Pound Cast instructions (for rifle chamber)

[geargnasher]

Good job, Tim. I think that gets the idea across pretty well.

One thing I do differently, though I doubt it really matters that much, is use WW alloy to fill the case rather than pure. Sometimes the shoulder telescopes a bit during the pounding, and WW alloy helps support it a bit more. Heating the entire case with a torch helps get the bubbles out for sure, as does tapping the case while heating. One thing that I've found really helps is to use a case that was fired in that particular chamber, UNsized. Point muzzle up when inserting the pound slug because the boolit will fall out of the unsized neck otherwise.

Here's an article I wrote elsewhere describing essentially the same thing:



Part one:

Following the statement "Fit is King" and considering first the static part of fit, we must learn exactly what is the dimensional goal we wish to achieve with our fixed ammunition. The most logical method I've found to do this is to make a sturdy impression of the rifle's chamber and throat from which detailed measurements can be taken.

While several common methods exist to cast impressions of chambers, I personally prefer the impact or "pound casting" method, and will limit my own discussion here to this type. (everyone else feel free to add descriptions of other methods that work for you) This method was invented, I believe, by some clever cast-bullet shooter friends of mine who were seeking an inexpensive and simple method of getting the rifle's critical internal measurements without the hassle associated with pouring molten Cerrosafe, sulphur, or other things directly into the chamber.

Essentially, a "pound cast" is made by installing a lead-filled cartridge case and malleable slug into the chamber and throat, locking the breech, and expanding the whole thing to fit the chamber and throat area completely via hydraulic force applied by a rod inserted through the muzzle. Here's a step-by-step general idea of how I do it, which is by no means intended to be comprehensive or absolute.

1. Clean the rifle's chamber, throat, breech face, breech locking mechanism, and bore with brushes and solvent, dry and put a thin film of oil the chamber and throat. Use a HEAVY oil, such as gear lube or case lube to prevent sticking and make it easier to extract the slug after forming. Apply grease or oil to the locking mechanism per normal lubrication practices.

2. Obtain a roll of vinyl electrician's tape, a brass or steel rod longer than the barrel but that will insert into the barrel when wrapped in one layer the tape, a medium hammer, a gas check of the caliber of the gun being casted, a sacrificial cartridge case that has been fired in the gun and still has the primer intact, a propane or other hand-held torch, large spoon, a heavy-for-caliber bullet mould or slug mould made with a bore-diameter hole drilled in a piece of hardwood, enough pure lead to cast several heavy (long) bullets or slugs, enough wheel weight or similar-hardness alloy to fill the cartridge case, and some pliers.

3. Melt the wheel-weight (or similar) metal in the spoon with the torch, heat the top half of the case enough to anneal it (dull glow ok, and pour the molten metal into the case while it's still hot. Fill to about halfway up the neck with the alloy and allow it to cool. Grasping the case with pliers and gently lifting and tapping the case head on a solid surface and re-applying heat to keep the alloy melted for a few more seconds will help dislodge air pockets and settle the alloy.

4. Using the same spoon, cast some heavy bullets using pure lead, or make a slug mould that will cast a cylinder of bore diameter that is about 1/2" longer than the longest "standard" bullet the gun is intended to fire. This is a general idea, you just want enough metal to fill what's left in the case neck, the whole throat, and the origin of the rifling.

5. Clean and oil the alloy-filled case, oil and install the dead-soft bullet or slug into the mouth by hand, and insert it into the chamber. Force the action closed behind it and place the gun muzzle up with the buttplate on a firm, non-marring surface (like a clean work mat or cardboard).

6. If a gas check is available, start it into the muzzle squarely with a punch, concave side up. Wrap the metal rod with a closely spiraled, single layer of electrician's tape to protect the bore, and build bore-diameter "bushings" for a reasonably snug, centering fit on the ends and middle of the rod if one layer of tape isn't sufficient to support the rod in the center of the bore. Use the rod to push the check all the way to contact the slug, making sure the tip of the rod is captured inside the cup of the check and that the check hasn't gotten turned sideways. Sometimes a fired .22 rimfire case or pistol cartridge case can be used instead of a gas check depending on the caliber of the rifle. The object is to keep the tip of the rod from sinking and sticking into the soft lead. The check provides a sort of piston and separation point.

7. Hold the rifle and support the rod at the muzzle securely with one hand, and firmly tap the end of the rod with the hammer to compress the alloy and annealed case within the chamber. You should be able to feel the rod sink as the metal swages to the form of the throat and chamber, and suddenly the blows should begin to feel very solid. Once it feels like the rod isn't going to go any deeper, invert the gun while holding the rod in place, place the tip of the rod on a solid surface (floor) and open the breech while leaning on the buttstock to apply pressure to the rod. Pushing on the rod while opening the breech will aid in extraction and help prevent broken extractor mechanisms.

8. After removal, inspect the pound cast for complete fillout. It doesn't have to be pretty, just filled enough to measure accurately in the critical places such as both ends of the neck, total chamber length, throat entrance, and the entire throat up through the ball seat and into the full land height.

9. Now you have something to measure and keep around that won't shrink, dry out, or change with time, and will have a much better idea of the fit parameters of the particular rifle.

Here's a not-so-great picture of several pound casts together with some ammunition built to closely fit the chambers and throats based upon them. Should be close enough to get the idea.

http://i1328.photobucket.com/albums/w538/Geargnasher/poundcast_zps0b5871c1.jpg (http://s1328.photobucket.com/user/Geargnasher/media/poundcast_zps0b5871c1.jpg.html)

Gear

[Ghost101]

Once again Tim, Outstanding post. I don't have a say in the matters, but yes on the Sticky. From your original post I have filled the cases of my rifle brass as explained- even better now. I was just not real sure of the follow thru.

Thank You

Ghost101

[geargnasher]

So again, why did Tim bring this up? He's trying to help us make a tool for building better cast boolit ammunition for our rifles. Unlike jacketed bullets, our cast boolits are delicate and easily damaged during the reloading process and firing process, so we must support them any way we can to give them a proper, accurate launch.

Here's a little more on that....

Part II:

Now that you have a chamber cast, what's next?

I'll try to outline some of the things I do in a very general way, but much of it is subjective and dependent on the individual gun.

The first order of business is to determine how large of a bullet the rifle will chamber and fire without scraping the bullet on the throat entrance. As I mentioned in the "Fit" article*, I've found the best accuracy usually occurs in rifles that have their bullets fitted very closely to the throat entrance dimension. This is not a fast rule for every rifle, but a general approach only. To obtain this measurement, simply measure the step in front of the end of the chamber, right against the base of the step, and PLEASE use a quality, name-brand 0-1" MICROMETER, not your Chinese calipers, ok? [smilie=b:

Next, I like to measure both ends and the middle of the neck to determine taper, if any, and the essential chamber neck dimension. Again, as mentioned in the "Fit" thread, the loaded case neck-to-chamber-neck clearance needs to be minimal, on the order of half a thousandth or so, and certainly less than one thousandth, for maximum bullet support during firing. Excessive clearance here is almost chronic with production rifles, and is probably the single most accuracy-destroying clearance of all of them.

To establish how much loaded chamber neck clearance you will have, subtract two case-neck-thickness diameters and the throat entrance diameter from the average chamber neck diameter. For example, a .30-'06 chamber neck might measure .3435" in the middle, and brass is typically .0135" thick, or .027" total. The throat entrance is .3105". Subtract .027" and .3105 from .3435" and you will end up with .006". SIX thousandths total neck clearance is unfortunately common since it promotes safe chambering and firing of jacketed bullets and the jackets don't seem to mind being launched crooked or having a lot of gas blow around them before engraving, but cast bullets suffer mightily through this, ESPECIALLY at high velocity. I believe that this excessive chamber neck clearance is the principle reason why there seems to be such a low "accurate velocity" limit when shooting cast bullets in rifles, and why they are traditionally launched with low pressure charges of fast-burning powder. In the case prep thread I will explore methods of achieving smaller case neck clearance, and maybe in the #10 article I will discuss some techniques that sometimes improve accuracy when excessive neck clearances cannot be remedied.

The next point of interest is the throat shape. Matching the bullet's nose profile as closely as possible to the throat dimensions and shape will greatly increase accuracy in most instances vs. a bullet that simply has a bore-riding nose and parallel driving bands sized to the "common knowledge" dimension of .001" larger than barrel groove diameter. This doesn't mean that two-dimensional bullets fitted well to the bore and throat entrance can't shoot well out of a gun with a long taper to the throat, for indeed they do sometimes, but generally it's more difficult to achieve or maintain accuracy as velocity is increased, or get excellent accuracy in the first place, if the nose isn't shaped like and fully supported by the throat when chambered and during firing.

