NOE 30 XCB, 30x60 XCB, 600 yards

[Larry Gibson]

I'm posting this not to cause any further consternation among some but simple because in another thread (now locked) I said I would post the results of my testing my 30x60 XCB rifle with the 30 XCB bullet at 2900 fps at 600 yards. This is simply the facts and results of that test I said I would report on as many have expressed interest to see the results.

The weather cooperated with a beautiful morning here in Arizona. Was at my shooting place in the desert at daybreak and got set up so 1st shot went down range at 0730. Temperature was 45 degrees and when I finished shooting at 1030 it was up to 60 degrees. The humidity was 25%. I staked the target (older NRA “B” target for 600 yard) on the hillside and put up the wind flag. The wind was very calm to begin with so I was able to get off 4 groups (three 10 shot and one 15 shot) before it got squirrelly. Even at the 2900 fps I’m shooting the 30 XCB at out of my 30x60 XCB rifle given the low BC the wind really pushes the bullet around at long range.

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Off to the right of the target a couple feet you can see a little black rock in the road. That’s my “spotter” target. About 2/3 the way to the flag pole is a couple large powder jugs filled with water, more on them in a bit. Repairing back to the 600 yard firing point I prepared a prone shooting position. From the rifle the target looked like this;

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I took 6 shots (3 foulers and then 3 confirm) to get “on” the sighter rock and then I put 3 rounds into the black powder jugs of water. I should have quit then and rebuilt my shooting position as I had just set the front rest on the bare rocks/gravel. That didn’t work well during the next 10 shots on the target as the feet of the rest dug into the ground. I knew I had dropped on down out of the group as the rest was not solid at all so I called that shot. I then went up and checked the Target and sure enough there was a shot down and away. Here is the target. The 9 shots that were "good calls", even with the unsettling rest, went into right at a 10” group.

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The ballistics from the “Applied Ballistics” program said 20.28 moa elevation correction was required to go from a 100 zero to a 600 yard zero. I had thus set the elevation on the Leupold 6.5x20 scope (zeroed at 100 yards) up 20 ¼ moa, looked good to me. However, I obviously need to go right ¾ moa for windage. The tears in the target are from rock splatter shooting at the “sighter” rock.

I pasted the bullet holes and tears and repaired back to the 600 yard point and rebuilt my prone position using a slab of plywood for the rest. Don’t know why I just didn’t do that in the 1st place…..

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It was a much more sold rest and position as the next group demonstrates. I adjusted the windage ¾ moa right…..should have gone another 1 ¼ moa right but what the hey…..can’t complain. The 10 shot group is just under 7”.

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Pasted those holes and wet back to the 600 yard point. I was waiting long enough between the groups so the barrel would cool and was giving it at least a minute between shots. The third group was interesting because I had given the windage another ½ moa right and then shot 3 “sighters” on the sighter rock and all appeared good. As I settled in on the target the wind flag began to move. I could not feel any wind movement where I was but it appeared a 1 -2 mph wind had picked up coming out of 10 o’clock. I just held steady and shot when the flag was in the same position (condition). In that small amount of wind the group moved 2 moa right or about 12”. The group size was a tudge less than 6”…..that’s moa accuracy at 600 yards!

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Again I pasted the holes and returned to the 600 yard point. I had 15 shots left and the wind was getting squirrelly now coming in from 11 o’clock and switching back and forth to the 1 o’clock. I left the zero alone and shot the 15 rounds trying to shoot when the wind was the same. I wasn't quite able to do that and the wind caught me several times. I should have given it a half moa more elevation because the head wind caused the bullet to slow down quicker with more drop. You can see the lateral dispersion also due to wind and how the POI dropped. Even so I was pleased with a 9” group with the 15 shots.

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All that took about 3 hours to shoot the 4 groups. By then, 10:30 am it was 60 degrees and the wind was still switching back and forth. I took 10 shots at the sighter with my suppressed .308W M70 with a M118 White box duplication load (LC Match cases, WLR primers, 41.5 gr IMR4895 and a 174 gr M118 bullet. I hit the sighter rock 6 times. I then shot a few rounds out of my Ruger OM Vaquero 44-40 at a couple pop cans. The morning had gone well.

Oh, almost forgot the powder jugs with water. I had set them tandem so at 600 yards the 30 XCBs would have to go through both. The right bullet was the 1st hit, then the left and finally the center shot. The jugs noticeably jumped when hit, especially the first hit. Here is the front;

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All three hits went through and through. Here is the back of the rear jug and you can see the 1st hit tumbled in the 2nd jug and burst the side.

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So that ended a very good morning with the average moa of the three 10 shot groups and the 15 shot last group at 1.3 moa. ……not too shabby for a cast bullet at 2900 fps out at 600 yards……..

[sigep1764]

Whoa Dang! You sir, have some reloading and shooting skills. I gotta ask, pics and details of the rifle?

[Time Killer]

Nice Shooting

[Survival Bill]

Awesome I am impressed amazing how much a little wind changes things I am working towards doing something similar later in the year as I get things setup on my end your post helps in setting things up like a solid rest to start with thanks for the post and the info that goes with it.

[Hannibal]

:popcorn:

As always, stellar shooting, stellar data and stellar explanations.

Nice job Mr. Gibson.

[Taterhead]

Fantastic write-up, and the great results on paper speak for themselves. Thank you for bringing us out to the range with you.

[Echo]

Hot ****, Larry! Way To Go!

[tomme boy]

You can't shoot cast bullets that far!

[pressonregardless]

Great shooting Larry !!

[BNE]

Good Bullet making, good shooting and nice write up. Thanks.

[dverna]

There are those that do and those that talk.....

Not many can do that MOA performance at 100 yards, let alone 600! And not even using a solid bench!!

Great report Larry and thanks for sharing.

[Larry Gibson]

Whoa Dang! You sir, have some reloading and shooting skills. I gotta ask, pics and details of the rifle?

It’s the rifle started out life as a CZ24 in 7.9mm and sometime during the war was captured and refurbished in Russia or Rumania and used by the Rumanians. It was imported into the US and sold at Big 5 to a friend of mine. He wanted a Malcom scope mounted on his Sharps so I did the D&T and mounting for the barreled action as he wanted the stock for another rifle. The 7.9mm barrel was really toast looking like a sewer pipe. I put a new 24” 30-06 barrel on it and bedded it in the Bell & Carlson Premier Stock. I also D&T’d it for the scope base, forged the bolt handle and put a Timney deluxe trigger on it. I used it for my ’06 pressure test rifle and as a loaner for hunting.

After several years of very successful testing of HV cast bullets (311466 and 30 XCB bullets) in my .308W M70 target rifle and my .308W M98 Palma rifle with 12 and 14” twists I theorized with a 16” twist barrel with a cartridge having 3 – 4 more gr capacity of AA4350 than the .308W perhaps 2900 + fps could be had while maintain less than 2 moa accuracy with cast bullets. I had found 2500 – 2600 fps was very possible with the Palma 14” twist 27.5” barrel with the .308W using the same 30×57 concept I came up with years ago for Mauser actions which is using shortened 30-06 dies and 30-06 brass to form the 30×57. The 30×57 has the came case capacity as the 308W yet retains the body taper to feed through Mauser actions w/o action modifications. Also standard ’06 dies and reamers can be used by shortening the dies and short chambering the barrel for the 30×57 cartridge. Discussions with Tim and sending him sample 30-57 cartridges led to the 30 XCB cartridge which is the same except it has a very tight neck (.337”). I formed a case giving 3 -4 more gr of case capacity with AA4350 powder and it turned out to be a 30×60…..about half way between the .308W and the 30-06. Cases were/are easily formed using the standard shortened ’06 dies and Winchester cases.

Thus I ordered a Broughton 32” Palma contoured barrel with a 16” twist. It has 3 lands and grooves. I had the barrel shipped to Tim and stripped the CZ24 rifle down to just the action and sent that to Tim. Tim did the barrel job giving a 31” finished barrel. I had form three 30×60 cases and sent them along with the action for Time to headspace the chamber on with just a crush feel as the bolt closed. Tim did an outstanding job of truing and barreling the action. The chambering is perfect. He also did the superb polish and bluing. He replaced the CZ24 bottom metal with that from an Argentine ’09 which added just that perfect ”custom” touch to it.

When I received the barreled action back from Tim I rebedded it into the B&C Premier stock. The scope on it in the picture is a Leupold 6×20 target. The rifle holds MOA to 400 yards with cast 30 XCB bullets at 2900+ fps. (after the thorough testing of that load (9 February, 2018) it holds 1.3 moa accuracy to 600 yards. I’ve tested several other cast bullets in this rifle from the 311359, NOE 311465 up through the Lyman 311041 and found accuracy to also be very good at truly high velocity. The only jacketed bullets I’ve shot through it were Speer 130 gr HPs. The rifle holds 1/2 moa at 3300+ fps and is super deadly on varmints.

I could not be happier. I am going to order another Broughton 32” Palma contour barrel with a 12” twist for a M70 I have. I plan on Tim building a long range rifle for me chambered in 30-06. He just built one for a friend of mine on a M700 action and it is very accurate out to 1000 yards so far. It should, with 175 MKs or 178 VLDs hold to 1400+ yards….perhaps a mile. Velocity with those bullets and the long barrel is 2950 – 3000 fps.

The creation of this 30x60 rifle for high velocity cast bullet shooting certainly makes it one of my most prized rifles.

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The cartridges shown are (left to right); the 308 CBC, the .308W, the 3x57, the 30x60 XCB and the 30-06. The 308 CBC is formed from the .308W. The 30x57 and the 30x60 XCB are formed from Winchester 30-06 cases in shortened 30-06 dies.

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[bullseye67]

Good evening,
Larry; those are exactly the results I was expecting to see... That rifle “Dawn” really is a beauty of a cast boolit shooter. If I understand right, that is the exact combination I was shooting when I visited and put “Dawn” through her paces. Only 300 paces.... I would have really enjoyed trying her out at those longer ranges.
Excellent write up and it just shows what can be done.
Can’t wait for my 15 twist 30-06 to be finished..... I am looking for results similar to yours.
Have an awesome week!!!!

[Larry Gibson]

Yes, that is the exact combination you shot. I'm also looking forward to the completion of your rifle. I've no doubt you will find considerable success at high velocity with it. Waiting your reports.

[kens]

Awesome Larry,
What is the 308 CBC?

Is that a 30-06 die shortened to 300Savage overall length?

[Larry Gibson]

kens

The 308 CBC is made with a shortened .308W die. It has a case capacity slightly less than the 300 Savage but has the neck length of the 30-06. I built it years ago on a M93 Spanish action that I also converted to cock on opening. I used a new 2 groove 'A3 barrel. I was thinking with a case with the '06 neck to keep the lube grooves of the 311284 in it with the GC at the base of the neck and that had 100% load density with 4895 giving 2200 fps would be just the ticket. Back then (1980) I didn't understand the adverse affect of RPM on cast bullets. Thus best accuracy still came between 1750 and 1850 fps with the 311284, just the same as it did in any 30-06. Knowing what I know now I should have used a 12" or 14" twist barrel. Then I would have gotten great accuracy at the desired 2200 fps with that cartridge. We live and learn.......a very good cast bullet cartridge though.

I've a M700 22-250 that, when shot out, I may have goodsteel put a 26" barrel with a 14" twist on it. I'll have him chamber it in 308 CBC. That's easily done as the chamber is cut with a tight neck .308W to headspace tightly on the shoulder of formed cases with short necks....3 such cases is sufficient. Then a standard 30-6 match reamer is used to length the chamber neck to '06 length. With 308 CBC cases formed from LC Match or M80 cases the necks are turned to a nice tight fit. No custom dies needed either as standard FL, NS and seaters can easily be shortened.

With a 311041 at 2500 fps +/- it should make an excellent cast bullet hunting rifle. Or if a heavier barrel and BR stock were added it should make an excellent CBA BR match rifle.

[kens]

Larry,
If you run 308W brass thru a 300Savage FL die, you get about the same result?? Headspace it to standard 300Sav, size with standard 300Sav dies, with just a longer throat to suit?
I had asked about this on a similar forum and got all sorts of answers why it couldn't be done.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
If you run 308W brass thru a 300Savage FL die, you get about the same result?? Headspace it to standard 300Sav, size with standard 300Sav dies, with just a longer throat to suit?
I had asked about this on a similar forum and got all sorts of answers why it couldn't be done.

kens

I never said you couldn't form cases that way or chamber a rifle that way, there's no reason you can't do it that way. Do it that way if you want. You ask on other threads and now on this thread (nothing to do with the topic of this thread BTW) about the 308 CBC. I told you the reasons I did what I did to make my own 308 CBC. You do want to do it your way, fine. I did it my way and I gave you the honest reasons why I chose to make the 308 CBC the way I did.

Don't understand you having heartburn over me not doing what you'd do, especially when I made my 308 CBC years before you made your suggestion on this forum of how you'd do it.....:confused:

How about we stick to the topic of this thread? By all means make your version of the cartridge and build your own rifle for it. Then develop a good cast bullet load at 2900 fps and go shoot at 600 yards. Then we can compare accuracy of your cartridge vs. the 30x60, which I used in this thread, at 600 yards.......:drinks:

[Bama]

Really nice

[waco]

So how was that on your neck and back Larry shooting from the prone position uphill like that? I've tried to do it and it kills me.
Can I also ask how big your target is and how tall is that wind flag?
Thanks a lot.
Waco

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

Actually it wasn't that much "uphill". It was less than 3 degrees uphill from the 600 yard shooting position to the target. The 1st picture in my post was taken at the base of the hill less than 50 yards horizontal distance from the target. From the shooting position at 600 yards it also is a slight decline to the base of that hill as seen in the 2nd picture. Have to admit it's easier getting down into a prone position than getting up anymore. Also I've learned to take a bit higher position by using a higher front rest and rear sand bag. If you enlarger the 4th picture you'll see the 2 boards under the rear sand bag to raise it up. Thus I've learned to get into as comfortable yet stable position as I can.

Even then I try not to stay in position "on the rifle" too long. I lay a bit on my side relieving the strain on the neck between shots while letting the barrel cool. Even then I don't stay down in position much longer than 20 minutes any more. Appreciate the concern.

