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KCSO
11-25-2005, 06:22 PM
Since I now have over 1/2 my troops carrying these things I finally broke down and bought one, I now have a Glock 19. I am and always will be a 1911 man and till now have had no interest in Gaston's plastic wonder. Now I need to practice with this thing until I am up to snuff. The last Glock I used to qual with hated cast bullets. Will the Glock digest some cast if I make it hard? Lino? 1/2 and 1/2 ? Or should I just forget it and call Black Hills?

Willbird
11-25-2005, 08:11 PM
If I was going to shoot it a LOT, and if it was a self defense gun I would. I would get a bbl for it with conventional rifling in it. If you want to move it along at a later date you can put the orig bbl back in, and sell the bbl with real rifling in it.

I am just puking back what I have read about Glacks, the only one I would like to have is the 10mm one.

Bill

9.3X62AL
11-25-2005, 10:06 PM
KCSO--

A couple of our armorers who have been to the Glock schools STRONGLY recommend aftermaraket barrels for ANY reloaded ammunition, not just cast boolits. The Glocks feature some pretty wide chamber radii, and 40 S&W's have a LARGE area of unsupported chamber.

My wife has been after me to get one of these critters for her, so its first stop will be Bar-Sto Barrels (about an hour from my house, and along the route to quail and chukar country) so I can feed the thing at reasonable cost.

KCSO
11-26-2005, 10:55 AM
Gee when I went to armourers school they said the Glock was PERFECTION and that all reloaded ammo was bad. It sure bites to have to put a new barrel in a new gun, but I suspected this when I bought the gun. Guess I get to call Brownell's Monday.

Thanks

9.3X62AL
11-26-2005, 01:51 PM
Yeah, Glocks are PERFECTION--as long as you fire only factory ammo in them. Most gunmakers sing the same mantra--"ONLY FACTORY LOADS"--but with the dishwasher-safe Austrian imports, it might be justified. Just a friggin' shame that fear of lawsuits prevents gunmakers from detailing the causes of catastrophic failures, so that end users could be better informed and make better choices. Mostly, the mantra just pisses me off--but I think that was discernable anyway.

grumble
11-26-2005, 02:17 PM
Deputy Al - "...Just a friggin' shame that fear of lawsuits prevents gunmakers from detailing the causes of catastrophic failures, so that end users could be better informed and make better choices..."

I wonder why that is? Auto makers are required to make failure analyses available to the public, and also their service bulletins/recall notices. Now that the firearms industry has their legislated liability relief for misuse of their products, it would seem reasonable that they should provide the shootiing public some of the benefit of their analysis and research. Maybe we should write the NRA?

versifier
11-26-2005, 09:02 PM
I reload for my Glock 23, only jacketed bullets, and only low pressure loads. Maybe Santa will bring me an aftermarket barrel this Xmas so I can start shooting cast in it. Ten shots of cast in polygonal rifling and the accuracy goes all to hell. Brush brush, clean clean. Damned accurate the way it is, though. A shame, but that's life.

StarMetal
11-26-2005, 09:14 PM
Well you fellows heard this before. I shoot the dickens out of my Glock 21, 45acp of course. Maybe it has alot to with caliber. I have two highly tuned 1911 that shoot really good to say the least. Then I bought this Glock 21 and right out of the box the damn thing near beats my two 1911's!!!!! Yeah with cast bullets....and the more you shoot the accuracy does not go down hill and the barrel does not lead up. They talked alot about this over on a Glock forum. The guys got into a pretty heated argument over whether the manual that comes with Glocks ACTUALLY says not to shoot reload or the warranty is void. I guess I'll have to dig mine out and read it. Some of the guys says that it doesn't, I don't know. They did agree the culprit seems to be the 40 S&W caliber in the Glock though. I've had and have other guns with polygonal rifling. One I still have and shoot alot of cast out of is the HK USC 45 acp carbine. Zero problems or leading. I'm not shooting competition or running a truck load of ammo through my Glock montly so I'm sure as hell not going to buy an aftermarket barrel for it. I can't see how that rifling, being actually smoother then regular rifling and by that I mean it really doesn't have as many, how would I say this, corners in the rifling to actaully catch and trap lead...so how would it get a build up?....more so over convention rifling?