Notice that I didn't "slug" the entire bore and measure the groove dimension? That's because I base bullet size on throat entrance diameter, which is 99.5% of the time (H&R .38-55 being an exception) larger than groove and the chamber necks are almost always large enough to accept a cartridge loaded with a throat-entrance-diameter bullet.

Those are the basics of bullet fit based upon pound cast dimensions, I'll describe more about fitting the cartridge case itself to the chamber in the case prep article.**

Gear

*"Fit Is King" is a separate reference not yet published here.
**"Case Prep for Accuracy" is an additional article.

[slim1836]

Tim,

Thanks for the education, clear, concise, and helpful.

Slim

[geargnasher]

Tim, if you get a chance, take a pic of a .308 cartridge loaded with a .310" cast boolit, with your mic on the case neck somewhere in the middle. I'll bet it's around .338", giving about .009" total clearance. With that much room, what do you suppose happens to the driving portion of the boolit when the powder is touched off? It's a wonder we can shoot as well as we do out of "factory" chambers, isn't it?

Most "benchrest" competitors shooting jacketed bullets strive for half a thousandth or less clearance in the neck area. Much can be learned from them, but with production brass and factory chambers, close fit is usually impossible to achieve. There are ways, though, to either eliminate the fit issue or work around it, once one has made a pound cast and measured it as Tim described and pictured.

My favorite new way to achieve proper loaded neck fit is to ship a barrel and action to Malcolm Ballistic Tool and have it built with a proper reamer, then just a light neck turn for final precision fit gets the last few "tenths" just right.

Gear

[Garyshome]

Nice job! Good info!

[MT Gianni]

Tim, your common hammer appears to be a 2 lb'er. Veral stated to use a heavy hammer with light blows and that a light hammer with heavy blows was a sure reciepe for a stuck rod. Good write up, i have used 2-4 lb hammers but use whatever heavy your wrists will allow.

[geargnasher]

Yes, HEAVY hammer, light but firm taps. Hitting the rod end squarely and firmly, with controlled follow through is also important, same as it is with a golf or bat swing. 6-8" lead-off with the hammer does it. No using a tack hammer and swinging from behind the head!

Gear

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[dromia]

Texasmac has also done an excellent article on impact casting and other methods which is linked here on Cast Boolits which is well worth a read.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Discussion_on_Case_Lengths_Chamber_Casts_and_Impac t_Impression.html

Rather than use a gas check I put a plug of kitchen towel down on top of the slug, this forms a compact plug that stops the rod depressing into the bullet and the chance of lead flow round the base of the rod. It just pops out with the impact cast and there is no risk of getting a copper ring lodged in the barrel

[MBTcustom]

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[freebullet]

Excellent thread, & a fine example of why I joined this forum instead of lurking off info. Thank you, its priceless.

I have a question though.
In the photos there is a lot of lead just ahead of the case neck. Is that how long your case length could be in that weapon? As in potentially eliminating needless case trimming?

[geargnasher]

Excellent thread, & a fine example of why I joined this forum instead of lurking off info. Thank you, its priceless.

I have a question though.
In the photos there is a lot of lead just ahead of the case neck. Is that how long your case length could be in that weapon? As in potentially eliminating needless case trimming?

It depends, but usually so. One can tell by measuring with calipers the approximate length of the chamber on the slug how long the brass can be. Most chambers are rather "generous" in all directions. Simply observing the brass/lead line on the pound cast can be a bit deceiving since the case mouth can flow back slightly as the impression is made.

Look at the picture I posted above and you can sort of see the chambers vs. brass length.

Gear

[runfiverun]

yep that is really how long the chambers neck is.
quite often they will end with a little taper here and not an abrupt square edge.
the little taper there gives you a mis-leading look at things so you need to put the mic on it too to be sure of how long your brass can be.
many are surprised to find they have been doing all that work trimming their brass only to find out their chamber will take .xxx longer brass than they have been making.

if you don't fill this area with brass the boolit might be trying to when you fire the cartridge this is called riveting.

[williamwaco]

QUESTION?

You have annealed the neck of the cartridge case.
Does the neck of the cartridge case expand to fill the neck of the chamber ?

