Final Exploding Taurus Judge Thread With Probable Solution

[jonp]

Here are links to the other 2 threads on The Exploding Taurus. I hope that some may find this entire saga useful in the future
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?357535-Taurus-Judge-Blew-Up-With-My-Handloads-Opinions
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?357568-Chasing-The-Blown-Up-Taurus-Mystery-Here-Is-What-I-Have-Found-So-Far

The other 2 threads were full of useful insights and suggestions. Many guys stepped up to the plate including through PM's and the last PM started me thinking. Combined with some of the other comments, research on this sight and a link to a different site about velocity vs barrel length caused everything to click so here it is.

I first started out looking at the ammo and then the components. I checked that the powder was correct and because of a suggestion that the wrong powder may have been put into the bottle I was using, poured the bottle out and compared to the ETR7 I last used to load up some 38sp. All was the normal black Unique. After several suggested a double load I weighed all of the rounds and they were within a couple of grains of each other and with my hand trickling each round and using a single stage there was at least 3 times I looked into the brass and would have noticed a double as I tried loading 17.6gr of Unique in one to see what it looked like and it was near the rim easily visible. I would have caught it. Another suggested checking the scale to see if I'd moved it somehow from grains to grams as my GemPro 250 has grams, grains, ounces, carots and probably British Stones. I checked it then re calibrated it before pulling bullets and weighing the powder of a random selection of bullets. All was where it should be within .05grains. Another member suggested bullet setback so I checked the bullets and they all looked good. When I ran some over a chrony yesterday after each shot I opened the BH up to look at them and they were fine. Dismissing that I turned to the revolver and looked at everything I could think of and what members suggested. The barrel was fine showing little leading, no Glock Block, bulge or anything although the forcing cone was tilted a little down and to about 1900 with some lead jammed into the area between the cone and the frame which I didn't notice the first time around as I assumed it was powder until I scraped it with a pick and it came up shiny.

Someone pointed to the cylinder itself and a pressure spike caused by ??. Also suggested was either a manufacturers defect in the metal or a flat out blockage in the chamber evidenced by the position of the bulge in the cylinder. Even a loose boolit was brought up. Further in the thread someone said something about the cylinder free wheeling or being off and I found a different site that said this was not unknown in Taurus pistols so I checked again and sure enough the round that was in the chamber that blew had a slightly off center firing pin strike. The final clues were my reading an old thread about Unique with a mention from Larry Gibson that as you approach max with Unique it can get spikey. This was followed by an article sent to me by a friend not on this site about barrel length testing in relation to differences in velocity readings. Unrelated to this discussion but timely.

All of this brings me to yesterday's testing of 20 random rounds from the box of 100 reloads. I was looking for velocity spikes indicating pressure changes but came up with a deviation that was not out of the norm. I assumed that since I was using a BH with a 7.5in barrel instead of the 6.5in of the Taurus combined with a tighter cylinder gap the velocity would be higher. The readings I got averaged 1065fps with one at 1100fps. For some reason that didn't register as I was concerned with variation not the numbers themselves. When I got to thinking about it today I remembered I should have been in the 900fps range. That didn't sound right. When I got home I checked the book to make sure and after re-reading the article on barrel length realized that each inch of barrel should have been about a change of 25fps and here I was 200fps over. When I tested a few the first time I didn't use a chrony, I just shot a couple and they were fine so loaded them up. The extra FPS could not be explained by the barrel length, cylinder gap, slight powder difference or the difference in weight of the cast boolits. Not that much so I pulled the ammo out when I got home and looked at it again.

All looked good with a nice, heavy crimp but when I pulled out my RCBS Dial Caliper to measure them something was off. I had visually looked at them but not measured them. The lengths were a uniform 1.565in. Huh? They should have been 1.60in. What gives? Thinking back I had not used my RCBS Dial but a Franklin Armory Digital I had for several years. Getting it out and trying gave me....1.6in. Several attempts at measuring bullets, ammo and a few other things showed it consistently off.

So, long story short here is my theory based on all of this. All of the ammo had the bullet too far into the case to start due to the faulty digital caliper. Being near max loading this had the effect of raising the already high pressure to near the limit for the Judge. When firing that light gun each round had enough recoil to force the rim of the brass on the next round a tiny bit into the lead itself in the crimp groove forcing the bullet a little farther into the case raising the pressure a little more. By the third round the recoil forced the cylinder to come a little loose evidenced by the just off center firing pin strike and the leading at the top right of the cone from the 4th bullet glancing it on the way down and out the barrel. At the third round the pressure may have even been enough to weaken or crack the cylinder wall between it and the 4th round. When the hammer dropped on the fourth and final round the bullet had been forced just enough into the casing to reach the critical point and the powder pressure spiked over the safe limit for the Taurus. Not enough to damage the far stronger Blackhawk but in excess of what the Taurus was designed for. This caused the cylinder to blow up and the top strap to come off. How the brass didn't get destroyed is a mystery in itself but stranger things have happened.

Too short rounds caused by a faulty caliper + light gun + spiky pressure + bullet setback just over the critical level = BOOM.
These rounds would be safe to shoot and I did shoot 20 or so in my BH with no problem. The Taurus Judge is not made for that or is a dedicated 45lc so is not the best to be shooting these rounds in the first place let alone top end even if they are within book.

How to not have this happen again:
In a gun not dedicated to 45LC like a Taurus Judge or a lesser gun than a BH, RH etc do not approach max loadings.
Check equipment for proper function before using the ammo. I threw out the digital caliper and am ordering a much nicer dial to back up the old RCBS Dial.
Use a Chronograph to check newly loaded rounds especially if you either have not tried that loading before and doubly so if approaching max.
Pay attention to the velocity itself and not just spikes or erratic readings.

All right, long winded but I think this is a plausible explanation based on the input from the members here and some research on my own part. Any Comments on this????

[tomme boy]

Nope!

[sparkyv]

Great job on the research; we can learn from such efforts. As others have said, glad you weren't hurt.

[jonp]

Nope!

Please contribute a little more than that. If you don't have anything else then find another playground, tomme boy

[wddodge]

Thank you very much for sharing this learning experience with us. This is the kind of discussion that takes us all to the next level of reloading. I'm just thankful that you're not bleeding anywhere.

I've got 2 digital scales that I check against each other and a beam that checks the digitals. Maybe it's time to get a manual caliper to check against the digital one that I always use.

Denny

[D Crockett]

I am ever so glad that you or anyone around you was not hurt. after reading this thread I can tell you that I will NOT be getting a Judge ever. it is just to risky for me or my son to shoot. thank you for all the research you have done on this problem. and who knows you just might have saved someone from getting hurt with one of these guns. D Crockett

[Rick Hodges]

It does seem that there was very little margin for error on your revolver for it to have come apart like that because of that much bullet setback. I echo everyone else that I am glad nobody hurt.

[BeeMan]

Which way do bullets move in brass under recoil?

[Plate plinker]

Seems plausible detective. As others have said glad you can continue intact.

[rking22]

Only problem I see is that recoil would tend to pull the bullet from the case not seat it deeper. Reason for not shooting 240s in a scandium 44 Smith, bullets go out of the case and tie it up.

[knifemaker]

I have a problem with you saying that the recoil from the previous round being fired forced the bullet further into the case on the next round. Everything I have been taught is that the opposite will happen. Recoil will cause a crimp jump forcing the bullet to exit the case mouth a small amount and in some cases tie up the cylinder if the overall length of the cartridge is equal to the cylinder length to begin with.
How about the cylinder jumping time and the bullet striking the cone off center while the rear portion of the bullet is still in the cylinder and causing a extreme pressure strike? Maybe why the brass case was not split ?

