Defensive gun use

[MaryB]

I was sitting inside yesterday when I heard my neighbor and her ex get into a screaming match, she has a restraining order against him. He had pushed her onto my front yard so I decided enough of this, sheriff was 30 minutes out. I stepped out with my carry pistol in my pocket holster and invited him to leave or I would take action.

He left. Sheriff caught up with him on the highway and issued a ticket for violating the restraining order so now he is in deep trouble. Sheriff stopped by later and thanked me for ending it before my neighbor got hurt by him.

[1bluehorse]

What kind of action were you willing to take at that point in time? Bad situation to be in and I'm not sure to what lengths I would go and what would be "acceptable" if in that position. What would/could be the ramifications?

[JBinMN]

Glad to hear it turned out better than it could have been.

Good on ya for helping out the neighbor & good to hear you are safe as well. Be prepared for a return of the guy if he is as much of a *** as it seems. I would hope he would not be so stupid , but "they" are certainly out there and there seems to be a lot of them.

Nice to hear a good outcome by someone using their Const. /Civil rights as well with apparently no harm done.
;)

[MaryB]

He was physically assaulting her on my property. I have full legal right at that point to shoot if needed to stop a threat to her life. But 99.99% of the time that is not needed. Scum will tuck tail and run!


What kind of action were you willing to take at that point in time? Bad situation to be in and I'm not sure to what lengths I would go and what would be "acceptable" if in that position. What would/could be the ramifications?

[MaryB]

Glad to hear it turned out better than it could have been.

Good on ya for helping out the neighbor & good to hear you are safe as well. Be prepared for a return of the guy if he is as much of a *** as it seems. I would hope he would not be so stupid , but "they" are certainly out there and there seems to be a lot of them.

Nice to hear a good outcome by someone using their Const. /Civil rights as well with apparently no harm done.
;)


Sounds like he got drunk and was headed back to town, sheriff had a deputy laying in wait for him. He is now in a cell waiting for the judge on Monday. Yes this guy is a real piece of work... I have never liked him and have told him to get off my property before... Sheriff was aware I was taking a holstered gun out to defuse the situation because of how far out her was still. Typical response time here is 30-45 minutes depending on where any of the deputies/sheriff are the county. Sheriff has told us to take care of the problem ourselves and he will back us up if it is legal.

[RU shooter]

Good for you for doing the right thing ! I agree if I saw my neighbor being assulted be it in my yard or theirs I would also step in and try stop the situation . There's a line though between assault and threat of severe bodily harm or death that would justify the use of deadly force . Unfortunately if you have to draw down and shoot that is going to be hashed out in court . But if you know in your soul that you prevented that person from being seriously hurt or killed in the assault you did the right thing .

[knifemaker]

Be very careful getting involved in a case that involves domestic violence. I know a guy who did the same as you when a large biker type started beating on his girlfriend. He told the biker to stop and the biker, all 250 pounds of him started advancing on the guy and stated he was going to kick his butt and put him in the hospital.
The concerned citizen has a CCW and pulled his pistol and held it down by his leg and told the biker that he better stop his advancement. Biker backed off and left with his girlfriend. Biker and girlfriend called the cops and denied there was any reason for the citizen to pull his gun, verbal argument only, and both stated he aimed it at the biker while threating to shoot him. The female did a complete flip flop on the citizen even after he prevented her from being beaten by her biker boyfriend.
Citizen was arrested after D.A. issued a warrant for his arrest for brandishing a deadly weapon and lost his CCW permit and had to pled to a reduced misdemeanor because he made too much income to get a public defender and not enough to pay 8-10 thousand dollars to hire a good lawyer to defend him.
Maybe if the citizen with the CCW had been smart enough to call the cops to report the incident, the D.A. may have given his story more credit and not have issued an arrest warrant. Who really knows which way it would have went if he had made the call.

[Catshooter]

Good for you Mary.

Can bad things happen if you try to help someone? Sure. Life is dangerous and impossible to make 'safe'. 'Safe' is like 'fair', only exists in childrens games. No such thing for adults.


Cat

[smokeywolf]

Be very careful getting involved in a case that involves domestic violence.
Have to emphasize what knifemaker says here. With the possible exception of armed robberies or maybe warrant service, domestic disturbance calls are the most dangerous that law enforcement responds to. They can escalate to deadly force in seconds.

[Three44s]

Mary,

Glad it turned out well thus far. Watch your six as the slime ball could have it in for you when the revolving doors of justice turn him loose once more.

Three44s

[MaryB]

Be very careful getting involved in a case that involves domestic violence. I know a guy who did the same as you when a large biker type started beating on his girlfriend. He told the biker to stop and the biker, all 250 pounds of him started advancing on the guy and stated he was going to kick his butt and put him in the hospital.
The concerned citizen has a CCW and pulled his pistol and held it down by his leg and told the biker that he better stop his advancement. Biker backed off and left with his girlfriend. Biker and girlfriend called the cops and denied there was any reason for the citizen to pull his gun, verbal argument only, and both stated he aimed it at the biker while threating to shoot him. The female did a complete flip flop on the citizen even after he prevented her from being beaten by her biker boyfriend.
Citizen was arrested after D.A. issued a warrant for his arrest for brandishing a deadly weapon and lost his CCW permit and had to pled to a reduced misdemeanor because he made too much income to get a public defender and not enough to pay 8-10 thousand dollars to hire a good lawyer to defend him.
Maybe if the citizen with the CCW had been smart enough to call the cops to report the incident, the D.A. may have given his story more credit and not have issued an arrest warrant. Who really knows which way it would have went if he had made the call.


911 center was listening to me the entire time, heard the fighting as I went out my front door. I called, slipped the phone in its holster after informing them of the problem and she stayed on the line. Nice evidence against the little 150 pound punk she used to be married to. Think before you move!

[MaryB]

Mary,

Glad it turned out well thus far. Watch your six as the slime ball could have it in for you when the revolving doors of justice turn him loose once more.

Three44s


He knows better. Has no guns, and his restraining order says he cannot be within 600 feet of his ex and that covers all of my property also. So he shows up and violates it again and he is facing a felony and 5+ years in a cell. Guy is no threat to me, he knows if he tries something I will shoot him. I made that very clear that he threatens anyone on my property again it will not go well.

[Petrol & Powder]

First and foremost, I think you did everything correct. You witnessed the event, called 911, stayed on the recorded line, armed yourself and took appropriate steps.
However, a warning : Be careful about putting yourself in a situation where deadly force is your only option.

When you come to the aid of another, you "step into their shoes" in the legal sense. You may defend another person but the standards of acceptable force do not change. If there is an imminent threat of death or serious injury you may use deadly force to defend yourself or another. If that imminent threat doesn't exist, deadly force is not an option.
If that guy slaps his ex-girlfriend/wife that's not going to rise to the level of an imminent threat of death or serious injury. At that point you can come to her defense but you can only use the appropriate level of force to do so.
I think you acted appropriately and I'm not saying that you intended to use deadly force if it wasn't necessary. I am saying you should be careful when you enter into that situation. Don't get sucked into other people's drama.

Also be aware that some women can be very manipulative and thrive on the "drama". Despite the existence of a restraining order, they will invite the guy over "to talk" and maybe "resolve their issues". The idiot male will fail to see he is being set up and he will then arrive and violate the restraining order. When idiot boy arrives the female will engage in an argument, call the police and claim the male violated the restraining order (and in reality, he did violate the order). I only mention this because when you come to the aid of the female in distress, the distress may be of her own creation.

Mary B, in the case at hand you will likely be a witness when the guy is put on trial for violating the restraining order. That's a good thing because you are an independent witness to the event. If you have recorded video, save that as well. I would also put idiot boy on notice that he is not welcome on your property. The Sheriff can help you with that and the trial is a good time to get him served with that notice.
If he returns after receiving that notice, you can charge him with trespassing.
Like a restraining order, that piece of paper does nothing to stop him from actually showing up but it does make subsequent prosecution for trespassing a little easier.

[FISH4BUGS]

In all of my handgun training, one thing that was drilled into my head was NEVER get involved in a domestic situation whatsoever unless the perp is actually trying to kill the person with a club or knife or weapon of some sort.
Even if you are armed, walk away.
The down side is too great.
Sucks to be her.
Sorry.

[Battis]

You did everything correctly. The holstered gun you had was not an issue. You never drew it or threatened him with it in any way, even if he saw it. It was there, like a seat belt, or a life jacket...in case.
I wish people that are thinking about carrying a gun, or do carry now, would read your story and learn from it.

[Lloyd Smale]

When we teach ccw class we usually stress to only use a gun if you or your family is being attacked. Now that said I would have done the same thing you did in those circumstances and no judge (other then maybe in nyc or ca is going to find you guilty if you would have shot him to protect that women. The fact that it happened on your property would be the clincher but even if you did it on her property unless she decided you shouldn't have done it your pretty safe.

[10-x]

My Grandfather was a Detroit cop in 1914, he liked job until got called to a domestic. He and partener wrestled the husband down, cuffed him, wife went wild and jumped on both of them. Nothing changes. Each state' s law( s) regarding use of deadly force are very different, know your states laws. Pepper spray?unless doped up?
You did right regardless.

[dverna]

Good thread

It is important that we think scenarios through ahead of an event. It is not the obvious events that require this but the boarderline ones, maybe like the one Mary faced, that we need to focus on. And domestic violence can be a very tough one to consider.

For me, screaming and yelling are not cause to get involved....even if I know one party has a restraining order. Shoving and pushing is also a non-starter. Not saying I am right...just the way I look at it.

One thing for sure, once you put a weapon in your hands, you need to have already made the decision you are OK with killing someone. Not everyone is wired that way...especially if they do not know the victim very well or at all.

[Boaz]

Sounds like you did well in deescalating to situation Mary . Thank you for helping your neighbor out .

[jimlj]

Seconds count when the Law is minutes away. Good job Mary.

[rl69]

well done

[DCP]

Good thread

It is important that we think scenarios through ahead of an event. It is not the obvious events that require this but the boarderline ones, maybe like the one Mary faced, that we need to focus on. And domestic violence can be a very tough one to consider.

For me, screaming and yelling are not cause to get involved....even if I know one party has a restraining order. Shoving and pushing is also a non-starter. Not saying I am right...just the way I look at it.

One thing for sure, once you put a weapon in your hands, you need to have already made the decision you are OK with killing someone. Not everyone is wired that way...especially if they do not know the victim very well or at all.

:goodpost:

[ShooterAZ]

Here in Arizona, it is a right to carry state. Concealed carry is a right with no permit required, and OPEN carry is perfectly legal for anyone legally allowed to own a gun. If I have a gun on my hip, and tell the neighbor to stop pushing his wife around it is NOT illegal and not considered to be threatening him. The mere presence of a firearm is a proven crime deterrent. Good for you Mary, for standing up for your neighbor and playing your cards right.

[MaryB]

My neighbor in no way wanted him there. And he was physically assaulting her by pushing and shoving hard enough she went down once. She went with the dude for a month then dumped him and wants nothing to do with his sorry butt!

Sheriff took a statement form me, said he doubted I would have to testify since my neighbor swore out a statement too saying she wanted zero to do with him. She is not one for a lot of drama... has a 12 year old daughter and doesn't need the garbage in her life. Her first husband is still on a friends basis with her... no restraining order needed, he was over today doing some house repair for her... they divorced over some medical thing...

[crowbuster]

Good on you mary. We have far to many that stand by and watch or record it and do nothing. good on you

[Idaho45guy]

DVs are the worst.

Was driving out of Yakima, WA with my wife and kids in the car when I see a Toyota Tacoma pulled over on the side of the road and a big Mexican dude pushing a little Mexican gal around the outside of the truck.

Called 911 and reported it. They seemed none too concerned...

It WAS Yakima, which is infamous for it's high number of illegal aliens and the typical crimes involved with that group of folks.

[Shawlerbrook]

Sounds like Mary responded perfectly. It is a hard decision but I always remember the old saying .....”Evil triumphs when good men(and women) do nothing!” Be smart, diligent and watch you six.

[Murphy]

Domestic violence,

Man o' man, that's never an easy one and it's always a gamble getting caught up in one. Risky to both your health and freedom if not handled with extreme caution.

Over the past 10 years or so there seems to be a major escalation of domestic violence. Drugs being the #1 factor in my opinion. It's so bad in my area half the time it's the woman that started the assault. Of course a man has the option of walking away, but they're usually on the same mental level as the woman by that point.

Another thing I have noticed, is much like dealing in real estate, location, location, location. What may be 'okay' in some areas of the country, isn't in others regardless of what was taking place when you entered into the situation. I hope to never find myself involved in the situation of being torn between getting involved or not again when it comes to domestic assaults.

Restraining orders are a good thing when used properly. Once issued, follow them to the letter of the law, period. I've known of a few going to their grave who failed to follow one and their intended victim had zero legal issues once the smoke cleared.

Law enforcement officers, I feel for to no end who get called to a domestic disturbance. One I knew personally had a unique way of deescalating a domestic violence call. If the couple wasn't actually fighting when he arrived, he'd take the female to the side and tell her "Look, before I go talk to him. You do realize I may have to kill that SOB right?". Amazing how quickly two people can decide to play nice when he'd do that.

All in all, we're all different. How one deals with such a situation vs another is a debate there is no end to. Let your conscience be your guide and may God be on your side when you're face to face with it.

Murphy

[Mr_Sheesh]

MaryB, sounds just right. It's bad when people cannot help their neighbor, for fear of being engulfed in a "situation", sounds like your neighbor dated a bad piece of work & sanely wants them gone, & you did your part right.

Murphy, that's a good strategy really, tho the down side is that we humans can still love someone who is toxic as all get out for us, but not love their behavior AT ALL. People get conflicted and that can mess them up, if the officer said that in the wrong situation she could end up abused or worse. I know of a horrid situation locally, that gal's ex needs to be behind bars, she still cares tho; If the guy is a really bad piece of work, it's bad for her to have that caring for him reinforced in any way. It'd be near impossible to know what to do as a LEO, that's one tough job!