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View Full Version : How much is too much? 10.5x47R again



Wayne Smith
11-23-2005, 08:41 PM
Gents

I have found out a lot more, and most of it challenging. It turns out that there are more than 10 versions of this cartridge, apparently everyone who wanted to shorten and neck down the 11.1 Mauser did it a little differently. From 9.2 to 10.5 bore diameters there are more than 30 cartridges!

Anyway, the generic CH4D dimensional drawing for their version of the 10.5x47R has a Head Diameter of .514", and my chamber cast Head Diameter (what I called Base Diameter in a previous post) is .525". Is working a cartridge expanded to just under (how much springback is expected?) .525" down to .514 a reasonable amount or excessive working of the web of the case?

It's really a question of a stock set of dies or custom made dies. I really don't know what the normal tolerances are here.

Oh, without proof marks this gun's last possible date is April 1, 1892, the date the proof law came into effect in Stettin. Turns out it is a reasonably common gun there. The German Gun Collector's Association really came through for me.

Buckshot
11-24-2005, 04:02 AM
"........... Is working a cartridge expanded to just under (how much springback is expected?) .525" down to .514 a reasonable amount or excessive working of the web of the case?"

The solid web portion of the case will expand not at all, with the pressures you'll be loading to. That part of the body ahead of the solid head is the part that will expand, and it does not have to be resized hardly at all, if ever.

If the dies that CH4D has on hand will work otherwise, and not entail a full on custom set they would work. In that case I would handle body expansion by the solid web like this. Wrap a turn of a suitable width gummed paper label around the case, above the rim. This will center the case in the chamber and allow it to expand evenly all around it's OD. Possibly 2 firings would be required.

Then remove the tape. The case will be centered and subsequent firings will evenly expand that portion at the solid head. I did this for the Brazilian Comblain and also for some Bertram 45-90 brass. The Bertram brass as a bit small for my rifle's chamber and the first 20 rounds I had loaded expanded all on one side.

It was more then the .010" you're looking at, and was more then I wanted to see. Subesquent loadings of the Bertram brass had the gummed labels. Pressures seen by my 45-90 were most likely well beyond what you would load your drilling to.

.............Buckshot

Wayne Smith
11-24-2005, 09:18 AM
Yeah, Rick, I realize the head will not expand. I'm thinking that the die will compress or size the web of the case .010" smaller than my chamber. I'm wondering if I just get the standard die and leave it high, so the web never enters the die, that working won't happen at all?

As I'm writing this I realize that I need to check the head size of the 11.1mm Mauser parent case. COTW #10 lists this as .516". I guess a piece of tape will be needed, won't it? I'm putting a case with a base diameter of .516" into a chamber with a base of .525".

Now I'm thinking that the base of the die really should be expanded to .525" or thereabouts to prevent excessive sizing. This is a break open action, not a lot of leverage there. I don't think I will get away with just neck sizing.

Any other thoughts?

floodgate
11-24-2005, 01:49 PM
Wayne:

"Yeah, Rick, I realize the head will not expand. I'm thinking that the die will compress or size the web of the case .010" smaller than my chamber. I'm wondering if I just get the standard die and leave it high, so the web never enters the die, that working won't happen at all?"

Actually, the web section will not get into the die at all, even if you set the die all the way down to contact the shellholder, since the shellholder takes up 1/8" (the National Reloading Mfr's. Ass'n. standard), and the radius at the die entry takes up another 1/16" or so. Except for belted magnums and a few extreme pressure rounds, the web occupies less than that length, so the die is working only the relatively thin walls, as far as it goes. I've heard (FWIW) that with decent brass (NOT Fiocchi or Bertram) up to 0.015" of expansion at the wall-to-web junction will not cause case failure, especially if you use a turn of tape to center the case head in the chamber (so expansion at any one point is half that), especially with the mild loads you'd want in a Drilling. And with a rimmed case and the break-open action, even if you do blow a case just above the head, none of it will get back to your face anyhow. (But, DO wear glasses!) I'd have no hesitation using such a combo at all.

Floodgate

Wayne Smith
11-24-2005, 07:35 PM
Floodgate, others

I have no problem using it, but only with BP. Getting dies thought out before paying good money is all I'm trying to do now. I'll be using 11.1 x 60R Mauser (.43 Mauser) cases cut down and formed.

I haven't decided on a bullet, Saeco is sending me their catalog next time they do a mailing. The RCBS 414-350 looks good but probably a touch heavy for this case. I'm thinking more of something around 260-300 gr., flat point, plain base or GC, it doesn't matter.

Brass Magtech 16 x 2.4" shotshells, .690 round ball for the 16ga depending on what my gunsmith finds about concerning choke bore.

Wanna get it going and take it boar hunting!

Buckshot
11-26-2005, 07:28 AM
..........Wayne, being honest and telling on myself here, when I was mangleing the Mag-Tech 32 ga shotshells for the Comblain, I mentioned I used all kinds of different size dies to get them into some semblance of shape to chamber?

Other then the use final use of a 45 ACP die on the caseneck, the final forming was done by actually driving the case into the chamber:D I used a wooden dowel that was just a bit smaller then the rim diameter and a hammer. The cases lacked about 1/4" of fully seating. This was because my ham fisted necking kind of bulged the case there on the newly created shoulder some.

Dropped the greased up shell in the chamber and gave it a couple solid whacks. Extract and rotate, then whack it in again. All done!