[dubber123]

Tomme boy knows boolits pull in revolvers, they don't go further in the case. The boolit is a heavy thing that wants to stay at rest, the case recoils away from it along with the rest of the gun. Only autos can have a bullet driven further in the case during the chambering cycle.

Your load just isn't that hot. I stated you had a metallurgical failure in the other thread, and that is still what I believe. The fact the case NEVER split is all the proof I need that this wasn't a typical over pressure revolver blow up. If the cylinder came unglued, but the piece of soft brass survived in reloadable condition, you had a firearm failure. I'm glad you are ok, guns are made every day.

[P Flados]

There are actually 2 items that do not fit completely in the simple/moderate overpressure explantion. The unruptured case and the imprint of the case head on the frame.

The extra 200 fps above expected velocity does argue for high pressures. However, the pressures that go with an extra 200 fps in a 45 colt are not any higher than a 357 mag or a 44 mag and these do not leave an imprint of the case head on the frame.

Having high pressure and a less than perfect heat treat could lead to the start of a split at the web between cylinders on shot 3. Having #4 go to full failure starting forward on the cylinder could work with the unruptured brass.

Getting back to the revese imprint of the brass headstamp on the frame. Brass is normally softer than steel. How could brass "imprint" into good steel with minimum damage to the brass? This sounds more like either very soft steel and/or there is something we are missing.

Regardless of what we have not figured out yet, JonP is correct that his loads were probably "hotter" than he intended. The second conclusion that seems evident now is that the Judge is no Ruger and probably does not need "hot" 45 LC ammo. Good reloaders all know that mixing potentially hot loads and guns that do not have the proven track record of being extra strong is "at risk". This is a message that most of us know, but we may not be as mindfull of as we should.
Lets all strive to take this to heart.

[country gent]

Do those calipers show any wear or damage? How do they check out over the range of the units full spectrum? If you have axcess to a set of gage blocks check them a 0 .5, 1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3, 3.5, 4, 4.5, 5, 5.5 and 6". Also check the depth measurement against the jaws. Ive seen the knife edges wear some over years of use but never that much. The above is to see if the calipers are off a certain amount or progressive.
Normally the recoil makes the revolver act as a bullet puller lengthening the rounds OAL not shortening them, sometimes to the point of tying up the cylinder.

[lightman]

I find it commendable that you are digging into this so seriously, and being so open minded to any error on your part. But, I'm not sure that I agree with your theory. If I'm doing the math correctly I see that you bullet was .035 of an inch deeper than you wanted to it be. I would not be worried about that, although I usually hold tighter tolerances in my loads. While your load was a little warm I'm not seeing this as a gross overload. I would however buy into the theory that your revolver may have fired without the cylinder being locked fully into the correct position. Please continue to stay in touch with us as you continue to dig into this.

[BeeMan]

Could the brass have not been destroyed because it did not see excessive pressure? Because something else gave way and relieved pressure before the brass yielded?

[dubber123]

In regards to the firing pin indent being off center, I believe Jon stated he needed a magnifying glass to tell in was "slightly" off center. Slop in the firing pin/firing pin channel and slop in lock up will produce small variances in where the pin indent will appear. For that matter I'd not be surprised to find all primer cup holes in brass are not perfectly centered, which would do the same thing. The forcing cone on a revolver gives you a good bit of leeway, and remember the nose of the boolit in this case was smaller by a good amount than the cone too, allowing for self centering to occur. I think it is highly unlikely enough misalignment could have occurred to cause the boolit to strike the frame, while still showing a near perfectly centered primer indent.

[BeeMan]

How much would seating 0.035 inch deeper in a 45 Colt case actually raise pressure , according to Quickload? I am thinking the Colt is pretty roomy, compared to something like a 9mm Luger where deep seating can cause a pressure spike. Anybody have Quickload and care to run the numbers?

[jeepyj]

Tomme boy knows boolits pull in revolvers, they don't go further in the case. The boolit is a heavy thing that wants to stay at rest, the case recoils away from it along with the rest of the gun. Only autos can have a bullet driven further in the case during the chambering cycle.

Your load just isn't that hot. I stated you had a metallurgical failure in the other thread, and that is still what I believe. The fact the case NEVER split is all the proof I need that this wasn't a typical over pressure revolver blow up. If the cylinder came unglued, but the piece of soft brass survived in reloadable condition, you had a firearm failure. I'm glad you are ok, guns are made every day.
I agree 100% with this post. Jonp sorry to disagree but I strongly feel that something just doesn't add up for me. Mainly I want to say I'm just glad your okay. Best of luck

[BeeMan]

Any name brand jacketed bullet is a good enough reference to check a dial caliper. Line up a few .451 bullets side by side and you can know if you are off more than a few thousandths in the neighborhood of typically revolver catridge overall lengths. Yes, gage blocks are nice to have, but not necessary.

[HangFireW8]

How much would seating 0.035 inch deeper in a 45 Colt case actually raise pressure , according to Quickload? I am thinking the Colt is pretty roomy, compared to something like a 9mm Luger where deep seating can cause a pressure spike. Anybody have Quickload and care to run the numbers?

With the Lee 452-252-SWC and 8.8gr Unique, going from 1.580" COAL and 17044PSI to 1.545" COAL yields 18159PSI.

[daniel lawecki]

I'm still leaning to a double charge or wrong powder.

[BeeMan]

Steel let go and brass did not even show normal signs of sealing in the chamber. Pressure, even over pressure, as applied to a normally dimensioned firearm in a typical manner is not the issue here.

[35remington]

What bothers me is that you have all the evidence of stratospheric pressure present based on the appearance of the blown up gun. By all appearances the pressure wasn’t a little too high for the gun.....it was WAY too high. Which is why I am questioning a metallurgical problem. Ruptures when the round is anywhere near standard pressure due to a metallurgical defect do not look like yours. Yours is a high pressure blowup. Really high pressure.

Pressures that are a little too high do not do to a gun what I see in your photos. Even your top strap is blown completely off, which means that cylinder blew a whole bunch. The rupture sheared off not one but multiple cylinder walls and blew the top strap clean off. A pressure event anywhere near standard pressure or even somewhat higher would not have done that.

Are all the cases accounted for? Is it possible the case you found was from one of the adjacent fired cylinders and the case that blew was lost in orbit?

That would be less contradictory. Your case appearance from what you say was the round in the blown up chamber makes no sense. What I said in the last paragraph does.

Your blown up gun and its extreme appearance says high pressure. That is the most important clue you have. Whatever happened was a huge event and not anywhere near standard pressure. Not even close.

[35remington]

I will throw in with double charge or wrong powder as well.

[dubber123]

What bothers me is that you have all the evidence of stratospheric pressure present based on the appearance of the blown up gun. By all appearances the pressure wasn’t a little too high for the gun.....it was WAY too high. Which is why I am questioning a metallurgical problem. Ruptures when the round is anywhere near standard pressure due to a metallurgical defect do not look like yours. Yours is a high pressure blowup. Really high pressure.

Pressures that are a little too high do not do to a gun what I see in your photos. Even your top strap is blown completely off, which means that cylinder blew a whole bunch.

Are all the cases accounted for? Is it possible the case you found was from one of the adjacent fired cylinders and the case that blew was lost in orbit?

That would be less contradictory. Your case appearance from what you say was the round in the blown up chamber makes no sense. What I said in the last paragraph does.

Your blown up gun and its extreme appearance says high pressure. That is the most important clue you have. Whatever happened was a huge event and not anywhere near standard pressure. Not even close.