[waco]

So how big is the target, and how tall is the wind flag?. Thanks.

[Larry Gibson]

So how big is the target, and how tall is the wind flag?. Thanks.

The target backing (cardboard) is roughly 4' x 4'. Glued on to it is the old NRA High Power 600 yard "B" Decimal target repair center. The bull (black) is 24" in diameter, the "X" ring is 6", the 10 ring is 12", the 9 ring is 18", the 8 ring (black) is 24" and the 7 ring is 36". The new "B" Decimal target (not used in this test) is the same except the bull (black) also covers the 7 ring.

The flag pole is 16' tall and the flag is 10' long x 40" wide.

[waco]

Dang. So how much wind does it take to move a 10’x40” flag?
We use Uber thin 1 1/2” vinyl streamers. They pick up the slightest breeze.
They come in neon colors too. Easy to see.

[Larry Gibson]

Such range flags have been used for well over 100 years. I believe they are still required during NRA High Power Matches. It really does not take much wind to move the flag. I use the wind calculation "cheat sheet" pictured when shooting. When my wife made the flag for me I set the pole up within a few feet of the wind meter at my house. I calibrated the angles based on wind reading of that meter and my hand held wind meter I use in the field. Those are noted on the cheat sheet in mph. A ruffle will move the flag to the side of the pole in the direction of the wind. A 1 mph wind will move the tail out from the pole in the direction of the wind.

Once you learn to read range flags they are really helpful at long range. Small streamers are really nice on short 100 and 200 yard ranges but at longer ranges they do not tell you what the wind is doing at max ordinate of the bullets flight. Reading the mirage is also an excellent method if you can see mirage. Here in the desert with very low humidity many times there is no mirage.

When reading mirage the spotting scope should be used with the focus set short of the target. Using the scope on the rifle can give you a false reading due to mirage coming off the barrel as the barrel heats up. "Reading" the wind is a skill picked up through practice. It is an important skill to learn when shooting at longer ranges.

However, even at shorter ranges such at 100 yards many over look the affect the wind has on cast bullets with their attendant low BCs. The cause of many small flyers or opening of groups is credited to other factors when in reality it is the wind.

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[rockrat]

Thanks Larry for the write-up.

[oldblinddog]

Yes, thanks for the write up. Nice shooting too.

[Messy bear]

Impressive! I couldn't begin to shoot that well at 600 with my 308 and jackets! Thanks for posting.

[wquiles]

Great thread!

I recently started casting and reloading for a new Savage 308 Model 10 (police model, 18.5", 1-10, threaded) using a Ranch Dog hunting bullet (NOE TL310-180 GC), but I wanted to try a lighter, and more target/accurate bullet, so I just ordered a 4x cavity NOE 30 XCB to "play" with. This thread and similars threads on the 30 XCB convinced me to try it :)

Will

[oldblinddog]

Then read this: http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,533.0.html if you haven’t already.

[wquiles]

Awesome - thanks for the link :)

[Larry Gibson]

wquiles

I used the same 10" test rifle with one of the 30 XCB loads used in that NOE thread at 500 yards. The results are listed in this thread.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?354391-308-High-Velocity-at-500-yards

[Adam20]

What alloy were you using, I read it twice to make sure I did not miss it.
Nice shooting.

[Larry Gibson]

Lyman #2 WQ'd out of the mould.

[eric123]

Thank you for the write-up...

[oldblinddog]

Made it to the range this afternoon to test more loads in the 17 twist Krieger barrel Remington:
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The first group were just sighters to warm up the rifle. These are the same load as the others but they are loaded in brass that has small lube dents. As noted on the target, these were underweight culls.
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Then I tried some bullets cast about 3 months ago that were air cooled.
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Finally, these were cast about two weeks ago (I think... I’ve slept since then) that were WQ’d out of the mold. All were lubed with Carnauba Red 2700+.
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I have not chronographed these yet. Just looking for the path that leads to the most accurate load. Also, I usually chrono the loads on the 50 yd range because it is easier to work there.

[Larry Gibson]

You might try a tudge slower powder than RL17. I found AA4350 to be the best performer in 14" twist .308W Palma rifle and my 30x60 XCB rifle.

[oldblinddog]

I intend to. I haven’t found any yet, but then, I’ve been too busy to look. I have both IMR and H4350.

[Larry Gibson]

Try both of those......never know.

[oldblinddog]

Remington 700 .308 Win. 1-17” Next step is to chronograph then go to the 500 M range.
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[Larry Gibson]

47 gr RL22 under the 30 XCB ran 2408 (muzzle) fps out of my 27.6" barrel Palma .308W with 14" twist. Be interesting to see what you get in your 17" twist barrel. It should hold sonic to 500m at 2400 fps.