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View Full Version : 1911 FTF--alloy too soft? PC issue?



jmac2112
03-12-2018, 08:00 PM
I recently bought a Springfield Armory Range Officer, .45 cal., 5" (in case the details matter). So far, I have fired nothing but powder coated, round-nose boolits cast from wheel weights. I have put about 500 rounds through it, and I am experiencing consistent FTF with the first round of a full magazine. This happens with both the stock 7 round mags and aftermarket 8 round mags. The situation is somewhat better if I slingshot the slide instead of releasing it with the slide release, but not by much. The top round usually nose dives into the ramp and stops dead, and the problem gets worse as the feed ramp gets dirtier.

I know that this sort of nose diving is a "feature" of 1911's with their single stack mags, but the round is supposed to bounce up and keep going into the chamber. I'm starting to wonder if maybe my alloy (straight wheel weights) is too soft, so that instead of continuing up the ramp, the boolit "smooshes" and develops a flat on the end that keeps it from moving any further.

It has also occurred to me that the powder coat might be causing more drag than a lubed lead or jacketed projectile. In any case, if anyone has any words of wisdom, lay it on me!

Thanks,

John

DougGuy
03-12-2018, 08:23 PM
Push the front of the top round down in a fully loaded mag, depress the whole stack with it, let it loose and if it doesn't spring back up with authority, might look at getting different mags or an ISMI silicon chrome spring for yours.

COWW is not too soft.

nicholst55
03-12-2018, 08:31 PM
For a 1911 not to feed RN bullets is somewhat uncommon. The cartridge OAL might be an issue - I would suspect that they're a bit short in this case, although I've been wrong before. Does the gun feed factory hardball?

243winxb
03-12-2018, 08:36 PM
To soft alloy caused the same problem for me . I was testing almost pure lead with a lswc.

The nose got a flat spot where it contacted/stuck on the feed ramp.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/70s-colt-gold-cup-45acp.1535/full

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?media/45acp-947-just-touching-my-rifling.477/full

Bazoo
03-12-2018, 08:41 PM
Try lubing the top round with a smidge of gun oil smeared just on the bullet nose. That will rule out the pc having too much drag.

If its a used gun then you should start by changing the recoil spring. If its a new gun, it may have a rough feed ramp. Its easy enough to smooth a feed ramp, but it can be fouled up easy enough too. If its new, you could consider calling springfield. I've had a few dealings with them, and they've always done me right, and paid shipping both ways too.

Also, if its new, I'd run a couple hundred rounds jacketed ammo through it. It'll help break it in.

reddog81
03-12-2018, 11:02 PM
PC should have less drag than lead. What bullet and what OAL?

I'd hate to recommend polishing the feed ramp if the feed ramp isn't a problem, but it might help if nothing else does.

sigep1764
03-13-2018, 12:44 AM
Im with the guys above, go longer. I had the same issue just days ago with an LCP. Different animals, same issue. Seated it longer and voila, it feeds.

jmac2112
03-13-2018, 07:02 AM
Thanks for the feedback so far! Let me address some of the points that you all have made:

I'm using the Lee TL452-230-2R mold. I've got the boolits seated as far out as my barrel will allow, with an OAL of 1.265 (1.275 is the "official" spec for .45 ACP).

These are the only boolits I've used so far, so I don't know how it behaves with factory hardball. Worth looking into, though.

This is a brand new gun, so the recoil spring is probably not the issue.

The feed ramp is smooth, but with some barely visible machining marks. I can't feel them with my fingernail, but I can see them. I've tried using some 1500 grit sandpaper followed by metal polish, which made the ramp a little shinier but did not solve the problem.

I will try lubing the tip of the top round, as suggested by Bazoo.

I will also test the mags as suggested by DougGuy.

243winnxb: Was it only the almost-pure-lead alloy that caused problems for you?

Bazoo suggested sending it back to Springfield, and I will probably do that if I can't resolve the problem soon. They will probably claim that the problem lies with my homemade ammo, but then again maybe they won't.