I do agree here, my assessment is based entirely on that piece of brass. If it is indeed the one that was the fourth fired and the one that destroyed the gun that is. It actually looks more like one seen ADJACENT to a high pressure blow up, those tend to get beat up.

Does anyone know what a double charge should produce for pressure? If Jon is sure that is the case though, it sure doesn't look like any I have seen before.

Jon, you said this was from a new lot of Starline brass. Is there any way you can count it and see if a piece is missing? That would certainly change things.

[glockfan]

this story reminds me of a friend whose brand new savage smokeless powder rifle blew up in his hands on its second shot ; he lost a pinky in the process .

after analysis of the barrel material
,he claimed it was a rifle material dfect, and won its case against savage who paid 25k's and a rifle of his choice( he picked a 110BA)....

after further analysis , it appears that the barrel was displaying a too high level of manganese.....this metal is used-mixed with the steel to help the knifes cutting the riflings....he was convinced 100% it wasn't a double charge because he's a meticulous reloader ,and like he said, you don't want to reload this rifle while talking with friends around.

[starmac]

What bothers me is that you have all the evidence of stratospheric pressure present based on the appearance of the blown up gun. By all appearances the pressure wasn’t a little too high for the gun.....it was WAY too high. Which is why I am questioning a metallurgical problem. Ruptures when the round is anywhere near standard pressure due to a metallurgical defect do not look like yours. Yours is a high pressure blowup. Really high pressure.

Pressures that are a little too high do not do to a gun what I see in your photos. Even your top strap is blown completely off, which means that cylinder blew a whole bunch. The rupture sheared off not one but multiple cylinder walls and blew the top strap clean off. A pressure event anywhere near standard pressure or even somewhat higher would not have done that.

Are all the cases accounted for? Is it possible the case you found was from one of the adjacent fired cylinders and the case that blew was lost in orbit?

That would be less contradictory. Your case appearance from what you say was the round in the blown up chamber makes no sense. What I said in the last paragraph does.

Your blown up gun and its extreme appearance says high pressure. That is the most important clue you have. Whatever happened was a huge event and not anywhere near standard pressure. Not even close.

Couple that with the fact that the frame has an imprint of the headstamp, does lead one to believe that it was in fact very high pressure, and hard to believe that the headstamp would be imprinted with no high pressure signs on the brass.

[tomme boy]

45 colt brass can handle some extreme PSI. Much over 454 Casual. BUT, this is a gun failure. Taurus has a 70% return rate at a local dealer. He hates to sell them but people demand them. Even when he tells them they are junk. I was one. NEVER again.

I had a 357 with a 4'' barrel when I was 21. It was my first centerfire pistol. Could never get it to shoot very well. Sold it to a friend. He told me if I ever wanted it back I knew where it was. Come 15 years later I ran into him. He says hey I still have that pistol, you want it? Even gave it back to me for the same price. and the same box of bullets I game him.

Figured out why it would not shoot. Not rifling on the left side of the barrel! On the right side it was extremely deep and the barrel was not round at all. Called taurus and they said to send it in. Well they broke the frame getting the barrel off. And then told me OH WELL! We can give you a 20% discount on a new gun. Screw that.

[jonp]

The bullet(s) did not come out of the case and tie up the gun. The only other way they could have gone was in. All bullets are uniform but the other explanation is I could have seated one just that much deeper as a variance on seating depth which would have been enough to cause the explosion. Just as probably.
I'm discounting the double charge theory for the reasons above. Hand weigh, inspection under a light, moving each brass one at a time from the seating tray to the shell holder, placing each boolit into the casing. Just too many steps to miss one that was full almost to the brim. A double charge of Red Dot or Bullseye sure but not Unique

[EDG]

You double charged one round. That is all it takes.
You are not infallible.

Some rinky dinky problem like seating depth did not blow the top strap off of the frame. You had a gross over pressure event.

[Thundarstick]

(You double charged one round. That is all it takes.
You are not infallible.

Some rinky dinky problem like seating depth did not blow the top strap off of the frame. You had a gross over pressure event.)


This has been my thoughts from the get go. It only takes ONE! If not, you just got a bad gun. I've seen a super Red Hawk blown up the same way, a 44 mag, probably a double charge!

[6bg6ga]

If you double charged and you have been inspecting unless you are blind you would have caught it. Seating .035 deeper isn't going to blow it up. I chauk it up to the fact the Judge is a *** and that in itself is enough. I'm going with a metal problem based on my experiences of seeing Judges malfunction.

[dverna]

Getting the metal analyzed is the only way to put this to bed. White Labs may do that kind of work if you do not trust Taurus. But Taurus should do it at no charge.

[35remington]

What are the odds you had a metal problem through three sets of cylinder walls? You did not defect one chamber......you blew away three sets of cylinder walls and sent a top strap into orbit.

High pressure blowups look exactly like yours.

Exactly.

This did not happen at low pressure. The gun destruction is just too vast. Lower energy from a lower pressure event does not have the ability to cause the damage shown.

[Lloyd Smale]

I'm with the "NOPE" and rick. Seating your bullet a bit deap with that charge should not have blown up a gun that's proofed to double factory pressures. As to unique being spikey. Ive used unique for about 50 years now and never found it to be a bit peaky. Either a gun problem squibbed bullet in the barrel or the most likely answer, a double charge and a double charge in a basicialy weak design plain and simple. As to the appearance of the metal ill say this. Yes it looks almost like to much damage to be justified by a metal failure alone but I worked as a mill wright for 5 years and saw metal failure that didn't coincide with the level of the incident that caused it many times. Ive even seen steal incorrectly heat treated that about shattered like glass.
It does seem that there was very little margin for error on your revolver for it to have come apart like that because of that much bullet setback. I echo everyone else that I am glad nobody hurt.

[Wayne Smith]

As a point of reference - I once blew up my Colt M&P 41 Colt - and old gun. Cylinder remained whole, top strap remained, blew off the forcing cone and bulged the side plate. I had set my scale wrong, I had 15gr Bullseye in that case rather then the 5gr. that I thought I had. A double overload of Bullseye in a smaller case - and did less damage than your Judge.

To me that says the design and construction of the gun is the fundamental problem.

[jonp]

Ladies and Gents. What i am trying to do here is a form of a peer review of an experiment and conclusions. I am taking all comments and suggestions, researching and/or testing them then putting aside the unlikely or disproved ones, keeping the possible explanations and seperating those into speculation and something i can look at. The theory is then posted for review so holes can be poked into it. Since i can not test the firearm or know if it was faulty beyond examining it ie. Metal failure, i am assuming it was "put together" correctly and am concentrating on the ammunition which seems reasonable.
Feel free to shoot down any theory i come up with but explain why. A one word answer does not add anything. If i end up discounting the ammo as a cause then it was an unknown failure of the gun. If it is the ammo then what happened? The only thing i can be sure of at this point is a malfunction of the caliper resulting in all rounds being too short. What would this lead to and what results in firing it?
More in depth answer when i get home tonight. If i did not want to hear what the members thought i would not have posted in the first place. This sight is here to pick the brains of people who have "been there, done that"
The secondary reason for this thread is a reminder to all that no matter how much experience you have, you can go wrong. Equipment, firearm or reloading method. Be methodical, follow the books and be safe.
Thank you for your help in this.
Jonp

[35remington]

We also must acknowledge too much pressure disassembled the gun.

[jonp]

I'm still leaning to a double charge or wrong powder.

Wrong powder has been discarded through examining. Double charge has not but is unlikely. I will explain later why i dont think it was that or why the results lean away from that

[35remington]

Regardless of how the high pressure happened, that very high pressure was present you may regard as pretty much absolutely confirmed.

[jonp]

You double charged one round. That is all it takes.
You are not infallible.

Some rinky dinky problem like seating depth did not blow the top strap off of the frame. You had a gross over pressure event.
This might be where we end up. Gross pressure event without a doubt, i think but from a double charge or pressure spike due something else combined with gun design?
I have been unable, so far, to find a picture of a overpressure event causing cylinder destruction that did not also include brass destruction. The brass is dented inward not outward suggesting overpressure in front of the case not in it.

[dverna]

HP White Laboratories can pressure test your loads to determine how much a change in seating depth affected your loads. I think it will not show as much of a pressure difference as you may believe but it will answer that question definitively. They should also be able to test the double charge theory and render an opinion if a double charge would have caused the damage you sustained.

They will provide a quote so you can decide if it is worth it to you.

I suspect by now some of the most knowledgeable and experienced members on this site have responded either on this thread or by PM. It may be time obtain data to discount or support the opinions you have received.

One last item....have you contacted Taurus and have they made any suggestions?

[glockfan]

one thing is for sure : when playing with max loads,any kind of bullet set back is able to create an ''atificial''' double charge effect. in this case,i doubt the bullet went back into the case enough to create an ''artificial''' double charge,while anything is still possible.

[john.k]

My suggestion is that the cylinder failed firstly into the arbor hole ,thereby denting the case inward,and splitting the cylinder along the plane of weakness that caused the initial failure.There is a principle of crack propagagtion,whereby force applied into the cracking surface is many times the failure strength,and large ammounts of energy are applied into the propagating crack.This is the cause of catastrophic boiler explosions which turn 1/2" thick boiler plates inside out like they were origami.

[HangFireW8]

I have been unable, so far, to find a picture of a overpressure event causing cylinder destruction that did not also include brass destruction. The brass is dented inward not outward suggesting overpressure in front of the case not in it.

The headstamp and the inward dent are our biggest clues.

The headstamp mark could indicate a huge overpressure, but it could also indicate the base being driving backwards at high speed. High speed would require... clearance, room to move, time to pick up speed.

The inward dent... a little background. Bolt action rifles regularly take loads up to 62K MAP with zero problem. Yet when the brass uncorks near the head, it blows their receiver ring apart. Why is that? The vented gas actually has lower pressure because it's venting into a larger area. Yet the receiver ring shatters. Why? Because the pressure is applied across a larger area, that was not intended to take it. The receiver ring behind the breech and ahead of the locking lugs is actually rather thin, anyone who has tapped one for a scope has probably noticed this.

So getting back to the revolver, that inwardly dented brass case indicates gas was getting into places it shouldn't, because of a.) unknown event, and b.) the gasket (brass case) was compromised. We also have a revolver, which has failure (and pre-failure) modes that bolt actions and automatic handguns just don't have. So I think the answer is in there, somewhere.

[HangFireW8]

jonp, some questions: were the cylinders oiled, or dry? Likewise, were the cases still lubed from case lube or boolit lube, or dry and clean?

[35remington]

What is very obvious is the creased case did not come from the chamber that burst.

[NoZombies]

I don't mean to offend, and I appreciate the efforts you've gone to in trying to piece this together, but the type of failure you had was not from marginal overpressure, even if there was an issue with the metallurgy. This was a massive overpressure event, most likely caused by a double charge.

[Thundarstick]

Following these three threads, one thing I've missed being mentioned is the possibility of a detonation, where a partially blocked flash hole allows the bullet to be blown forward onto the cylinder/ throat, then the dispersed powder being ignited in a detonation.

[HABCAN]

I think the blown case is missing, GONE, and the one you show is an 'adjacent' one. I also think that it's a typical (??) Taurus structural metal failure. Further, I agree with 35Remington's posts. I may be wrong: I've just read the posts in this thread. I wasn't there.

[Bazoo]

I havent followed the other threads mentioned as I didnt come across them. Im glad you werent injured.

The simplest answer is normally the correct answer, and that points to a simple double charge. With the brass not acting as you would expect from a double charge... well, things happen. Imprinting of the headstamp is an indicator in the right direction.

I was pondering. Is it possible you might have had some foreign object in the case which increased capacity or raised the pressure? Maybe an empty case of a smaller caliber such as 9mm or 40 s&w. Is it possible that you had a 40 casing in your 45colt casing and then sizing the colt, punched through the flash hole of the 40, then, punched a hole in the 40's primer, and then popped out the 45's primer as normal? Not likely But.. its an idea I had.

[HangFireW8]

On Request, using QuickLoad...

Holding a Lee 452-252-SWC at 1.545" COAL:
17.6gr Unique gives 77240 PSI.
13.05gr Unique gives 40108 PSI


Holding an 8.8gr Unique charge steady, and reducing the Lee 452-252-SWC seating depth:
1.545" COAL gives 18159 PSI
1.285" (flush with case mouth) gives 36540 PSI
1.260" (below case moth) gives 40657 PSI
1.1" gives 160633 PSI (This is most likely wrong, see below)

Forum member and noted overpressure expert clarkm has noted to me in personal communication that for gross overloads and beyond-edge cases, QL tends to overestimate pressures... but it remains correct in noting that the pressure is an overload.

[tomme boy]

People! READ Hangfires post in post #46 very carefully. You will have your answer.

That chamber had a defect before the trigger was pulled.

[dubber123]

Jon, did you get as chance to count the new batch of Starline brass to see if one was missing? Every single thing about your incident mirrors every other high pressure blow up I have seen, EXCEPT that piece of brass. If you come up a piece short, and I'm beginning to think you will, you have your answer. The piece of brass that was involved with the blow up is still circling the earth along with your top strap.

Thank you HangFireW8 for running Quickload. That's more pressure than I was expecting, almost enough to uncork a 44 mag Ruger SBH. Plenty I'm betting to do a Taurus in.

[HangFireW8]

You're welcome.

Now I'm re-reading my post #46 looking for the answer. :)

Jonp the ball is in your court, what's the word on brass count, location of the inward blown brass, also my questions on lubed chambers/cases?

[buckwheatpaul]

jonp you did a great job and I think you hit the nail on the head....just glad you were not hurt and your pictures and others suggestions plus your investigation should serve as a warning to watch your components and tools.......Paul

[dubber123]

The bullet(s) did not come out of the case and tie up the gun. The only other way they could have gone was in. All bullets are uniform but the other explanation is I could have seated one just that much deeper as a variance on seating depth which would have been enough to cause the explosion. Just as probably.
I'm discounting the double charge theory for the reasons above. Hand weigh, inspection under a light, moving each brass one at a time from the seating tray to the shell holder, placing each boolit into the casing. Just too many steps to miss one that was full almost to the brim. A double charge of Red Dot or Bullseye sure but not Unique

Jon, there just isn't a possibility of one getting driven into the case, it's just simply the opposite of how it works. It COULD have gotten pulled out, and given the length of the cylinder, you could probably stack two in front of the case mouth and still not tie up the gun.

There has been some mention of seating depth, but unless the brass was SIGNIFIGANTLY trimmed, your seating depth was fine, as you stated it was seated to a crimping groove which puts you in the safe ball park as far as seating depth with the boolit you were using.

[reddog81]

So getting back to the revolver, that inwardly dented brass case indicates gas was getting into places it shouldn't, because of a.) unknown event, and b.) the gasket (brass case) was compromised. We also have a revolver, which has failure (and pre-failure) modes that bolt actions and automatic handguns just don't have. So I think the answer is in there, somewhere.

Cylinder steel is stronger than brass. What part of the cylinder can't handle the pressure of a 45 Colt load? The cylinder in question blew through 3 chambers and took off the top strap.

