Midway usa's shocking indifference to customer

[MOA]

Well, I was really looking forward to casting up and shooting my two new arrivals. A Remington, and a Husqvarna rolling blocks in 12,7x44R.

I DO NOT KNOW IF I WILL EVER SHOOT THEM NOW BECAUSE THE ALLOY FOR CHAMBER CASTING FROM MIDWAY WILL NOT RELEASE FROM CHAMBERS.

BOTH RIFLES ARE NOW USELESS.

Called Midway when first rifle would not release after 15 minutes, and second one would not release after 10 minutes. No answers except to wait an hour an try again.........still stuck after a hour, was told, sorry, maybe I should go to a gunsmith, sorry, we have no gunsmith or any technical help here we just sell stuff, product department thought maybe boiling water might help loosen alloy, but no instruction as to how to go about using boiling water.

So maybe a heads up for anyone else who is thinking about using Midways product. Enjoy my pictures. That's a 1/4 " solid aluminum rod. And even with a sledge hammer I use on firewood would not free the alloy after one hour. The rod now has a nice nail head look to it.

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The official response.
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[eric123]

Did you try removing the stocks and submerging in a large pot of boiling water?

[Omega]

You are supposed to remove the cast in about 2 to 4 minutes from pouring. It will begin expanding after a few minutes (it contracts first) and in 1.5 hours it is the size of your bore. You will have to remelt it at least part ways. Use a soldering iron to melt it out, or a small torch but be careful not to overheat the chamber.

Here is what I did yesterday with four barrels: I sprayed mold release into the chamber, just a dusting, you can use a light coat of sprue plate lube. I plugged the barrel with an aluminum check, smooth side toward the end of the barrel. I melted the cerrosafe and poured it into the chamber, waited about two or three minutes and used an aluminum rod to pound it out, just a few light taps did it. I did have one in which I poured wider than the locking lugs so had to remelt it a bit, but it melts quickly in a direct flame.

217683

[ShooterAZ]

Boiling water (212* at sea level) is above the melt temp of cerrosafe (approx 190*). Removing the stocks and immersing the barrel "might" just work to soften it up enough to remove it. I'd try that first before going to more drastic measures.

[Warhead]

Take a minute to chill out, and have a beer. :razz: I've been there and dun that already, and its really easy to fix!

Take the wood off of the gun, and with the gun in a vice up side down and muzzle pointed the the ceiling at about a 40 degree angle gently heat the chamber with a torch and it'll fall right out!

[Walter Laich]

I was thinking one of those really hot heat guns might do the trick. Not a hair heat gun but one that gets seriously hot

[thegatman]

Thanks for the heads up. It seems lots of good advice too.

[Bent Ramrod]

Boil water in a whistling tea kettle, take off the wood and as much of the metal parts that you can, and hold the receiver/barrel in the steam. Have somebody pushing on a cleaning rod in the bore until what's left of the casting pushes out. Shake out the molten drops and wipe the chamber with an oily rag. Melt the Cerrosafe again, put the cleaning rod with a patch into the muzzle up to the leade, warm the receiver and chamber and pour the casting. As soon as that casting frosts over in the center, tap or push it out of the chamber with the cleaning rod. Let it cool and expand outside the chamber for measurement. The reason that Cerrisafe makes for such accurate measurements is that it doesn't shrink after cooling, like most alloys. As you've found out, this is not an unalloyed advantage. (*Rim-shot*)

As Harry Pope said in his catalog about all the people who got absent-minded in their loading routines and shot their false muzzles off their rifles, "Who has not done this?" :mrgreen: If I seem to be the Voice of Experience here, there is a reason. Don't ask.

[slim1836]

Let us know how this story pans out.

Slim

[Omega]

I got my data from this article and seem to match what I measured as I did mine.
http://www.texas-mac.com/Case_Lengths_Chamber_Casts_and_Impact_Impression.h tml
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[sghart3578]

Yep, been there, done that.

Now I use a heat gun to preheat the chamber and receiver after plugging the barrel. I pour in the Cerrosafe and watch closely.

I have a rod in the bore ready to go. After the Cerrosafe frosts over I count to 10 and tap it out.

[MOA]

Well, I got one rifle done. Real pita. Stripped gun complete. Arranged over ingot tray put the heat to it. Punched out tail end of cast.

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217701

Then like a moron, I decide I will recast..........so I recast it, waited 1 minute an attempted to knock cast out. A big no go. So much for my solid 1/4 rod.

217702

So, FORGET IT. THESE SUCKERS WILL NOT BE CHAMBER CAST. I WILL FIND ANOTHER WAY TO SEE IF THEY SHOOT. IF THEY DON'T THEN I WILL REBARREL. I'VE MOVED ON FROM THIS ****.