Joe

BruceB
11-26-2005, 09:32 PM
Boy, I'll tell y'all....

At the risk of really hurting some folks' feelings, and in the full awareness of the excellent performance record and wide service of the Glock pistols of all calibers, this is one ol' fart who HAS to say:

"LIFE IS TOO SHORT (for ME) TO SHOOT BUTT-UGLY GUNS!"

...and brothers, the Glock sure fits that description to my prejudiced eyes.

(BruceB is now high-tailing it for the deep dark timber, and I hope I make it to cover afore the shootin' starts!)

StarMetal
11-26-2005, 09:39 PM
Bruce

Not to worry. Before I bought a Glock I thought what a piece of ugly plastic crap. Then one day at a gun show I picked one up......hmmmmmm hey not bad, light, felt good in my hand....aaahh I don't like 9mm's so put it down. Then they came out with the 45. I got one right away and I'm not one bit sorry. I guess some criminal could go ahead and laugh his ass off at my ugly Glock while I fill him full of lead and believe me a 13 shot 45 acp certainly would do that.

They really aren't bad pistols and it seems all the manufacturers have their own plastic versions out so Glock must have come up with something good. I still love the 1911 best though.

Joe

johniv
11-26-2005, 09:40 PM
Yup , what Starmetal said... I shoot #452488's and 452374's in my H&K USP and get no leading. Also it works with light loads (3.7 gr BE) or normal (6.5 Unique) feeds and ejects both. Just remember , if ya blow a case, yer prolly gonna lose the frame(splits when gas goes into the mag well), so what Dep Al said about the unsupported case might be the deciding factor. Just my .02 worth.
John

StarMetal
11-26-2005, 09:50 PM
The model 21 Glock doesn't have any more exposed case web then any 1911 on the market, so you're wrong Johniv. So tell me why it's going to blow a case and put gas in the magazine well? And dear sir I said I shoot a HK USC 45acp carbine, which apparently you aren't familiar with. See those letters "USC" not USP. USP is their pistol. The USC carbine is an United States legal copy of HK's submachinegun, that is it has a 16 inch barrel and is semi auto AND it even supports the case more then a 1911.

Here's what it looks like:
http://www.hunt101.com/watermark.php?file=500/7385HK-med.jpg

So old Joe isn't going to blow up any of his 45acps.

Joe

johniv
11-26-2005, 10:03 PM
Joe , yup I know the rifle(USC>> universal selfloading carbine) I just agreed with you about not leading in polygonal bbls. That being said, lots can happen thru human error. Saw a UMP (smg) damaged by a .40 cal rd loaded into the mag then fed into the bbl(push feed) the rd went half way down the bore and the operator got a "click" did an immediat action (fed a 45 in behind it and lost the reciever. Did not get hurt but the smg suffered. I have fired factory GI ammo that lost the primers or swelled the unsupported area in a USP that fires +P ammo quite well. I can only think that the brass was substandard. So I was only agreeing with you, but as I said we sometimes get bad suprises.
John

StarMetal
11-26-2005, 10:52 PM
Johniv

I tell ya, when a web blows out of case in a 1911 and gas goes down the mag well, man on man, usually the shooter ends up with wood splinters in his hand, a blowed out magazine, and bruised ego. I'm wondering what a Glock does if it blows gas down the mag well, that plastice grip doesn't look as brittle as wood, might just blow the magazine out.

Joe

johniv
11-26-2005, 11:16 PM
Sir, never had the pleasure of that while I was holding the gun..have seen some plastic guns that damaged that way. Not Glocks but I understand the term"KA-BOOM" was coined for glocks. The delema of a new bbl for a new gun may be determined by the support(or lack of) of the case or tightness of the chamber, but as we both know the polygonal bore can take the PB projectiles in stride. (Properly cast and sized, not necessasarly store bought, soft sweged slugs)
John

StarMetal
11-26-2005, 11:27 PM
Johniv

You know though, when HK brought out that 91 rifle it had polygon rifling. Dang things were deadly accurate too. Have a friend that still has one. But then HK went to regular rifling saying that the polygon rifling caused high pressure with certain ammo. How, why, what ammo?