I agree that the dented brass was probably from an adjacent charge hole. It's my understanding that the top strap was never found - I'm guessing the brass from the charge in question also went flying.

FWIW there's no way a .45 Colt bullet seated deeper into the case under recoil. Revolvers act like a bullet puller and the bullet loosens from the case if there's any movement. Additionally .035 is not going to have any substantial effect on a .45 Colt load. Look at the bearing surface length of various molds they routinely vary by more than .035.

[35remington]

The more complicated one makes an event in order to explain it, the less plausible it becomes.

For the reason that multiple implausible things happening simultaneously become more unlikely with every layer of complexity added.

The simple fact, which is the best fact, is that very high pressure was involved. Discard any theories that do not include that as a central premise. Then look for the least complicated reason high pressure would occur. Better analysis is the result.

[35remington]

Let me expand on the last post a little. In my other life I moderate a reloading forum and we get to dissect our fair share of “unexplainable” blowups.

Keep in mind I am NOT suggesting all these behaviors were exhibited here.

But this is how it often goes.

Firstly, the idea that the handloader made a mistake is examined and usually discarded by the person analyzing the blowup. What we do know for sure is that person and no one else made the ammo. That is food for thought. The subsequent blown up gun and the person making the ammo have a direct relationship.

Second, in analyzing the cause of the kaboom, almost invariably multiple factors happening concurrently are blamed for the cause of the burst gun. As I said before, in reality if multiple things have to happen to blow the gun up the less likely they are to happen concurrently. And the less likely they are as a plausible or probable cause.

The simple ideas have to be run to the ground first. Adding layers of complexity adds layers of improbability.

One guy, writing for Handloader’s Digest on the subject of burst guns, entitled the piece, “It Isn’t Always Handloads......But That’s The Way to Bet.”

In all fairness, jon acknowledges he was using handloads and has tried to dissect it from that angle. The way to bet is that something was wrong with the handload and not with the gun.

Kudos to him for approaching it from that angle, as most people in my experience don’t want to accept they had anything to do with any problems, but I think a simpler rather than a more complex explanation as was found in the first post of this thread is much more likely.

[MaryB]

Defective cylinder vented sideways into adjacent cylinder and it also went off from the pressure spike and the bullet hit the frame stopping in the cylinder. You now have double the normal pressure from 2 events and the cylinder exploded... crack in the cylinder wall into an adjacent cylinder. I would look for gas cutting between the exploded cylinders...

[snuffy]

From a post by P. Flados on the first thread;

"The other item not discussed is the cylinder bore. The judge is intended for 45 Colt or 410. I wonder if this chamber can allow a bullet to get a little cocked and try to jam."

It's difficult to see just how the chambers were cut in this either/or revolver. Trying to make a gun do two things as different as a .410 and a 45 colt is hard to do.

I don't have a Taurus judge, but I do have a *** Comanche single shot in .410/45 colt. Capable of firing 3" .410 shells it has a LOT of free bore in front of the 45 colt chamber. The O.D. of a sample .410 factory load is .455 on the plastic body and .470 on the metal head. A long travel in a loose I.D. dimension before entering any forcing cone. I would think that would result in LESS pressure than a standard chamber. Assuming a .452 sized lead boolit, it would allow gas passage around the boolit. Also the possibility of a double bump in pressure curves. A hangfire could result because of the loose chamber not allowing the Unique to get all burning, to be followed by the boolit hitting the forcing cone. NOW the powder all burns with a bore obstruction. Whammo!

Was this Taurus a 3"? I know they made one in 2.5".

Accuracy is non-existent in my Comanche SS when using 45 colt, the bore, chamber, a rifling looks awful. The trigger maxes out my Lyman trigger pull gauge, the trigger actually cocks the hammer further as it's pulled through it's long rough pull. As a 3" .410 it's useful in that it comes with a choke that is to be used when firing .410 to stop the wad from spinning to improve patterns. It would kill a grouse at perhaps 15 yards.

[rking22]

Just some random thoughts here. You are flirting with the top end of design pressures for the firearm in question. The chamber design has very large throats for a 45 Colt so there is some pressure loss , and lack of guidance. The VERY long cylinder allows the bullet to be at notably higher velocity when it engages the forcing cones, with the lack of guidance. This is impact, could be the reason for reports of frame stretching with this design, 45/ 410 and especially 3 in 410. The smooth void in the top strap described is a casting defect ( I spent 10 years engineering in a precision foundry). This defect at a high stress location is a concern. I feel this is a fatigue failure due in part to the excessive velocity at the forcing cone by the 18k psi load in combination with the long acceleration run up of the long cylinder with little guidance of the bullet. When a rupture starts the expanding gas does much more damage than anyone expects.
Question, are all 4 rods of fired brass and the unfired rnd accounted for? Could you post a pic of the 5 and the cylinder remains together? The "undamaged " brass is a big question.
Point I am raising is that the bullet impacting the forcing cone off center becomes in effect a bore obstruction due to the higher than normal velocity at cylinder exit. This caused a rupture at the bullet base. Front of cylinder , split propagated to the rear venting Gass and leaving the case in better than expected condition. In short, a bore obstruction at the forcing cone.

[Lloyd Smale]

johnp id have to say that most here agree that although this might have been a few problems working together that one problem was there for sure and that's severe overpressure. I bullet seated to deep or a grain or two to much powder might have done nothing to a strong gun and at most bulged the cylinder of a weak gun. Something REALLY over pressure happened here and happened in a gun unlike a large frame ruger that had not a lot of leeway in loading over book pressures. I'm with 35 rem though. If you have to overthink it and really dig for an answer your probably wrong. 99 times out of a 100 when a gun blows up its an overload or obstructed bore. in my experience through the years watching this kind of thing even an obstructed barrel in a revolver rarely cause a cylinder to blow apart. the cylinder gap usually relieves a lot of the overpressure and you might ring a barrel or bulge a cylinder but not turn it into a grenade.

[jonp]

Thank you everyone for your insightful comments, questions and suggestions. Thanks to all who pm'd me with lengthy, very informative msgs and the ones that emailed me directly. Thanks to HangFireW8 for answering the questions about pressure via Quickload.
As many pointed out, the fly in the ointment was the brass. 35 Rem said "that brass makes no sense" (sic) and he is right. It didn't. I remember looking at the brass in one hand with the revolver in the other and saying almost the exact thing. " What the ??? This is impossible". How do you blow up a cylinder without blowing up the brass?
This point alone had me looking in other directions and availing myself of the combined knowledge of the fine men and women on this site. But, the brass still bothered me. I kept going back to it no matter the explanations I and others came up for it. The events suggested a double charge or pressure spike blowing up the gun and the brass should have been blown outward not creased inward.
Finally, a couple of more comments by Rem35 and dubber123 were more than I could stand on this point so back out to the firing line for another search.

BINGO

Over 30yrds away behind a heatpump at a 90 degree angle from the firing point there was the offending brass blown to smithereens. The top strap is still unaccounted for. All of the brass I picked up in the general vicinity were the correct number but one must have been a case overlooked from previous target practice. I looked in an area, found the right number of brass with a quick look around seeing no more and assumed I had the brass. This explains the mysterious unexploded brass.

So, I'm going to assume the gun, although a marginal design, was not to blame and the entire matter lies on either a double load or a pressure overspike caused by a too deeply seated bullet on top of a near max load. I am going to discard the too deep bullet theory based on a couple of things. All of the remaining rounds were evenly seated. Short because of the malfunctioning caliper but heavily crimped and uniform in length. Could I have seated one too short? Yes but HangfireW8 answers just how deep I would have had to seat one to go far enough overpressure to blow a cylinder. No way I would have missed a bullet seated below the casemouth and with the heavy crimp it was very unlikely the bullet could have moved backwards that amount. It would have had to shave the entire top band off of the bullet to do that. Hard to fathom under the uniform recoil and velocities I tested the rest at not to mention the very uniform length although short. Even at the length they ended up at, they were still safe rounds in that gun pressure wise as Dusty explained in a great and in depth PM.

john.k has an explanation for the creased brass and is one i considered but it's just unlikely to have happened and the missing exploded brass negates that argument for me.

