7.62x51 NATO (.308 WCF) in the Springfield M1A

[BruceB]

This was the first try with cast boolits in my brand-new M1A, which has had a tad less than 500 jacketed rounds through the tube. It wears the issue iron sights.

For the first 'go', I took a leaf from BobS' Garand book, and went with olde H4831, charge weight 35.0 grains with both designs fired today. This load was the subject of much thought before I chose the charge weight, because it's basically uncharted ground. This is why I'm pleased to be able to post about it, so others don't have to do the same "interpolation" schtick.

The bullet designs were Lyman's 311672 and 311299. 672 is a bore-riding 167-grain job much like a SAECO RG-4 in profile, to my eye at least. 311299 is a reduced-diameter version of 314299, a famous bullet intended for the .303 British and other "fat .30s". My 311299s weigh 210 grains, cast hot and fast, and water-dropped in straight WW alloy, as were the 672s. Lube was the Felix stuff, of course. All bullets were sized at .311". Primers were CCI #34 "military" type. All rounds were fired with a timed one minute interval between shots, with ambient temperature at 59 degrees and NO wind. The barrel never got more than comfortably warm...easy to touch, in other words. Cases are unfired (new) pull-down Lake City 1988.

For the 311672s, I loaded two ten-round batches, one batch with a TINY dacron tuft (because there's not much room in a 7.62 NATO case above 35 grains of bulky powder) and the other batch without dacron.

I fired five rounds of the NO-dacron rounds first. The initial two rounds went through the same hole from 50 yards, PRECISELY on the point of aim/zero for 168 Matchkings at 2600 fps! "OOOooooh", sez I. The next three rounds landed progressively further down the target, and ended in a total group of about 3.5 inches.

Average: 1414fps; extreme spread: 102 fps; standard deviation: 47 fps

Hmmm. So, I switched to the 311672 WITH dacron, and this time the first THREE rounds cut into a single hole on point of aim, followed by one hole an inch out at 4:00 and the fifth an inch out at 10:00, for just over a two-inch group. Now, check out the readings WITH dacron, after the group being barely HALF of the no-dacron group:

Average: 1524 fps; extreme spread: 60 fps; SD: 22 fps

I admit to being surprised here. Over 100 fps higher speed, and about HALF the ES and SD, all for a truly MINISCULE bit of dacron!?!?

I refired both loads on the original target for each, and the groups did not enlarge over the initial five rounds. The chronograph readings also stayed very close to the original results.

Shifting to the 311299 load, the group formed about 1.5" above where the 672s were landing on their targets. 299s did not demonstrate the movement of successive impacts, and the entire ten rounds ended up making a 1.5" group These rounds had NO dacron.

311299, average: 1546 fps; ES: 117 fps; SD: 36.

Notice that with this same charge and a bullet 43 grains heavier than 311672, the velocity was just about the same as the 311672 with dacron..

Pressure with all loads was very mild. The cases were FILTHY, indicating marginal obturation (based on observations with the service-level Matchking loads). The primers are also VERY rounded compared to those same jacketed loads. Ejection was a great deal softer than with the jacketed loads, especially with 311672. The 299s were much snappier than the 672s, but still nowhere near the functioning speed with Matchkings.

It's my conclusion that these carefully-figured loads are operating on very safe ground, pressure-wise, and I can safely work them up without worry.

Here's one of the neat parts: even with some rounds dropping down into the high 1300s for speed, the rifle functioned PERFECTLY, even to the point of locking open on the empty magazine! This is awesome, to me.

On inspecting the rifle afterwards, (only 30 rounds fired, of course) I found no evidence of leading or excessive fouling anywhere. Since the flash suppressor prevents looking sideways at the surface of the bore at the muzzle, I contented myself with a hard look down the barrel and saw no visible leading. The inside of the suppressor can sometimes tell us a tale, but in this case I found it totally clean, without any of the gray wash I've seen in similar places on other rifles.

Am I happy? You bet! I've been looking forward to this day for months, and it went very well indeed. This is one IMPRESSIVE rifle. By the time NCBS 2006 rolls around, I'll be sure to have plenty of good, tested loads for y'all to shoot.

[Buckshot]

...........Sounds like you're on to something Bruce.

"............By the time NCBS 2006 rolls around, I'll be sure to have plenty of good, tested loads for y'all to shoot."

HA! Wonder what it would cost to get the Rooles Komittee to allow it in a stake or balloon shoot?

...........Buckshot

[David R]

I had an M1 Garand, didn't care for it much. I ended up trading it for my 22-250. An M1A always interested me, now more than ever. Thanks BruceB

David

[JDL]

Hey, it looks as if you've got the M1A perking. I'll bet if you keep the 35 grain charge and use a heavier boolit the velocity will be even higher. I found this to be true when using a .30-30 and 4831.
Did you have much unburned powder left in the bore? -JDL

[BruceB]

JDL, pard;

That is precisely what the next batch consists of, 311284 (222 grains) with the same 35 grain charge of H4831 plus a couple of additional loads at 36 and 37 grains. Also, I loaded 311299 with 36 and 37 grains of the same stuff for trials.

I'm off work on Tuesday and Wednesday, and hope to fire these rounds then. The weather is cold and nasty , but being able to shoot from inside Der 'wagen sure helps that situation a lot.

It seems I have enough different boolit designs in the appropriate weight bracket (150-220, I think is reasonable) to keep experiments running for a long time.

I intend to stay with the slower-burning range of powders for at least a while, and there are many candidates there as well. IMR4831 and 4350 seem obvious, and "45-2.1" has strongly recommended AA3100 for this application, too. If I could get a good accurate load with something in the 180 grain-200-plus bullets at maybe 2000 fps, I'd be pretty well content. All I really want is a load which allows reaching 200 yards or so with a good chance of hitting accurately at that distance.