Joe

johniv
11-27-2005, 12:15 AM
Joe, the 91 is very accurate, with poly or standard bore.Dont know what ammo prompted the change but I would be afraid of any solid bronze projectile, or the new "High power or High velocity" loadings in any semi auto. These werenot avail when the change to conventional rifleing was made.
(that I know of).The 91 worked best with 150 to 170 gr bullets. I wonder if they shoot PB boolits well. With no gas system they may be easy to feed, as there would be no problem with a gas port etc just balance the load and pressure curve to the standard locking piece ..but I digress..
John

versifier
11-27-2005, 04:49 AM
Hmmm. Thank you Joe for passing along those observations on .40 vs. .45 Glocks. Why, in your opinion, don't the .45's have the same kind of problems? :?
Maybe I should think about moving up to the G21.... I really like my G23, though, and my nephew is a cop, so I get all the brass I could ever want for it for nothing. It is a lot cheaper just to replace the barrel, too. I went from revolvers right to the Glock as I have never been comfortable with grip safeties, but that may be just that 1911 frames don't fit my hand as well as I'd like. My dad has a full sized Kimber which I've shot quite a bit, and it's very accurate, (and also a Colt Officer's Model which I think is a waste of perfectly good steel :-P ), but I am faster onto the target and more confident with my G23. I have nothing at all against the .45ACP, and I like the idea of the .45GAP though have not yet had a chance to put one through its paces. Any thoughts on .357SIG? How do they do with cast? It's just a matter of a new barrel to switch to that, too. :coffeecom
I think standards of beauty are relative. The Glocks have clean, simple lines, no controls to fiddle with or worry about, they're rugged and reliable, and they're more accurate than most comparable pistols. In all the 17's, 19's, 22's, and 23's that I have owned and/or shot, I have never experienced a single failure to feed. (Somewhere between 4-5000 rounds of 9mm's and .40's.) It might not win any beauty contests, but then, I wouldn't either. :-) Not that I really give a flyin' (whatever) how it looks, it works! And it works every time. I trust it with my life, and much more importantly, the lives of my children. To me, that's beautiful.

Four Fingers of Death
11-27-2005, 06:11 AM
Hmmm. Thank you Joe for passing along those observations on .40 vs. .45 Glocks. Why, in your opinion, don't the .45's have the same kind of problems? :?
Maybe I should think about moving up to the G21.... I really like my G23, though, and my nephew is a cop, so I get all the brass I could ever want for it for nothing. It is a lot cheaper just to replace the barrel, too. I went from revolvers right to the Glock as I have never been comfortable with grip safeties, but that may be just that 1911 frames don't fit my hand as well as I'd like. My dad has a full sized Kimber which I've shot quite a bit, and it's very accurate, (and also a Colt Officer's Model which I think is a waste of perfectly good steel :-P ), but I am faster onto the target and more confident with my G23. I have nothing at all against the .45ACP, and I like the idea of the .45GAP though have not yet had a chance to put one through its paces. Any thoughts on .357SIG? How do they do with cast? It's just a matter of a new barrel to switch to that, too. :coffeecom
I think standards of beauty are relative. The Glocks have clean, simple lines, no controls to fiddle with or worry about, they're rugged and reliable, and they're more accurate than most comparable pistols. In all the 17's, 19's, 22's, and 23's that I have owned and/or shot, I have never experienced a single failure to feed. (Somewhere between 4-5000 rounds of 9mm's and .40's.) It might not win any beauty contests, but then, I wouldn't either. :-) Not that I really give a flyin' (whatever) how it looks, it works! And it works every time. I trust it with my life, and much more importantly, the lives of my children. To me, that's beautiful.


