Alloying safety

[Sitsinhedges]

Hiya, first post here.

I have been looking around the site to find out about casting safety, particularly when alloying antimony with lead and the resulting fumes.

Struggling a bit to find what I need even though I was directed to this site for just that purpose.

Can anyone help as I'd like to stay as safe as possible and avoid taking a hit from anything nasty.

My main interest is shotmaking, BTW.

Thanks in advance
Andy

[mooman76]

There are some who believe you don't really have anything to worry about fume wise as long as you don't boil the lead which is difficult to attain that high a temperature. I am one of them but with the same note I don't believe in taking chances when it is so easy to avoid anyway. Just make sure you are well ventalated as in do it outside or have a vent fan sucking the fumes outside from the inside. When handleing lead use goves or wash up good after so you aren't getting lead on your hands and absorbing it through the skin or mouth. You can also have your doctor do a check (bloodwork)when you see him for contaminates. It's not really that big of a deal as long as you use the proper cautions. And welcome to the board!

[Sitsinhedges]

There are some who believe you don't really have anything to worry about fume wise as long as you don't boil the lead which is difficult to attain that high a temperature. I am one of them but with the same note I don't believe in taking chances when it is so easy to avoid anyway. Just make sure you are well ventalated as in do it outside or have a vent fan sucking the fumes outside from the inside. When handleing lead use goves or wash up good after so you aren't getting lead on your hands and absorbing it through the skin or mouth. You can also have your doctor do a check (bloodwork)when you see him for contaminates. It's not really that big of a deal as long as you use the proper cautions. And welcome to the board!

Thankyou very much for replying Mooman.

My main concern is with taking lead to the melting point of antimony, nearly twice the melting point of lead at 1166f and I understand that toxic gas can be released from the lead from around 1000f in increasing quantities until it reaches its boiling point.
I understand that this gas is of a different nature to any fumes that might be produced at or just above the melting point of lead. I also understand that this gas is colourless and odourless so the only way you would know you had been affected would be once the symptoms show themselves. Could that be too late?

Here in Britain the supply of wheel weights has long since stopped so we have to find other means to achieve what we need to and mixing pure antimony seems to be about the only really reliable route cos even print type is about as rare as hens teeth now.

All the best
Andy

[mooman76]

It is my understanding that you don't have to get antimony to it's melting point to add to lead. It was explained to me that you will have to get the lead a little hotter but it will desolve something like how candy will desolve in your mouth. Yes I guess at worst case it could get really bad before you find out but I think that would be worst case if you don't take percausions. I have heard of welders getting poisoned by some of the metals they weld but they get that stuff really hot.
It's looking like we may be loosing out WWs in a few more years. You can add Chilled magnum shot to your lead, it has antimony in it, that's if you can get that there. Or if you can find some lynotype.

[Shiloh]

It is also my understanding the the antimony will amalgamate or coalesce into the molten lead without having overheat the lead.

Check with this guy.

http://www.theantimonyman.com/index.htm

Shiloh

[HeavyMetal]

Welders usually get poisoned because they are welding on metal that has been coated with a rust preventative material.

Currently auto body repair has the biggest problem because the auto bodies are galvanized!

I take it you want to make shot? All the type metals do contain antimony in high percentages but they also contain tin in high percentages.

If you can find a source of wheel weights you'll find your antimony and lead but no expensive tin to deal with!

The question is how much shot are you talking about? If your wanting a few hundred pounds a year then WW metal, along with a shot maker, is your answer! However if your thinking of production / sales you'll need to source your matrials and deal with the hazards.

Hope this helps.

[44man]

Antimony will melt into lead at 600* with the proper flux. Go to the Antimony Man site for flux.

[Sitsinhedges]

heavyMetal, I'm certainly not thinking of going into production but have developed my set up over a few months and wish to perfect it. I have already made over 100kilos, some from neat lead, some from scavenged wheel weights that are virtually impossible to get now and also some from alloying stuff myself which made great shot but was scary to do. The fact that I can shoot it is almost secondary, I find it fascinating and want to make it the best that I can. I am an inveterate tinkerer I'm afraid. I'd rather not kill myself in the process though.

