Taurus Judge Blew Up With My Handloads. Opinions?

[jonp]

Today a Stainless Steel Taurus Judge blew up with my handloads. The cylinder split and the top strap is missing.

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The handloads were the following:
New 45lc Starline brass, unfired
Wolf LPP from a box that I'd used 300 or so out of already with no problem
8.8gr Unique each load hand dipped then trickled onto a GemTech 250
250gr Lead Boolit mix of commercial Missouri and my own cast all weighed within 2-3 grs of each other
My homemade lube (Johnsons, Alox etc)
Crimped in the first groove
Loaded with a Lee Die and all are the same length

The target showed perfect round holes for all rounds including the one that blew the gun up. IE: No keyholing and all exited the barrel. The barrel shows no bulge, bend or anything. Looks fine
The ejection rod is bent and the cylinder is opened on one chamber and split in half. There is a perfect print of 45 LC on the face. The Primers show no sign of over pressure. No piercing, cratering, run, back out etc. The brass is also fine except for the dents of course. No holes, splits etc. 3 rounds were fired previous and were vigorous but fired ok. Accuracy was all over the place, the 4th blew up. I have fired similar rounds in both of my Blackhawks with no problems and the book says these are near max but not over so should be fine.

Any opinions? Guesses? Conjectures?

[richhodg66]

Wow! That load should have been safe in any .45 Colt handgun. If you're sure it wasn't an accidental double charge, there had to be some defect in the gun.

[Omega]

First, hope you're ok. Second, how full is that case? If it wasn't a double charge, my next WAG would be a S.E.E., that is one serious looking demo job to be something else.

[jonp]

First, hope you're ok. Second, how full is that case? If it wasn't a double charge, my next WAG would be a S.E.E., that is one serious looking demo job to be something else.

No double charges but I'm pulling the other 95 and weighing them. I hand poured each round and trickled as I said. When I was done I looked into the cases with a light to see if anything looked out of the ordinary but all were the same level and 17gr of Unique in a 45lc would be pretty obvious I'm thinking. The Unique is from a 1lb bottle I've loaded rounds with and is 1-2yrs old. I always smell the powder and look at it before loading and it was/is fine.

[Blanket]

are you sure you had Unique?? Sure looks and sounds like a double charge of fast powder

[waksupi]

, there had to be some defect in the gun.

It's a Taurus. Poor quality from end to end. It's no surprise metallurgy lacks as well as other qualities they don't have. Really sorry it blew up on you.

[thegatman]

OMG I hope you are okay. Blackhawks are stronger guns but if no double charge then maybe defective gun.

[jonp]

Yes, Unique. I always place the bottle on the bench with no other powder. In this case I dipped out of the bottle itself, however, that is a good thought. I'll check the powder in the bottle to see if I mistakenly dumped Tightgroup in it as that's the latest fast powder I've used to load up some 38sp

[Down South]

I wonder if it was a squib load with a boolit stuck in a throat with a shot fired behind it?

[Tazman1602]

It's a Taurus. Poor quality from end to end. It's no surprise metallurgy lacks as well as other qualities they don't have. Really sorry it blew up on you.

Have to disagree with that Waksupi, respectfully. I have 4 Taurus' all top quality -- granted newest one is 20 years old but mine are great. Best cast Bullet shooter I've got is a 6" barrel 357 model 66 (I think 66)...

But still....WOW. I have Ruger BH, SBH, RH ETC that I KNOW I've overcharged and never a budge...


Art

[jonp]

If there was a bullet stuck in the throat wouldn't there be some indication on or in the barrel? It looks fine. Besides, 4 rounds were fired and there is 4 holes in the target, wide apart but all nice and round. If one pushed another out of the barrel and both somehow hit the target I'd think at least one of them would yaw like crazy and leave a broad hole. All were good.

Art: I've run some very, very stout loads though my Blackhawks including Linebaugh levels with no problems. Of course, the Taurus is a different animal altogether so I stayed within book levels. I have another short barrel Judge that I'm now eyeing with extreme skepticism.

[Finster101]

I do not own a Taurus nor do I plan to ever.

[bayjoe]

I wonder if the cylinder might not have cycled fully and the bullet hit the barrel causing the case to explode.

[tomme boy]

Its a Taurus. Nuf said

[kens]

Glad you are OK.
Double charge in a 45LC case.
I have seen double charges on my own bench, and caught them before seating bullet.
I no longer like any case volume that would allow a double charge.

[Hannibal]

Unless this was the first full cylinder you ever fired through this pistol, I'm going to have to suspect it was either a double/over charge or a charge with an incorrect powder.

These things just don't happen. Something causes them to happen.

And most often it turns out to be operator/re-loader error.

Glad to hear no one suffered serious injury, whatever the cause of the failure turns out to be.

[lefty o]

almost with certainty you somehow double charged it. a squib stuck in the barrel would act much differently. either the double or a way way faster powder. as much as i dislike taurus, doubtful thats taurus's problem.

[Dusty Bannister]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition. Unique
Lyman 452664, 250 grain Sugg starting grains 6.3 Max load grains 8.2

RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 Unique
45-250-FN, Sugg starting 7.4 gr Max 8.4 gr

[Hamish]

This is not the first, nor even the fifth, time that I have seen pics of a Judge blown up in this manner, several times by factory loads.

[turtlezx]

there you go HAMISH has your answer

[country gent]

Isnt unique one that's been reformulated in just the past few years? This may have some bearing here. Data for the old may not be quite the same for the new version. Another powder related is It used to be we were told to start low and work up to a load not only starting out new but also when any components were changed including lot numbers of powder and primers.

I cant see it as a bad case or case with something in it to reduce volume from cleaning, Occasionally a 40 cal case gets in when cleaning mixed brass. But the OP stated all charges were visibly the same height.

If this is a new firearm then it may have been a base issue with something from stock to manufacturering flaw. Contact Taurus and see what they have to say. I'm thinking a flaw in material or timing issue. but a offset chamber of any amount should also have kept the firing pin from hitting the primer. That is a long heavy cylinder to rotate and it may have jumped from momentum. I haven't heard of many problems with the judge line of firearms.

[richhodg66]

The two Taurus revolvers I have are both good to go, never had a problem with either one. Dunno about the Judge, never had an interest in owning one. Is there something inherent about the design that makes it weak?

[Idaho45guy]

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My dad loves his Judge and carries it whenever he's in the Arizona desert.

I don't own a Taurus.

[Hannibal]

This is not the first, nor even the fifth, time that I have seen pics of a Judge blown up in this manner, several times by factory loads.

Can you provide a link? Friend of mine owns one of these. I've shot it several times. If this is true, I won't be shooting it any more.

I do not dispute that an overcharge/improper load can 'grenade' a revolver. That's a given.

[bangerjim]

It's a Taurus. Poor quality from end to end. It's no surprise metallurgy lacks as well as other qualities they don't have. Really sorry it blew up on you.

I have to also violently disagree with the statement above!!!!!! I own 5 Taurus Judge style guns and all perform great. For years. I recommend them to others. Light load......heavy load......any load! They shoot anything (loaded correctly) I can shove in them. Every time. Perfectly.

There is something strange about the OP’s problem. Any product can have defects. Just glad he is OK. I have seen Colts and other prime-name guns to the same thing.

SHOOT HAPPEN! Just be careful on loads.

I guess people just like to name-drop on here. To each his own. I own Taurus guns! And proud of them.

Good luck!

[Walkingwolf]

I have seen images of about every major manufacturer kabooms, one police dept had two with factory ammo using Glocks.

Not sure what makes people think that factory ammo is perfect. But I tend to think it was an overcharge.

[Powder Burn]

Don't have stainless. Only shoot 000 buck through mine. Also hunt with a Taurus .44 mag. which I reload to the max with 4227 using the nasty J word. Never had any problems. Glad your alright. That would have scared the **** out of me.

[Hannibal]

I have to also violently disagree with the statement above!!!!!! I own 5 Taurus Judge style guns and all perform great. For years. I recommend them to others. Light load......heavy load......any load! They shoot anything (loaded correctly) I can shove in them. Every time. Perfectly.

There is something strange about the OP’s problem. Any product can have defects. Just glad he is OK. I have seen Colts and other prime-name guns to the same thing.

SHOOT HAPPEN! Just be careful on loads.

I guess people just like to name-drop on here. To each his own. I own Taurus guns! And proud of them.

Good luck!

I freely admit I am not a big Taurus fan. I just do not care so much for the fit/finish. That said, I tend to believe this was an overcharge/improper charge problem and not a material/manufacturing defect.

Not that such is not possible, but it is unusual.

[HangFireW8]

8.8gr Unique each load hand dipped then trickled onto a GemTech 250
250gr Lead Boolit mix of commercial Missouri and my own cast all weighed within 2-3 grs of each other


Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition. Unique
Lyman 452664, 250 grain Sugg starting grains 6.3 Max load grains 8.2

RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 Unique
45-250-FN, Sugg starting 7.4 gr Max 8.4 gr
QuickLoad says, with a 252grain Lee boolit, and 8.8gr Unique, you're running 17K PSI.
SAAMI MAP for 45 Colt is 14K PSI.

No comment about your loading technique or Taurus quality, I have no idea of either... but that's not a safe listed load you're working with.

[starmac]

Just glad you weren't hurt, or anybody else for that matter. I have never been drawn to to the concept for a judge, but don't figure it was the guns fault either.

[Hannibal]

QuickLoad says, with a 252grain Lee boolit, and 8.8gr Unique, you're running 17K PSI.
SAAMI MAP for 45 Colt is 14K PSI.

No comment about your loading technique or Taurus quality, I have no idea of either... but that's not a safe listed load you're working with.

I've not researched the load data you quoted, but an increase of charge pressure from 14K psi to 17K psi would not account for the failure/damage shown in the photograph.

Not saying it was a safe load, but 3K psi above max load data should not have resulted in a catastrophic failure as depicted.

[DDriller]

QuickLoad says, with a 252grain Lee boolit, and 8.8gr Unique, you're running 17K PSI.
SAAMI MAP for 45 Colt is 14K PSI.

No comment about your loading technique or Taurus quality, I have no idea of either... but that's not a safe listed load you're working with.
Trouble with QL is it is not always accurate for pressure or velocity.

[P Flados]

I just did a check and got about 5/16" short of a full case with 17.6 gr Unique in a fired 45 Colt case.

I also looked at the SAAMI Spec. Proof loads are 140% to 155% of max. So 1.4 x 14K is 19.6K min and max proof is 1.55 x 14k = 21.7K.

If the gun is built to survive 21.7K, a 17 K load should never cause gross failure. Worst case should be where regular shooting of loads above nominal but well below proof could "bulge" a cylinder.

I do feel that high strength stainless is an "at risk" material. The very high yield strengths available from hardened 410s and 17-4 PH type steels look great on paper, but they require very careful controls on the heat treat an temper process to get enough toughness to avoid the potential for brittle fracture.

On the other hand, in the photo it does look like there was plenty of plastic deformation of cylinder metal. Unless the temper was non-uniform and left a small portion of thin cylinder wall brittle, it is unlikely that the material was brittle.

If the material was over tempered (too soft), failure at 17k would be possible. However, I would have expected a bulged cylinder symptom from previous loads.

The other item not discussed is the cylinder bore. The judge is intended for 45 Colt or 410. I wonder if this chamber can allow a bullet to get a little cocked and try to jam.

[Hannibal]

I just did a check and got about 5/16" short of a full case with 17.6 gr Unique in a fired 45 Colt case.

And ugliness would undoubtedly ensue.

My .44 mag will get your attention with 10 grains and a 250 grain bullet.

YMMV.

[Rcmaveric]

This is why i weigh all the rounds once loaded.

[jonp]

Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, 4th edition. Unique
Lyman 452664, 250 grain Sugg starting grains 6.3 Max load grains 8.2

RCBS Cast Bullet Manual #1 Unique
45-250-FN, Sugg starting 7.4 gr Max 8.4 gr

You are correct, however, my Lee Book shows 9.4gr. As I said, I've used this load before and have had no problems. This is why I dropped down. Depending on the bullet, 9.0gr is a max load in this weight. The profile fits the one with this load. I checked 4 different books on this one.
The Alliant site itself lists 9.5gr as max with a 250gr lswc http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/powderlist.aspx?page=/reloaders/powderlist.aspx&type=1&powderid=3&cartridge=36

When in doubt on a load I go to the powder manu website and see what they say. It's over 1/2gr under their max and also Lee's max listing.

[jonp]

Can you provide a link? Friend of mine owns one of these. I've shot it several times. If this is true, I won't be shooting it any more.

I do not dispute that an overcharge/improper load can 'grenade' a revolver. That's a given.

I will disregard the squib load as all rounds exited the barrel. The double is a possibility and that was the first thought of mine but I look in the brass after charging to see what they looked like. I will be extra careful from now on with this step. Weighing the rounds is a good idea, Rcmaveric. I don't do that now but will add this step.

I doubt the out of time but that is a possibility. Lighter rounds using a 200gr boolit and light Tightgroup were very accurate and no evidence of lead spitting, leading etc were in evidence.

There is a full and very good crimp on the rounds so bullet setback from recoil causing over pressure is possible but unlikely. I looked at the powder in the Unique bottle and it is uniform so no contamination from a different powder.

The other item not discussed is the cylinder bore. The judge is intended for 45 Colt or 410. I wonder if this chamber can allow a bullet to get a little cocked and try to jam. Interesting idea but doubtful a bullet especially a lead one could get that cockeyed under a near max load. At worst it would try to enter the barrel and jam or cause spitting or severe leading. Neither are in evidence.

Most likely cause I'm going on is gun defect or double charge "grenading" the cylinder. Hard to believe a double as when I get near max I'm extra careful and the casefill of 17.6-18gr puts it almost full making that apparent but that seems the most likely at this point. The thing that is causing me to shy away from this explanation is the fill capacity in the case using a double charge of Unique and that I hand dipped and trickled each round instead of my Lyman 55 or other powder thrower.

Any other idea's? The general consensus seems to be a double charge or using the wrong powder. If its the wrong powder we will know shortly as I'm pulling the bullets in a few minutes at random to look and weigh. I hand dipped out of the jug itself with a lee dipper so the wrong powder is unlikely.

One final note. There is an interesting difference in the top strap breakage on the front. The break is a rough break as expected except there is one, small nice smooth hole like a bubble. I'm very interested in finding the top strap to see if there is a matching protrusion which would indicate poor casting. This is just a guess but if that would be true would a heavy load causing the top strap in the front to break cause the cylinder to ride up fast enough to jam the bullet into the frame and blow up the cylinder? This would leave a mark above the forcing cone as in if the failure is catastrophic enough to blow up the cylinder there would be some type of deformation on that or could the cylinder failure be fast enough to break off the top strap and exit the frame before anything else could happen?

[square butte]

My bet is a Metalurgically Challenged revolver. Good to go through the process of questioning the whole process - Are you following what went on at the State House up here yesterday . . .?

[jonp]

My bet is a Metalurgically Challenged revolver. Good to go through the process of questioning the whole process - Are you following what went on at the State House up here yesterday . . .?

Unfortunately, yes I am. It's a shame what some people from away are doing to our state all in the name of "DOING SOMETHING" even though there has been no problems in VT that I'm aware of

[dubber123]

This is why i weigh all the rounds once loaded.

its very common for cases, especially mixed headstamp to vary by much more than the charge weights in this case. Add in possibly a few grains variance in individual projectiles, and you will be chasing your tail forever weighing loaded rounds. I have seen small .357 mag cases vary by 10+ grains from different manufacturers.

[jonp]

its very common for cases, especially mixed headstamp to vary by much more than the charge weights in this case. Add in possibly a few grains variance in individual projectiles, and you will be chasing your tail forever weighing loaded rounds. I have seen small .357 mag cases vary by 10+ grains from different manufacturers.

True but I'm using all unfired Starline brass and chasing a double charge. 8-9gr variance in new pistol brass from Starline seems very unlikely. Weighing would see about double rounds I'd think

[Lloyd Smale]

yup I hate to rain on the tarrus cheerleaders but there will be none in my safe. Buddy had one just like that and at 5 yards yo were lucky to keep one pellet on a piece of paper. Fit and finish right up there with a yugo. Ive found most of the guys who brag on them have owned maybe on and have never owned something to compare it to or cant afford something good and feel they have to defend there honor because there way to smart to buy junk. Ive owned a few and had exactly one decent one and that was a pt92. thank God it never broke. I can save you the aggravation of contacting tarrus and complaining. YOU WILL GET NO WHERE. they will blame everything but there product. Even if they were good guns they have hands down the worse customers service and warrantee dept in the gun world. I once sent them an 85 that was out of tune and it took a year and probably 2o letters to get it back and when it got back it was just as bad as when I sent it. I doubt they even looked at it. Consider it a 500 dollar lesson and move on.
It's a Taurus. Poor quality from end to end. It's no surprise metallurgy lacks as well as other qualities they don't have. Really sorry it blew up on you.

[6bg6ga]

I was fortunate enough to witness just how bad the Judges are. At the range one afternoon I watched a gentleman open a brand new box of store bought 45LC ammunition load his Judge and fire. The result after several rounds was it absolutely wouldn't rotate the cylinder anymore. Neither one of us could get it open.

I will say something for the 44 magnum Raging Bull. It is heavily built and is a very good gun. My brother owns one and he also owns S&W, Ruger Red Hawk, and others. I currently own a Desert Eagle, 2) S&W 629's a Ruger Super Red HAwk and I would put his raging bull up next to the Super Red Hawk.

[lightman]

WOW, Glad you were not injured!

It seems like you have covered everything. Your loading technique seems to be in order, and safe. You weighed the charges and double checked them. Correct bullet weight. New brass. Correct powder, and not mixed up. Just curious, did you compare the powder you used to that in another can? You had holes in the target to account for all of your shots, so not a squib load. If all of the above checked out, it seems like a defect in the pistol.

I'm not sure that weighing loaded rounds would tell you anything? Maybe? Case weights differ and so do bullet weights. You might weigh the rest of your loads as you break them down, just to see how close they are. Are they less than 8 grains difference between them?

On a different note, my Son carry one of these when he is working on his Duck lease. I will mention this to him.

Really happy that you are OK!

[jmort]

I stick with .410 Federal Handgun #000 Buckshot and #7 Birdshot with my Governor
Have never seen a problem with the S&W Governor with any ammunition

[BrassMagnet]

I have never owned a Taurus and I won't ever own one.

One of my gunsmith buddies absolutely hates the Judge and he won't touch one. He states the frame stretches and leads to misfires before it completely fails. You can check for stretching by seeing if the cylinder has any forward and backward motion. There should be none!
If it stretches, he says to have Taurus fix it/replace it and then sell it at the next gun show to a stranger.

I am personally opposed to passing on gun problems to others, but that is what he says.

[richhodg66]

Well, the Judge always seemed like a strange concept to me, so never interested me, and I think something inherent in that design is to blame.

I have two Taurus revolvers and contrary to the condescending "they don't own anything to compare it to and are too dumb to know better" argument, I have S&W and Ruger revolvers also.

Both my Taurus revolvers are basic no frills belly guns, one a .44 Special and a lightweight Model 85 snub .38 which I carry. I haven't put tens of thousands of rounds through either, but have shot both quite a bit and not had a problem with either. The little .38 handles the +P factory loadings just fine. In short, both are exactly what they claim to be, no better or worse.

[EMC45]

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My dad loves his Judge and carries it whenever he's in the Arizona desert.

I don't own a Taurus.



The top one is a Thunder Five not a Taurus.

[ShooterAZ]

I have no dog in this "Taurus" fight. It's either a problem with the gun, or with the load. Anything else is pure speculation. I'd send the revolver back to them so they can try to figure out what caused the failure, and address it before someone gets hurt or worse. Glad no one was injured, and sorry about the loss of your gun.

[jonp]

Everyone please read the other thread on what I have checked so far and mention anything on that thread I have missed so far.

The weight variation of loaded rounds and the components I'm checking to see if the variation is less than the weight of a double charge and it is. The powder weight difference between the lightest and heaviest loaded round is .05gr. That is: 8.75-8.8gr so it seems correct.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I wonder if it was a squib load with a boolit stuck in a throat with a shot fired behind it?

The snag with that theory is that the OP would have to overlook an almost total lack of noise and recoil. If it happened, and the bullet was in the barrel, thought, it is wrong to suppose that a ring bulge would have resulted. That isn't caused by metal striking metal, but by a gas pressure wave catching up on a decelerated bullet, and the blown cylinder probably relieved all pressure fast enough to prevent that.

If it happened that way, it is quite possible that the bullets would have reached the target without yawing. When people load a column of little tuna-can bullets in a .357 Maximum or Magnum case they do, as each in turn is plucked off the column by suction on its base.

At least as likely as a double powder charge, I would have thought, would be a double bulleted round. I don't think that would be very noticeable in a powerful reloading press.

[jonp]

At least as likely as a double powder charge, I would have thought, would be a double bulleted round. I don't think that would be very noticeable in a powerful reloading press.
I was using a Lee Single Stage. Double boolit pretty much impossible.

[HABCAN]

Decades ago I was shooting some 'heavy' .38 Spl. loads from my then wife's S&W #60 2" when a friend admired and asked to shoot some. I gave him six and his Taurus came apart just like that Judge. I bought him a S&W #19 4" as a replacement. Mebbeso there's a quality thing about Taurus?

[white eagle]

seems to me that if you are that close to max on your charge weight
that you need to worry about components weight you are most likely
treading very close to dangerous pressures already now if it has nothing to do with
you,your loads or components that only leaves one thing, the gun itself

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I have never owned a Taurus and I won't ever own one.

One of my gunsmith buddies absolutely hates the Judge and he won't touch one. He states the frame stretches and leads to misfires before it completely fails. You can check for stretching by seeing if the cylinder has any forward and backward motion. There should be none!
If it stretches, he says to have Taurus fix it/replace it and then sell it at the next gun show to a stranger.

I am personally opposed to passing on gun problems to others, but that is what he says.
While I will read these types of KaBoom threads with interest, I hate to comment, as I don't claim to have the type of knowledge or wisdom to diagnose such a failure. Add that, I've never shot a Judge, and I've never even inspected a Judge. So take my thought with a grain of salt.