Of course, "good enough" is never really good enough, and I reckon I'm doomed to experiment until my shooting days are over!

Good functioning is also a requirement, but it sure doesn't look like that'll be a problem, given the results so far.

311284 has to be seated to about 2.722" over-all length to keep the front band out of the rifling origin. 311299 and 311672 can be seated a tad over 2.780" and still chamber freely. Rounds MUST be free-chambering for these semi-autos, without any restrictions due to land contact, etc.

I'll be running tests with 311466 and 311467, 155 and 180 grains, as well. Both are the Loverin design, with feed-friendly shapes and reputations for good accuracy. Then I have 311334, 311314, and a bunch of others that will likely get trial runs. I can see a LOT of shooting ahead.

This project is also the first serious use of my new chronograph, a 'CED Millennium' from Dillon Precision, courtesy of my wife. So far, it's been a real revelation in ease of use and excellent function. Hope that continues!

[BruceB]

On today's trip to the range with the M1A, I fired some 311284s (222 grains in my water-dropped WW alloy, .311", Felix lube, Hornady gaschecks), as well as some 311299s, same as on the last occasion.

From 50 yards, off Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest, I got the following results with H4831 powder and CCI #34 primers:

311284, 35.0 grains, av 1697; es 91, sd 28; 10 rounds scattered to 2.8".

311284, 36.0 grains, av 1770; es 81; sd 32; 10 rounds scattered to 3.1".

I dry-brushed the bore for forty strokes at this point.

311284, 37.0 grains, av 1815; es 168!?!?; sd 54; 5 rds in 1.04" and 4 in 0.40"....the widest shot was called "out" as soon as the hammer fell.


311299, 210 grains: 36.0 H4831: av 1575; es 63; sd 29; 4 in 0.45", fifth round tipping and making the group 1.01"

311299, 37.0 grains, av 1651; es 146; sd 53; 5 in 1.15".

I don't like the wide velocity spreads in some of these, but I'm gonna keep working with this H4831 with more loads and see what sort of history accumulates. Clearly there is some hope in the experience so far. It'll be interesting to see what powders just a tad quicker might do, and I'll try IMR4831 and 4350 soon.

Temps today were much cooler at around 40 degrees, but rifle and ammo aren't affected much since they are inside the van. I did find that even firing every thirty seconds never heated the barrel beyond mildly warm to the touch.

The rifle continues its unbroken record of PERFECT function, at over 500 rounds so far. I like it better and better, every time I take it out!

[Fireball 57]

Got one of those myself. I often wondered about the Pb in the gas cylinder thing. It"s double lugged into the Kevlar stock. I guess I'll have to keep wondering. Great report on the M1A. :)

[David R]

BruceB,

I buy one gun a year. Keep it up and It will be an M1A.

David

[BruceB]

Continuing tests with 4831, but this time with IMR 4831, NOT H4831. Good weather, 45 degrees, some gusts of 20 mph or so.

311284, same specs as before:

37.0 IMR 4831: average 1907 fps; extreme spread 56; standard deviation 17.

50-yard group stringing vertically, 2.8" for 10 rounds. Note that velocity is almost 100 fps higher than with H4831.

311467 Loverin, same as before:

37.0 IMR 4831: av 1860; es 89; sd 30

This was a bit of a puzzle. The first round landed several inches high with the hole clearly indicating a tipping or yawing bullet. The next two came in an inch or so below the first one, nice round holes.The last seven formed a separate group an inch or so lower yet, and all seven snuggled into 0.8". All shots were called good from a very solid rest.

311467, 38.0 IMR 4831: av 1928; es 75; sd 22. Ten rounds formed a loose-but-round "group" of 2.3"....but it looked better than the mess created with 37.0 grains.

When loading this last bunch, I sorta "discovered" some linotype .311" .30 HBC boolits hangin' out on the bench, so, "Why not?" (Sigh) THIS is "why not?"

.30HBC, 35.0 IMR 4831: av 1789; es 88; sd 39, figures taken from only five rounds fired.

Four rounds grouped in a lateral 1.8", and the FIRST round was four inches below those four. Again, all shots called good from the rest.

.30 HBC, 38.0 IMR 4831: av 1912; es 53; sd 18. Ten rounds in 5.5" at 50 yards....yuck.

What I've been doing with this rifle so far is identifying load levels that allow it to function, plus some interested watching for indications of future accuracy loads. I'm pleased as all get-out with the rifle to date, so now I moved into another uncharted zone for my semi-autos by trying a load with IMR 4198.

I KNOW the 4831s are "too slow" for the 7.62 NATO... but they work fine at low pressure, even with wider velocity spreads than I like. I also KNOW that the 4198s are "too fast" for the same cartridge IN A SEMI-AUTO.... but with the way the rifle tolerates low port pressure from 4831, I wanted to make an assessment of 4198 in the same rifle.

311467, 22.0 IMR 4198, dacron fill: av 1838; es 63; sd 19. The group was fully 3" for ten rounds at 50 yards.

The load was carefully chosen by comparing personal previous safe loads with the same powder and similar bullets in the .303 British, .30-40 and .30-06.

Allowing for differences in case capacity and other factors, I came up with 22 grains, and it performed exactly as expected, since my forecast was 1800 +/- for the load fired today. 1800 fps happens to be about where I want my future plinking and target loads to be, too, so the estimate was dead-on for my purposes. The REAL question was how the rifle would function, and ....it doesn't quite digest this load. It ejected all ten cases successfully, but failed to feed the next round on every shot, which naturally means the bolt isn't coming back far enough to pick up the next round. This of course is no fault of the M1A, since I was feeding it ammunition which simply failed to develop enough pressure at the gas port. It MIGHT function properly with 311284, it being forty or so grains heavier, but I think for now I'll drop down the burning-rate ladder a tad and try some 3031 and 4895 loads.

