Here is another reason muzzzle loaders are so much fun.....

[oldracer]

Well yesterday I took Rosie the 45 caliber under hammer slug gun out to the range to put s few more bullets down the barrel. Last time was about 6 weeks ago and I was hitting the shots inside a 4 inch circle at 200 yards. This was with peep sights and nothing had been changed or adjusted since then!

First 4 shots were NOT even on the backer, let alone on my home made shoot-n-see target in the middle of a plain white backer on a new cardboard holder! So I aimed higher, nothing, lower aim point, nothing. I had already checked my dope book and all was the same: I.E. bullet, lube, wad, powder charge, powder type and height setting on my Lee Shaver tang sight! So I ran the eye piece up 5, nothing, down 5 then another 5 and nothing and finally had another shooter watch the impact for me and he said I was too high. So I aimed at the bottom of the white backer and the bullet showed an impact just above the aim point and right in the middle! So I raised the eye piece 3 and NOTHING showed? Went back to original setting and same impact point. Aimed slightly higher......nothing? So any ideas of what could be happening?
John

[kaiser]

I think you have demonstrated why checking sights at a shorter range (25 to 50 yards) will save chasing a load at long range and wasting ammo. (I've done this a few times, as well!) If you are impacting higher than point of aim, you need to lower the rear sight, not raise it (move it in the direction you want the bullet to go). Good luck.

[RED333]

It is called "Murphy's law" and it can be broken.

[pietro]

.

Raising the FRONT sight height will lower the point-of-impact; Lowering the sight height will raise the POI.

Raising the REAR sight will raise the POI; Lowering the sight will lower the POI.

They work opposite each other because they are at opposite ends of the rifle/barrel.


.

[Hickory]

It is called "Murphy's law" and it can be broken.

Murphy's law is an absolute, that can not be broken.
If anything can go wrong, it WILL go wrong!

[jdfoxinc]

Where did you get your Lee Shaver peep?

[rfd]

the place for all of lee's great tang and peep sights - i use them all exclusively ...

http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/

[oldracer]

I have the idea of moving the front/rear sights figured out pretty well, at least most of the time? As I noted nothing had changed sooooooo I figured the impact would be close to the same as before and for some reason there was not hardly any dust being thrown up from the impact. The guy helping me could not see the impact when the targets were missed which did not help at all. I think I'll back up to 100 yards to see what happens as the berm there is "dustyier" so I will be able to figure out why the weirdness.

I also checked to see if the front or rear sights were loose, both okay and the vertical was still tight on the rear so there should have been no change? I have a front sight level built in so I don't believe there was any canting involved? Maybe it was just Murphy's law?
John

[indian joe]

I have the idea of moving the front/rear sights figured out pretty well, at least most of the time? As I noted nothing had changed sooooooo I figured the impact would be close to the same as before and for some reason there was not hardly any dust being thrown up from the impact. The guy helping me could not see the impact when the targets were missed which did not help at all. I think I'll back up to 100 yards to see what happens as the berm there is "dustyier" so I will be able to figure out why the weirdness.

I also checked to see if the front or rear sights were loose, both okay and the vertical was still tight on the rear so there should have been no change? I have a front sight level built in so I don't believe there was any canting involved? Maybe it was just Murphy's law?
John

fire a couple at 25 yards then a couple at 50 yards then go to 100 yards ----- something changed since your last shoot --- need to slow down and find out what it is/was

[waksupi]

For long range shooting with BPCR, I have found changes in light conditions from morning to afternoon could vary by as much as eleven minutes.

[oldracer]

As I noted the sight setting was the same so it is possible I was not seeing the target correctly and the shots were missing because of that? I plan to back up to 50 yards which is a tick mark above the tang sight zero to see what happens and then go to 100 on the same day after 5 or 10 rounds fired, if they hit. If there is enough time I will then move out to 200 on the same day if possible. I'll let every body know next week.
John

[Mr_Sheesh]

Had a good rifle get bumped hard enough to knock one of its two "swing-away" scope mounts partially away; took 2-3 rounds to figure out what happened, fixed it then 2-3 more to verify zero again. Down side of other family members having access to your gear!

[dverna]

Hope you find a reason....otherwise it will not be a fun gun to own.

[DIRT Farmer]

What Waksupi said
Clouds moving across during a match can change impact 18 inches at 500

[indian joe]

For long range shooting with BPCR, I have found changes in light conditions from morning to afternoon could vary by as much as eleven minutes.