An obstruction in either the barrel, cone or cylinder does not work. The barrel was undamaged, the cone also and an obstruction in the cylinder would have either bound it up and prevented it from turning or just rattled around in it as these were the first loads from a freshly cleaned gun. As lloyd points out, not only is there a large cylinder gap but also all of that space from the extra long cylinder to relieve pressure. The off center primer strike and leading at the cone were clues but red herrings. The rounds were hot for this design and most likely by the third one cause a little looseness in the cylinder and the leading was caused by a slightly off center hit to the cone but as was pointed out, this is the forcing cones job. This was not the cause for the cylinder to fail.

Final Theory: Despite my multiple layers of safety in loading these near max rounds I double charged one. It is the most likely and easiest explanation. The proof is that all other explanations have been explored, researched by me and others and explained away in a manor satisfactory to me. The only other one that may be possible in my view is a failure of the cylinder itself due to faulty metallurgy. I am not going to incur the expense of sending it off for testing that would cost several times the value of the revolver so that is just going to have to remain up in the air.

Thank you to everyone for your insightful and helpful comments. I hope this exercise is useful to others in the future as a means to explain what happened should such an event unfortunately occur to them and how to approach figuring it out. For me, I'm going to hang the revolver and exploded brass case in front of my reloading bench as a reminder to be extra careful when reloading and double so when approaching a max load using any other pistol than a Ruger Blackhawk.

[ShooterAZ]

Well if it's any consolation, I double charged a case in a Kimber 1911. The gun survived, but the grips were splinted into my hands, the magazine floorplate blew out, and I got peppered in the face with hot fragments. ALWAYS wear glasses! (I was) The only lasting damage was to my pride. This was done right after I bought my Dillon 550 decades ago. I learned a serious lesson, and now have a light over my press and inspect every single case before seating a boolit.

[FISH4BUGS]

I have double charged two guns in my life. One was totaled. That was a S&W 3914 9mm. I sent it to S&W with what remained of the gun thinking it was a gun failure, and they concluded it was a double charge. I guess they felt sorry for me, and sold me direct a new 3914 for something like $200.
The other time was a S&W 76 9mm submachine gun. It blew out the magazine and broke the face off the bolt. Lucky for me they are built like tanks and no other damage was done.
When I retraced my steps on the Dillon 550, I realized I had sized and decapped a military brass, and when I tried to seat the primer it would not seat because of the primer pocket crimp. Rather than clear the entire press, and rotate everything out, I simply absentmindedly replaced the brass with another and pulled the handle again. Instant double charge.
I would have sworn I did not make a mistake. I had been casting and reloading for 40 years! It can happen to the best of us.
Now if anything happens in the loading process, I clear the press before doing anything. I have slowed down and become very methodical.

[JBinMN]

jonp,

Glad to hear that you have come to a final conclusion, even though the circumstances were not so good.

One thing I got out of your last post with the folks helping you in the background thru PM & email, is sad to me...

When folks know about how to do something, or solve a problem, etc., & then keeping that info to themselves, or in some small group, rather than sharing with the rest of us here at Cast Boolits. Gunloads forum, so we can all learn from what others know, goes against the intent of the forum itself. The intent to share knowledge.
Why have the forum at all, if the answers or solutions are not shared with others,but only privy to those who keep the info to themselves?

I also think it is a bit selfish, since if everyone just passed on pertinent info just thru PMs, email, or both, & not out in the forum where folks could learn from it, there is no reason to post anything to share here.

Don't think I'll say much more about it here, but it sure is a disappointment, IMO. Might have learned more but for the "insider" info not shared... Kind of "sticks in my craw" about that...

Thanks! for sharing YOUR situation here though, so we all might learn from it, &Thanks! to the others who posted Here, out in the forum, to try to help out.
I learned some things from it anyway.

[Smoke4320]

Jonp i salute you for first admitting you had a gun blowup and then honestly working thru the cause. Keeping us all informed along the way.
We need these constant reminders that what we do is dangerous.

[rl69]

Thank you for your posts. I admire the way you went about all this again thank you.

One thing that doesn't make sense to me how brass imprinted on steal ?

[35remington]

Yes, thanks for sharing freely and taking a reasoned analytical approach.

I am not perfect myself. Far from it.

I am pretty sure jon has shared all the relevant angles and insight he has received. His exhaustive analysis through three threads here kept everyone up to date, and I don’t think anything was left on the table in terms of unshared information that was relevant to solving the problem.

[BNE]

Jonp i salute you for first admitting you had a gun blowup and then honestly working thru the cause. Keeping us all informed along the way.
We need these constant reminders that what we do is dangerous.


I agree. Thank you for not letting your ego get in the way of helping the rest of us.

[dubber123]

Thanks Jon, I appreciate your honesty. :) The blown up piece of brass makes a lot more sense than the one with the crease!!

It is contrary to how many seasoned loaders do it, but I always charge a case and immediately seat a boolit. I'm not saying this is the best way, but I do it that way because the few times I did the loading block method, I could just see myself making a mistake and doubling one. I just had an uneasy feeling, and never trusted myself to use that method. 30+ years later, I still don't :)

I'm glad you got it figured out, and you never got hurt in the process. Now go buy another gun and get back to shooting.

[P Flados]

As noted, JonP did us all a great service with the open and honest approach at "getting a reasonable answer" for the event.

I will also point out that those that prompted him to go back and look for the failed brass deserve recognition. This was the prompt that led to finding the "bad input" to the "it does not add up" that we all missed at first.

For all of us, using methods to avoid a double charge (or any kind of significant overcharge / wrong powder) is something to take seriously.

JonP went to extra efforts to measure out precise charges, but with using this extra efforts it may have been harder to focus on the "simple" process of getting one charge per case.

I gave up measuring each charge a long time ago. Instead I decided to adopted practices that focus more on increased confidence that each and every round with no exception was loaded "ok".

For me, this starts with only having the correct powder "at the bench" and getting the measure set right (first based on a stem index number, and then double check with a reliable old fashion balance scale). For the "correct powder" part, I have also kept my powder selection such that with one exception (Promo & Unique) all of my "normal use" powders are adequately different in appearance. For the Promo vs Unique I have some extra "double check" measures in place to ensure no substitution problems.

The above is followed by a systematic and focused dump into the cases in a loading tray and then a visual inspection of the individual powder depth in each case.

As long as I am diligent with each item above, I expect zero surprises. Posting and reading here probably helps me quite a bit with regular reminders on the need to stay diligent. I hope everyone keeping up with this thread takes a moment to reflect on "is there anything I need to do different".

[MT Gianni]

Glad this is solved. I used to keep a bulged Kimber bbl around my reloading bench as a reminder that Unique can bridge and lack of vigilance on a Lee turret is harmful.

[Smoke4320]

the giveaway to me was the headstamp imprint on the gun.. Seen this before and it was a factory overload on a 6.5 Grendel
you could read the "Hornady 6.5 Grendel " imprint on the AR bolthead ..

Just glad you are Ok and we have come to a good conclusion of the issue

[square butte]

Jon - Should you decide to modify your reloading procedures ( other than the just being extra careful stated above ) - I and others may benefit benefit from what you come up with. I have had that same uneasy feeling when using a loading block that dubber123 describes.