It's fascinating, being able to actually SEE the different burning rates modify the rifle's function. I've been through this with quite a few semi-autos over the years, and it is always an interesting quest.

[BruceB]

It was a grand, glorious, beautiful day on the range...and the weather was pretty good, too.

Trying to get some rifles in trim for the Nevada Shoot next month, I took an assortment of goodies to the range today. The battery included the M1A. I zeroed my Ruger 77 in 7.62x39 at 1" high @ 50 yards, followed by Karen's M77 .270 with a similar zero. Both grouped VERY well, under an inch in the final groups.

The M1A came last, as I had about a dozen experimental loads to run. My rifle does NOT like the classic 311284 bullet in any load yet tried, as witness below:

311284 (WW, water-dropped, .311" sizing, felix lube) ALL WITH DACRON

28.0 IMR 3031: 1848 avg; 126 extreme spread; 35 std dev; 3.5"/10 rds/50yd

29.0 3031: 1940 av; 44 es; 14 sd; 3.5"/10 rds/50

30.0 3031: 2002 av; 58 es; 22 sd; 5"(!)/10 rds/50

31.0 3031: 2034 av; 39 es; 13 sd; 3.7"/10rds/50

32.0 3031 2084 av; 78 es; 20 sd; 4.0"/10 rds/50

I was pretty downcast after all this, questioning the rifle, the ammo, and my shooting. However....

311672 (WW, water-dropped, .311", felix lube) ALL WITH DACRON

27.0 3031: 1764 av; 101 es; 37sd; 2.25"/10/50, but with 7 in 1.2"

28.0 3031: 1830 av; 159 es; 52 sd; 2.4"/10/50, but eight in 1.10"

29.0 3031: 1917 av; 140 es; 42 sd; 2.1"/10/50, 8 rounds in 1.2"

30.0 3031: 2000 av; 90 es; 30 sd; 1.5"/10/50, and 9 in 0.90"

31.0 3031: 2046 av; 90 es; 30 sd; 1.4"/10/50, and 9 in 0.80"!

...and for the grand finale, the last group I shot today involved a load which I reduced slightly from an earlier attempt. #311467, the 180-grain Loverin, had shown a few tipping bullets when loaded over 37.0 of OLD H-4831, but still put eight rounds into 0.70" the last time out. I decided to see if reducing the speed might also stop that tipping, and that's exactly what happened:

311467 (WW, water-dropped, .311", felix lube) NO FILLER:

35.0 OLD H-4831: 1694 av; 56 es; 18 sd: TEN ROUNDS IN 0.60" at fifty yards. I have done found my load for the Nevada Shoot, I do believe...

All groups were shot with the issue iron sights. Perfect function was achieved with all listed loads on this expedition, including locking the action open on the last round. Groups were fired starting with all ten rounds in the magazine. (One minute between shots, five minutes between strings) All shooting was done from Der Schuetzenwagen's benchrest with the help of a Cabela's "Ultimate" rest, which does NOT have all those fine-tuning micrometer super whatsits all over it...just a pair of felt-lined cradles for butt and fore-end.

I'm including all the 'bummers' simply as information for anyone looking for data regarding functioning issues for 7.62 NATO rifles in the future.

I LIKE THIS RIFLE. 311672 has started showing some real promise, but my mould for that 'un is a measly 2-cav job, and I have a FOUR-cavity 311467! Gee, I wonder which one gets the nod....?

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

Hey pardner...that's some damn good shooting with iron sights. Looks like you indeed do have your load. I think it's very cool you're getting a M1A to shoot cast and function and with accuracy.

Joe

[Buckshot]

.............Heck Bruce, 0.600" at 50 yards for TEN ROUNDS at 1700 fps and the rifle cycles. Yeah, I think I'd stop there and call it good. What the heck else would you do for an encore? Looks like the ole 311284 may have had guidance issues.

.................Buckshot

[BruceB]

That 0.60 surprised me, too, since I'm really having trouble seeing iron sights clearly of late.

The targets are a standard pistol "center" folded precisely in half, so that the aiming mark is a black semi-circle with the flat side down. This is placed on a blank piece of paper so there's a clean contrast for silhouetting the sights. I find the flat bottom of the aiming mark gives a more-visible index both for elevation of the front sight, and also for minimizing any tendency toward canting of the rifle. This isn't my invention, as the Canadian Army was using the idea for probably about a hundred years now, and that's where I picked up the concept.

I fired the first three rounds of this group before peeking into the spotting scope, and then wondered where the rounds had all gone. Turned out they were all snuggled into the same biggish hole right at 12 o'clock on the line of the ten-ring...call it two inches high and dead-center for windage. After the preceding scattergun performances, it was mighty nice to see. I immediately went into that inner turmoil state of "DON'T SCREW THIS UP, DUMMY!!!!" which I'm sure everyone will recognize. With seven rounds still in the rifle, it was an exercise in self-control, lemme tell y'all.

Getting home, I quickly ran an inventory for boolits....311467, check. WW, water-dropped, check. .311", check. Felix lube, check. ....and it turns out that I have about 800 bullets of PRECISELY that description READY TO LOAD. What a wonderful state-of-being that is! Those coming to the Nevada Shoot will be able to try this rifle out for themselves, with plenty of ammo on hand. I don't even have to mess with my beloved dacron in this load.

Seems like sometimes, though rarely, things actually do work out.

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

That group also speaks for your fast and consistent casting method. Good show ole chap.

Joe

[Buckshot]

................Re: "Just coming together".

I've had a couple instances of this whilst stumbling and bumbleing around without rhyme or reason. Not to say YOU were :-) One was with the SR Mauser in 35 Rem. My one real 35 cal rifle boolit for it is the Saeco # 356, a 200gr FP with GC. Doing load work surp WC846 seemed to be in the right speed realm so I started a bit below what I thought a good statring load would be. Then loaded enough (60 rounds ) incrementaly until the boolit's bum was firmly on, but not compressing the dropped charge.

At first I wouldn't have bet a plugged nickle on a positive outcome. Yet I felt the easiest way to rid myself of the ammo was to unload it through the muzzle. As I shot, it became a bit interesting. Then moreso. I had started too low with this powder. As the case filled, two neat things happened. The velocity increased which is to be expected. But also the velocity variations disappeared and the groups tightened.

As I fired off the last 3 five round groups the velocity tipped over 2300 fps and the rounds ended up snuggleing right down into a scant inch at 50 yards. There we go! Stop right there, plant a couple trees and build a house as I'm home.

The other was the 7.62x39 in another SR Mauser. Ditto pretty much with surp 4895. A full caseload under the Lee C312-155-2R nets 1950 fps and stack'em right in on top of each other. Throw away all the other effluvium in the notebook and cast that load in concrete :-)

..................Buckshot

[BruceB]

.............Looks like the ole 311284 may have had guidance issues..................Buckshot

These range results made me curious about the actual dimensions of the 284s, too.

The mould is an older 'Ideal' -marked single cavity, for which I waited a long time before it came up on Ebay. I prefer the older ones in many cases, because they often cast a bit fatter than current-production moulds.

Checking the dimensions of the actual bullets in the batch fired on the day in question, I find that the nose is .2995" and the bands are right at .311", so I really don't see much in the way of problematic dimensions. I'd rather have the nose more like .301", but....?

However, I can take a hint, as administered by the 311467/H4831 load that shot so beautifully. I now have over 500 rounds loaded with that combo for the entertainment of visitors. I also think the M1A will be my iron-sight "competition" rifle... why not? It's outshooting all of my iron-equipped bolt-actions! In loading all those 500+ rounds, I visually checked every single powder charge, simply because of the long-stick format of the 4831 granules. I found exactly ONE instance wherein the charge did not drop from my Uniflow, but that one occurrence made all the checking worthwhile.

In an effort to avoid this in the future, I plan to do two things...one is to try the load with H4831 SC (short-cut) and the other is to run a series with H 335 or maybe something a bit slower in ball powders. The ball types make for greater confidence when running big batches on the Dillon 550, since they pour like water. H335 does NOT work at all well in my .30-06s, and in the Garand H 335 gave repeated and consistent hangfires. (I'm finding 335 rather useful in my new Interarms .223, giving me 3290 fps from the 20" barrel with 52-grain match HPs, and with good accuracy.)

[Buckshot]

..................BruceB, do a test if you would, when you have a chance. Take 10 of those 311284's and when they are fully in the lube die apply some extra grunt to see if you can't form a bulge rigth there at the turn of the ogive. Carefull as that old scraper groove in front of the top drive band can allow the nose to lean over. Ask me how I know :-)

Of course you have a fantastic load already, but it would be interesting to see if it made a difference.

Mike'em to see if they come up to 0.300"+ or more. Load'em and shoot'em and see what happens. I had a Lyman 400gr 40 cal mould for my 40-65 and it wouldn't shoot fer beans. The nose was like .398" or some such. I bumped them in the lube press and danged if they didn't do twice as good. I shucked the mould, cause heck if I'm gonna do that all day to a bunch of 40 cal boolits! Got a RCBS 410gr mould, and no problems.

...............Buckshot

[NVcurmudgeon]

Awk! A "Pogo Stick" shooting into 0.60" at fifty yards? Looks like big trouble for the dueling Springfields at this year's NCBS. Multi magna congratulations!

[BruceB]

Right now I am regretting braying about the wonderful .60 group, at least in public like this.

What if it was the ONE occasion when ten flyers fluked into the same hole????? What if it NEVER HAPPENS AGAIN????? My sorrow would be boundless.

Gotta have faith...gotta have faith....ommmmm.... ommmmm..... will Hare Krishna meditations and chants help?....ommmmmm.... Naw, fergit it.

Careful loading and careful triggering WILL let the rifle shine. I BELIEVE, pilgrims!! (So there....get thee behind me, Satan!)

[BruceB]

The M1A survived the glare of publicity at the Nevada Shoot in pretty good fashion, I'd say. That load which gave me the wonderful 0.60" group was mass-produced for our honored guests to try, and I had close to 500 rounds of the recipe on hand when it all started.

Checking just a few minutes ago, I seem to have something less than 100 rounds remaining, and a LOT of empty brass. What impressed me the most was the utter EASE with which everyone was hitting the gongs, from off-hand, yet! Deputy Al's first shot (from standing) at the 6" round 100-yard gong was dead-center, and I suspect his hit average over about forty rounds was 95% or better, on a variety of steel targets. Others did equally well, and I think Curmudgeon on one occasion emptied all fifteen rounds from the magazine (all that I'd stuffed-in, before giving it to him) without a miss.

The 311467/35.0 H4831 load is JUST marginal for function. While it worked 100% from the benchrest, it would occasionally fail to open the bolt far enough for ejection when fired off-hand. Some unburned powder appeared in the action area, but nothing was left in the bore except some very fine dusty-looking debris in the bottom of the bore. NO leading appeared, even when the rifle was so hot I couldn't hold the HANDGUARD, never mind the barrel!