Will fix rifle #2 tomorrow. Will never, ever, ever, spend a dime with Midway as long as I draw breath. I would rather pay twice the price somewhere else, or do without, period.

[ascast]

sorry to hear all that--I liked the beer part - by any chance you have pits in there?

[Boolit_Head]

Maybe these instructions would help.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KgRp3r9VPE0

[Omega]

Did you lube the chamber, and made sure the sprue was not too wide?

[Fluxed]

Maybe you can ask Larry to come over and cast it for you. He seemed to be pretty good at it in the video posted above.

[edctexas]

The other thing to watch is that you fill the chamber too full. i.e. you get the cerrosafe into a locking lug depression or the like. The heat guns used for shrinking tubing will work for getting out the stuck metal.

The advice of something as a mold release is good. Once you have done it, you'll wonder why anyone would have a problem. If you keep the castings, you can measure them after they expand and still find the true measurement. If you foul up you will hate it. There are other alloys used, but cerrosafe is the easiest and best.

Ed C

[MOA]

Did you lube the chamber, and made sure the sprue was not too wide?

Yes, spray lubed the chamber. If you looked at the first set of images, you would have noticed that I did not quite fill them up to the top. My interest in the casting was the leade and size of free bore if any. I watch Larry's video before I ordered the chamber casting material. I will say this......the product is not cerrosafe. Cerrosafe the real deal usually is a ingot and it has their product name on it, I don't know what this stuff noway is selling be I doubt it is cerrosafe even if they use they name in their product description. I do wonder if the makers of cerrosafe are selling their product to noway. Maybe I'll call them next week an see if they do business with noway. But I digress. I followed all the steps and procedures shown in the video. The second time less then 2 minute before I tried to get it out. Still a no go. Will not be doing chambers casts on these, they either shoot or they will be rebarreled. Period.

[MOA]

Maybe you can ask Larry to come over and cast it for you. He seemed to be pretty good at it in the video posted above.

Larry can put it where the sun don't shine.

[MOA]

The other thing to watch is that you fill the chamber too full. i.e. you get the cerrosafe into a locking lug depression or the like. The heat guns used for shrinking tubing will work for getting out the stuck metal.

The advice of something as a mold release is good. Once you have done it, you'll wonder why anyone would have a problem. If you keep the castings, you can measure them after they expand and still find the true measurement. If you foul up you will hate it. There are other alloys used, but cerrosafe is the easiest and best.

Ed C

Geeeezzzzzz, rollers don't have no locking lugs. Chambers were not filled to the top. Review initial post images. Enlarge if you need a closer and clearer image. The fullest pour was still .1670 below the rim recess. The second rifle had a 1/4" below rim recess. The pour, or the amount, or the lube, or the elapsed time is not the issue.

[Walter Laich]

I sent a copy of this to Midway to see if they can explain their position on it

will report back if/when I hear something

[bkbville]

Pits or chamber scratch is most likely the cause.

[Boolit_Head]

Its all Bolton metal under a brand name and pretty much the same.

[HangFireW8]

This thread is weird to me.

I don't expect MSC or Allied to tell me how to use every machine tool or electronics product they sell. I expect a valid data sheet, accurate product description, quick shipping and correct packaging. Pretty much the same with Midway.

Frankly if you didn't know you could just boil it out or use a heat gun, you really should do your research first or stay away from guns. Jumping in with both feet and then complaining about the VENDOR for your GUNSMITHING ***** is barking up the wrong tree. Try looking in the mirror for the correct complaint department.

Thread title should be "Midway customer's shocking blame-game ploy"

[MOA]

I sent a copy of this to Midway to see if they can explain their position on it

will report back if/when I hear something

For your reading pleasure.

RE: Problem with chamber casting alloy. (CID:hlg4plt0msr43x9ygf)
MidwayUSA Customer Service <customerservice@midwayusa.com>
Today, 12:43 PMYou

Dear Barry,

Thank you very much for your email. Due to the volume of email that he receives, Larry can't respond to each one personally and has asked that I respond on his behalf.

We appreciate your feedback. I apologize for the frustration that this process has caused but unfortunately at this time other than taking it to a gunsmith we do not have a solution other than the ones that was provided to you. I apologize for the inconvenience.



On Behalf of Larry,



Thanks for Your Business,

Troy

MidwayUSA Customer Service


Next.............................................. ..........

Regarding Your Order
MidwayUSA Customer Service <customerservice@midwayusa.com>
Today, 10:20 AMYou

Dear Barry,



Thank you for the email concerning your recent attempt to cast your chamber. I am very sorry for the frustration this has caused, however after speaking with the product department I was not able to receive a definitive answer. The one suggestion I did receive from them was to attempt to loosen the alloy with boiling water. Please feel free to give us a call at the number below if you need further assistance.



If you have any additional questions or comments, please feel free to contact us at 1-800-243-3220. Our hours of operation are Monday through Friday 8 a.m. to 6 p.m. CST. You may also email us at customerservice@midwayusa.com.