That would also be good info to have.

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[mdi]

Shoot full of holes? Baloney! You've given us a very good method, described in detail of how to get a "cast" of some critical dimensions of our guns. I have seen other methods, but like the "goodsteel" method quite a bit. Thank you...

[geargnasher]

Cerrosafe actually works pretty well, but you really have to pay attention to age time and use the shrinkage chart to get accurate measurements. The pound cast is basically free and permanent. Less messy too.

Gear

[MBTcustom]

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[Ghost101]

Thank you for the pictures. Very helpful. I have my brass full of lead per one of your posts but haven't followed thru with everything else.
GoodSteel thank you once again for teaching me.

Ghost101

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[geargnasher]

Hey Tim, there's a fella in the smokeless PP forum having trouble getting a Cerrosafe mess out of his chamber, got any tips for him?

Gear

[btroj]

Maybe someday I will have a colorful rifle in need of an impact cast.............

[MBTcustom]

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[SgtDog0311]

goodsteel, Green Lizzard and I have done this before but this time we tried to follow the few places where your instructions varied a bit from what we've done in the past. This one (1899DOB Marlin 1893 in 38-55)came out very well I thought. Thanks for taking the time. This is a good read with great tips!

[MBTcustom]

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[SgtDog0311]

Ok Tim, Now you have me curious. We did this as an afterthought while working on the thoat of a 32-20. Actually have a pretty lengthy thread started on Marlinowners that started out with my novice questions about throat reaming.

So now, if I understand you correctly you are commenting on the leade or lack thereof? I actully thought it was a little abrupt but it was so much better than the 32-20 before we solved that problem that I haven't stumbled on it too hard yet. But the rifle is leading! And doing so with what you'd think was a properly sized and lubed bullet, with a pretty anemic load, as in 1250ish fps.

So, I'd love to hear what conclusions you'd make having a good look at that chamber cast?? Are you thinking it could benefit from a throat reamer with a shallow taper?

I was thinking about starting with some paper patch, maybe, if that doesn't help, even a 'very light' firelapping (not sold on that yet) and see if that more modest polishing approach might eliminate the leading - that is if I also go down to near-bore size on the bullet.

[BNE]

Sticky!

[barrabruce]

I make a lap cast by putting the cleaning rod up near the muzzle of the gun with a wad to seal it.

I use that as my pound slug from the muzzle after I have taken it out.
A cold barrel will shrink the cast for an easy fit.

Seems to make an easier to pound slug without having to bump up lube grooves.

Just another way

[user55645]

What is the largest caliber you've tried this on?
Do you find it gets quite difficult at a certain point?

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[geargnasher]

I've done three .45 Colts, a .45/70, and a Shilen 45/90. Piece of cake. The bigger bores are actually easier due to being able to use a bigger, stiffer rod (hardened all-thread wrapped in tape).

Gear

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[robroy]

I did my Ruger 77/22hornet using approximately the method discribed here. A piece of 3/16 CRS rod and a 1 pound ball pean did just fine. I'd love to post a picture of it but it got knocked off the bench and into a black hole that likes to swallow things like that. Got one in the laundry that likes the occasional single sock[smilie=1:.

[fastfire]

I haven't done the pound cast yet but wondering how hard is it to get the gas check started in the barrel?
Worried about messing up the crown starting the gas check?????

[dromia]

Don't use a gas check use a good wad of tissue paper, far easier.

Texas Macs instructions and take on the various methods of getting impressions is very help full.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Discussion_on_Case_Lengths_Chamber_Casts_and_Impac t_Impression.html

[fastfire]

Thank You.

[geargnasher]

The gas check doesn't need to be started from the muzzle end. There are other good ways, I just prefer the gas check because it is a virtual guarantee that the tip of the rod won't jump against the lands and ding them when struck.

Gear

[btroj]

Ok, here is a rough cast of my Marlin in 357.

http://i1348.photobucket.com/albums/p733/Btroj/image_zps2d320258.jpg (http://s1348.photobucket.com/user/Btroj/media/image_zps2d320258.jpg.html)

Notice the sharp entrance to the lands. I think this is why is rifle hates any SWC bullet. They just don't enter square to the bore at all. The 359640 shoots better at 100 than any SWC will do at 50. Faster is better no matter what the bullet.

It almost looks like the chamber is cut with a longer than needed case section then it ends sharply.