I took advantage of having my whole outfit set up on the range to test-fire a few new and different loads in the M1A. Since I didn't have my usual grouping targets posted, I just fired for chrono readings and function. H4831 SHORT CUT, loaded on the Dillon 550, ran a wee bit faster than the original H4831, and seemed to function well. A few loads with H335, again loaded on the 550B, also functioned well and gave standard deviations as low as TWO fps and extreme spreads down into the single digits on five-round samples. I'm eager to get these loads out for a full accuracy trial!

Note that 4831 Short Cut metered perfectly in the 550, and I checked every round to make sure! H335, of course, is a slam dunk for easy metering. I intend to get out for some extensive shooting next week, and will post results here.

The longer this rifle stays with me, the better I like it.

[9.3X62AL]

Shooting Bruce's M1A evoked some fine memories, in addition to being highly accurate and pleasant to fire. If someone wants a GOOD example of the M-14/M1A variants for shooting and overall enjoyment, I can recommend the Fulton Armory examples like those that Bruce owns without reservation.

Personal preference maybe.....I shoot Garand-based rifles a LOT better than I do "new pattern" (AR-15, HK-91, FN-LAR) designs. I know damn well that AR's are intrinsically a LOT more accurate than are Mini-14's, but all that aside--I still hit critters better with the Mini. Maybe it's all that smog I've breathed in since birth here in the People's Respooblik--or perhaps all those chemicals I was around during my drug lab days--have altered my chromosomes or something.

As much as I enjoy the M1A, the cost of running them caused me to sell the example I had, as well as an HK-91 that was due to become an assault rifle when CA lost its mind permanently and irretrievably in 1989. The success of Bruce's cast boolit work in his rifle causes me to re-think this matter. Rather than hijack this thread, I'll start another that deals with the subject of Mini-14's and cast boolits.

[BruceB]

Friend Al;

You musta missed the thread last fall wherein I reported that I had abandoned the Fulton Armory rifle.

This M1A I now own is a bone-stock Springfield Armory "loaded" rifle (Model # 9222, I think). Being that it is such a basic rifle, it seems all the more impressive to me. My cost was $1450 out the door of a shop in South Dakota, via Gunsamerica.com. I'm blessed if I can see how any more-expensive rifle could suit me any better for MY purposes (meaning, not needing a "match"-quality rifle).

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

I didn't miss it. I was wondering "hey Bruce bought a Springfield, how'd he show up with a Fulton?".

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

Oops--now that I read this, I recall that we spoke about this while enroute to Alberta. Sheesh! Sorry about that.

The rifle still shot right well, and since those Springfields can still be imported into the PRC, it gives hope to the gun-enjoying proletariat in this Worker's Paradise.

[BruceB]

Went to the gravel pit today for more work with the M1A.

Included were loads using 311413 (170 spitzer) 311467 (Loverin 180) 311672 (167 "semi-spitzer") and SAECO #305 (180 flat-tipped "spitzer"). Powders included H4831 Short Cut and H 335.

Although H4831 gave me that wonderful group referred to earlier, I'm now ruling it out as a long-term powder for the cast-bullet role in this cartridge, at least until I decide to try for much higher speeds-and-pressures to get the stuff burning better. This includes both regular and Short Cut 4831.

After observing over 400 rounds fired with H4831 at NCBS, and after firing a considerable number of rounds using it today, I see that there's just too much unburned powder left in the action and chamber (not in the barrel). This leftover powder has caused a number of malfunctions, so it is not a viable candidate. Note that the #34 primer I'm using is generally considered as being a Magnum-intensity sparkplug, too.

H335 is a much more satisfactory powder, so far. It's burning quite cleanly at rather low speeds, and accuracy is good enough to warrant a lot more research.

I have my Logbooks from both the home bench and Der Schuetzenwagen here at work with me, but unfortunately failed to either enter the target results in the books, or bring the targets with me. I'll try to recall the high points as I list the loads, anyway.

As usual, all the boolits are straight wheelweight alloy, cast fast and hot, water-dropped, sized .311" and lubed with Felix lube. Gator checks on the SAECOs today! NO case fillers were used.

311413, 26.0 H335: 1752 average, 44 extreme spread, 14 std deviation,
1.5"/10 rds/50 yards

same boolit, 28.0 H335: 1857 av, 82 es, 21 sd group about 2"/10/50

same, 30.0 H335: 1974 av, 66 es, 19 sd

same, 35.0 H4831SC: 1667 av, 76 es, 27 sd.

same, 37.0 H4831SC: 1812 av, 126 es, 38 sd


311467: 30.0 H335: 1970 av, 80 es, 22 sd

same, 35.0 H4831SC: 1675 av, 131 es, 41 sd

same,37.0 H4831SC: 1817 av, 81 es, 22 sd


311672, 35.0 H4831SC: 1528 av, 57 es, 20 sd

same, 37.0 H4831SC: 1649 av, 98 es, 30 sd


SAECO #305, 26.0 H335: 1735 av, 60 es, 19 sd ....1.2"/10 rds/50

same, 28.0 H335: 1830 av, 77 es, 20 sd

same, 30.0 H335: 1940 av, 53 es, 16 sd........1.1"/10 rds/50

same, 36.0 H4831SC: 1769 av, 49 es, 14 sd

Also fired 38.0 H4831SC with SAECO #305 but chrono battery went flat and I got no valid readings for the string.

All the above readings are based on ten rounds per load. All rounds were magazine-loaded for firing, ten rounds per magazine. Pressures are quite low in all cast-bullet loads tried in the M1A to date. The H335 loads function much more "snappily" than the H4831, as we might expect. The fastest loads today were starting to actually feel a bit like a service load should....