..............Buckshot

Blackwater
11-26-2005, 09:38 PM
Wayne, as long as Buckshot's telling on himself, I may as well, also. A buddy some years ago got into the BPE double rifles. He had several .45's of various persuasions and a BEAUTIFUL .50 cal. Graham (English) gun that'd now go for upwards of $7500. Absolutely beautiful gun. Most had the side-swinging lever on the forend. One German made double .45 of some sort (can't remember many particulars just now) had that side-swinging lever, and there weren't any dies available at anything remotely resembling a reasonable price, so I told him to just use that lever to "size" the not too far off cases, and fireform them, and then seat a bullet. This worked perfectly in the old gun.

I forget what cases he was using then, but I believe they must have been some early B.E.L.L. brass. They weren't hard to size at all. Can't say what some of the ones available now would be like, but I'm sure you as well as I have heard the complaints of hard brass from Bertram, I think it is? You know the steel in those old guns isn't all that strong, so just use some good judgment in what you think the gun will sustain. There shouldn't be all that much effort needed to size them, though, after the initial sizing to fit the chamber. Wasn't in my buddy's case, anyway.

He wasn't much of a reloader, and had a big problem with anything that recoiled much. Turned out later that he had a spur on his shoulder, and he got it fixed, but is still very recoil sensitive, though not as bad as he used to be. He always got me to load for them and to do the initial testing. We shot nitro for black loads, and started way low and just worked up until the barrels shot together at somewhere between 50 and 75 yds. Lots of folks now use RE-15 for nitro for black loads, too, if you decide to try that, but I think you're on the right track, myself, in sticking to black with it. No point in shooting a neat old gun like that and not getting the "full meal deal" experience in the process, right? ;-)

You MAY (?) get by without ANY loading dies, unless maybe you want to shoot it a lot. In that case, you may want some dies just to resize the brass if and when it starts to chamber a little hard, just to go easy on the old gun and its softer steels. Don't know if all this helps much, but it should help you get some fireformed cases, at least, so you can measure some fired cases.

Congrats on the gun, and it's good to see you shooting it like it was MEANT to do.

Wayne Smith
11-27-2005, 03:29 PM
I've thought of this, Blackwater, mostly because of my experience loading for an original Trapdoor. It shot best with unsized brass and thumb seated bullets, just a bare crimp to hold the bullet in place. Somehow I doubt that will work acceptably in a bottle necked case. I'm guessing that I'll need a form die and a sizer die, along with a bullet seating die. I have the Lee flaring die, if needed. I do have the Hornaday .405 Win die set, and that bullet seating die will probably work, since the bullets are the same size, if the case will fit inside the die, and I'm guessing it will. I do think I will want the cases to slide easily into the chamber if I'm going to take it hunting!

This leaves me getting a form trim die and a sizer/decapper from CH4D. It will probably be a custom deal from a chamber cast is my current thinking, but I'll send them the chamber cast and see what they recommend.

BTW, was your friend independently wealthy or single with a great job? Those things are expensive!

Blackwater
11-28-2005, 12:30 AM
My buddy was just a poor workin' stiff at the time. He's done well since, though. He got into them back when nobody wanted "those old black powder guns" and picked them up for a song. I think he gave $700 or $750 for that Graham .500 BPE, and THAT was one REALLY, REALLY NICE gun! Sold it later for $1800 and thought he made a killin' on it, but if he'd kept it, that one would go for a minimum of $7500 today, and likely more.

BTW, the main rifle he did the sizing with using the onboard lever was a German .500/.450 BPE of some description that I don't remember. I think he only sized about 6 of the .500's he had for the big Graham rifle, but we worked up some loads that shot together at @ 65 or so yds. with it, working up gradually. Was some REAL fun! I just LOVED shooting those neat old guns for him. We used kapok for a filler over the 3031, and I found the shower of white "snow" at each shot a serious detraction. Also found some left in the barrels after a few shots, too. Nice thing about doubles or break-open single shots is that it's easy to check for this. Poked them out, but right then and there resolved I'd never use kapok in any of my own guns, and watched like a hawk afterward for any left in the barrel after each right & left.

Tried to get him to load real black, but he'd have none of it. Afraid it'd rust the guns. Back then, though, we didn't know BP needed a lube that was compatible with the fouling chemistry, so it's probably just as well he wouldn't hear of shooting them with black.

That old Graham, in particular, shot WAY better than I was able to see, even back then when my eyes were better than they are now. They've never been all that great, really. We shot a 340 gr. Lyman cast bullet from it, and I always had the feeling that we weren't getting all the accuracy out of it that was in the gun. Amazing what some of those old guns will do. Good luck, and please let us know how this project goes for you.

Wayne Smith
11-29-2005, 08:25 AM
Has anybody out there used NEI's #230? I'm thinking it looks about perfect cut w/o the gas check, but I'm not sure that the grease groove is adequate for Black Powder. Would I be limited to 777 or a grease wad with this bullet?

JRParrish
12-28-2005, 08:08 PM
I've got an old Belguim made Cape Gun in 16 ga. and unknown. Rim dia. is ~ 0.595" or a bit less. A slug driven thru the bore mics up to .431". Chamber cast suggest case was about 2.000" long. Haven't measure twist rate yet. Damascus barrels so its blackpowder only.

versifier
12-29-2005, 12:00 AM
JR,
Any chance of you posting a picture of your cape gun? Occasionally I see one at a gun show but they get downright ugly when I get drool on them. :lol: