358156 or 358429 for deer?

[GrizzLeeBear]

We have a short antlerless season coming up here in MI. Will probably use my .54 flinter for longer shots out to 100 yds, but I am thinking about bringing along my .357 (6" GP-100) for close deer. Being an antlerless hunt I won't be shooting at any 300 # monster bucks, just after a nice 125 - 150 # doe for the freezer. Shots will be kept to around 30 - 40 yds. or less.
I have both bullets, and they both shoot well on top of a healthy amount of Blue Dot or 2400. Which one would be better for deer of this size? Or am I splitting hairs because both will work fine?

[felix]

Splitting hairs. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

I disagree about splitting hairs. If you want to shoot a hard cast bullet then you probably are splitting hairs.

On the other hand if you want improved terminal ballistics through bullet expansion then the 358156 is the better bullet. With it's GC you can drive a soft alloy at real magnum veocities of 1400+ fps out of your 6" GP. Try an alloy of 50/50% WW/lead or of 1/16 tin/lead. I use H110 to achieve 1410 fps with this bullet out of my 6" Security Six. Accuracy is excellent and bullet performance is also excellent. A HP made with the Forster 1/8" HP tool about 2/3s the depth of the nose makes it even perform even better on small deer. Penetration will not be a problem.

While you can achieve 1350 fps with a hard cast 358429 it is still just hardcast and will not expand at all. The GC of the 358156 is what makes the difference as it allows the higher velocity with accuracy with softer alloys.

Larry Gibson

[GrizzLeeBear]

Larry, thats what I have been thinking. I would be able to drive the 358156 faster to get at least some expansion or at least a little bigger wound channel. The 50/50 alloy would help, but I won't be able to cast anymore before this weekends hunt. I only have WW boolits cast right now to use so it looks like either one would work about the same. I have some of the 358429 loaded on top of 12.9 gr. of 2400 that shoot good out of the GP-100, so maybe I'll just use them. Like I said, I anticipate using the .54 ML, but I would like to take one with the pistol if I get a close enough shot.

[MtGun44]

A 35 caliber hole thru the lungs will be quickly fatal. How important will
it be to make it a .45 or 50 caliber hole? Nothing against either design,
just tend to agree that it won't make a lot of difference. Whichever
one you have better accuracy with.

Shot placement will be 10 times more important than the difference
between these bullets, soft or hard.

Bill

[357maximum]

Shoot one with each boolit at approximately the same distance with similar shot placement, then ask them both how they feel about their method/speed of execution.:mrgreen:

Seriously at handgun distances on our sized does...I do not feel it matters...as stated above a .358 hole through the lungs will result in one dead piece of speed beef everytime.



How many bucks do you think will die during this "early doe season" ?? for the record...I am against it...the DNR is going to keep inventing reasons to kill all the deer until the damn wild turkey is the only "LARGE" game left in this state....I think they are %^$#@*( up personally.

[Bass Ackward]

Interesting opinions.

[bobk]

357maximum,
That's the way it went here in PA, plus a license used to allow you to hunt everything but waterfowl. Now it's getting to the point where you need a special license stamp for each big game species. I wish the head of the game commission was an elected official, to gain some oversight. We seem to be governed by bureaucracy.

Bob K

[Larry Gibson]

Interesting opinions indeed! Heck, a .22 caliber hole through both lungs (placed just as well as the .35 hole) will kill a deer. The real point to the question is; which will kill the deer quicker. Obviously to some it does not matter. To others of us it does matter.

Larry Gibson

[felix]

Unfortunately, Larry, folks around here just don't care how an animal dies. If they did, they would shoot to kill, right through the brain, or at least through the neck. I've actually seen a whole deer floating in the river without the head a couple of years ago. Obviously, these folks eat grocery store meat, and just want a head to mount over the mantle. Absolutely sickening to me to see that crap. If they want to outlaw something, let's eliminate the taxidermy profession. That profession is NOT guaranteed by the Constitution, and, as far as I am concerned, good riddens. ... felix

[Bret4207]

Toss up for me. I haVe more kills with the 358156 in solid form and it works well at about 1200fps. The 429 shoots good at 1000 fps from my M19 in WW alloy, but I haven't shot anything with it yet. eIter should work.h

[GrizzLeeBear]

How many bucks do you think will die during this "early doe season" ?? for the record...I am against it...the DNR is going to keep inventing reasons to kill all the deer until the damn wild turkey is the only "LARGE" game left in this state....I think they are %^$#@*( up personally.

I've only lived in MI for 4 1/2 years now, but I have been puzzled by how much hunters hold on to their traditions here (just go over to the Michigan-Sportsman forum and read the heated debates about the baiting ban). Don't get me wrong, the lore and traditions that go along with hunting is a large part of what many (including me) find so enjoyable about it.
Being from Iowa, I have experienced how a program of management by antlerless seasons has vastly improved hunting in areas with high deer populations, like the lower third of MI. My dad, brother and myself took part in many early or special anterless hunts in 2 large state parks and another large area of public (federal) territory around a reservoir as well as hunting private and other public lands in these areas. Yes, during these hunts a certain percentage taken by hunters were button bucks. But, since the deer targeted were antlerless, that percentage remained small, maybe 10 to 20 percent. After several years you did see fewer deer when hunting these areas, but you saw MORE bucks than in previous years, and they were bigger in both body and antlers.
This early season does not add any more antlerless tags to the quotas in each DMA. It just ads more days for hunters to get out after these deer that they want taken to maintain the population. It allows hunters to specifically target antlerless deer instead of the antlerless tag being an afterthought to their hunting during the regular season. The only thing I see wrong with this season is that IMO it is TOO early. Mid-october would be much better, but I can see the problems with runnning a firearms season during the bow hunt. Iowa ran a muzzleloader only hunt in october in some areas that worked well and didn't seem to bother the bow hunters much (at least not that I ever heard of).

[357maximum]

Grizz

You may have misunderstood me or I may have mispoke my own thoughts after a 16hr day of work.

ALL I AM SAYING IS THAT THEY HAVE TAKEN A PRETTY GOOD IDEA ...TOOOOOO DAMNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN FARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.

We did have too many deer in the late 80's...that is a given. In the 80's and early 90's you would see hundreds of deer in a day of hunting and see maybe 20 bucks, and yes alot of them were smallish in the headgear arena. About 93 to 99 all was good. Now we are at the point (in my area anyway) (Clinton/Gratiot/Montcalm/Isabella) where a guy can count himself lucky if he sees a dozen to dozen and a half deer in a hard week of hunting. It has gotten to the point where I feel guilty pulling the trigger more than one time a year regardless of what sex the critter is. The farmers and insurance companies are ruling our herd...that is not right.

We no longer have 3-5 yr old adult does with 2 or 3 fawns..we have 1.5 yr old does having 1 small fawn. All the doe tags/block permits have taken their toll...you ain't gonna convince me otherwise. I have been here my whole life, I have moved 4 times since I crawled out the womb, but I have not gone farther than 15 miles in any given move. All I am saying is they took a good plan too far...that's all.


The reason for the waaaay early season is for the most part to get the guys out and kill that do not want to feel any sort of chill in their spine....I am naming it the get out early and kill a doe before it gets cold pansy hunt...all I got to say bout that.

[GrizzLeeBear]

....I am naming it the get out early and kill a doe before it gets cold pansy hunt....

[smilie=l:

I hear ya there. I much prefer to hunt when there is snow on the ground vs. fighting off bugs. I don't like the idea of shooting deer out of a shack either. Not casting dispersions on anyone that does cause its popular here. But agian, that's another regional thing. You almost never see them in Iowa.

OK, I didn't know there were so few deer over your way. Around Bay City, Saginaw, Midland theres bunches of them. I'm hunting just east of Bay City on the in-laws place and there has been a pretty good increase in deer on their place. I see mature does with 2 fawns a lot.