It was cool enough today (mid-40s) that the barrel never got beyond mildly warm, and I was able to fire about every 15-30 seconds without heating things up at all. A curious phenomenon showed itself in three of the groups with 311413. Even though the first five or six rounds scattered with gay abandon across two or three inches of paper, the last four or five grouped VERY TIGHTLY in just about the middle of the previous impacts, and by that, I mean one small ragged hole for four or five rounds! I certainly didn't change anything in the shooting technique, and it did happen three times, not just once. Hmmmm...?

I'll say it again! The more I shoot this rifle, the better I like it.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Bruce, I see that you are shooting ten-shot groups. Way to go, you are unlikely to be fooled by a lucky group of five and have to repeat unpromising loads.

[9.3X62AL]

Bruce--

If H-335 continues its good work in that SPRINGFIELD, you might try one of the surplus powders (WC-846 comes to mind) to reduce fuel costs further. If I get off my aspirations and get another one of these, the surplus powders will be part of the plan.

[StarMetal]

Deputy Al,

Surplus 844 is closer to H335. I've been shooting it and the jug states to use H335 data to reload with it.

Joe

[BruceB]

Yep, that is "De plan, Boss, de plan!!!!"

I'm trying to get a small herd of my co-workers all going the same direction for a group buy of powders from Bartlett or someone similar. H335/844 is NOT compatible with my Garand, but I see that surplus 4895 is again available, and that is very good stuff in many cartridges and rifles (including the Garand).

I'll try some of my commercial 4895 in the M1A in the next few days, and see how it runs in that role. I do like the ball powders for ease and safety of measurement in the Dillon 550. Going back through my records a while back, I found a depressingly-high number of "best results" occurred when using SURPLUS 4895, of which I now "don't got none".

One thing about the M1A, it makes its preferences known in no mistaken terms....

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

Wideners in TN has the surplus 4895.

Joe

[BruceB]

"HELL-oooo, Boys, I'm BAAAAaaack!!!!" (just before the F-15(?) crashes in a vertical climb into the alien ship's control center, "Independence Day")

Yep, I'm back with more results obtained yesterday with the M1A. I took about 18 loads to the range, ten rounds per recipe, and a few were so bad that some of the rounds are awaiting dis-assembly on the bench. It'd be a waste of the components to fire them!

I was bumping the velocity upwards on purpose, and it seems that at a certain point the boolits just gave up, as may be expected. However, there were some encouraging results, as well. Since abandoning H4831 for the reasons already stated, I moved down (up?) the burning-rate ladder to some faster powders, namely, commercial H4895, IMR 4320, and IMR 3031. All these powders function the rifle with authority in all loads tested yesterday, and in all cases as well, the brass was FAR cleaner than with 4831, indicating a much-better sealing of the chamber with the higher pressures obtained with faster powders.

I made one of my usual "calculated guesstimates" with the 4320 loads, and sure enough, the starting level was very safe and comfy. The next increments were a leetle hotter, and in the next go-round, I'll be loading DOWN from my initial level with 311467 (Loverin 180).

So:

All boolits were sized .311", water-dropped WW, Felix lube, all LC88 brass, CCI #34 primers.


SAECO #305, 167 grains, 28.0 H4895 NO FILL: 1865 fps average, 72 extreme spread, 24 std deviation, 1.4"/10 rds/50 yards.

same, WITH DACRON, 28.0 H4895: 1986 av, 71 es, 20 sd, 1.6"/10/50...dacron didn't do much except raise the speed a tad.

same, 30.0 H4895: 2038 av, 76 es, 26 sd, FOUR INCHES/10/50

same, 32.0 H4895: 2186 av, 59 es, 17 sd, 2.5"/10/50


311467, 180 Loverin, 28.0 H4895: 1891 av, 78 es, 21 sd, 1.5"/8/50 (two rounds called out)

same, 30.0 H4895: 2024 av, 80 es, 28 sd, 1.5"/10/50

same, 32.0 H4895: 2181 av, 102 es, 34 sd....this is where 467 quit on me...FIVE inches for FIVE rounds at 50! Brought the other five home with me.

same, 36.0 IMR 4320: 2275 av, 88 es, 27 sd: 4"/10/50


311291, 170 RN, 36.0 4320: 2242 av, 72 es, 22 sd, 3.8"/5/50, again, the last five came home with me. This VERY "roundnosed roundnose" functions perfectly in the M1A, BTW.

311413, 170 spire-point, 36.0 4320: 2243 av, 18 es, no sd, SIX inches for THREE rounds at 50!! (Sigh), seven more rounds to break down. All three boolit holes showed tipping, too.


311672, 170 semi-spitzer, 30.0 IMR 3031: 1936 av, 103 es, 31 sd, 2.0"/10/50

same, 31.0 3031: 1968 av, 118 es, 33 sd, 2.2"/10/50


311466, 150 loverin, 30.0 3031: 2047 av, 70 es, only 4 rds fired... FIVE-plus inches for FOUR rds/50. Guess where the remainder are? Didn't even fire the 31.0 load, and all ten are in the breaker's yard.

I seat both 311466 and 311467 to the same overall length, as they have identical nose shapes. I discovered yesterday that the length I've been using is TOO LONG to allow loaded rounds to be extracted from the chamber....they leave the boolits jammed in the throat! I'm rather surprised at this development, because the rounds function fine and have no hesitation in chambering. However, after two doses of 'powder-in-the-action-and-get-the-cleaning-rod-Charlie', I again am taking a hint and will check more carefully when I adopt a NEW seating depth for these boolits.

At about the 2000 fps mark, the rifle begins acting more like a service rifle and actually lifts off the rest a bit in recoil. Below that point, it's just a big ol' baby on
the bench.

After firing these higher-speed loads, inspection of the bore shows no particular fouling of any description, let alone leading. The interior shines like a mirror.

Again, I'm reporting in some detail in hopes that the info will be useful to other casters in the future. I'm really trying to establish safe-level loads for others to START from, not defining "the very bestest, most accuratest load" ....just good working levels with which to begin. There's not very much data out there for cast boolits in autoloading rifles.

Back to the drawing board.

[Scrounger]

HELL-oooo, Boys, I'm BAAAAaaack!!!!" (just before the F-15(?) crashes in a vertical climb into the alien ship's control center, "Independence Day")

F-16---Our only single seat fighter, I believe...

Oops, had to edit. Forgot about the Navy's F18...

[BruceB]

Now, now.... I put the subject in my post, so I reckon I'm the guilty party here (not that wandering topics draw much flak, thank Heaven).

The reason I put a "?" behind "F-15", is because I wasn't sure if it was a -15 or an -18, which are rather similar platforms. The F-16 is easily identified, with that big single airscoop under the cockpit, and the single tail empennage, and it wasn't a -16 that was pictured on the kamikaze climb.

I did a quick Google search on this, and all I came up with was a reference to Will Smith's character being "an F/A-18 pilot". I can't seem to locate our video copy of the movie, but it's here somewhere. Might have another viewing, if it turns up. Good summer entertainment (meaning, "Good to drink beer with, and ya don't have to think a whole lot, neither!".

I have to put a couple hundred LC88 cases in the tumbler now....

[BruceB]

In yesterday's episode, I found that while my starting-load selection with 4320 was right where I expected it be for velocities and pressures with the different bullets, the loads did NOT perform at all well as the charges were increased.

I therefore loaded three different bullet types with three incrementally-decreasing charges of 4320. The boolits were 311672, 311291, and 311467. The charges (of 4320) were 34.0, 32.0, and 30.0 grains, decreased from that starting load of yesterday, which was 36.0 grains.. I fired them in order of weight with each bullet...that is, I shot the 311291 loads in order from 30 to 32 to 34 grains, hoping to see any changes in behavior that might arise. I did see them, too.... The same order-of-fire was used with the other designs,as well.

Beginning with 311467, the 180 Loverin, the first round fired with 30.0 grains was over FOUR INCHES left of the point of aim. The next nine rounds were right in the x- and ten-ring of the 50-yd pistol center that I'm using at 50 yards (but folded in half to create a black semi-circle aiming mark). Velocity was 1816 fps average, 29 fps extreme spread, 9 fps std deviation. Group was 2.0"/9 rds/50 yds.... I didn't include the first round in the group measurement .

311467, 32.0 4320: 2000 av, 67 es, 18 sd...... and again, the FIRST round was fully four inches to the left of the group which developed in the x- and ten-rings! The remaining 9 rounds grouped 1.6".

311467, 32.0 4320: 2141 av, 63 es, 19 sd. All rounds landed within the so-called "group", which was 3.1"/10/50.

The flagrant straying of the first rounds absolutely mandates that I re-fire these loads with the addition of a dacron tuft. I strongly suspect that there's something going on with the powder positioning in the chambering of the first round, even though I just pull back the charging handle and release it to slam closed by itself. Since the same phenomenon repeated itself with 311291, although to a lesser degree, it may be that the powder is just on the edge of good burning, and the different positioning in the case might make the difference.

311291, the roundnose, illustrated clearly that yesterday's loads were driving too hard for its tastes.

311291, 30.0 4320: 1866 av, 95 es, 28 sd, 2.2"/10/50. The group was only 1/2" high, but spread pretty wide across the ten-ring.

same, 32.0 4320: 2055 av, 89 es, 27 sd, 3"/10/50.....just a loosely scattered group with nothing unusual about it.

same, 34.0 4320:2161 av, 124 es, 37 es...and a HORRIBLE 'group' (HA!), six- inches- plus in sprawl.

311672 did pretty well to begin with.

311672, 30. 0 4320: 1868 av, 79 es, 30 sd, 1.3"/10/50. Nice group, compared to some others!

same, 32.0 4320: 1976 av, 80 es, no sd reading, 1.6"/9/50... the tenth round was a flyer two inches out at 10:00, no explanation. It was called "good".

same, 34.0 4320: 2116 av, 116 es (high!), no sd reading, 2.5"/10/50....just a general loosening of the group as it neared the load levels from yesterday.

All rounds fired today functioned the rifle perfectly.

The Nevada zephyrs were out in force! It was so bad that I eventually found a BRICK (no kidding) which I used to dampen the flailing-around of my chronograph boom. I did this by duct-taping from the brick on the ground up to the outer end of the boom with considerable tension on the tape. I also had to run duct-tape from the boom just outside the rear doors of the van to the upwind side of the vehicle, to keep the boom from slewing violently down-wind in the gusts (I did this first, and added the brick rig later). The normal retaining notches were not up to the job in the gale.

I estimate the gusts at around 40 mph, and today was the first time I've felt the van actually moving very much in wind. It has a one-ton suspension, so it's pretty stiff. In the lulls which came occasionally, I'd sometimes fire three or four rounds in quick succession to take advantage of the condition. All the wind whistling through Der 'wagen kept barrel heat well under control. At only fifty yards, and with the wind mostly fish-tailing or quartering from behind, I don't believe it affected my results very much.

The learning process goes on....

