Simple alloy for 1800-2000 30-30 loads

[toallmy]

I'm having a good time casting and shooting my trusty 30-30 with a 50-50 mix + tin with a light charge of unique , but if I try to push it my groups blow out , so I believe that I'm having a alloy failure . I'm trying to keep it simple 'I hate math ' would a straight coww + tin air cooled hold up to 1600- 1800 fps or so without making it complicate ? I have a tendency to over complicate things and I'm trying to avoid it . :roll:

[wmitty]

Why not go to a slower burn rate powder? 2400 or Re 7 will allow velocities to increase without exceeding the strength of your alloy.

[nagantguy]

I get a hair over 1900 FPS with my wheel weight alloy powered coated boolits and H4895.

[Bookworm]

Air cooled CWW + 1%Sn. Checked and TAC lubed. IMR 4895 powder.

I'm running just under 1790 fps from my Mosin Nagant 91/30. No leading, 3.5" 100yds groups, iron sights.

I think a powder slower than Unique would help you.

[toallmy]

I picked up a can of aliant # 7 , and 2400 for a different project I just haven't got to it yet . I just returned from trying out a different cast Boolit and the same powder charge seams to work best 8 gr unique . The first Boolit I have been working on is a noe 311-180 fp gc and a simple ladder test showed 8 gr of unique to hold the group's together best . So today I tried the 311-165 rf plain base same test showed the 8 gr charge again as the charge increases so does the size of my groups . Ill give the different powders a shot before changing my alloy from a 50/50 mix to straight coww .

[Tatume]

H4895 or IMR 4895 works well too.

[toallmy]

I picked my trusty old 30-30 for this project because it's been neglected for over 20 years and it's a prime candidate for cast boolits . It's a old Sears model 54 top eject but the side mount offset scope is not the best rig to get a good look through .

[Rcmaveric]

You could be having a pressure failure of the lead. Change the powder to slower one. Pistol powders are great for light recoil. Red Dot makes my 270 Win feel and sound like 22 LR. Same Bullet and alloy if i want more velocity i need a slower powder. Reloader 7 will put me in 2050 FPS range. I do the same thing with my 30-30. I have Red Dot loads for fun light target work. Working on Alliant 2400 100 yard target loads and then for hunting i use Reloader 7 loads. I have slower powders still left to experiment with but i have to get loads developed for all the guns before i move to different powders to see what they will do. 38K PSI of Red Dot will have a drastically different velocity that equal PSI of a slower powder.

[brewer12345]

I've been happy in that velocity range with ac coww plus a couple percent tin. This is with 150 to 200 grain boolits in a 3006 using 2400 and 4198.

[243winxb]

I used IMR 4895 with a gc 173 gr. In 30 WCF

[Rcmaveric]

I use the Lee 150 grainer with a gas check. Alloy is either range scraps or 50/50 lead to coww. Red dot, 2400, or reloader 7.

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[ABJ]

Yes is the answer to your question, straight cww plus a little tin is a great alloy for gas checked boolits in the 1600/1800 range. I have never had good luck with 50/50 plus 2% tin, depending on the make up of your ww the alloy calc will be about 1.5% antimony and 1.5% tin. I have found on my cww just adding 1% tin does good on gas checked 30 cals. and all plain base pistol boolits that I shoot. I do like the 50/50 plus 2 on 38 special wadcutter with slow target velocities, as well as 32 long. I tried the 50/50 plus for hunting loads in 30-30 and 30-06 and could never get the accuracy I wanted. I am trying 20:1 now for the hunting boolits. I have them cast just not loaded or tested yet.
Hope my experiences will help, sometimes the simple solutions work out the best.
Tony

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It's always good to review this page once in a while.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

about half way down the page is a chart titled, "Approximate "Maximum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)"
included in that chart is:
Wheel weights / clip-on: 25,000 - Non-Magnum handgun loads, Rifles to 1,900 fps

When I am considering specific alloys for a certain load, I like to know the pressure that load is putting on the alloy, rather than the speed. Now I don't have a pressure gauge setup or anything, but Lyman and some others publish pressures of starting loads and max loads for most of their data, which can be used to give you a ballpark idea of the pressure for your load.

[Larry Gibson]

For 1800 - 2000+ fps COWW + 2% tin, AC or WQd will do fine. I also suggest 4895.

[Texas by God]

My limited experience has shown very good accuracy with straight AC COWW and IMR 3031 or H4895 in 30-30 and .358 bolt action rifles. I've recently cast lots of 50/50 COWW/pb boolits but i've not tried them at 100 yds yet.

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[robg]

Ramshot tac is worth a try .your alloy should be OK ,I use the same alloy in my 308 ,is the boolit the right size for the bore?2400 works for most lead boolits .

[toallmy]

I am going to try working up a ladder test with 2400 and some boolits I have cast with my 50/50 mix . Then Ill empty the pot and cast a few out of strait coww a.c. to try after I let them set for a week or so just to see if it helps hold the group's together going a little faster with a harder alloy . You gentlemen may already know the answer , but don't tell me until I try it . I like to do things the hard way over and over until it finally sinks in . All input is appreciated , and thanks for the link JonB I find it by accident but can never find it when I'm looking for it .