Stands for ka boom, so a search on it and you will come up with some interesting reading. we have lost 40s several at work through reloads. Some say leading, some say dirty, we blew one up a new one the first mag I am told.

Our armour feels the pistol will fire while slightly out of battery and this combined with an ample chamber, stretched brass from being fired in the ample is enough sometimes to let go.

I have used a Mod 26 9mm (most seem to report problems with the 40+ cals) with lots of cast with no problems at all. I wished my new 92FS shot as well as that little snubbie Glock.

I'd use the issue Bbl for carry with jacketed ammo and get an after market Bbl for lead practice ammo and I'd also try and use the same weight/power level loads. I'd be reluctant to 'customise' your work gun with a 'killer' barrel which enhances performance and accuracy, keep it simple in court.

We are currently looking at H&Ks. Our armourer asked if reloads could be used in the guns, the rep answered, ' if you can jam it in the chamber, these guns will happily digest it!'

Ron
11-27-2005, 07:26 AM
KCSO, I have a Glock 34 in 9mm and shoot nothing but my own hard cast boolits through it. To date no problems with leading. The boolit is a 125 gr TC by CBE with 3.5grns of ADI AP70. Groups are tight off a rest.

Ron

FESTINA LENTE. (Hasten Slowly).

StarMetal
11-27-2005, 12:37 PM
I can add that a 40 S&W operates at a much much higher chamber pressure then a 45 acp so that right there doesn't help any kaboom problems the 40 may have. Funny, you never hear any blow ups or bad things about the 10mm Glocks and those are closer to being like a 40 S&W then the other calibers. You also hear of no problems with the 10mm in the 1911's other then they are hard on the frame.

Joe

versifier
11-27-2005, 03:10 PM
Here's the link Mick was talking about: http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/glock-kb-faq.html :holysheep :holysheep & :holysheep
It's a good thing I can type because I'm just about speechless. (Make note of that, it doesn't happen often, he he he!) Looks like I don't shoot any more reloads out of it until I get me that new barrel. (And no more .40 range brass!) Good excuse to buy another mold anyway. Thank you, Mick. That really was an eye-opener. They sure don't mention THAT site in the Glock ads, do they? I admit to thinking it was a keep-the-lawyers-happy situation, but it is clearly not (or not entirely). This is one mistake I don't need to make myself...
Sooo, which aftermarket barrel gives the best head support? Bar-Sto, Briley, Jarvis, or Wilson?

StarMetal
11-27-2005, 03:36 PM
All those brand barrels should be made to the same spec to fit the Glock the way the factory barrel did. There may be some hand fitting with some of them.

Joe

KCSO
11-27-2005, 04:04 PM
Before you get real excited about the "formally famous gun writer"...

Kabooms happen, they happen in any gun without a fully supported chamber and they are usually caused by ammunition that is over pressure FOR THE GUN.
I saw my first one in 1972 with a S and W M 39 and Super Vel ammo. The ammo was sent back and was determined to be over pressure. This was also common with folks hot rodding the 38 super and I have seen it also in a 1911 with over pressure rounds. (It amazes me that some folks think that an extra 100 fps will make up for poor placement, THERE IS NO MAGIC BULLET!!!!) The 45 acp was originally speced for around 18,000 to 22,000 psi and the 9MM luger was a high pressure round at 28,000. Now a +P 45 can fo 25,000 and a +P 9 at 34,000. Then put that same +p and the Glock that is at best a semi locked breech design, the Glock starts to open before the pressure has completely dropped, (Look at the case and see the primer wipe.) and put in ammo that is on the borderline and then RELOAD that bulged case a couple of times and KABOOM. By actual experiment it takes 6 reloads with Remington +P brass for the case to fail. You just have to sort your brass as usual and no problems.

Remember the Glock was designed for troops, and most troops anywhere are not GUN people. The Glock is easy to teach and simple to use, that is why most PD's are using them. They are the DA revolver of the 90's and add the fact that the average troop will NEVER have to do a reload in his lifetime and you see why the Glock is popular with the administrators.
The SWAT teams and the special troops are carrying 1911's or SIG's ect. They train to a level that the street troops never see.