If BrassMagnet's gunsmith buddy has seen this more than once...or especially if he's seen it several times?
Then I wonder if your frame stretched enough during the second to the last shot, so that when the last round fired, the barrel and cylinder were not aligned well, so as the near Max 17Kpsi would have increased (due to misalignment) enough to make the cylinder fail, but still hold together long enough to allow the boolit (or most of the boolit) go down range. That may also explain the disappearance of the top strap...if a sheared off piece of the boolit launched it up up and away.
That's my 2¢

[Murphy]

There was a time I could see maybe owning a Taurus in years gone by. However, their reputation has been on a decline the past 4-5 years to the point I can not, and would not recommend one to anyone.

Sad to see as their quality has gone so far south. Not everyone can afford a Ruger, S&W, etc of better quality and it gave those people an option other than not having a gun at all.

Murphy

[dverna]

Once you say you are shooting reloads, most manufacturers will use it as a “get out of jail free”. There are many ways to screw up a reload.

If it is a fault in the metal it can be determined, but that will likely cost as much as the gun is worth. Worth checking into and suggesting you may do that when you contact Taurus.

My procedure for loading on a single stage is to drop the powder and immediately seat the bullet and crimp it. There is no chance of double charging with that method. I nearly had a double charge when I used to charge all the cases first and found that it was safer to charge and seat each round and faster as well. YMMV

[Tackleberry41]

8.8 is not a hot load. I have some reloading data where it gives standard pressure, blackhawk, and now judge loads. The Judge loads are higher than standard pressure, but still low pressure due to all the blow by in the chamber of those guns.

One of the problems with the colt is there is so much capacity, you can easily double or triple charge with room left over.

[richhodg66]

Just looking at the Hornady third edition I keep handy. The list 8.8 grains of Unique as their max load for 900 FPS with their 250 grain JHP. This is not the "Ruger only" section, but should be safe in the old Colts.

Assuming no mistake was made, I think it unlikely that the handloads were what caused this.

[rockrat]

I would say it is a metallurgical problem with the gun. slight chance of an SEE, with that powder charge. I don't know if a defective/weak primer might cause minimal ignition and a pressure wave is started as part of the powder ignites then burn almost stops, then resumes causing higher than normal pressures, of if even that this though is in the realm of possibility.
Had the same thing happen to a S&W 29 silhouette. Second cylinderfull. Saw where the first three hit and on the 4th, mild recoil, a flash and the top half of the cylinder was gone along with the top strap with a 90 degree bend.
New brass, bullets and powder weighted, powder level inspected while charged cases in loading block, ect. I was loading ammo to test for use in IHMSA. I had bought the gun the weekend prior and wanted to shoot it the next match.

[jmort]

Like many, I question the specific load in the round that caused this. I can listen to what a big surprise, I don't know for a fact it was as stated, but I will never agree that there was no room for error. I tend to think human error in the load. You can deconstruct 1,000 bullets, but that tells you nothing about the round in the chamber.

[Walkingwolf]

Once you say you are shooting reloads, most manufacturers will use it as a “get out of jail free”. There are many ways to screw up a reload.

If it is a fault in the metal it can be determined, but that will likely cost as much as the gun is worth. Worth checking into and suggesting you may do that when you contact Taurus.

My procedure for loading on a single stage is to drop the powder and immediately seat the bullet and crimp it. There is no chance of double charging with that method. I nearly had a double charge when I used to charge all the cases first and found that it was safer to charge and seat each round and faster as well. YMMV

This is what I do, every single time. I also weigh every single charge, no matter how consistent the powder measure is. Just me but I would not trust a scoop as they can compress powder.

[reddog81]

This had to be an extreme overpressure event. A slightly hot load doesn't just blow the cylinder apart and send the topstrap flying. Did you find the piece of brass that was fired? It has to be split open like a banana if it did that to the gun. It's possible the poor metallurgy contributed to the dramatic results, but you don't go from loads that are fine to a load that tears the gun apart in just 3,000 PSI.

I've heard of numerous people either modifying the frame or cylinder of their Judge to shoot .45 ACP. While I would not recommend such modifications, I would have to assume the Judge can easily handle 21,000 PSI loads.

FWIW you absolutely can find a double charge by weighing loaded rounds if the brass is all from the same lot and usually even if it's just the same headstamp. I've weighed loaded .38 special rounds to double check for over charges and out of 50 not one was off by more than 2 grains.

[Biggin]

Probably gonna make all the Taurus haters mad at me but I've had several over the last 30 years. Never had a problem. However I've never handloaded for my judge, never seen any point in it. I keep it loaded with buckshot and or birdshot. Imo it's for varmint either 2 legged 3 legged or no legged at close range. 3yds or less.

[Biggin]

4 legged varmint s as well!!!! LOL!!!

[jonp]

I have the brass and all look like i could size and reload them back up

[Grmps]

I've got to agree with Hamish. Manufacturing defect there had to be a flaw to get even separation like that. I'd contact Taurus and make them replace it.

[Camper64]

Did you confirm each hole in the target as they were shot or at the end after the gun blew up? I'm just wondering if its possible the last shot pushed a squibbed bullet to the target.

[dverna]

Jonp,

In my post, I forgot to mention that I am glad you were not hurt.

Also, not suggesting you are/were careless. A different protocol may help avoid accidents and be more useful for less experienced reloaders.

I hope you can determine the cause of what happened and that the issue was the gun.

Again, glad no one was injured.

[jonp]

Don,
No Worries. I'm trying to get to the bottom of this and all comments are welcome.

I just ran 6 random from the box in my 7.5in New Model Blackhawk. Stout but nothing to write home about. All seemed the same in recoil. All hit the target.

[jonp]

Did you confirm each hole in the target as they were shot or at the end after the gun blew up? I'm just wondering if its possible the last shot pushed a squibbed bullet to the target.