Big question is what to do about it.

[geargnasher]

Eeeuuuwww. That looks like my NEF .45 Colt throat. Marlin is famous for reaming chambers with no step at the end of the case mouth and then, somewhere up there in front, having an abrupt slant right into the grooves. Best bet is use the largest boolit that will chamber and have a short bore-rider (or as long as the action can handle) and a concave transition to the bearing diameter that matches the throat angle. You won't be able to fill it all, but you can pilot the nose and make sure the back stays straight in line with the bore until the base clears the case mouth. By then, hopefully enough of the front is engraved straight to hold things together while the base band spans the chasm. This is one place where buffer will help. Buffer won't expand the case around the boolit before the boolit moves (like burning powder will), but rather pushes it like a piston in a syringe. This helps keep the base of the boolit from collapsing to one side before it gains the support of the bore. Buffer also helps keep the lube from getting blown out of the grooves prematurely.


Sumphin' like this from Tom, but with less bore-rider and more front band (and of course in 35 caliber):

http://accuratemolds.com/img/bullets/catalogue/31-125B.png


Gear

[freebullet]

Btroj wrote ' Big question is what to do about it."

Head north to my place drop it off and forget about it. I'll feed it what it likes, I promise.

[btroj]

Nope. This sucker is staying with me. I spent way too much making it shoot decently.

Right now it gets nothing but 359640 HPs over WC820 to give 1600 plus fps.

Gear, I will try and see of those bullets will chamber if left unsized. If they will then I can get them to drop around .361.

I will say that this rifle hates the Lyman 358156 despite all the glowing comments from others with a similar rifle. By hate I mean 6 inch groups at 50 yards.

[freebullet]

Lol, that's good nuff fer a deer, its like 357 buckshot. I was thinking of ordering Swede's 180wfn fer the gp100, that long fat boolit may do better.

[fatelvis]

Texasmac has also done an excellent article on impact casting and other methods which is linked here on Cast Boolits which is well worth a read.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Discussion_on_Case_Lengths_Chamber_Casts_and_Impac t_Impression.html
Wow, thank you for posting that link. I just went back and remeasured my 303 Brit Cerro casting, and got different measurements than previously thought, when simply measuring my year old casting. (Didn't write down the 1 hour measuremnts, DOH!) I was just subtracting the .0025" from my measurement.

[ncbearman]

Gentlemen,

Thank you. I would like to add that I made a (pistol) chamber cast to a .40 of my friends and a .45 of mine infinitely more accurate by doing this. Gear helped me through it 2 years ago. One of the first experiences I had on this forum. Here is the result out of the .40 S&W that Gear said I did "perfect". Comin from him I impressed even myself. It pays to take the time to read as much as you can on here. I bet there is something about everything here. Thanks again guys!

100561

[BIGRED]

Can someone provide a link or picture of a cast showing the places i should be measuring and what it means. i have a 35 rem Marlin and i really think i need to do this pound cast. but without the knowledge of what i am looking for, i fear it is pointless.

[MBTcustom]

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[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[btroj]

Well done Tim. It does pay to have a lathe and some know how. If that casting doesn't tell you all there is to know about the throat and leade then you are making stuff up to worry over.

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Question:
Is it wise for a first attempt at a pound cast (for this boolit caster) to be on a
1894 30-40 Krag sporter ?

I worry about that one and only locking lug on the bolt.

I have slugged the barrel .3135 x .0301
I figured when I get a large enough boolit, and play with the seating depth, I may get close enough. But there is the thing that, I won't know how much the throat is eroded.

Thanks for any advice,
Jon

[Pb2au]

^^^^^What he said.
I am in exactly the same boat. I want to proceed with caution on my venerable and honorable Krag.

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[Pb2au]

Roger Wilco.
This might be a situation where I just pony up and buy a hunk of Cerro-safe and cast it conventionally.
Thanks for the advice!

Edit;
Goodsteel, when I read your response, all that was up was "Proceed with caution," which I interpreted to read, "not feeling to warm and fuzzy on this plan, but PB2au, you are a grown boy, so carry on"
Now that the post is complete, I understand fully what you are saying.
Thanks!

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

I would proceed with caution, but follow the instructions given as closely as possible and you will be OK.
The worst thing that can happen is that you get a slug stuck in the throat, at which point you can get it out as easily as you put it in.
I believe there will be a very informative post forthcoming that will describe this process in detail.

Are you sure ?
I think the worst thing is cracking/breaking the one locking lug off of the bolt.

after I posted in this thread, I kind of already decided that this old Krag is probably never going to be my choice for a accuracy project ...that a throat casting/custom mold will offer. I've got others I rather use. It's mostly that this old thing has such a large size bore, and needing a "out-of-the-norm" mold, I just thought that a custom mold wasn't much more.

So anyway, thanks for the advice, but I'm going to keep my ham fists away from pound casting the throat of this Krag.
Jon

[Pb2au]

Goodsteel,
"More advanced pound casting for those of you with a lathe"
This addendum to your tutorial is the ticket. I recently did a pound cast of my latest Mauser and found that it was not long enough to capture the leade and the beginning of the rifling.
Looks like I will be heading into the machine shop soon.
Thanks for sharing.

[Rufus28]

My bullet do not release quickly out of the mold. I have to hammer it out with a piece of wood. I do smoke my molds with a lighter. What can i don to get the bullets out of the mold quickly? Advice would be appreciated

[ncbearman]

My bullet do not release quickly out of the mold. I have to hammer it out with a piece of wood. I do smoke my molds with a lighter. What can i don to get the bullets out of the mold quickly? Advice would be appreciated

Wrong thread, but KROIL is your best friend. Clean moulds well, then use Kroil each time after casting, and it will rain boolits.

[dromia]

In relation to damaging an action with this method, so long as the action is tight and fully in battery then I wouldn't worry, you are unlikely to generate the same pressure on the action as an actual round would generating up to 40,000 CUP.

[MBTcustom]

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[62chevy]

I need to just make a video.



YES! PLEASE do!! Getting ready to do my first and it would be very helpful.

[alamogunr]

Tim: Several years ago Ed Wosika(sp?) published an article in The Fouling Shot calling the process "Impact Throat Castings". In it he listed sizes of drill rod for various calibers from .22 to .45. His contention was that if the rod fit the bore closely, that the lands would not be damaged. I bought all those rods. I think it cost me about $25-30 from MSC. So far I've only used 3 or 4 of the rods.

Having said this, I think I like your method better, although it differs little from his. Your pictures and explanations along with comments and clarification from others is a great help.

[pretzelxx]

Thank you. Love the information on this thread.

[DeanWinchester]

Heres one I made today. Still working on how to interpret all the data. It wasn't hard at all. I'm going to make another tomorrow with the brass trimmed further back.


http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/DSC03130_zps826d1999.jpg
http://i1216.photobucket.com/albums/dd371/Reloadingfool/DSC03146_zpsebd67955.jpg

[DeanWinchester]

This measures .311 right in front of the step which is what I've been sizing to. Measuring over the rifled area gets me about .3104
The neck is measuring .3450 on the pound cast. A fired pc of brass measures .3445 and a loaded round is measuring .340.
What would be some good advice on tightening that up?

Also, how do I use this pound cast to determine an appropriate nose shape?

[SgtDog0311]

Nice looking PC Dean Winchester... and good questions. I'll be watching for answers as those are areas I could use some help with too.

[AggiePharmD]

If a person doesn't yet have a mould for their rifle they can't necessarily make an oversized bullet. How else could someone go about creating a substitute "bullet?" Would it be feasible to drill a slightly bigger hole in a piece of hardwood, pour the lead, remove and then use in place of the bullet? I'd like to do this for my 30.06s prior to buying a mould. TIA.

[alamogunr]

I tried drilling a hole in a piece of wood and pouring a slug. I used a piece of common 2X lumber. It didn't work very well. The hot lead "singed" the wall of the hole unevenly and left it rough. I found that I really had to pound the slug to smooth out the rough surface. Maybe a hard wood would work better.

Luckily, I have molds that work.

Referring toDeanWinchester's picture: How do you get a rounded tip on your casting? Mine are always flat or depressed to match the end of the rod.

[drmaynard3235]

Hi
Great post. I have not tried this yet, but is on the to do list.
A question. If concern about the extractor binding or being damaged because of the increased resistance
to extract the case, would it help to turn/file the rim off the case so the extractor does not come into play?
Since we are driving the case out with the rod.

drmaynard

[edctexas]

Remember if you have done a CerroSafe cast instead of a pound cast, you must correct the old cold dimensions. The figure batted around is .0025 but that number is subtracted from the square of the cast diameter and then the desired result is the square root of the squared measurement minus the correction. It makes a significant difference in the result. Fooled myself the first time! The correction shown is for at least 96 hrs after the cast. See midwayUSA's website for more info. The factor's unit is inches per Sq. In. which is why the messy square and root come in. This makes an old pound cast readily useable for measurements while your CerroSafe needs math translation to be useable.


Ed C

[SgtDog0311]

+1 edctexas... did a cerroSafe on my Marlin Ballard and it changed daily. drmaynard, I've got and extractor that impinges on that chamber and didn't have any problems though I was concerned going in.

I prefer a pound cast and have done several on 1893s and 1894s and modern levers but was a little hesitant on a 140 year old rifle that is known for it's hairline stock cracks.

[.30 Rem]

Very informative, thanks

[don45]

I'm getting ready to do a pound cast of my M70 458. The only mold I have is 462560 545gr which seems good for this job. I'm looking to buy an Accurate 400+/- once I have demensions.
I have done pound-casts on my M95 30-40 but have some questions about the big bore.
1) What do I use for a pound rod? I'm thinking same 1/4 in rod wrapped large in tape at several spots and cap it with a gas check on top of bullet. Not sure if I'll puncture the GC. Or should I find a larger rod? I haven't checked on what sizes are available.
2) How full should I fill the case with lead? I have tap&die to make a Hornady case guage to measure max COAL or I could just try spec COAL. The bullet really long and has large dia nose so shouldn't require a lot of expansion. I think 1/4 in from top will have this bullet too far into the throat and bolt won't close, thus the thought on the Hornady modified case, just a little work to make case.
Anyone done this on 458? Any suggestions?

[alamogunr]

Refer to my post #84. I think that a 1/4" rod would be too small. For .45-70 I use a 7/16 rod. That fits the bore well and won't penetrate the slug.

I just fill the case completely full and then cut off some of the neck so I get a good impression of the end of the chamber, the leade and the beginning of the lands. Not sure what you are trying to do with the second part of question #2.

[don45]

John, I found 3/8 rods, aluminum and steel, at HD. No 7/16 but 3/8 seems a fair fit. About same size as meplate. Is aluminum ok or should I go for steel? It will be wrapped up to bore size with tape so should never touch bore.

[SgtDog0311]

3/8 here too... and I take care to find a cold roll rod vs a hot roll. Tag will often have an HR or a CR. Electrical tape at driving end, another where the rod is entering the bore and then about every 8" in between.

For my slug, I find a case with an inside diameter just about bore size or under. I then fill that with soft lead, and then use a hammer style bullet puller to remove that slug. Sometimes cut that in half to make two slugs and roll it between two lapping plates to smooth the surface and till it just sets inside the case neck and will navigate the lands (bore measurement).

My case is filled to within a 1/4" of casemouth. I've filled to 1/8th of case mouth but often loose the cast when its that shallow and told myself "next time I'm gonna let the chamber slug seat in the case a little deeper".

Don't forget to grease your chamber, throat and slug. Don't ask me how I know that is easy to forget. Once forgotten you won't forget again!

[alamogunr]

The 3/8 should be fine in steel. Aluminum will deform too much under the hammer. Yes! Wrap the 3/8 with tape because it will probably deflect some. The 7/16 drill rod is ground and polished and is close enough to bore diameter to not cause a problem. In getting all the sizes of drill rod, I probably went overboard. But then that is not a new thing for me.

SgtDog0311 gives some good advice too. I'm not familiar with hot rolled but it sounds like the surface might not be best to slide down your barrel.

[don45]

126132126133126134
Working on pound-cast for 458 Win. I roughly measured max COAL for bolt-closing using marks on the pound-rod.
I trimmed the case by about 1/8" and seated boolit using regular seating die, careful not to bulge things by pushing too hard on the lead fill. All looks good, and the bolt closes on the round.
Now ready to read about actual pound...some questions.
How big of a hammer? How much lube / grease? What kind?
Once I have the cast I'll post pictures and have lots of questions. My goal to to purchase a 350r or so mold from NOE or Accurate, depending upon measures...right after I learn how to interpret these.
My end-goal is a spring bear hunt in Newfoundland with my M70. I purchased this gun in the late 60's for a trip to Alaska which never happened. This will be my first hunt with this gun and it's just made for a cast-boolit!