Again, thanks for all the feedback!

John

jcren
03-13-2018, 07:36 AM
Play with oal a bit. Even just a few thou shorter will give a bit more sslide speed before the bullet hits the ramp and also get it a bit further out of the feed lips too. Every gun can be a bit of a puzzle in itself when using lead. A bit shorter won't cause pressure problems as long as you aren't loading mega magnum charges.

243winxb
03-13-2018, 08:28 AM
Seat your bullets deeper, shorter COL. See if it helps.

Yes. Only the soft lead cased my problems.

I read on this forum where some people used pure lead for 45 acp, so i tried it to see if i would get leading in the barrel. Also tried Rotometals linotype to see if a too hard alloy would lead the barrel. Both did not lead.

Accuracy is better with harder alloys. IMO. Wheel weights with some linotype added, even for the 45 acp target loads.

reddog81
03-13-2018, 10:15 AM
Try a little shorter OAL. 1.275 is not the "official" spec, it's the absolute maximum OAL for the cartridge.

There's no point in sending it back. They'll run some factory ammo through it and say everything works perfectly.

mdi
03-13-2018, 12:07 PM
Spring for a box of factory ammo, 230 gr. FMJ. Shooting these will give you a good idea if the gun or the ammo is the problem. Trouble shooting should be done one step at a time, logically. Trying this and trying that without structure is just a WAG or "shotgun" method...

Soundguy
03-13-2018, 01:25 PM
I too would try seating a hair shorter.. change the slide and spring geometry at point of contact.

Question. Does only the top round in a full mag do it?

If you drop the mags to 6/7 does it do it?

Lastly, make a few rounds, and if the lower COL doesn't help, dip lube the nose of the bullets in some alox or similar.

see what you get.

jmac2112
03-14-2018, 07:25 AM
Good suggestions here! First I will try shortening the length a bit, since I can do that for free. I can easily go .010-.015 shorter before the drive top drive band goes below the end of the casing. I could go shorter, but then I would have space between the casing and the bullet (the nose diameter of this bullet is smaller than the drive band diameter). If I had to do this, would it cause any problems?

I'll bring some lube to the range to put on the end of the top round if necessary. Also, I haven't really checked to see what happens if I start with only 6, or even 5, rounds in the mag.

If that doesn't work, I'll run some factory hardball through it and see what happens.

Again, thanks for all the input!

John

Dusty Bannister
03-14-2018, 08:16 AM
I have a bit of concern about the actual bullet that you are using. Some have excellent performance from the TL style bullets, and many do not. Absent from your information is the "sized to" bullet diameter. This is common for those that think the TL styles do not need to be sized at all. It is further complicated by adding to the bullet diameter with powder coating.

It is doubtful that the COWW alloy you are using is too soft. But is it possible that the PC you have added might be part of the interference created in chambering the loaded round. You comment that the bullet has some difficulty closing when using the slide release, and is slightly improved when you "slingshot" the slide. Perhaps that extra slide travel is forcing the cartridge into position. I suppose we are all assuming that the cartridge passes the plunk test, and you have dismounted the barrel to use the actual chamber for a loaded round gauge. But you are not telling anyone that either.

rond
03-14-2018, 09:35 AM
Are the boolits dragging in the magazine? The correct way to chamber a round in a 1911 with the slide locked back is to pull the slide to the rear, allowing the slide lock to disengage, then release the slide. The 1911 does not have a slide release, it is a slide lock. Most 1911s need a few hundred rounds through them to break in.

youngmman
03-14-2018, 09:41 AM
Try a different magazine that has the raised dimple toward the front of the follower. I have several 1911's from Springfield and had problems with different brands of magazines and the only ones that were consistently reliable had the dimple. I only use the Ed Brown 8 pack magazines or military issue clones now for all my 1911's since they are consistently reliable.

The above applies to a wide variety of cast bullets I cast from Lyman, H&G, Saeco, LBT and Accurate. The alloy used is 93/5/2 with a BHN of 14.

CJR
03-14-2018, 10:34 AM
Deleted message.

Soundguy
03-14-2018, 10:48 AM
I have a bit of concern about the actual bullet that you are using. Some have excellent performance from the TL style bullets, and many do not. Absent from your information is the "sized to" bullet diameter. This is common for those that think the TL styles do not need to be sized at all. It is further complicated by adding to the bullet diameter with powder coating.

It is doubtful that the COWW alloy you are using is too soft. But is it possible that the PC you have added might be part of the interference created in chambering the loaded round. You comment that the bullet has some difficulty closing when using the slide release, and is slightly improved when you "slingshot" the slide. Perhaps that extra slide travel is forcing the cartridge into position. I suppose we are all assuming that the cartridge passes the plunk test, and you have dismounted the barrel to use the actual chamber for a loaded round gauge. But you are not telling anyone that either.

agreed. is the bullet chambering by drop , fully into the barell?

Dan Cash
03-14-2018, 12:44 PM
An important point was made about magazines. Are you using 8 round or 7 round mags? Years ago, I had a Springfield Loaded .45 that was an absolute jam-o-matic with anything but mill surp 7 round mags. It kind of worked with soome top tier 8 rounders.

If you would like to try a different bullet, PM me your postal address and I will send you some Accurate 225 grain TC bullets to try. They work flawlessly in all of the 8 or so 1911s in the stable here.
Dan

jmac2112
03-14-2018, 01:36 PM
Hi,

A few quick answers:

The photos referenced were not posted by me.

My issue is with the nose of the boolit slamming straight into the ramp in the frame and lodging there. The barrel does not seem to be part of the problem.

I size the boolits to .4525, which is .001 over barrel size.

I perform the plunk test on each and every round using the barrel.

I know my 8 round mags do not have the dimple. I think the stock 7 rounders do, but I'll have to check when I get home.

Thanks to Dan Cash for the offer! Must run now, but I'll PM you later.

John

fredj338
03-14-2018, 02:18 PM
I always run a new gun with factory ball ammo before any handloads. This way I know the gun/mag works. Try some ball ammo. If that feeds then the mags are likely fine. I shoot coated range scrap, pretty soft. I don't have feeding issues in 5 diff 1911, 4 are bone stock.
BTW the OAL you quote as spec is saami max. OAL is always bullet & bbl specific. I can not load that bullet to 1.260" in several of my 1911s.

Dusty Bannister
03-14-2018, 02:22 PM
Still MIA is the Cartridge OAL in reference to the barrel hood.
.4525" seems a little large?
Looking at the Lee illustrations, there is not a whole lot of difference between the nose profile of the TL452-230-2R and the notoriously difficult to feed 452-228-1R. It will be interesting to see the results of the test with a different nose form. If it would help, I could prepare some Lee 452-230-TC which seem to feed freely in many handguns. They would be about .452" though. This is not a high pressure round.

jmac2112
03-14-2018, 06:49 PM
Still MIA is the Cartridge OAL in reference to the barrel hood.
.4525" seems a little large?
Looking at the Lee illustrations, there is not a whole lot of difference between the nose profile of the TL452-230-2R and the notoriously difficult to feed 452-228-1R. It will be interesting to see the results of the test with a different nose form. If it would help, I could prepare some Lee 452-230-TC which seem to feed freely in many handguns. They would be about .452" though. This is not a high pressure round.

Dusty,

I must be misunderstanding you--maybe I'm just shaky on some of the terminology. The .4525" figure I gave is the diameter that I size the boolits to, but I think you are asking for something else. Can you explain what you mean by cartridge OAL in reference to the barrel hood?

I appreciate your offer to make up some boolits for me, but I actually own the Lee 452-230-TC. I have loaded it for a different gun, but not for this 1911. I'll have to give it a try if the issues with my current boolit cannot be resolved.

Thanks,

John

Dusty Bannister
03-14-2018, 07:33 PM
I understand the bullets are sized to .4525" and I did comment that it seems a little large for a low pressure round that is giving feeding problems. I realize it is .001" larger than the groove diameter. The thing about the plunk test is two fold, in that the finished cartridge must fall freely into the chamber when the barrel is held muzzle down, and again drop freely when the barrel is held muzzle up. The second purpose of the plunk test is to verify that the base of the cartridge is flush or slightly below the top of the barrel hood when the barrel is held vertical. With absolutely no way to know what the correct cartridge over all length is for that bullet in that barrel, measurements against a book reference are just guess work.

You may not be considering that the powder coating added to the bullet diameter as well as the nose diameter which might also interfere with chambering depending upon the taper or absence of taper of the lands from the chamber. The reason I suggested the truncated Cone style is that the slope of the nose of the bullet is less likely to hit the lands as soon as the RN bullets. Thank you for the reply. Dusty

jmac2112
03-14-2018, 10:18 PM
OK, I think I see now. The way I arrived at the OAL I use is by making a dummy round and seating the boolit progressively deeper until there was no longer any interference with the lands. I then subtracted .010" from that figure just to be safe. Therefore the cartridge goes into the barrel as far as it possibly can, but there is no excessive gap between the lands in the barrel and the drive bands on the boolit.

In any case, as I mentioned earlier, this is not where I am experiencing a problem. The nose of the top round in the magazine slams into the ramp that is part of the frame and doesn't want to slide up the ramp.

To answer someone else's question (I think it was someone else), my stock 7-round mags do indeed have the dimple on the follower, while my 8-round mags do not. I have not found any difference between the two as far as this problem is concerned. I will make up some rounds with the boolits seated about .010"-.015" deeper and see if that makes a difference. And of course I will buy a box of factory hardball and compare that as well.

Thanks,

John

reddog81
03-14-2018, 11:19 PM
The plunk test is irrelevant if the round isn't making it into the chamber. The rounds in question are getting jammed into the feed ramp. The rounds a probably a bit to long. Based upon the posts I'd assume the rounds making it into the chamber are not causing any issues.

truckboss
03-14-2018, 11:28 PM
I shoot USPSA single stack,mostly 9mm and sometimes 45.Anyways I pc an HG 68 at 1.250 with any mag Wilson Chip McCormick or what ever i get ftf occasionally.When i shoot lubed my 1911s run 100%.My 9mm does the same.I think the pc melts and becomes sticky on the feed ramp.I switch from lube to pc and pc always gets ftf.When I shoot production class with my CZ and use pc it runs 100% The feed ramp on the CZ is like a Browning High Power,not as steep and the mag points the bullet right towards the center of the chamber.So try a differnt lube and see what happens.

Bazoo
03-14-2018, 11:42 PM
You should try downloading the mags by 1 to see if that helps or not also. I am going to vote its the powder coating causing the problem coupled with new mag springs making the top a touch hard to strip. I betcha if you loaded some non PC rounds with everything else exactly the same, it'd run. Course... I may be wrong too.

trixter
03-15-2018, 11:06 AM
I do not have a 1911, but do have a Springfield Armory XDm in 45acp. This is a double stack gun and I tried the Lee 452-200 1R and had issues at first. I kept shortening the OAL until it fed constantly. Then I tried the same boolit in 2R and it worked better, but I had to run it a little shorter than book COAL. I then switched to Lee TL452-200 SWC and like it a lot. I then tried the Lee 452-200 SWC (the H&G 68 clone), I like this one the best of all of them. Since I have started powder coating them with Eastwood Ford light blue, I like them even more. I have found that now I shoot a lot more before cleaning the barrel and it never looks fouled.
Consider me a happy shooter.
I have started using the same powder for 9mm too.