ATB
Andy

[docone31]

There is a lot of hype about foundry disease. Inhalation of zinc. I have gotten it. Flu like symptoms for two days, smarter next time.
There is a lot of hype on lead. I have worked with lead, doing some of the stupidest things imagineable!
Just cook it outside. Stay upwind. You can alloy antimony in with the lead melted. With excessive heat, you can super load the ratio, but you are defeating what you want.
Back when I was a kid, we used to play with mercury. We would go to the town dump, look for thermometers, collect the mercury, put it in our pockets, watch it run on the palm of our hand.
I guess that was stupid. However, after all that, I never showed positive for mercury. I am a jeweler, when tested for metallics in the blood stream, I have very low numbers. Actually, normal numbers.
I love watching melted metals also. It is just fascinating. Casting is secondary to me also.
Just stay upwind, and try to not be stupid.

[Sitsinhedges]

It is also my understanding the the antimony will amalgamate or coalesce into the molten lead without having overheat the lead.

Check with this guy.

http://www.theantimonyman.com/index.htm

Shiloh


Just what is this pink flux? I am in the UK so buying it from the antimony man may not be that simple but I do have some pink flux from when I used to cast aluminium in green sand, I used to stir a spoonful into the crucible to bring out the impurities, coarse like sugar, could it be the same stuff?

Cheers
Andy

[leftiye]

I'd try hanging the antimony (if it was one piece on) a wire, and playing an acetylene torch, or mapp gas torch on it while dipping it repeatedly into the lead. Perhaps apply the heat to the bottom of the piece of antimony and the top of the lead simultaneously. If it is powdered antimony, then add a pinch at a time on top of the lead and apply the torch to it and stir it in when it appears to be molten.

With all of these fuming scenarios a slow fan (or breeze)blowing across in front of you taking the possible vapors away (if outside), or into another exhaust fan (if inside) seems to be adequate. It would also be easy to set up a filter mask to supply you with remote air supply if you wanted to.

[kenjuudo]

Andy, PM sent.

jim

[oso]

Antimony will dissolve in molten lead if some tin is present (forming an inter-metalic compound with the antimony, the tin facilitates dissolution.) High temps and special flux are not required; I just submerge the antimony in the lead tin (1% tin will do) alloy and move the submerging mesh up and down.
I have also melted antimony and it was more trouble than it was worth.

[imashooter2]

In the dim and distant past, I alloyed a 50/50 mix to use as enrichment metal. To get the temperature required, I made a charcoal and fire brick blast furnace. The resultant 50/50 would easily alloy with lead at casting temperatures. It was an enormous PITA to make though.

[HeavyMetal]

Sitsinhedges:
I can certainly understand your interest in maintaining your health!

Tinkering is enormous fun, no matter what you tinker with.

You've gotten good advice here on how and where to smelt your alloy, basically any well vented area.

As we all know wheel weight metal is the mainstay of casting. Yes some states here are trying to get rid of WW metal but so far it's still available at reasonable prices.

Here in the Continental US the post office will ship 70 lbs of anything that will fit in thier flat rate box for about $14.00 US currency.

I have no idea how much that changes going overseas but I think it's worth invistagating on the off chance you may be able to buy WW metal here and get it shipped to you by our post office.

I know some of the members here are with the post office so maybe a few will chime in or you may start a seperate thread asking for specific's on overseas shipments by the post office. Might be worth the effort might not.

As you already know from your own experience WW metal is the way to get high anitmony content shot with out a bunch of real work!

[Bob Krack]

You've gotten good advice here on how and where to smelt your alloy, basically any well vented area.
As we all know wheel weight metal is the mainstay of casting. Yes some states here are trying to get rid of WW metal but so far it's still available at reasonable prices.
Here in the Continental US the post office will ship 70 lbs of anything that will fit in their flat rate box for about $14.00 US currency.
I have no idea how much that changes going overseas but I think it's worth invistagating on the off chance you may be able to buy WW metal here and get it shipped to you by our post office.
As you already know from your own experience WW metal is the way to get high anitmony content shot with out a bunch of real work!
The International rate for "flat rate box" is 20 pounds (I believe).

20 pounds of "foundry type" would make more sense to me.... should mix well with plain lead. Babbitt should make a good additive also?

Fumes are a danger to be rekoned with without humor - what we breath in toxic fumes are sometimes recognized too late to treat.

Last but not least on an issue I am pretty knowledgeable in is lead (and other toxic metal) dust and other particulate matter. Lead dust will settle on anything in the near vicinty of it's generation. Your drink, your sandwich, your cigarettes (open your shirt pocket) and lead will accumulate in your system via ingestion or inhalation.

I have never heard of lead being absorbed through the skin - unless it was traveling fairly fast!:mrgreen:

Vic