[alamogunr]

I use a 3 lb drilling hammer. https://www.google.com/webhp?rls=ig#rls=ig&q=drilling+hammer

Just enough oil(or grease) to coat the surface. You don't want dry, bare steel.

If I hunted I would definitely be envious.

[don45]

126521126522126523
So far I've chickened out on doing the actual pound cast. Just very worried about getting this massive chunk of lead stuck or somehow damaging the bore. From other posts, I can't remember where, I sort of know what a Winchester M70 458 throat looks like so I decided to do an expirment using my set of pin gauges. I made a very shortened Hornady case gauge by drilling and tapping a .458 case and then shortened it so that the long pins will measure the chamber down to 2.5 inches, the length of a 458 case (photo 1). I did measurements in 1/1000 increments (incr. of pins) and recorded the length from case head to end of pin. I started at .451 (.450 slides freely through bore) and measured up to .488, then plotted the results (photo 3). I simplified the plot as photo 2.
It seems to me that these results should be almost equivalent to measurements from an actual bore-cast. It also seems to me that there is no good way to fit a 350 gr bullet to this throat. The driving bands on most .458 boolits (ranch-dog, noe, lyman) is .460 which occurs at 3.0 inch from case base, i.e. 0.5 inch into throat. The short 350 gr NOE (460 350 RF2) would have to jump almost 1/2 inch before contact.
Does anyone think this data is useful to bullet selection? If I go for an Accurate custom (e.g. 46-360J) what sizes should I specify? Would I have learned anything more / different from an actual pound-cast?
Thanks,
Don

[stormingnorm]

Ok guys sorry but I am totally lost as to what is being shown to me.

[dsh1106]

OK I did my 1st pound cast today, I did this on my new Savage 111 Trophy Hunter 338 Win Mag.

Question for those who Know what they are doing:

- are most throats tapered? I measured the cast, the largest diameter was .348 and it tapered down to .338 ( I measured this with a pair of Brown & Sharpe calipers) I'm going to take the cat to work and measure it with both Micrometers & the comparator.
- I'm guessing the "rough" ring of lead that formed at the end of the casing and before the throat shows the total depth of the chamber? This ring measured .065" in length.

Thanks

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[62chevy]

goodsteel that is good info as I always thought one and done but you make sense with doing it three times. Thanks for the explanation.

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[Cowboy_Dan]

Has anyone done this with a steel case? Will it work? Rifle is a Mosin, case is copper-washed surplus.

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[philzilla]

great info

[Goose18557]

Dumb question. Can you do a pound cast in a semi-auto rifle? I have a Remington 740 Woodsmaster in .30-06. Planning on beginning my hand at casting for that rifle before I dive into my new 7mm Rem Mag.

[pete.s]

Just wanted to say thank you for the info. Whilst I have hand loaded for years in 308 I have just started to down load and use cast . I am saving this page as I have learnt a great deal.

[pcmacd]

Why not a cerosafe or Rotometals chamber alloy cast?

[kmrra]

learn something new everyday , thanks for the info

[MBTcustom]

I no longer contribute to this forum.

[toallmy]

Nice to hear from you goodsteal .

[sundog]

Years ago my old gunsmith friend (R.I.P.) put me on to sulpher/grafite for chamber casts. Works great as long as you do not ignite the sulphur :D

[trooperdan]

Just want to add another reason to do a pound cast over cerrosafe casting; if you have an old military rifle that has a pitted chamber I suspect the cerrosafe could lock in those pits and you'll wind up melting it to get it out!

[Mgvande]

I'm going to try this with my enfields. It will make a mold selection easier

[pworley1]

An outstanding article. Clear description and great pictures.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Stickied

[centershot]

I do not know what the situation was that caused Goodsteel to leave this forum, but I, for one, will truly miss his insight and generous contributions. Vaya con Dios my brother, you will be missed!

[No_1]

He was banned some time back and by choice stayed away for a while even though the ban had expired. He eventually returned and was posting until he received an infraction. A few days later he changed a bunch of his post to reflect the message below. Apparently he has determined we are not worthy of his knowledge. Such is life....

Robert


I do not know what the situation was that caused Goodsteel to leave this forum, but I, for one, will truly miss his insight and generous contributions. Vaya con Dios my brother, you will be missed!