? No, I don't remember checking each shot just the target after the gun exploded to make sure 4 rounds hit it including the last one.

[jimlj]

yup I hate to rain on the tarrus cheerleaders but there will be none in my safe. Buddy had one just like that and at 5 yards yo were lucky to keep one pellet on a piece of paper. Fit and finish right up there with a yugo. Ive found most of the guys who brag on them have owned maybe on and have never owned something to compare it to or cant afford something good and feel they have to defend there honor because there way to smart to buy junk. Ive owned a few and had exactly one decent one and that was a pt92. thank God it never broke. I can save you the aggravation of contacting tarrus and complaining. YOU WILL GET NO WHERE. they will blame everything but there product. Even if they were good guns they have hands down the worse customers service and warrantee dept in the gun world. I once sent them an 85 that was out of tune and it took a year and probably 2o letters to get it back and when it got back it was just as bad as when I sent it. I doubt they even looked at it. Consider it a 500 dollar lesson and move on.
I am NOT a Taurus cheerleader. I own one among other quality guns. I can afford better, but for what I wanted the Taurus for it was good enough. My problem with the comment is about Taurus customer service. While they were not the fastest, they took care of a problem with my 709 slim I purchased used. They sent me a shipping label which saved me $30+. They called me a few weeks later and told me they couldn't fix the problem and were sending me a new gun through my FFL. It took about another month to receive it but my only cost was the transfer fee to the FFL, and I think if I had asked Taurus to pay it they would have. I don't know what they will do with reloads, but from reading this and the OP's other post he has all of the brass, and it sounds as though the offending piece wasn't even split. The worse that could happen is they say no, but I believe if you plead your case politely without being a malignant anal orifice it goes a long way.

[Adam20]

I was just reloading some .223 with 26 of cfe223, measuring on a rcbs 750 electronic scale.
The first one I dumped into the case overflowed. I got to checking everything again and after I calibrated the scale I was set on grams not grains. Something to think about on large cases with low fill. Glad you were not hurt. Just a reminder to keep checking everything and not become lax in paying attention to what your doing. Not saying you did anything wrong at all.

[DCM]

Jonp
Glad you were not hurt!
You appear to be on the right track with this IMO. Either the load or the gun.

I owned a taurus many years ago and sent it in for warranty repairs twice before the LGS bought it back as it never got fixed. I will not own another.

[Lloyd Smale]

well bottom line is it was either a defective gun or an double charge or a previous squib that was lodged in the barrel. . 2 grains difference in powder charge would not do this. Guns are proofed at twice normal pressures. real simple common sense answer would come from the recoil of that load. There is going to be a HUGE difference between the recoil of 17 grains of unique and 8.8. HUGE. There is going to be a huge difference in recoil between trying to shoot one 255 grain bullet out of the bore with 8.8 grains of unigue then if that powder is trying to pus 510 grains of bullet. So if the gun about tried to rip itself out of your hands you had a load problem if recoil was about the same as any other shot you had a gun problem. but good luck getting tarrus to admit it

[6bg6ga]

well bottom line is it was either a defective gun or an double charge or a previous squib that was lodged in the barrel. . 2 grains difference in powder charge would not do this. Guns are proofed at twice normal pressures. real simple common sense answer would come from the recoil of that load. There is going to be a HUGE difference between the recoil of 17 grains of unique and 8.8. HUGE. There is going to be a huge difference in recoil between trying to shoot one 255 grain bullet out of the bore with 8.8 grains of unigue then if that powder is trying to pus 510 grains of bullet. So if the gun about tried to rip itself out of your hands you had a load problem if recoil was about the same as any other shot you had a gun problem. but good luck getting tarrus to admit it

I'm not a Judge fan period. I have seen these things break with factory loaded ammunition. This is a piss poor example of something that is supposed to be capable of firing a shotgun cartridge and a pistol cartridge. The bad thing is people purchase them with the idea that they can actually have something that will shoot 45LC and group fairly decently and then fire a 410 shotgun shell. Well, seen them up close and they can sometimes hit the paper with a 410 shell and maybe manage a 12" group at 20 feet with 45LC shells. People get real please! If you want a **** shotgun then buy one. Take a single shot shotgun saw off the barrel to legal length and you will have something superior to the Judge. Buy a cheap 45 LC revolver and it will be better than the Judge. The Judge is a real *** and a waste of money.

[pmer]

This type of thing usually requires a combination of events. The load by itself doesn't seem totally out of line. I wonder when one of these blow is it usually when 45 Colt is fired?

Glad the OP is okay.

Weak primer, low seating pressure and all of that free bore and maybe a stretched frame or something. I doubt this happened but I suppose a boolit could completely come out of the case and the cylinder could still rotate.

[richhodg66]

I'm not a Judge fan period. I have seen these things break with factory loaded ammunition. This is a piss poor example of something that is supposed to be capable of firing a shotgun cartridge and a pistol cartridge. The bad thing is people purchase them with the idea that they can actually have something that will shoot 45LC and group fairly decently and then fire a 410 shotgun shell. Well, seen them up close and they can sometimes hit the paper with a 410 shell and maybe manage a 12" group at 20 feet with 45LC shells. People get real please! If you want a **** shotgun then buy one. Take a single shot shotgun saw off the barrel to legal length and you will have something superior to the Judge. Buy a cheap 45 LC revolver and it will be better than the Judge. The Judge is a real *** and a waste of money.

On this I agree. The Taurus revolvers I have are fine, but the whole "shoot .410 shells and solid ammo through it" always seemed a strange thing and in the back of my mind asking for trouble. I live out in the country so a short handy thing for shooting small, fleeting targets makes sense and I got one of the Taurus "Tuffy" shotguns like the old Snake Charmers. Much more sensible in my opinion. For a man stopper revolver, I really think a big solid bullet from a .45 Colt would do the job better than 5/8 ounce of bird shot would.

