anealing question

[hershey]

not real sure this is the best forum for the question, but is there a "home" remedy for anealing brass? i am thinking of my toaster oven for this project, but don't know what temps are required, how long etc. i am wanting to do 2x fired 300 rum.

[longbow]

The way I was told to anneal is to stand the cartridges up in a shallow pan of water and use a propane torch to heat the upper portion of the cartridge to dull red then knock them over into the water or let them cool.

Others may have other methods but as far as I understand it you don't want to anneal the case head. Annealing in an oven would anneal the whole cartridge head included.

Longbow

[Blammer]

stand the cases up in water up to the necks, or the part you want to anneal, heat with a torch, then tip over in the water to quench.

[shooter93]

If you cast you can do a fair job of annealing rifle cartridges with molten lead. Dip the case in motor mica or something similar to keep the lead from sticking. Then immerse the case in the molten lead as far as you want to anneal...slightly below the shoulder. When it becomes hot to hold drop it in a bucket of water. Cartridge brass doesn't have to get red hot to anneal.

[hydraulic]

I'll second shooter93's post. I've used this method for years.

[Last Spike]

I'm wondering about another method. Constructive criticism welcomed.

I understand a candle flame burns between 600 to 1400 degrees F and to anneal the brass requires temps between 650 and 700 degrees F. If I hold the mouth/neck area in the candle flame until the base of the brass is too hot to hold with my fingers, won't I get the same effect, but more consistently than doing it with a blow torch?

[docone31]

Actually, a candle flame is hotter than that. It is a question of BTUs. You can melt steel with a kitchen safety match. However, the amount you can melt is rather small.
A propane torch, flat pan of water, and you are good to go. I have never annealed any cases though. I am only now neck sizing only. For years I shot and reloaded some hot loads. I have yet to have a neck split. On range brass, that is another story. I get lots from the range.
Most times I have gotten case head seperation. That shiney line near the rim. I have not had any full seperations though. I have not had to extract any brass manually.
The water keeps the brass from reaching melt, or flow temperature. You are pretty safe there to lean heavily with the torch. When the neck glows, go on to the next one. Even the cases behind the one being annealed will not keep annealing temperature with the water in the pan.
Now, a Prestolite and acetylene annealing and you might get some melt downs even with water. Brass is pretty hard to melt, even with propane. The water acts as a constant heat sink.
I never needed to anneal.

[beemer]

Brass doesn't have to be red hot. Holding the base with your fingers and turning in a torch flame till the neck changes color and dropping in water usually works. You will turn loose before the base gets to hot to hurt anything. However you do it don't get the case head hot enough to anneal it.

beemer

[AZ-Stew]

To emphasize what beemer said, DO NOT ANNEAL THE CASE HEAD! The head must be hard to contain chamber pressures and the neck must be soft to deal with holding and releasing the boolit. If the neck is too hard, the case will split there after a few loadings because the brass is worked back and forth in size during firing and reloading operations.

I've tried the method of standing cases in a shallow pan of water and heating the necks with a torch. It's difficult to get the cases evenly heated before quenching them, the water gets hot quickly and you end up with a bunch of wet cases. If you decide to do your annealing after noticing that several cases in a lot have split, you've already lost some from the lot. For me, a partial lot of cases is pretty much useless. I keep all my brass together during its life. I don't mix lots. A plastic storage box with 49 pistol rounds or 18 rifle rounds is just odd. What do I do with the extra bullets and primers left over from the missing cases? When one or more of my cases splits, I figure the rest are on their last legs, too. Then it's time to go buy new ones. The factory does a much better job of annealing them than I can.

Face it. Brass wears out. When a few cases in the lot split, it's time to replace the lot. Trying to rejuvinate the remaining cases is, in my book, false economy. I've tried it, but I can't recommend it.

Regards,

Stew

[hershey]

thanx for the advice, i am only 2x fired, so i haven't experienced any failures yet, and i am no where near max loads, only at 90% but getting some good results for a $400 factory gun, i have a custom build in the works {different gun) and just want to commit a small quanity of brass to this gun (for the field) but know its good to go. case life is reported to be real short on this chambering, and i am hoping neck sizing and frequent annealing would extend the brass life. thanx again for the advice.

on another note does anyone have a 300rum neck sizing die available?

[montana_charlie]

hershey,
Based on your needs (as much as you have described them) and the advice you have received, I recommend you do not anneal cases.
You don't appear to need, very badly, to do it. And if you followed (much of) the offered advice, you would do it...very badly.

We often treat casting a lead bullet as something of an art...rather than a science. But that is mainly because each mould has a personality which requires the science to be 'adjusted' to make it cast good bullets. However, the basic science (alloy temp vs mould temp) remains unchanged.