[Bazoo]

I run straight wheel weight alloy with the 150 grain lee mould and a decent charge of 748. I run a gas check of course, and never had any leading.

[toallmy]

I'm not having a problem with leading , it's the only way I can get a decent group is if I keep them around 12-1300 fps . I'm hoping with a harder alloy I can go a little faster and keep a decent group .

[Larry Gibson]

I'm not having a problem with leading , it's the only way I can get a decent group is if I keep them around 12-1300 fps . I'm hoping with a harder alloy I can go a little faster and keep a decent group .

Post #14

[Rcmaveric]

Are you seating into the lands? That causes me pressure spikes and limits my velocity.

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[Bird]

I just use plain clip on wheel weights and nothing added. Gas checkd and ben's red. Use H4895 if you want to experiment with low velocities to the highest. IMR 3031 should give you the best load density.
With 160 grn bullet I can drive them to max velocities without leading.
I have used w748, IMR 4064, IMR 4895 and IMR 4198. Not too much difference in group sizes with the fore mentioned powders. Groups deteriorated more with powder increase using the 4198 powder. See my previous postings for more info. I only shoot paper, so bullet hardness or composition does not matter to me.

[Time Killer]

Go to straight ww or heat treat your lead. Toaster over between 440 and 450 for an hour and then dropped in ice water should give you a bhn of 18 to 20. My bhn on the same mix air cooled is 10.5 bhn before powder coating and heat treating. FYI I test my bullets a week after casting or heat treating for the above bhn.

[toallmy]

Well yesterday I gave 2400 a try in my 30-30 with the same 50/50 alloy , wile I wait a week to try the new coww cast boolits . I ran 14.5 -18.5 with the best groups at 14.5 the Lyman starting load witch makes me want to try a little under 14.5 just to see if the groups improve . I suppose my next adventure will be with reloader # 7 with the same 50/50 alloy . This will keep me busy wile I impatiently wait a week to test the same test with strait coww . I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that my trusty old 30-30 just don't like to be rushed .

[lotech]

Straight wheel weight (add a little tin if you think you need it) alloy, or maybe something even slightly softer may work surprisingly well at speeds you are talking about if the bullet fits well. I don't use pistol powders in cartridges as large as the .30-30 and don't use fillers at all, but you might experiment with these if you're so inclined. As for powders, consider a 4198, a 4895, Reloder 7,and 5744. Size the bullet as large as will allow a loaded cartridge to chamber without difficulty; that's often .310". I've never had much luck accuracy-wise with a cast bullet in a rifle that was not at least slightly engraved by the lands.

[gnoahhh]

For .30-30 (and .303 Savage) hunting loads (1800-2000fps) in Savage M1899's and a M54 Winchester I have no need to stray beyond 3031 and the 4895's. Straight COWW's (and a pinch of tin if going into one of a couple recalcitrant molds that require it for good fill out)- call it bhn 11 to 13- gives excellent accuracy with no leading, and is soft enough for good expansion at the wood's distances I employ them at. NRA formula 50/50 lube is all I've ever used too. The trick, as with any cast bullet, is to size to throat diameter as y'all know, to heck with groove diameter. (For that reason Cerrosafe has long since been the most valuable alloy on my work bench.)

For what it's worth, 28 grains 3031 and pretty much any of my 180-190 grain bullets is my favorite load, 190 FN being my all time favorite. If a new to me Savage lever gun, single shot, or bolt gun .30-30 won't respond to that load I know I have some work ahead of me. The same bullets pushed by SR-4759 (god rest its soul) at 14-16 grains give or take are the foundation for my target loads too, again for what it's worth. (Thank god too that I have a lifetime supply of the stuff.)

[toallmy]

I'm trying to get the velocity up wile maintaining good groups , a few things I should have mentioned , the boolits are gas check noe 311-180 , lube is c-red , all the brass are trimmed to length , seated to the crimp grove because I am using the tube magazine , the twist is 1 in 14 , sized at 3.11 I am not experiencing any leading at all with my 50/50 alloy . I'm trying to get the velocity up without losing the groups , this weekend coming the boolits I cast out of coww + tin will be a week old so I'm going to give that a try . Gentlemen I appreciate all the knowledge that you have took the time to share with me .

[Pb&j]

It's always good to review this page once in a while.
http://www.lasc.us/CastBulletNotes.htm

about half way down the page is a chart titled, "Approximate "Maximum" Chamber Pressure For Lead Alloys (PSI)"
included in that chart is:
Wheel weights / clip-on: 25,000 - Non-Magnum handgun loads, Rifles to 1,900 fps

When I am considering specific alloys for a certain load, I like to know the pressure that load is putting on the alloy, rather than the speed. Now I don't have a pressure gauge setup or anything, but Lyman and some others publish pressures of starting loads and max loads for most of their data, which can be used to give you a ballpark idea of the pressure for your load.

