 22 cal below 2,000 fps. I wuold like a load that copies 22 rf velocities, but have not stumbled into it yet.

Have a blast with those little boolits.

David

7br
12-05-2005, 07:52 AM
Glad you brought up 22 Hornet.
I am going to purchase a new barrel for my contender. It is going to be a 22 Hornet. I want to use it for field pistol. Field pistol is shot at 100 yards. I use cast bullets for all my other Contender barrels. Glenwood

Funny, I did the same thing earlier this year. Haven't had time to burn any powder in it yet. I do have the RCBS 55gr mould and a lyman 225415 if you need some test fodder.

Please keep us posted on progress. I am most interested.

swheeler
12-05-2005, 03:27 PM
wap41:I show published data under "loads for obsolete rifle cartridges" in Complete Reloading Guide.
22 Winchester Centerfire
Max overall length 1.61"
bullet dia .228"
46 GR Lead bullet
black FFg-13.0 gr-1300 fps(factory)
Unique-3.8 gr-1480 fps
unique-3.9gr-1495 fps
unique-4.0 gr-1550 fps
Scooter