Now back to topic for a brief...
I tried Lee 124 T/C bullets cast from 3/4 lino and 1/4 ww backed with 5.0 of unique today. The bullets were cast 48 hours ago and were water dropped.
The first three at 7 yards went in under 1" and the next 5 from 20 yards went in under 2". I consider this good for a Glock as most won't group better than 3" at 25 from a rest. The bad new is that 25 rounds leaded the barrel badly and accuracy started falling off. (Joe I know your Glock will shoot much better, most won't and I have test fired and issued 26 of them to date 21's 19's and22's. In addition at instructor qualification I am on the line with 50 other FI's from around the state so I get to see a LOT of guns and hear a LOT of opinion.) I am going to try a hard lube and see if that will help and if it doesn't I will have a Briley shipped out. It is a shame as the same bullet with just ww material with shoot as good as the gun in a High Power and my old 6906.

StarMetal
11-27-2005, 04:27 PM
ksco,

The Glocks you're seeing that don't shoot cast well are they 9mm's, 40 S&W's? Or are there some 45 acps that aren't? My Glock doesn't primer swipe either. Some loads with primer swipe and it's not from timing. Some actually blow the primer cup into the firing pin hole and when the gun unlocks it will either swipe it or cut a donut, depending on how far it was blowed into the firing pin hole. A good example of this, and it isn't timing, is when trying to hotrod a 38/45 conversion in a 1911. Two reasons for this: one, too high of a pressure for the round, and two, the firing pin hole is too larger for a 38.45 and should be bushed and fitted with the smaller 9mm/38 super firing pin.

Joe

9.3X62AL
11-28-2005, 11:33 AM
Versafier--

Many thanks for the Gunzone link. Its text is the best and most succinct forensic description of the "kB phenomenon" I've seen to date. Read and heed its information if you reload ammo for self-loading pistols, esp. in 40 S&W caliber. Our agency armorer's information parallels this information very closely.

versifier
11-28-2005, 03:10 PM
4fingermick put me onto it, I merely googled and found the actual webaddress. One hell of an eyeopener, wasn't it?

9.3X62AL
11-28-2005, 03:26 PM
No kidding!

Every so often, a reloading manual comes up with a nugget of safety info that should amplified and repeated. One such nugget is found in the text of the several Speer Reloading Manuals I've used over the years, dealing with the 9mm Parabellum cartridge. In tests they reference, bullets intentionally seated .030" deeper than given specifications caused pressures to go from roughly 30K PSI to 62K PSI.

That would be a rude surprise to an unsupported case head that had been expanded and resized a few times, then re-chambered with the work-hardened and weakened case head area overlying the unsupported chamber area. I'm sure the 40 S&W is very similar in behavior--sharing the high operating pressures of the 9mm as it does. The 45 ACP runs at roughly half the pressure of the 9mm/40 S&W/357 SIG/10mm tribe, so a bit of unsupported case head isn't quite the concern it would be in the more intense service rounds.

I have and use the 40, the 10, and the 45--I'm not real certain the 40 Short & Weak is worth the effort, given that it matches the 45's terminal performance but needs nearly twice the pressure to do so. The 10mm and its pressures make sense because it delivers considerably more downrange WHACK than the 45 ACP, and shoots flatter in the bargain. But what do I know--the market clamors for the 40, and largely ignores the 10mm. Go figure.

StarMetal
11-28-2005, 04:19 PM
Deputy Al,

If you remember the 10mm came out before the 40 S&W. It was taking off pretty hot, the FBI supposely adopted it, but wanted a lighter loading and I think there was one. Then wimpitis set in and all the wuzzies wanted something even more lighter, thus the 40 S&W. I will have to admit first the 10mm requires a large frame pistol and in it's full house power it does have a pretty good crack and whack...at both ends. From what I'm reading now the 45 GAP is really taking off and it can be put in a slightly smaller package then the 45acp especially in the grip girth. I think the 45 GAP is what the 40 S&W wants and should be.

Joe

Fireball 57
11-30-2005, 01:08 AM
I am sorry to hear about Ka-boom Glocks. They ARE butt-ugly, unsupported chambered,and made by a bicycle company. My Walther P99 has had nothing but cast 9mm through it. Nice, smooth 4# trigger,too. I wiped out the barrel some time back. Don't see a need to do it again. The indoor range limit is 950fps. Shot about 3.8 gns. Red dot with a 122 gn.FP cast, mixed range brass. Shoots cloverleafs at 25 yards. What's good for James Bond, is good enough for me. :hijack:

KCSO
12-05-2005, 06:15 PM
Starmetal
Sorry it took so long to get back to you . I have yet to see a glock that will shoot lead bullets. Per Glock Armorers manual " The Glock rifling is particularaly prone to lead build up and this will cause increased pressure". I currently see 12 to 15 Glocks at a time on the range and I have test fired quite a few, mostly 22 and 21's and in the interest of experimentation I tried them all with lead bullets and all showed leading in as little as 8 rounds. I have to date tried 6 different lead loads runing from WW to Lino with different lubes in my M19 and all lead quickly and my best load I woudn't shoot more than 20 rounds without cleaning.
As to firing pin wipe, I have yet to see a Glock that doesn't show at least a little. I base this on having just sorted 90 lbs of once fired range brass. In fact most of the rounds show the primer bleedig back into the firing pin hole. I asked about this and was told that this was NORMAL for the Glock and that is why the firing pins were chisel shaped, so there would be less friction as the pin slid out of the indent. I don't say this is good or bad, it's just the way it is. For the most part the Glocks I see work flawlessly, so I don't worry myself on this. My ONLY problem is that for me to instruct I have pretty high standards as to my own preformance and when I wring in a new gun I will shoot 500 to 1000 rounds both hands all positions and if I don't use reloads this can be quite an expense. My department gives me 200 rounds a YEAR for qualification and I supply all my own practice ammo. At the last Instructors school I attended I burned up 500 rounds in 1 day so you can see why my needs may be a little off from the casual shooter. If your 21 shoots 1 1/2 at 25 and shoots lead well I congratulate you, you have an exceptional gun. For me to continue to shoot my Glock I am going to go with a Briley barrel and keep the Glock tube for FACTORY JACKETED ammo only.

StarMetal
12-05-2005, 07:40 PM
ksco,

With some cast ammo my 21 will even chew a hole. I've put more then 20 rounds through it at a time and it doesn't get a lead build up. It's some of the smoothest rifling I've ever seen in a pistol.

I think you were told right on the firing pin hole and firing pin by the Glock folks. Like I said a firing pin wipe doesn't alway indicate out of time. My 21 makes a very very small indent in the primer and I haven't seen any wipe on it even with very hot loads.

I was just given 1000 once fired 9mm casings. They must have come off a range on one particular day as there were really only two different firing pin indentations. One was definately a Glock and it definately had the firing pin wipe.

Joe

KCSO
12-05-2005, 09:07 PM
Ya see Joe there's the difference.

My Glock 19 will shoot and group good with a little lead. But when I go practice or shoot a qual. I have to shoot from 50 to 100 rounds and I can't stop to clean. In general most of the Glocks I have shot will go between 3 and 4 inches at 25 yards and for their purpose that is good shooting. With it's best load my 1911 will go 1 1/2" at 25 and willl shoot into 6" at 100 yards. I'm an old revolver man, having started with a K22 and a K 38 so none of the semi's measure up right from the box. What I like about the Glock is that now that I am mostly in jail and admin I have to take my gun off and put it back on 20 times a day and with the Glock I have a small light weight package with 15 rounds and that will carry me through any gun fight I can imagine. I don't have to carry a spare mag and when I tke a prisoner up to court I just slip the paddle under my belt and go. With the 45 I always carry spare mags so I have to put on a belt with mag pouches and keepers and then 15 min later take it off and lock it up PITA. When I can get the little bugger to make all head shots at 15 yards either hand then I will be satisfied.