The OP has started another thread I've been reading and I am more and more convinced this was a gun problem, either an inherent design flaw or a QC problem.

[6bg6ga]

This type of thing usually requires a combination of events. The load by itself doesn't seem totally out of line. I wonder when one of these blow is it usually when 45 Colt is fired?

Glad the OP is okay.

Weak primer, low seating pressure and all of that free bore and maybe a stretched frame or something. I doubt this happened but I suppose a boolit could completely come out of the case and the cylinder could still rotate.

The ones I saw trashed were done with factory 45LC ammunition. I would call it poor metal and bad engineering.

[jonp]

In my other thread on the steps I'm trying out Der Gebirgsjager, I think, nailed the problem as did bayjoe in post #13 here.

Both suggested a cylinder out of time and asked about the brass. Rechecking the 4 fired rounds from this explosion which includes the 3 fired before the 4th detonated and 6 fired from my Blackhawk yesterday only the one that blew up the gun had a primer strike slightly off center.

After further research I found something along the lines of this in a Taurus Armed Thread: http://www.taurusarmed.net/forums/smithing/119610-taurus-revolver-issue-fix-sticky-cylinder-stop-derailing-cylinder.html

So, I came to this site for ideas on what may have happened and I think we got it. Sticky cylinder stop caused the cylinder to stop slightly off center and when the hammer dropped on an out of battery, free wheeling cylinder BOOM! Never occured to me as the gun is nearly new with 20 or so rounds shot through it.

Any argument on this one?

[rl69]

Not so much a argument, as I think this is the most plausible answer. But you said all 4 rounds hit the target ?

[jonp]

Not so much a argument, as I think this is the most plausible answer. But you said all 4 rounds hit the target ?

Yeah, that was mentioned in the other thread. I rechecked the barrel shroud/forcing cone under a light and magnifying glass. There is lead jammed between the cone and the shroud with the cone slightly off center.

New working theory: sticky cylinder stop caused the cylinder to be just off center. Hammer drops, boolit impacts the side of the cone a little causing enough of a pause to increase the backpressure high to blow up cylinder and the pressure also forces the bullet down the barrel into target. The brass is not split so the pressure is in front of it not in it.
Sound plausible or impossible?

[Dusty Bannister]

But then you have to consider your earlier statement that the primers were hit in the center. This would not happen if the cylinder was out of position. Perhaps you might consider that the cylinder crane was slightly out of position because the ejector rod may have dislodged from the locked position which would allow the rear of the cylinder to remain locked but the front moved out of alignment so the projectile would enter the forcing cone off center. Heavy recoil which you noted might have caused the issue. It likely would have not been noticed if you were focused on the sights and not the way the cylinder was positioned within the frame. I suppose the lockup could have been compromised if the frame was just starting to stretch but had not yet failed.

How tightly does the cylinder/crane/ejector rod fit in a new Judge and how quickly do they "loosen up" with factory loads?

Where exactly is the lead lodged between the shroud and the barrel when viewed from the rear? 12:00, 3, 6 or 9:00? If it is at 12 or 6, then it is not likely free wheeling.

PS wish to heck you would have kept it to only one thread so your conclusions would have been in a consecutive order.

[jonp]

Dusty, check my other thread. After re-reading the comments I looked at the primer of the case that was in the blown up chamber. Of the 4 rounds fired that one has a slightly off center strike. It took a strong light and a magnifying glass to see it as it is slight but it's there. The lead between the cone and shroud is also something I didn't notice until I used a strong light. This is what is leading me down the sticky cylinder stop path. The lead is about 1300 with the cone gap at the the top to the clockwise side from 1200 and the tightness at the 1900. I'm now wondering if the boolit could have jammed into that moving it down with the lead in the gap or if the boolit would have forced it up and jammed close at the 1300 position.

Do you think a frame could stretch that fast? It's a pretty new gun. The cylinder crane/ejection rod is an interesting angle. The rod is bent pretty good but i put that down to the explosion. While the load was within book it was near Max. That could have caused the crane to loosen?

The easiest explanation is a double charge so I'm going to exhaust all other explanations first. As for one thread, your most likely right. I wanted one where I asked for opinions and let others argue a little and one where I listed what I'm doing to run down the explosion. Should have kept it on one track I guess. Maybe I'll start a 3rd with just the steps, in order, of how I approached this thing.

[starmac]

I am by no means an expert, but have a hard time believing that a very slight off center primer strike, especially if it takes a magnifying glass to see it means much. I have seen too many loose pistols that shave lead, to think that primer strike means much.

[Dusty Bannister]

I think that through the PM's I have suggested that three sources show a lower max loading than you used. With three out of four references saying it is over max, I think that horse is dead enough. Now to try to figure out what other reason could have contributed to this failure. Had the cylinder stop not engaged, I would have expected the bullet to have missed the hole at either 9 or 3. Your examination does not show that. If the ejector rod has bent or dislodged then the impact could be at 12 or 6 or almost any thing close to that. If the cylinder was not correctly positioned due to frame top strap stretch, the cylinder might be out of alignment and I would suspect hitting high on the forcing cone. You finally show a collapsed case in one of the threads, which does suggest pressure outside of the case rather than inside the case. I think most of us are trying to suggest possibilities based upon information you are providing, but the facts have been changed by closer inspection.

Perhaps it would be wise to ask a moderator lock one thread and refer to the second thread. Wouldn't that be better than starting yet another thread?

I asked about the loose condition because I do not have a revolver of this type, so perhaps others can advise if they are finding similar occurrences. It might suggest a trend for what is happening with this type of firearm. It would be nice to know about this before the next failure occurs.

