308 cast loads

[wquiles]

It has been a couple of years since I got my Savage model 10 308 rifle, and reloading dies, but I finally got busy :-)

I am using a Ranch Dog design, on a mold made by NOE: TL310-180-RF RD
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0001.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0002.jpg


Gas checks:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0003.jpg


After segregating by weight to weed out the extremes:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0006.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0005.jpg


Since my 18.5" barrel is 1-10, following Larry Gipson's advice here in the forum I am trying to stay in the 1900-2100 range for the "hotter" loads, using 35gr IMR3031 and 37gr Varget:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0007.jpg

[wquiles]

I also tried a load with Trail Boss:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0008.jpg


Of course the max load varies with the brass brand, as the internal volume does change a little as you can see here:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0009.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0012.jpg



Loading on a Lee turret. I am using an M die plug (from Noe), and modified the Hornady bullet seating die to allow the "fatter" cast bullet:
Seating operation:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0010.jpg


This barrel is threaded, so I also want to use my suppressor on it, so I also made a few subsonic rounds (8.5gr and 9gr of Trail Boss):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0027.jpg


I tried these last Sunday and the guy in the bench to my right said that these sounded like a 22 cal rifle bullet with the suppressor on :)
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0028.jpg


Will

[robg]

Great pics ,nice write up.

[wquiles]

Thanks :)

[Bigslug]

I use the same mold for as the practice bullet my Ruger Scout - GREAT design! Ranch Dog really broke out the slide rule to design a dedicated .308 Winchester bullet, and as such, getting it to fit and shoot was really straightforward. As a happy coincidence, at about 2050 fps, it shoots just about to point of aim at 100 yards using the 225 yard "point blank" zero of my 3000 fps 130 grain Barnes TTSX's. Given that 2018 will be the last year that I can hunt with lead in CA, I may just take these out for a spin. Their effect on milk jugs is quite gratifying!

I just started using NOE's push-through sizing dies (.310 bushing) to seat the checks running these base-first prior to dousing them in Ben's Liquid Lube. Definitely the easy way to do things.

[bluejay75]

I have the same gun and shoot the same boolits from it. It is indeed a fantastic pairing. My go to load is under 2 inches at 100 yards with only a visual sort, 18.5 grains of AA9, mixed brass, plain base boolit powder coated and seated a little deeper into the case than yours.

Good shooting.

[wquiles]

Man, good to hear :)

After rejecting visual defects, I do weight sorting. Those who pass I then lightly coat them with WD-40 before sizing using a Lee push through sizer which also seats the Gas Check. I then clean whatever excess WD40 with a towel. Then they get the coating using Ben's Liquid Lube. I then let them sit overnight to dry before loading them.

Will

[wquiles]

I just loaded another batch with Ranch Dog's 180gr hunting bullet. This time I will be trying to find accuracy with Varget: 36gr to 37.5gr in .5gr increments (10x rounds each).

This time I am trimming all brass:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0031.jpg


After neck sizing (this is brand new primed, pulled-brass from military 308 rounds), then using the Lee M expanding (NOE plug):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0032.jpg


Seating with modified Hornady die:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0033.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0034.jpg


And a light/medium crimp using the Lee factory crimp die:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE_TL310-180-RF/IMAG0035.jpg


Hope to get a chance to try them out next weekend.

[Mike H]

Hope the 37 grains of Varget works for you,as a back up insurance,take some rounds loaded with 30 grains of Varget.

[Taterhead]

That was a great write-up. Thanks for bringing us along.

[popper]

Wquiles You shoot Garland? Maybe we get together some time. These work pretty good.
216702

[wquiles]

Hope the 37 grains of Varget works for you,as a back up insurance,take some rounds loaded with 30 grains of Varget.
I already tried 37gr Varget, so now I am trying "around" that power level to see what is most accurate, but I will certainly keep in mind the more mild load of 30gr of Varget as an alternative. Right now I have two plinking loads:
- supersonic with 14gr of Trailboss (about max density)
- subsonic with 8.5gr of Trailboss (with my current 45 caliber Form 1 suppressor - picture above)



That was a great write-up. Thanks for bringing us along.
You are welcome.



Wquiles You shoot Garland? Maybe we get together some time. These work pretty good.
216702
Absolutely - that is pretty much the only range I go to. Pretty cool you were able to identify the range from the pictures. Look forward to meeting you there one of these days :)

Will

[bluejay75]

How did the Varget workup go?

[Taterhead]

Those are some cool looking bullets. I'm not familiar with the design logic behind this Ranch Dog profile. Mind sharing a bit about what that bullet's all about?

[wquiles]

How did the Varget workup go?
Loaded them on Sunday, so I have not had a chance to go to the range yet. Hopefully this weekend!



Those are some cool looking bullets. I'm not familiar with the design logic behind this Ranch Dog profile. Mind sharing a bit about what that bullet's all about?
Thank you. This was a project by Ranch Dog from back in 2015, for 30 caliber hunting bullets for the 7.62x39, 308, and 300 Savage. Note that first and foremost these are designed as hunting bullets, with a wide meplat. Also, most/all of his designs are made for tumble lubing (hence the many, narrow lube grooves). Here is the original thread:
http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,585.0.html


My mold is a NOE 4x cavity, Al version of the 308 design => TL310-180-GC


Will

[wquiles]

Finally got the other 308 cal mold I wanted to try - the 30XCB mold!
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE 310-165-FN-H3 30XCB/IMAG0001.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE 310-165-FN-H3 30XCB/IMAG0002.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/casting/NOE 310-165-FN-H3 30XCB/IMAG0003.jpg


Right now finishing the heat cycles NOE recommends. Hope to cast with it very soon :)

Will

[Outer Rondacker]

Great job. Great write up. Great info. I can not wait to see how the 310-165 FN works for you. I have a older savage 110 in 308 and might have to give one of these molds a try.

[rsrocket1]

You'll have fun with those Trail Boss loads, but once you run out of TB, realize that you can use almost any fast to medium fast powder at the ~10 grain level and get the same performance at a lower cost. TB is great stuff but it's expensive (and some people say it stinks or smells funny).

In a rifle 10g is completely burned well before the bullet exits the muzzle so the powder doesn't make too much of a difference so you can use anything from e3, Titewad, Clays or Red Dot all the way down to 800X, Power Pistol or BE-86 and get similar performance.

With a real suppressor, it would be fun to make some subsonic loads and see how quiet you can truly get.

This group was at 50 yards
https://images3.imgbox.com/03/5a/ZjfR3Q2B_o.jpg

[Taterhead]

Loaded them on Sunday, so I have not had a chance to go to the range yet. Hopefully this weekend!



Thank you. This was a project by Ranch Dog from back in 2015, for 30 caliber hunting bullets for the 7.62x39, 308, and 300 Savage. Note that first and foremost these are designed as hunting bullets, with a wide meplat. Also, most/all of his designs are made for tumble lubing (hence the many, narrow lube grooves). Here is the original thread:
http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,585.0.html


My mold is a NOE 4x cavity, Al version of the 308 design => TL310-180-GC


Will

That's great. Thank you for the explanation, and for the link to the thread about the RD design.

[wquiles]

Great job. Great write up. Great info. I can not wait to see how the 310-165 FN works for you. I have a older savage 110 in 308 and might have to give one of these molds a try.
Thank you for your kind words.



You'll have fun with those Trail Boss loads, but once you run out of TB, realize that you can use almost any fast to medium fast powder at the ~10 grain level and get the same performance at a lower cost. TB is great stuff but it's expensive (and some people say it stinks or smells funny).

In a rifle 10g is completely burned well before the bullet exits the muzzle so the powder doesn't make too much of a difference so you can use anything from e3, Titewad, Clays or Red Dot all the way down to 800X, Power Pistol or BE-86 and get similar performance.

With a real suppressor, it would be fun to make some subsonic loads and see how quiet you can truly get.

This is my first go at reloading the 308, but I must admit I am typically leery of going that route since I have experienced and chronograph speed variations with case/powder position with small powder charges (low case density) in other cartridges, which is why I am primarily using Trail Boss despite the higher cost. That being said, your 50 yr target (nice shooting by the way!) is also good proof that in the 308, powder position/density might not be that important for subsonic loads :)

[wquiles]

OK, got to the range last weekend. This is a hunting bullet, but my results were not good enough to me accuracy-wise - these were some of the common groups at 50 yards from a very good rest:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/March_2018/IMAG0002.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/March_2018/IMAG0003.jpg


Rest:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/March_2018/IMAG0008.jpg


So to "proof" to myself that my setup was OK, instead of my Savage 308 with a scope setup on 20x, I tried my 45acp pistol carabine (suppressed, of course!) with a plain vanilla 1x Red Dot at the same target/distance of 50 yards. Save for the two shots in the red area, most were grouped in a close group - better than I achieved with the 308!:

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/March_2018/IMAG0005.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/March_2018/IMAG0010.jpg


I remember when I was trying the subsonic 308 rounds at 10x magnification I was getting smaller groups than these. This time, when I cleaned the rifle I noticed medium leading (which took a good number of patches/scrub to clean), so I am thinking that my bullet alloy (even though it is in the 20-ish hardness range after being water quenched), and a single coat of BLL (Ben's Liquid Lube) is not cutting it. So far all of my shooting has been with pistol cartridges and the 45-70 which hardly ever went past 1500fps, and a single light coat of BLL has been enough, so I feel I need to try better/different lube for this "close to 2000fps" loads.

So right now I am inclined to:
1) I don't (yet) have a lubrisizer, so desides BLL I also got White Label's Deluxe Liquid Xlox (45-45-10) on hand, so I can try two light coats of that next time.
2) Back off velocity-wise and start again with subsonic loads making sure I got no leading, before increasing power and watching groups at 50 yards.

Any other advice?

[35 shooter]

I use BLL from 1800 to 2600fps., but not with just 1 coat.
I use 3 coats for rifle shooting with no problems. Of course I let each coat dry before applying the next.

1 or 2 coats is for standard type handgun loads.

[wquiles]

Thanks - I will try at least another coat from now on :)

[wquiles]

Well, finally make great progress with my 308 cast loads :)

I skipped the Lee Factory Crimp die, seated the bullets to touch the rifling which resulted in a shorter overall length (too long before!), and I am using my new RCBS Luber with White Label's Blue lube. All shooting done from bench at 50 yards, same Savage model 10 police rifle, 20x scope, etc., with my form 1 45 cal suppressor.

First group with subsonic loads, Ranch Dog hunting bullet (8.5gr Trailboss):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/May_2018/IMAG0001.jpg


Subsonic, NOE 30 XCB bullet (8.5gr Trailboss):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/May_2018/IMAG0002.jpg


Ranch Dog bullet, high power load (33gr Varget):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/May_2018/IMAG0004.jpg


NOE XCP bullet, high power load (33gr Varget):
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/May_2018/IMAG0005.jpg



Of course, the barrel is now pretty warm, and although I waited a minute between rounds, the groups opened up with both bullets:
http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/May_2018/IMAG0006.jpg

http://m3coupe.com/Firearms/loads/shooting_range/May_2018/IMAG0007.jpg



I think I am ready to see how this works out at 100 yards :)

[popper]

What alloy are you using? I tried BLL (2 & 3 coats) on soft alloy (GCd), fast powder and also had no luck. My guess is that the high fast pressure destroys the lube before it gets into the bore. I haven't had any luck with anything softer that ACWW. Hard, HV & accuracy seem to be pretty easy, but soft, MV & accuracy are eluding me. Same results in 308/30-30/BO.

[bluejay75]

Powdercoat and don't try to size too big (.309) on the Ranchdog. I'm getting less than 2 inches at 100 yards with the same Boolit as a Plain Base. I'm at the "no more testing required" stage for this load.

[wquiles]

My actual allow composition is a mix of hard cast from various vendors, some pure lead, tin, etc., but with water dropping from the mold I get about 20-22 on the Lee hardness tester. I got the barrel cleaned afterwards, and found what I felt was some light leading in there - took a good number of patches/brush to get cleaned out, so perhaps the hardness (even with the gas check and the improved lube) are not quite good enough :roll:. I think I will try a session of only the subsonic loads to see if I get no leading. I still have some powder coat ingredients which I can use to try for the higher power loads.

[HangFireW8]

Your hardness is OK. Not sure what you are sizing to, or where you found the leading, please fill us in.

[wquiles]

I have been sizing to .309" with a Lee push sizer. Perhaps I should try sizing to .310" instead?

[popper]

310 works for my lr308, both uppers. FCD works fine (just remove the flare) but check your brass after using the M type expander, I'm using 2 thous. neck tension. I haven't used varget for cast, 335 & 4895 work for me but the boolits need to be hard for HV & accuracy as dropped into ice water. Even cold tap doesn't do it.I'm wanting to go shoot tomorrow, rain yesterday and today.

[HangFireW8]

Where in the barrel is the leading?

Can you measure a boolit after loading and pulling it?

[wquiles]

310 works for my lr308, both uppers. FCD works fine (just remove the flare) but check your brass after using the M type expander, I'm using 2 thous. neck tension. I haven't used varget for cast, 335 & 4895 work for me but the boolits need to be hard for HV & accuracy as dropped into ice water. Even cold tap doesn't do it.I'm wanting to go shoot tomorrow, rain yesterday and today.
I am using a NOE neck expanding insert with my Lee die, and I am getting good neck tension and very consistent overall cartridge length on finished rounds, but definitely something to recheck.


Where in the barrel is the leading?

Can you measure a boolit after loading and pulling it?
I don't have anything soft enough, so I might have to buy some pure lead plugs to measure the bore.