Thanks for Your Business!



Chris

MidwayUSA Customer Service



Next.............................................. ..

RE: Chamber casting problems (CID:bcrn1lp4lpkk6qz1gj)
MidwayUSA Customer Service <customerservice@midwayusa.com>
Today, 12:49 PMYou

Dear Barry,



Thank you very much for your email. Due to the volume of email that he receives, Larry can't respond to each one personally and has asked that I respond on his behalf.



On Behalf of Larry,



I am very sorry to see what has happened. It looks as though the cast was allowed to sit for too long. There is a "sweet spot" when casting a chamber. You have to pull out the aluminum before it hardens completely, right after it begins to solidify.



There are a few ways to soften aluminum- boiling water will do the trick, pouring it down the barrel then gently use a cleaning rod to push the aluminum out. Due to the rarity of these rifles though, I would recommend they be taken to a certified gunsmith for further work though.



Thanks for Your Business,



Nick

[Boolit_Head]

From their perspective they are spot on. Their could be a myriad of reasons for this not to work from user didn't follow instructions to something like a ringed chamber or anything in between. If they instruct you on what to do they would then own the issue and the results. By telling you to take it to a smith they absolve themselves of liability for what you do.

[MOA]

This thread is weird to me.

I don't expect MSC or Allied to tell me how to use every machine tool or electronics product they sell. I expect a valid data sheet, accurate product description, quick shipping and correct packaging. Pretty much the same with Midway.

Frankly if you didn't know you could just boil it out or use a heat gun, you really should do your research first or stay away from guns. Jumping in with both feet and then complaining about the VENDOR for your GUNSMITHING ***** is barking up the wrong tree. Try looking in the mirror for the correct complaint department.

Thread title should be "Midway customer's shocking blame-game ploy"

I guess you missed the point........... If they are going to sell the product, it would be nice if they were forthcoming with a staff that can come up with a solution without the runaround, and the initial attitude of take it to the gunsmith., but thanks for your help on it. Not. I watched the video Larry did on chamber casting and followed the same procedure, their product came in a clear plastic bag, with a label on it that said simply and only, chamber casting alloy, 1/2 lb. No instructions in bag, no brand name on product bag. Only sku# and a note to use lots of ventilation. Ya, your on target, nice to have all those little documentation data sheets, the do's and dont's, but it is a pretty straight forward process. I doubt very much that I'm that stupid.

But like I said, I have gone through the first rifle and got it cleared, tomorrow I will finish the second one. Case closed. I could care less what Noway USA does in dealing with its customers, I will not be one that is impacted by their policies or their lackluster and underpowering technical staff.

[HangFireW8]

I didn't miss the point. Larry didn't either. He gave you the only liability safe advice he could, for the circumstances, for the benefit of his company, given they are selling gunsmithing supplies to the public.

[edp2k]

This thread is weird to me.

I don't expect MSC or Allied to tell me how to use every machine tool or electronics product they sell. I expect a valid data sheet, accurate product description, quick shipping and correct packaging. Pretty much the same with Midway.

Frankly if you didn't know you could just boil it out or use a heat gun, you really should do your research first or stay away from guns. Jumping in with both feet and then complaining about the VENDOR for your GUNSMITHING ***** is barking up the wrong tree. Try looking in the mirror for the correct complaint department.

Thread title should be "Midway customer's shocking blame-game ploy"

THIS X2

I thought he said that the "guns are now useless!".
Really?

[AntiqueSledMan]

Hello All,

I have never done a chamber cast, fears of what happened to MOA.
I have a 32-20 which the chamber is so rough,
I'm sure the same thing would happen.

AntiqueSledMan

[MOA]

Hello All,

I have never done a chamber cast, fears of what happened to MOA.
I have a 32-20 which the chamber is so rough,
I'm sure the same thing would happen.

AntiqueSledMan


Right on AntiqueSledMan,
I'm sure that is most likely the problem, these were all shooting black. Most likely the throat and rifling and leade are eroded and that was giving a better grip on the alloy than it would have had if it had been smoother. Live and learn. Would have been nice to have had some instruction sheet with the product, would even be nicer to have a product sheet that mentions the fact that chamber casting an old black powder guns could, might, possibly, most, likely, would have a rough throat and leade and a different method and material used would be less problematic in trying to cast this area.

[MOA]

Pits or chamber scratch is most likely the cause.

I have to agree with you bknville, most likely cause, badly eroded leade, throat from black powder.

[evoevil]

I've used cerrosafe many times, some with oil some without. Never used a torch, just a heat gun. try heating the chamber area and it should pop out. The operators at Midway are not gunsmiths, not a reason to put on blast and taking a damaged gun to a smith would be the correct thing to say, if they told you how to do it and you damage the gun, you would blast them for that. Take your time and you'll get a good casting of the chamber

[MOA]

THIS X2

I thought he said that the "guns are now useless!".
Really?