Wow - almost a foot at 100yards ? thats a lot ....not challenging this at all just - what is doing it? - I reckon I have caught me self for four to six inches off at 100yards with open sights - is it worse of a problem with a peep ? does it get worse at long range - haze etc ? I dont shoot past 600yards but 11 minutes - thats six feet!!! I can sight in on the farm and I always do it at the time of day and shooting same direction as the match I am going to attend - always believed it made a difference.

[stubshaft]

It definitely gets worse at longer ranges. Not only do you have POI changes because of shifting light positions, you get haze, wind shift (which can change elevation and/or windage) and MIRAGE.

[waksupi]

Wow - almost a foot at 100yards ? thats a lot ....not challenging this at all just - what is doing it? - I reckon I have caught me self for four to six inches off at 100yards with open sights - is it worse of a problem with a peep ? does it get worse at long range - haze etc ? I dont shoot past 600yards but 11 minutes - thats six feet!!! I can sight in on the farm and I always do it at the time of day and shooting same direction as the match I am going to attend - always believed it made a difference.

Remember I said long range.

[indian joe]

Remember I said long range.

You might laugh but 600 is long range for this ole rabbit trapper :coffee:

And I guess I am conscious of least half of your 11 minutes at shortrange (100yards)
Never thought a headwind would make much diference either till I shot into one - never thought being the operative words there - I drove trucks enough that one shoulda been a no brainer!

[Buzzard II]

Check that all screws are tight. Humidity also has an effect on POA.

[oldracer]

After the past few posts about weather and such I did some thinking and as far as I can remember the temperatures were close to the same, wind was about the same, 5 knots from the left and since we are in the desert sort of landscape the humidity was about the same. The front globe sight was the same and had not moved at all and the screws on the tang sight were tight and the tang sight had not bent or moved. When I keep the rifle in the hard case the tang is folded onto the top of the Allen action and barrel and when folded it lays right in the center of the action. I plan to go to the range tomorrow to see what happens starting at 50 yards again and then outwards. I'll let everyone know what I find.
John

[centershot]

Bright sun shining on the target "washes out" the black in the direction the sun is shining from. The old High Power shooters used to say "Light's up, sights up!' meaning that as the sun traveled east to west (North-facing range), the edge of the bull would wash out from 2 to 12 to 10 o'clock correspondingly. The zero you put on your gun first thing in the morning would be too low by noon because you could not see the washed out top of the bull. You would hold lower and hit lower if you didn't correct for the changing light conditions. If a cloud suddenly covered the sun, the glare on the target was eliminated, you could see it as it actually was, and you would then be shooting high! This also applies to windage in matches that span several hours. Add to that the effects of mirage that can displaces the target image in the direction that the mirage is running and can disappear if the sun is covered suddenly, and it's a wonder that we can hit the target at all!!! Voodo, it's all voodoo!

[oldracer]

Well it could be the light hitting the target but our range has the target stands sitting so the targets face is South. Sun is on it all the time, my backer is plain white paper and I use a 8.5x11 inch home made shoot n see target painter flat black with a 4 inch flat white circle in the middle and we very seldom have any clouds.

So yesterday I did the shooting at 100 yards. First shot, no hit anywhere? Shots 2 and 3 were 2 inches right and left of the white center. Shot 4 was done after a cease fire and was 1 foot high, next two were just to the left of 10 oclock at the edge of the white center. Next shot about 3 inches lower. Another cease fire then 5 more shots just to the left of the white center. I decided the barrel needed a good looking at with my bore scope so I stopped.

Wiped the bore with Ballistol patches and dried before leaving the range and then used my 3 part cleaner flushing the barrel well and wiping with a bit of RemOil. The bore scope showed some copper like spots all along the barrel both in the grooves and on the lands which must have been rust stops? So I used my Chore Boy mesh wrapped around the end of the cleaning rod and a liberal amount of Kroil to flush the internals and next inspection showed the barrel was nice and clear. There were some rough spots on the lands so I used a couple unsized bullets that were drilled and tapped and put on the end of the cleaning rod and a liberal amount of Clover valve lapping compound and then about 15 minutes of slow lapping followed by a liberal flush with 3 part cleaner and application of some RemOil and the bore scope showed no rough spots and all was smooth and shiny. I remembered the barrel had been sitting for quite a few years before I bought it and the previous owner had kept it oiled and all but I do not remember a bore scope inspection. I did wipe the barrel well when the rifle barrel and assembled Allen lock came from Petatonica River so I am still wondering why it shot so well initially and then fell apart after sitting? I plan to try again on next Tuesday or so and use 100 yards again to see what happens. I'll keep everyone posted.
John