Speaking of turkey. A flock moved onto the place last fall. They have NEVER had turkeys there. They must like the place cause their still there. This spring we have seen them in groups with several dozen poults! Next spring could be fun!

[357maximum]

Interesting opinions indeed! Heck, a .22 caliber hole through both lungs (placed just as well as the .35 hole) will kill a deer. The real point to the question is; which will kill the deer quicker. Obviously to some it does not matter. To others of us it does matter.

Larry Gibson


Are you saying a .22 cal hole through the lungs will take longer to kill a deer than a .35 hole through the lungs?




I guarantee both cals with perfect/precision placement will leave the deer dead within 110 yards ..... deathrun or not.

OKAY DEVILS ADVOCATE HAT OFF NOW..:roll:

Determining whether a soft 35 and a hard 35 with the same placement is faster would require an olympic quality stopwatch. I understand about the humane issue..I think we all do that frequent here...but I do not think we can quantify the difference in speed o' death between the 358156SOFT and the 358429 HARDER....the difference would amount to a C*^!hair in measurement. Individual differences in the deer themselves will have more of a bearing on this comparison.

Will a deer die faster if he is inhaling or exhaling when the boolit strikes his lungs? very similar question:confused:

[Junior1942]

I vote the 358156 'cause that's what Skeeter would use.

[357maximum]

[smilie=l:

I hear ya there. I much prefer to hunt when there is snow on the ground vs. fighting off bugs. I don't like the idea of shooting deer out of a shack either. Not casting dispersions on anyone that does cause its popular here. But agian, that's another regional thing. You almost never see them in Iowa.

OK, I didn't know there were so few deer over your way. Around Bay City, Saginaw, Midland theres bunches of them. I'm hunting just east of Bay City on the in-laws place and there has been a pretty good increase in deer on their place. I see mature does with 2 fawns a lot.

Speaking of turkey. A flock moved onto the place last fall. They have NEVER had turkeys there. They must like the place cause their still there. This spring we have seen them in groups with several dozen poults! Next spring could be fun!


That is what the DNR goes by..that is the problem. They drive around the burbs and see "ALL THESE DEER".

You have to watch them turkeys...I remember when they first planted them...it was so cool to see a wild turkey.....15yrs later ..you cannot legally kill the lice fast enough in my area. It took me 17 minutes to fill my private land tag this year...he was a great big ol bird almost 12 inch beard 1 7/8th spurs, but BaBore learned me how to cook em right...now if I could just get a turkey block permit to keep them from destroying my garden/ bird feeders I would be in 7th heaven.

[old goat]

...Hang in there Junior! That's as good a reason as any between the two.
Works for me!

...old goat

[rhead]

Good reason Junior. It works fine until you consider that Elmer would use the 358 429. Skeeter for A Elmer for B???? I think I will go have a nervous breakdown.

[Heavy lead]

With all the water we just had here, there's no way I'm going in the woods this weekend. The DNR shouldv'e waited til it got colder. We need a frost, I'm not fighting the bugs, course the mosquitos will have the deer bleed out for you if the boolit doesn't do it. But then again I do need a freezer doe. Either boolit, but I tend to agree with the softer lead 358156 theory proposed earlier, but either way, dead is dead, whatever shoots better.

[357maximum]

I vote the 358156 'cause that's what Skeeter would use.

Proably the smartest vote you will make this year junior:twisted:

[LAcaster]

I have taken a few deer and many pigs using the 358156 GC. I shoot 15.0grs. 2400 in a rem case with a win sp primer. This is in a Ruger three screw with a 6in. bbl cronyed in the 1200 range hits hard and drops the animal if you do your part at 0-50yds havent tried anything any farther because of my ability not the load. I shoot very soft bullets when hunting. Also because my father was a reloader I have several cans of old 2400 these are the old metal cans with the squeeze pop top. Have heard that this is different powder than 2400 of today so work up your load carefully. Good luck and does eat better than bucks anyway, fresh tenderloin wraped in bacon, yum yum