[bosterr]

Since this thread may have run it's course, I'll ask this question. My wife inherited from her Dad a stainless Judge. I don't know if he ever fired it and we haven't either. In his gun cabinet there was also a box of 25 cartridges. The box reads "Winchester Bonded PDXI" 225 gr. JHP Bonded Personal Defense Protection. But only 15 are the JHP and the 10 others are lead round nose and look like factory loaded as well. I got a rough chamber wall thickness measurement with a dial caliper. The breech end measured around .055 and the front end measured around .070. After jonp's problem, I'm now leary of shooting these rounds through it. Perhaps the JHP could be on the hot side? Perhaps I should try to persuade her to trade it off?

[dverna]

Jon - Should you decide to modify your reloading procedures ( other than the just being extra careful stated above ) - I and others may benefit benefit from what you come up with. I have had that same uneasy feeling when using a loading block that dubber123 describes.

Easy...

Charge case with powder using a good powder measure and seat bullet before putting the case down. Check the powder measure every 50-100 rounds when you start a new box of pistol ammo. Never load to maximum....if your measure throws .2 gr over max, you are still safe. But even being .2 gr over max is not going to be catastrophic.

When loading critical rifle ammunitioin and I weigh every charge on a Charge Master that has been verified using a check weight. If you are using a scale, check that the settings have not been bumped on a regular basis.

Inspecting every case sitting in a loading block is not going to do it. Eventually you will miss one...I know...I have been there.

[dverna]

Since this thread may have run it's course, I'll ask this question. My wife inherited from her Dad a stainless Judge. I don't know if he ever fired it and we haven't either. In his gun cabinet there was also a box of 25 cartridges. The box reads "Winchester Bonded PDXI" 225 gr. JHP Bonded Personal Defense Protection. But only 15 are the JHP and the 10 others are lead round nose and look like factory loaded as well. I got a rough chamber wall thickness measurement with a dial caliper. The breech end measured around .055 and the front end measured around .070. After jonp's problem, I'm now leary of shooting these rounds through it. Perhaps the JHP could be on the hot side? Perhaps I should try to persuade her to trade it off?

Factory ammunition will be safe. But you need to verify it is factory and not reloaded.

[Traffer]

Great Job! Pretty darn comprehensive analysis here. It helps me (a noob) to see how complex variables can add up to disaster. Makes me consider being more careful and thorough in my own experiments.

[reddog81]

Jon - Should you decide to modify your reloading procedures ( other than the just being extra careful stated above ) - I and others may benefit benefit from what you come up with. I have had that same uneasy feeling when using a loading block that dubber123 describes.

Get an auto indexing progressive press. You only touch the brass once and it advances the brass from station to station automatically each time you pull the handle. It's still possible to screw up the process, but once everything is setup the process is so straight forward you could teach a 5 year old to do it.

[HangFireW8]

jonp,

Thank you for your honesty and forthrightness, I was happy to help. And, since I think I failed to say it, I'm glad you're OK.


jonp,
One thing I got out of your last post with the folks helping you in the background thru PM & email, is sad to me...


JB, I wouldn't be too upset. Jonp pinged me with some QL pressure requests, which would have been an extra pair of information-free posts in the threads. Everything as a result of that conversation went into the thread.

Another member and I discussed some possibilities and ideas that just can't be proven, and thus would have lead nowhere. Looking over the threads I believe all these ideas were actually mentioned, if not driven to ground. If I thought we had something definite, or even probable it would have gone in the thread.

[Traffer]

Wow I am surprised at how many people do not seem to have read your explanation. And even more surprised at how folks are coming at you with the same 'ol same 'ol...you did it, your fault accusations. Hang in there, I believe your explanation is not only plausible but very carefully thought out and well explained. It makes perfect sense that the mystery of no cases ruptured is involved with the crack in the cylinder after the third or forth shots. Thus weakening the cylinder to allow it to blow (and blow the back strap) with a relatively normal load.

[dubber123]

Wow I am surprised at how many people do not seem to have read your explanation. And even more surprised at how folks are coming at you with the same 'ol same 'ol...you did it, your fault accusations. Hang in there, I believe your explanation is not only plausible but very carefully thought out and well explained. It makes perfect sense that the mystery of no cases ruptured is involved with the crack in the cylinder after the third or forth shots. Thus weakening the cylinder to allow it to blow (and blow the back strap) with a relatively normal load.


You are aware he found the blown case aren't you? :)

[MaryB]

Thanks Jon, I appreciate your honesty. :) The blown up piece of brass makes a lot more sense than the one with the crease!!

It is contrary to how many seasoned loaders do it, but I always charge a case and immediately seat a boolit. I'm not saying this is the best way, but I do it that way because the few times I did the loading block method, I could just see myself making a mistake and doubling one. I just had an uneasy feeling, and never trusted myself to use that method. 30+ years later, I still don't :)

I'm glad you got it figured out, and you never got hurt in the process. Now go buy another gun and get back to shooting.



Loading for accuracy I do a tray of 50 at a time. I have a dowel marked with the powder charge and I check each case by dropping it in to make sure it is at the line(+- but close, you will compact it a little sometimes). Only then do I seat and crimp the boolit.

Running the press in turret mode I do light check each case.

Hmmm... I wonder... if I can design a sensitive enough laser measuring tool to read powder levels but not cost a mint...

[Traffer]

You are aware he found the blown case aren't you? :)


Well there I go again, not taking all facts into account. Indeed I had not read all of the posts and missed the vital post about discovering the blown brass and the following statements. I apologize to the entire forum for doing the same thing as I accused many folks here of doing (jumping to conclusions about people). Oh what a fool I am.

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't know how many rounds ive loaded on 550s in my life but its defineately in the hundreds of thousands. I damaged exactly one gun in my life because of to hot of a load and that was a small framed ruger that I got some large frame ruger loads mixed up with. My take on it is anyone who cannot safely run a 550 sure should be loading on ANY auto indexing progressive press either. Same guy is going to dump a double charge in his loading blow with this powder dump because hes the guy that doesn't pay attention. Yup mistakes are made. Everyone can screw up but its sure not the machine that causes it its the operator. I might agree that a sloppy idiot loading on a 550 might tend to screw up more then a perfectly running progressive press. But not many progressive presses run perfectly and none I know run perfectly with an idiot at the controls. At least not for long.
Get an auto indexing progressive press. You only touch the brass once and it advances the brass from station to station automatically each time you pull the handle. It's still possible to screw up the process, but once everything is setup the process is so straight forward you could teach a 5 year old to do it.

[EDG]

One of the best ways to stay out of trouble is to use a powder that completely fills the case with the load that you want to use.
If it is impossible to over charge then it is tough to blow up the gun.

[jonp]

Wow I am surprised at how many people do not seem to have read your explanation. And even more surprised at how folks are coming at you with the same 'ol same 'ol...you did it, your fault accusations. Hang in there, I believe your explanation is not only plausible but very carefully thought out and well explained. It makes perfect sense that the mystery of no cases ruptured is involved with the crack in the cylinder after the third or forth shots. Thus weakening the cylinder to allow it to blow (and blow the back strap) with a relatively normal load.

This is a possibility of what happened but is explained in a previous post as to why I am going with the double charge and not this one. No worries.

Additional Steps To Avoid Double Charge

The question was asked as to how I am going to change my reloading technique to avoid a double charge in the future. I am going to add a step or two

After inspecting and sizing the brass I prime with an RCBS hand primer. At this point I am going to place each primed case into the loading block casehead up. After priming 50 I'll run my finger over the primers checking for seating depth.