Just what do you call a firearm with chamber casting alloy stuck in the chamber????? Operable????
They were useless until they get cleaned out. Ya know, everybody is so quick to do a vid about how to do this and how to do that, well sometimes when problems occur it would be nice to have had a vid out there about what to do when things don't go as expected. Did you ever see a vid on what to do when a chamber casting does not come out after 10 to 15 minutes.

But I'm sure many of the forum readers have never had any kind of ***** problem and just can't see how anyone could if they only had a brain.

[OS OK]

This thread is weird to me.

I don't expect MSC or Allied to tell me how to use every machine tool or electronics product they sell. I expect a valid data sheet, accurate product description, quick shipping and correct packaging. Pretty much the same with Midway.

Frankly if you didn't know you could just boil it out or use a heat gun, you really should do your research first or stay away from guns. Jumping in with both feet and then complaining about the VENDOR for your GUNSMITHING ***** is barking up the wrong tree. Try looking in the mirror for the correct complaint department.

Thread title should be "Midway customer's shocking blame-game ploy"

I agree.


I guess you missed the point........... If they are going to sell the product, it would be nice if they were forthcoming with a staff that can come up with a solution without the runaround, and the initial attitude of take it to the gunsmith., but thanks for your help on it. Not. I watched the video Larry did on chamber casting and followed the same procedure, their product came in a clear plastic bag, with a label on it that said simply and only, chamber casting alloy, 1/2 lb. No instructions in bag, no brand name on product bag. Only sku# and a note to use lots of ventilation. Ya, your on target, nice to have all those little documentation data sheets, the do's and dont's, but it is a pretty straight forward process. I doubt very much that I'm that stupid.

But like I said, I have gone through the first rifle and got it cleared, tomorrow I will finish the second one. Case closed. I could care less what Noway USA does in dealing with its customers, I will not be one that is impacted by their policies or their lackluster and underpowering technical staff.

Wouldn't it be easier to just admit that 'you made all the mistakes?' ... That 'you didn't anticipate this outcome & are disappointed that someone didn't rush to your rescue?' People did rush to your rescue...look at all the answers to the post.

It is past 'high time' for Americans to start owning their mistakes again, stop the 'blame game' ... the bottom line here, 'you learned something the difficult way this time, next time...if there is one, you'll prolly ask before you do.

MidwayUSA has been exemplary to deal with, I see no reason here for you to try to smear their image.

[elmacgyver0]

I cannot count the amount of projects that I have screwed up over the years.
I have learned a wealth of knowledge in the process.
The key to success is to do the research first and then do a test run.
There are some things that are more of an art than following a simple set of instructions and requires time, patience, and practice to become proficient at.
If I burn my steak I don't blame the butcher.

[Wayne Smith]

Been there, done that, had the same frustration. Mine was the rifle side of a Cape Gun, unknown caliber. I've told the story here a couple of times, but not the chamber cast. Got CerroSafe from BECO, complete with instructions and the shrink rate sheet. This was an old rimmed cartridge, so I tried to cast the rim as well - Yeah, the extractor cut was the culprit. Got my low temp torch and carefully melted it out after some language I don't like to admit I use. But then, I had read the instructions, done some research on the internet, and knew it's melting point. Didn't take much thinking to see I could melt it out without damaging the chamber. I eventually, after the third attempt, and some gum blocking the extractor cut, got a chamber cast I could use, including the rim.

This is the 10.5x47R chamber that Dave Davidson (CH4D) said was different that his other 23 10.5x47R chambers!

[NSB]

I guess you missed the point........... If they are going to sell the product, it would be nice if they were forthcoming with a staff that can come up with a solution without the runaround, and the initial attitude of take it to the gunsmith., but thanks for your help on it. Not. I watched the video Larry did on chamber casting and followed the same procedure, their product came in a clear plastic bag, with a label on it that said simply and only, chamber casting alloy, 1/2 lb. No instructions in bag, no brand name on product bag. Only sku# and a note to use lots of ventilation. Ya, your on target, nice to have all those little documentation data sheets, the do's and dont's, but it is a pretty straight forward process. I doubt very much that I'm that stupid.

But like I said, I have gone through the first rifle and got it cleared, tomorrow I will finish the second one. Case closed. I could care less what Noway USA does in dealing with its customers, I will not be one that is impacted by their policies or their lackluster and underpowering technical staff.
It's unfortunate that so many companies sell tools to people who shouldn't be allowed to own or use them. You owe Midway an apology. No one missed the point you're trying to make...there isn't one. Don't start projects when you don't know what you're doing. Same with any type of "do it yourself" project. You started it and you expect them to bail you out. It just doesn't work that way.