Some will even get equally scientific about making bullet lubes.

So, it's rather disconcerting to see such a lack of scientific application when delving into the 'metallurgy' of annealing cartridge brass.
The requirements are few and simple, but that doesn't make any of them unimportant.

Brass hardens when it is worked, and softens when it is heated above a certain temperature. It does not react to 'quenching' so dropping it in water simply makes it cool down faster.

The requirements...
To anneal a case neck, it should be brought quickly to 650 degrees, then cooled. Water cooling or air cooling is your choice.

In case you missed them, those requirements are 'quickly' and '650 degrees'.
A candle can get the brass up to that temperature, but not quickly.
And, at 650 drgrees the brass is a 'blue' color...not 'red'.

The 'quickly' requirement makes most use a propane torch, although the lead dip method is starting to gather some interest. And, to evenly distribute torch heat to the entire neck, some form of 'spinning' method is needed...tough to do if cases are sitting in a pan of water.

To judge temperature, some depend on seeing that color change in the brass. A clean and polished case will show you the 'blue'. But, with a tarnished one, you won't see much color change until the 'red' starts to show...and by that time your case is on the verge of being ruined.
The ambient light in the annealing area will also affect how you see the color change.

So, those who consider annealing to be an important part of their ammo crafting use some method other than color for gauging temperature.
TempStiks can be had in a wide range of temperatures, and TempiLiq can be painted on cold cases where it will indicate that it's design temperature has been reached.

After you have used one of the temperature-indicating materials enough to have developed a good idea of how long a case must be heated, you can switch to counting off the seconds...if your heat application is consistent.
That means your torch must always be at the same setting, and you must position the case in the flame the same way each time.

If you pick up a new case and gently squeeze the mouth, you will see that you can make it slightly oval. That oval goes back to round when you release pressure.
That shows you the brass has some degree of 'hardness' when it is at the proper stage for cartridge use. The ability to 'spring back' to round demonstrates an ability to 'grip a bullet' when one is seated. Without the 'spring back', a bullet would stretch the mouth to bullet diameter, but there would be no 'grip'. The bullet could probably be pulled with fingers, alone.
This would be called 'dead soft' brass.

Dead soft brass is not appropriate for use in cartridges, and is the result of heating to a 'red' color.
CM

[DLCTEX]

Well said CM!

[Larry Gibson]

I've annealed lots of cases over the years for all the usual reasons. I tried most all of the ways but the simplest and most effective is the one I now use. I use a Lee case trimmer that fits into a small light weight drill or electric screw driver. The shell holder is the appropriate one for the case. Cases are cleaned and deprimed. I set a propane torch about waste level with the flame pointing away from me. I have a coffee can with ice water in it just to the left (I'm right handed and hold the drill in the left hand so I change the cases with the right hand) . A case is put in the lee shell holder and with the case turning the neck/shoulder junction is put into the tip of the flame. I watch for the color to run (best to use in a relatively dimly lit room) to just below the shoulder and the neck to just start turning red. It takes between 4-6 seconds depending on thickness and amount of brass. The case is plunged into the ice water to the shell holder. This quickly cools and anneals the case neck. The case is removed and another inserted and annealed. I can do 3-4 cases per minute when I really get going. Works for me.

Larry Gibson

[Bass Ackward]

Yep. Another option for the holder is to chuck up a socket of the correct diameter. Most everyone has a drill and sockets around the house.

[sniper]

thanx for the advice, i am only 2x fired, ...

Hershey:

John Barnsness did a piece on just that in HANDLOADER several years ago. If my memory is correct, A friend of his, who is a metallurgist, developed this method.
Use a standard candle and fingers, hold the brass by the head, no more than 1/3 of the way up the case. Heat it in the candle flame, turning constantly, and when it gets too hot to hold comfortably, drop it into a wet towel.

Cheap, simple, and according to Barnsness, it works just fine.

Why a towel? I dunno. Seems to me a bucket of water would provide quicker uniform quenching, unless you don't want it to be too fast.

2X fired? You won't need to anneal for weeks and weeks!:-D I have never needed to anneal my case mouths, although I have fired them multiples of times.

[carpetman]

hershey--If I understand you correctly you want a small quanity of brass for the field. I guess this means for hunting. If so,the cost of ammunition for a hunting trip is so small that saving a few pennies there doesnt make sense to me. Heck,for hunting I'd buy new brass. I also read into this that you wont be practicing with the gun you hunt with? As for annealing my theory is pretty simple, to begin with main purpose is to extend neck life. I want the neck to split as the first indication of brass getting weak. To me it would be like putting in an oversize fuse. I have had full lenth sized cases that were shot in my gun but were still tight---that to me is a case for using new cases.