Pistol Lee Factory Crimp vs. .359" groove diameter

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

I poured some cerrosafe in my Rossi lever actions and measured the groove diameter just ahead of the throat. They are both about 0.359".

I use the Lee die set which comes with the pistol factory crimp die (PFCD) which I find nice in that I don't have to balance the seating and crimping to happen just-so. However, the factory crimp die sizes the case with the bullet in it. I haven't pulled a bullet afterwards to measure it, but measuring the inside of the casemouth with the caliper (not the best way I know) it measure .357-.358.

So here's my dilemma, if I use the PFCD it will size the boolits to about one or two thousandths below groove diameter. If I use some other way to crimp, I don't think I'll be able to use the ammo in my Ruger Blackhawk. I think the Ruger BH has tighter chambers than the Rossi's.

My Lee 358-125-RF mold casts 'em at about 0.360-0.361. I could try to get a boolit sizing die to get them to exactly 0.359 and see if they would work in my Ruger BH.

I could see if someone could ream the Ruger chambers to match the Rossi's. Bad idea?

I could try reaming the PFCD so that it would only size the case just enough to fit the Ruger. I might already be at that point - I don't know.

I could get a Lee Collet-CD or a Redding Profile either would crimp without that final sizing step - although I don't know if this would really help with the Ruger.

What I really want to avoid is having to keep separate .357 ammo, one for lever actions, the other for my revolver.

If necessary I can get chamber measurements from the Blackhawk, I just know that when I would reload with my 310-tool the cases formed in my Rossis wouldn't fit in the revolver because the 310 sizing die only partially sized them. I eventually got a Lee hand press that can do full-length sizing.

[Kenstone]

"What really want to avoid is having to keep separate .357 ammo, one for lever actions, the other for my revolver."
I don't see how you can avoid that in the situation you have described.

Get another standard seat/crimp die so you can seat with one and crimp with the other to avoid using the FCD that swages the bullet smaller.
I've been where you are with different 9mm guns, ended up using 2 different/separate loads to get the best accuracy out of both :cry:
:mrgreen:

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

"I don't see how you can avoid that in the situation you have described."

Nuts. I was afraid this might be the answer.

[earlmck]

Uuuh -- why not try loading the ammo with current set-up and see how it shoots in both? That is the true test and much better than "expert" opinions anyway. My Rossi won't feed the ammo which my revolver likes the very best, but the Ruger revolver shoots the Rossi-loaded stuff reasonably well. (They both handle .359 boolits, though)

[sigep1764]

Its not. Dougguy here on the forum reams barrels and cylinders. Shouldn't be a problem to have the cylinder on your Blackhawk opened up to accept the same ammo the Rossi likes.

[mdi]

I'm not a fan of Lee's FCD for handguns. Bottom line and not wanting to offend anyone, just learn to correctly adjust your dies, measure your components, and toss the FCD for handguns..
If I use some other way to crimp, I don't think I'll be able to use the ammo in my Ruger Blackhawk. I think the Ruger BH has tighter chambers than the Rossi's. Have you tried? Did you measure anything?

I would hazard to guess I've reloaded revolver ammo to the tune of an average of 100 per month since 1988 (I started in '69). In 1995 I started reloading semi-auto to roughly 200 per month. The only time I had any chambering, leading, seating problems was when, out of curiosity, I used a Lee FCD for handguns. I have 5, 44 Magnums and one is a Rossi with an oversize barrel. I use the same dies, the same bullets (although .002" difference in size) same charges (although some guns have their favorites) for all 5, no chambering problems unless I ran them through an FCD. I used a 45 ACP FCD once, didn't like the "crimp" and resizing. Purchased and used an FCD for 44 Mag. and my so-far-so-good ammo leaded the barrels badly. It now resides in a landfill somewhere in So. Oregon.

I'm not an "old school" caveman and I do use modern equipment and tools, but I can't help think about the billions upon billions of rounds successfully reloaded, for well over 100 years, before Lee came out with their FCD for handguns...

I just last week reloaded about 200 9mm and 150-160 45 ACP for my "just in case" stash and every one passed the plunk test quite easily and don't lead my guns...

[jmort]

Get your cylinders uniformed by Doug
This makes sense, what you said


"I could get a Lee Collet-CD or a Redding Profile either would crimp without that final sizing step - although I don't know if this would really help with the Ruger."

I have both for my revolvers. As for my semi-autos, I use the FCD without exception. I need absolute reliability and the FCD for pistols provides uniform loads. There was or is a long-standing poll on the forum and 2/3 use the pistol FCD. Twists a lot of panties so the arguments ensue.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

OK. If I load an un-sized boolit into a .357 case, the case will not fit into the Blackhawk cylinders. It hangs up at the base of the boolit. The boolit I tested was .361". The outside diameter of the case at the base of the boolit measured .381"

I ran another boolit through the Lee .358 sizer and it measured .359". Loaded that one into a case and it just fit into the cylinder. I had to push it in with very light pressure, so it did not plunk in. So I might be good to go if I size them.

Except now I've read one of the stickies that says you don't need to worry about groove diameter as much as matching throat diameter. But they don't really talk about how to apply that to lever actions that have a tapered cone as a throat. You'd need a beastly oversized boolit to match the throat diameter of a .357/.38spl chamber.

[mdi]

What I did for my Puma; after I slugged the barrel I measured a fired case. I sized a bullet to what should work in the .432"+ barrel. I seated the bullet into a sized case. The dummy with the .433"+ bullet was smaller then the fired case, so it fed and later reloads fed and fired fine. Basically you can go as big a bullet as will allow the reload to chamber. A chamber is larger than a throat in a rifle, and the throat tapers down into the rifling (unless there is something drastically wrong)...

Lead bullets are not limited to .001" or .002" larger diameter than the groove diameter and I've read, but not done so myself, that some have gone .006" over groove diameter with no ill effects (my largest cast bullet was .0035" over groove diameter maybe because that was the largest sizing die I had...).

[fatelk]

What I do is sort my brass. For lead bullets in .38 special and 9mm I only use US commercial brass. Someone gave me some USGI .38 brass a while back and it was completely useless to me. It was so dang thick that even with .358 bullets most of them wouldn’t chamber. I think I scrapped them all.

[Outpost75]

The Lee factory crimp profiles loaded rounds so that they don't exceed SAAMI max. cartridge dimensions. Some cases are heavier, being intended to provide adequate bullet pull with jacketed bullets of smaller diameter, whereas .38 wadcutter and new Starline .38 Special brass average about 0.0095" and do not exceed 0.010" mouth wall thickness, for use with lead bullets. Buy yourself a tubing micrometer and measure your mixed headstamp brass. Segregate those 0.010" or less for lead bullets and sell the thick ones to the scrap man. Or just start over and buy Starline brass.

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Here's some more measurements. I'm thinking I may be OK if I just size the boolits and crimp with something other than the PFCD.

Revolver cylinder throats:
0.3587
0.3591
0.3590
0.3591
0.3590
0.3589
Measured by forcing a different slug through each cylinder throat and measuring with a micrometer.

Slugged revolver barrel and measure with micrometer:
Groove diameter = 0.3577"

Slugged M92 barrel and measured with micrometer:
groove diameter = 0.3567"

[Outpost75]

Ignore barrel bore and groove diameter. Value for mental masturbation only. Fit bullets to revolver cylinder throats or as large as chambers easily and extracts unfired rounds in rifle with safe bullet release clearance. You will get bullets a bit over .358" by sizing in nominal .358 die due to tolerance variables and cold working characteristics of various alloys. Size .358 and move on. You are done.