[jonp]

I am by no means an expert, but have a hard time believing that a very slight off center primer strike, especially if it takes a magnifying glass to see it means much. I have seen too many loose pistols that shave lead, to think that primer strike means much.

A magnifying glass is helpful to us old people, starmac :razz:

[jonp]

I think that through the PM's I have suggested that three sources show a lower max loading than you used. With three out of four references saying it is over max, I think that horse is dead enough. Now to try to figure out what other reason could have contributed to this failure. Had the cylinder stop not engaged, I would have expected the bullet to have missed the hole at either 9 or 3. Your examination does not show that. If the ejector rod has bent or dislodged then the impact could be at 12 or 6 or almost any thing close to that. If the cylinder was not correctly positioned due to frame top strap stretch, the cylinder might be out of alignment and I would suspect hitting high on the forcing cone. You finally show a collapsed case in one of the threads, which does suggest pressure outside of the case rather than inside the case. I think most of us are trying to suggest possibilities based upon information you are providing, but the facts have been changed by closer inspection.

Perhaps it would be wise to ask a moderator lock one thread and refer to the second thread. Wouldn't that be better than starting yet another thread?

I asked about the loose condition because I do not have a revolver of this type, so perhaps others can advise if they are finding similar occurrences. It might suggest a trend for what is happening with this type of firearm. It would be nice to know about this before the next failure occurs.

Dusty, closer inspection based on the comments to focus what I'm looking for is why this thread is here. I'm open to every suggestion and comment. I don't care if I'm right or wrong as long as the reason for the destruction is narrowed down. It's either the gun or it's my reloading. My reloading a double charge is fairly simple. Did I or didn't I? If I did then case closed. If I didn't then that's why we are here. Explore all other avenues, if those don't pan out then I am to blame for a double charge.
The ejector rod is indeed bent and the lead jammed in between the forcing cone and the barrel shroud suggests a high hit. The collapsed brass is useful imho in showing only one thing, pressure spike that was not in the case. The dent down one side could have easily come from impacting the top strap on the way out of the gun. The fact that it's not a jagged or split case suggests no double charge or am I not reading this correctly?

I have had a number of comments on frame stretch. Anyone care to hazard a guess as to how many rounds a modern firearm would require to have it enough to cause this failure? Let's get that out of the way!

[P Flados]

The brass is not split\

If you are say that the brass is intact for the round that caused the kaboom, I am 99.99% confident that it was not a double charge. This is HUGE clue to what happened.

With a gross overload of unique, the pressure spike would be very fast. I would expect the pressure to be high enough as the boolit leaves the case for the case to be fully pressed up against the cylinder wall such that if it were a simple overpressure event, the case would have gross ruptured as the cylinder split. This failure seems to have rutured the cylinder well forward of the brass an relieved pressure before the split propagated to the rear of the cylinder.

I am back to thinking about either

- Some kind of interaction between the boolit and the cylinder wall well after the boolit left the case
- A defect in the cylinder wall that was well forward of the front of the brass

Both of the above are either "gun defect" or "gun design limitation" kind of things.

[RED BEAR]

Amen on the magnifying glass . I don't have a clue. Where these the first 4 rounds of the day. I would swear that I check every thing twice and my last range visit had box of 38 spec give 3 squib loads. Should have stopped sooner but went through half the box. Took other half home and checked the rest all OK. Can't explain that one either. Before this I had one squib load in 45 years. Also had a 357 after a couple boxes all at once a round went off that sounded like a bomb. The only thing I could come up with was might have been excessive leading. But not sure. Some times it is a mystery. Don't own a judge but do have several tauras hand guns revolvers and autos. Really like all of them. But sometimes mistakes in manufacturing happen no one or nothing is perfect . not sure weather you or tauras is at fault. May not ever know. Not sure who said you may not have quality gun to compare a Taurus to I and wife also shoot a few smith and Wesson's that came from there custom shop back in the day. And a few colts would they qualify? Just glad no one was hurt the make new guns everyday hands arms and lives are a different story.

[jonp]

I have not only several Rugers for brute force but a number of SW's including a Target Masterpiece, Combat Magnum etc. This Taurus sure ain't those that's for sure.

I didn't start this thread for it to degenerate into a "I'm right and your stupid" argument thing. I'm looking for all opinions to run down and try to get at what happened.

[winelover]

I'm not a Judge fan period. I have seen these things break with factory loaded ammunition. This is a piss poor example of something that is supposed to be capable of firing a shotgun cartridge and a pistol cartridge. The bad thing is people purchase them with the idea that they can actually have something that will shoot 45LC and group fairly decently and then fire a 410 shotgun shell. Well, seen them up close and they can sometimes hit the paper with a 410 shell and maybe manage a 12" group at 20 feet with 45LC shells. People get real please! If you want a **** shotgun then buy one. Take a single shot shotgun saw off the barrel to legal length and you will have something superior to the Judge. Buy a cheap 45 LC revolver and it will be better than the Judge. The Judge is a real *** and a waste of money.

I'm not a Taurus fan and will probably never own one. However, I have shot a Judge, that a friend brought over to my backyard range. We ran some shot loads at snake killing distances..........more than adequate. I happened to have some 45 Colt loads with Unique under Miha's 270 SAA (solids, conic and penta HP's), on hand. Rick made a comment that he never shot it with 45 Colt loads, only shot loads. Well, I said we'd remedy that. We ran several cylinder full and at social distances, had no problems with keeping the shots on 50 foot Bullseye target. Typical, DA belly gun accuracy, if you are capable. I did recall that the conic HP's were slightly more accurate than the pentas. Those were Ruger only loads intended for my 7 1/2" BH, the only 45 Colt chambered handgun I own. Only, drawback I've seen, is that the Judge is just too large for concealed carry.

Winelover