Bump.
Jon B, this pressure info is exactly what I am trying to hammer out right now. Poured about 80# of clean ww but the BHN is coming in lower than the heard of 15 hardness which is in direct correlation to the cup pressures some recipe info incorporate. My Lyman book has pressures, depending on powders, ranging from 19k to 28k. WW's are at the low end of possible. I am finding out that ww's are great but the alloy could be way off if not testing for hardness. So, you wise people of fun stuff...Is a bit of tin the magic ingredient to make my alloy good/strong enough for plinking or am I overthinking the pressure issue just for plinking with my 30/30 and 32 special?

[Bird]

If you are using clip on wheel weights, just drop cast bullets into water, they will be plenty hard enough. Don't bother with the tin if the bullets fill out good. Fit a gas check, and lube them. Use starting load data for any of the powders listed for the 30-30, and go for a velocity of around 1800 to 1900 fps with the slower powders. Don't worry about the pressures for now, just stick with the load data.
Its as simple as that.
What bullet and what powders do you have?

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Pb&j
COWW is not 15 BHN, it is about 12.

You mention your "clean ww"...are you separating your clip-on's from your stickys ? If not, the BHN will be less than 12, depending on Sticky content.

with that said, I'll reiterate, Air dropped boolits cast from COWW (that measures around 12 BHN) is plenty hard enough for 30-30 loads that are under 25K.

[jonp]

COWW is not 15 BHN, it is about 12.

I just ran into some that came in at 14.5 bhn. Not sure what else was in them but the melt was straight COWW. I had to cut them with PB to get the BHN down.

[toallmy]

I'm no help to your pressure question but I found playing around with slower powder seamed to help more so than my meager alloy experiment , but I've just begun cast boolits in rifles .

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

COWW is not 15 BHN, it is about 12.

I just ran into some that came in at 14.5 bhn. Not sure what else was in them but the melt was straight COWW. I had to cut them with PB to get the BHN down.

While I have to say that claim isn't impossible, it[14.5] surely seems improbable to me, But I'll take your word on it.

[popper]

Simple alloy for 1800-2000 30-30 loads You won't get there with unique! It'll take 18-20gr 2400 or RL7. Try real rifle powder, 335, 4895, 3031, LeverE, etc. You might get 1700 with the PB, little higher with the GC 180. After that, WD for maybe an extra 200fps. Top loads are 2100+. How does it do with factory ammo? Levergun is harder to get good groups (recoil & rifle harmonics), bags make it a little more difficult.
So does the 1:12 twist.

[Pb&j]

What bullet and what powders do you have?

I haven't purchased any moulds or powder for cast as of yet. Trying to do my homework before the buy. Have only reloaded with leverevolution bullets and powder for these calibers. The calibers I'm casting for have no problems with finished boolit quality so tin is really not necessary. The Lyman book states the pressure cup for a 170gr boolit ranges from 19-26k. Yet my Lee hardness tester states a 12bhn maxes out at 15,536. That is where my question really comes from. Am I confusing one pressure for another? Still somewhat new to casting and appreciate the info.

[jonp]

While I have to say that claim isn't impossible, it[14.5] surely seems improbable to me, But I'll take your word on it.

Used a Lee Tester. I was surprised myself

[popper]

LeverE works fine for cast in 30/30. I use 29gr under 180gr. RD GC WDCOWw.

[Bazoo]

I aint chrono'd them, but 32 grain of w748 and a 31141 gets me up there round factory offerings. Im using straight WW, hornady gc and BAC lube... no problems. Im getting groups around the same as factory ammo at 70 yards. For my 94, thats less than 2".

[Bird]

Pb&j,
Take a look here with regards to minimum and maximum pressures. The minimum pressure for 12bhn is stated at 17000 psi. http://www.lasc.us/castbulletnotes.htm about 1/3 down the page. The lee hardness bhn/psi info is confusing you.

[Pb&j]

Thank you Bird. I forgot about the lasc site, and yes, conflicting information by multiple sources makes me scratch my head. Just looking to be safe and get accuracy. Its a bonus to hear the LeverE powder I have on hand will do just fine as well. Again, great bunch of folk on here.

[longbow]

In line with Larry's suggestion... I was having some issues with large groups with heavier charges of Unique in my .303's. Don't recall exact details but I was working up to max. load of Unique under a 314299 (200 gr.) boolit cast from ACWW. As I moved up in powder charge so groups got worse yet I wasn't at max. Recovered boolits showed "skidding" with grooves in boolits wider than lands whereas the barrel rifling is equal width lands and grooves.

I decided to try oven heat treating and that worked for me with both the 314299 with GC and with a 215 gr. PB boolit from a home made mould.

Water dropping from the mould may work and both are easy to try with no other changes. I was using straight COWW oven heat treated. Not going to claim it is the best "alloy" or that I got bench rest groups, just that it stopped the skidding issue and groups tightened up.

YMMV

Longbow