fredj338
03-15-2018, 02:53 PM
I shoot USPSA single stack,mostly 9mm and sometimes 45.Anyways I pc an HG 68 at 1.250 with any mag Wilson Chip McCormick or what ever i get ftf occasionally.When i shoot lubed my 1911s run 100%.My 9mm does the same.I think the pc melts and becomes sticky on the feed ramp.I switch from lube to pc and pc always gets ftf.When I shoot production class with my CZ and use pc it runs 100% The feed ramp on the CZ is like a Browning High Power,not as steep and the mag points the bullet right towards the center of the chamber.So try a differnt lube and see what happens.
How does the PC melt? You would have to get operating temps up well over 300deg & that just doesn't happen outside the chamber.
I run a 1911/9 Springfield. The 1st rd nose dive can happen because of the fully loaded magazine. A RN helps get the bullet up the ramp where a flat point or SWC will more likely drive straight into the ramp & FTF. This is solved by buying mags that work in your gun & I have found that can vary with each individual gun when talking 1911 designs. I went through 4 diff mags brands in the 1911/9 to find a 10rd that worked 100% of the time.

jmac2112
03-16-2018, 07:33 AM
OK, I've made up four different batches of ammo at 1.260, 1.255, 1.250 and 1.245. I'll be heading to the range this weekend sometime, and I'll let you know what happens.

Thanks!

John

Geezer in NH
03-16-2018, 08:50 PM
IMHO feed ramps should not have any visible machine marks on them. Feel able or not.

jmac2112
03-16-2018, 10:22 PM
IMHO feed ramps should not have any visible machine marks on them. Feel able or not.

I might have to have another go at it with a slightly coarser grit. Am I likely to screw anything up by removing only enough metal to get rid of these light marks?

Thanks,

John

Dusty Bannister
03-16-2018, 11:23 PM
Shoot the test loads first. One change at a time???

jmac2112
03-17-2018, 08:56 AM
Shoot the test loads first. One change at a time???

Absolutely! I meant that I might do that later on. I should have specified that.

Mitch
03-17-2018, 01:25 PM
+1 on the oal of the round my RO in 45acp will eat anything as long as you have the oal right.i shoot the 50/50 ww mix and it is just fine PC or lube sizes.good luck you will get there.I do agree with trying some hardball ammo just to make sure that the oal is the problem and not something else

jmac2112
03-18-2018, 06:17 PM
I went to the range today to try out a few different batches of ammo, each with a different OAL. If you guessed that my FTF problem could be solved by a shorter OAL, you're a winner! As you may recall, I was originally having problems with a length of 1.265. Things were actually significantly better at 1.260, and the problem went away at 1.255. 1.250 and 1.245 worked great as well, but there was no improvement over 1.255. I am relieved that it turned out to be an easy fix.

Thanks once more to all who offered suggestions!

John

35remington
03-20-2018, 06:56 PM
Thank goodness you did not polish the feed ramp.

Walter Laich
03-20-2018, 08:20 PM
I know my Commander took several hundred rounds for everything to wear in. Glad your problem was a simple fix.

I PC all my bullets now, except black powder ones, and won't be going back

jmac2112
03-21-2018, 08:01 AM
Thank goodness you did not polish the feed ramp.

Yep, always good to leave things alone whenever possible. In an earlier post, I mentioned that at one point I used some very fine sandpaper (1500 grit, I think) on the ramp because there were machining marks that I could see but not feel. I did not succeed in removing (or even diminishing) the marks, and I was afraid to get any more aggressive with it. In any case, it did not improve the FTF problem, and I moved on to playing with the OAL of the ammo.

I sense that there is an untold story behind your admonition. Care to share? I'm always interested in learning what NOT to do, and why.

Thanks,

John

243winxb
03-21-2018, 10:12 AM
Seen a bulge on 45 acp brass after firing in a 1911. The feed ramp was way over done, by removing to much of the chamber area. Hard to do with a low pressure round like the acp.

jmac2112
03-21-2018, 11:03 AM
Seen a bulge on 45 acp brass after firing in a 1911. The feed ramp was way over done, by removing to much of the chamber area. Hard to do with a low pressure round like the acp.

Interesting! Yes, I imagine that would be hard to do. You're talking about the ramp on the barrel, right? Just so we're all on the same page, I was referencing the ramp in the frame.

243winxb
03-21-2018, 04:09 PM
yes, barrel.