After weighing the charge or in the case of target loads throwing a charge with my Lyman 55, I will place the round into a 2cd tray case mouth up. By going from case mouth down with empties to case mouth up for loaded i can lesson the chance of double charging. After the 50 rounds have powder in them I will run a light over them for a final visual check before seating a bullet.

After seating a bullet I will check for length with a dial caliper. Satisfied with the depth I will lay each completed round on the bench and when done 2 or 3, I will inspect for depth and then crimp in a second press as a seperate step. I will then shoot over a chronograph looking for velocity spikes, erratic changes or a different reading than expected. If you remember in the thread, when I ran the completed rounds over the chrony the velocities were 150-200fps over what was expected. This led me inspect the rounds and at a suggestion check the equipment where I found the malfunctioning digital caliper which allowed all of the rounds to be seated deeper than wanted. When satisfied I will load the rest, lay them on the bench and roll them back and forth looking for anything appearing off. Measure a few at random for length, crimp and I am done.

These additional steps should reduce the chance of a double charge as far as humanly possible.

[rosewood]

I missed the original post. But I have a thought, what if this particular piece of brass was too long and when chambering in that cylinder, the brass was into the step requiring much greater pressure to release the bullet therefore raising the pressure drastically? Do you remember if any of those rounds had to be forced into the chamber?

My original thought is a double charge also.

Rosewood

[JBinMN]

jonp,

A suggestion that will certainly almost remove the possibility of an over charge is simply to have the seating die in the press as you charge with powder, then since you not only threw the charge in, you immediately seat the bullet ( and crimp, or as I do, crimp in the next step). If you know you have put the correct amount of powder in the round and then seal it off, you do not have the chance of overloading unless you over loaded to start with, or, as has happened to me, you drop or spill powder while placing a charged case without seated bullet/boolit in the block. The only other way would be if you had a "bridged" powder charge in your measure, that only allowed for a partial to fill one case& then the next round being charged gets its "set" charge & the additional " bridged" powder as well, making a reduced charge in one & an over charge in another.

Personally, I do this either when I am weighing each charge after throwing, or just trusting the measure without weighing each charged amount. I seat the boolit & then depending on which press I am using, ( single stage or turret) I either place the seated round in a block until I have all of the boolits seated & in the block to go to crimp ( with single stage) & there is no way I can get an undercharged or bridged/spilled over charge, since I have sealed off the case. Then I change to the crimp die in the single stage & then complete the loading by crimping & placing into the container I am using to store the completed rounds. If I am crimping at the same time as seating, then I have seated & sealed off the correct powder & crimped so that round can be placed in the container being used for completed rounds.

If I am using the turret, I put in the charge, immediately seat the boolit, then turn the turret to the crimp die & crimp, then remove the completed round & place into the storage container. I see no way of over or under charging since I am observing the powder as I go from powder measure to seating & thus almost completely reduce the chance for undercharge or over charge.

Even if I get interrupted during the process of reloading, I complete a round & stop knowing that any seated boolit is sealed with the correct amount of powder & that I can resume reloading after the interruption & have a clear head & know that up to where I restart I have safe rounds.

I hope I said that well enough & perhaps it might help ya out. I use that method regardless of whether I am weighing each round as I go, or just checking every 10 or so.

Hope that helped anyway.

G'Luck
:)

P.S. - I am going on little sleep as I type this, so if I am a bit long winded & rambling, I blame that , as well as if I was not concise in how I typed this up. Just forget it if it is confusing. LOL As I said, I am just trying to help yo do something that will pretty much eliminate any over/under charge situation in the future, if you are diligent in your observation of the powder as ya go & then seal off the charge immediately.

;)

[dubber123]

I missed the original post. But I have a thought, what if this particular piece of brass was too long and when chambering in that cylinder, the brass was into the step requiring much greater pressure to release the bullet therefore raising the pressure drastically? Do you remember if any of those rounds had to be forced into the chamber?

My original thought is a double charge also.

Rosewood The firearm in question also fires 410 shot shells, there is an extremely long chamber in front of a 45 Colt case, no chance of even the longest of 45 Colt brass making it to a cylinder throat.

[rosewood]

The firearm in question also fires 410 shot shells, there is an extremely long chamber in front of a 45 Colt case, no chance of even the longest of 45 Colt brass making it to a cylinder throat.
Just for giggles, I tried to put a 454 case in my judge (no I wasn't gonna shoot it, just checking to see if it could be done by mistake). It will not chamber, there is some sort of stop or taper that prevents the 454 from chambering.

Rosewood

[Thundarstick]

I made this comment back at post #50 that was not explored.

"Following these three threads, one thing I've missed being mentioned is the possibility of a detonation, where a partially blocked flash hole allows the bullet to be blown forward onto the cylinder/ throat, then the dispersed powder being ignited in a detonation."

There is a thread going on in the Single Shot Guns sub forum http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?358573-Let-s-Blow-Up-Some-Rifles-Boys
Where the idea I was speaking of is being discussed. Perhaps not a detonation, but a barrel obstruction when the bullet is blown up to, or into, that long chamber/ throat before the main charge ignites leading to a huge pressure spike before the bullet can start moving again, thus causing a catastrophic failure. Was this dismissed out of hand, or is it just unprovable?

[6bg6ga]

I hate to throw salt on the wound but the Judge is a very poor example of a firearm. Its more of a novelty than anything else. Buy something decent and move on.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup two truths here. the judge is not a premium gun and if you are one that will double charge with a manual index press you shouldn't be loading period!
I hate to throw salt on the wound but the Judge is a very poor example of a firearm. Its more of a novelty than anything else. Buy something decent and move on.

[jmort]

^^^^
I agree that the Judge is not a Ruger Super Redhawk strength wise, but disagree with the balance as it relates to these threads. Everyone makes mistakes. I do not believe the OP is to quit reloading based on your opinion. Seems like you are pronouncing judgement unnecessarily is this matter.

[6bg6ga]

^^^^
I agree that the Judge is not a Ruger Super Redhawk strength wise, but disagree with the balance as it relates to these threads. Everyone makes mistakes. I do not believe the OP is to quit reloading based on your opinion. Seems like you are pronouncing judgement unnecessarily is this matter.

I'm going to jump in with Lloyd on this one. If you can't keep your head in the game you run the chance that your going to blow your head off and as a result you shouldn't be reloading. If you insist on reloading then you need to go back to square number 1 and start all over again under supervision. The OP was lucky this time and I'm a firm believer that luck doesn't come around the second time.

Now, jmort maybe the reloading incident hit home for you because you might have had a similar incident? Logic would dictate that if you can't reload properly its time to get out. The other option would be to go back to a single stage until such time as you could refrain from making major mistakes that very well could end your life.

[jmort]

I have never made a charging error. It is not a question of a post “hitting home”
It is the problem with posts that make no sense.
Since I am here on double secret probation, I will let you carry on without further comment other than to say I strongly disagree with your post as it relates to the OP.

[Thundarstick]

I still see no mention of/ if the flash hole may have been obstructed. I say this because in my youth shot gun primers where fairly anemic, and were reloaded a bunch of shot shells. Once in a while you'd get a hang fire or the main charge wouldn't ignite at all and the shot would roll out the muzzle. Eventually we learned that when you throw your empties in the game bag with the birds you get a feather in the hull. The feather don't get knocked out with the primer and would cover the flash hole thus hindering the ignition of the powder. I got in the habitof blowing through every hull after depriming and was shocked at how many feathers I'd blow out! When the 209 printers came out I don't think I ever had slow fires again. If noticed a similar thing can happen with vibrator media becoming lodged in the flash hole, and every piece of brass has to be inspected. Just pondering.