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

When I want to shoot one of my tuned 1911's for a accrucacy test I never shoot the first round I jack into the chamber. I shoot it elsewhere, then I continue on with the test. I firmly believe SOMETHING is different with a round hand chambers then one chambered by the firearm in semi-auto firearms. You may be on to something with the powder position.

Joe

[BruceB]

I loaded ten rounds of the 311476/30.0 4320 recipe, PLUS DACRON, and took them to the range this morning.

The rifle was loaded with only one round in the magazine for test-firing, and this one-round routine was used with all ten rounds. With the single round in the mag, the operating handle was retracted and allowed to slam closed by itself.....repeated ten times, of course.

The flyers from yesterday, going four inches and more to the left, were NOT repeated. However, there were several shots which landed a couple inches high, out of the main group which formed in the ten- and x-rings.

At this load level, 4320 seems a bit fussy. I'd certainly prefer to find a powder which doesn't require dacron to give routinely-excellent accuracy. That's why I enjoy this hobby, I reckon; there's ALWAYS the possibility of something new the next time out.

[BruceB]

What better way to spend a few hours on July the Fourth, than exercising one of the great American Freedoms which are so rare in most of the world??

Changing the methodology a bit, the loads tested yesterday all used the Loverin 311466, nominally 150 grains cast in water-dropped straight wheelweight alloy, sized .311" and lubed with FWFL. No stunning accuracy resulted, but again I learned some info about different powders, etc. 311466 has worked very well for me in other .30 cartridges, so I expect some good things from it in the M1A as well.

All cases were new LC88, all primers were CCI #34. No fillers were used. The rifle functioned perfectly with all loads listed, and the range was fifty yards.

28.0 H335: 1893 fps average, 111 extreme spread, 33 sd. This load put the first three rounds under a half-inch at 9:00 in the ten-ring of the NRA 50-yard pistol target, then the POI shifted radically, two inches up and right for the next five rounds, which again grouped pretty well. The impact shift had me wondering, until I recalled a tendency for the gas plug to unscrew itself....sure enough, it had come out two full turns! Tightening the plug with a 3/8" box-end wrench which lives in the van just for that reason, I netted ANOTHER serious POI shift, this one placing the last two rounds of the ten a good three inches above the five-round group! These two holes were touching, five inches above the point of aim, and centered for windage. I lowered the sight setting before firing the next set of ten rounds.

30.0 H335: 2025 av, 57 es, 17 sd, 1.5"/10rds/50 yards

32.0 H335: 2144 av, 35 es, 10 sd, a scattery 3-inch horizontal-oval "group".

34.0 H335: 2256 av, 44 es, 15 sd, 2.25"/10/50

The earlier loads with 4831, discontinued due to malfunction-inducing unburned powder in the action, gave rise to the following attempts with IMR 4350:

35.0 IMR 4350: 1915 av, 93 es, 29 sd, 1.6"/10/50

37.0 IMR4350: 2080 av, 53 es, 16 sd, 1.4"/10/50.

There was NO unburnt powder visible anywhere in the action or bore, even with the 35.0 load. Both groups were nice and round, with no "strays". I'll definitely be doing more work with this powder-and-bullet combination! That second load looks very promising, so I'll re-fire it, plus loads with 1.0 grains lower and higher, just to see what they do. The 37.0 load is considerably more consistent in ballistic performance as demonstrated by the much-smaller extreme spread and standard deviation. The powder was obviously getting into a pressure range where it burned more efficiently.

I wasn't too impressed with IMR 3031's performance in a few previous loads, although I left a lot of stones unturned with it and will likely go back to it with different boolits. 4064 looked like a decent possibility, so:

28.0 IMR4064: 1762 av, 63 es, 21 sd, 1.1"/10/50.....not bad at all!

30.0 4064: 1923 av, 47 es, 19 sd, 1.2"/10/50, and seven rounds were clustered into 0.7"

32.0 4064, 2063 av, 115 es, 37 sd, groups starting to enlarge at 1.75"/10/50

34.0 4064: 2201 av, 76 es, 23 sd, 3.25"/10/50, but 8 rounds in 1.70".

Again, all the loads fired yesterday used 311466. One minute between shots, five minutes between strings, all rounds loaded into the magazine. Everything was loaded on the Dillon 550.

[felix]

Bruce, take it on up to 2400 fps with the two stick powders. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

BruceB

Paaaaaleeeeeeze!!!!!!!!

"Tightening the plug with a 3/8" box-end wrench which lives in the van just for that reason"

There is supposed to be a combitnation tool along with the rest of the cleaning kit in the butt of that very fine rifle!! A wrench benders tool.....how sacraligious! Send me a PM with your address and I'l fix you up right.

Larry Gibson

[BruceB]

Now, now, Larry, take it easy, ol' pard....

I think all I'm losing with my little 3/8 wrench is some "style points", because I know the proper torque is calculated in inch-pounds, not "mega-reefs". The wrench I'm using is just about the same length as the issue device, so I'm probably not overdoing it. I am short one of the proper combo tools, and I forget all about it each time I go to the Big Reno Show.

Took the M1A out again today, and I "cranked up the volume" as Felix suggested.

It was interesting, if nothing else.

All loads with the same 311466, 150 grains+/-, straight WW, .311", Felix lube.

36.0 IMR 4350: 1883 av, 121 es, no reading for sd. 2.4"/10 rds/50 yards.

37.0 4350: 1961 av, 70 es, 19 sd. 1.8"/10/50

38.0 4350: 2057 av, 96 es, 27 sd. 1.9"/10/50

39.0 4350: 2108 av, 60 es, 19 sd. 1.0"/8/50. This was where I took a page from Buckshot's Bible and began disregarding a new problem with these loads....first-round flyers! With this particular load, the first round was three inches away from the 1" group, and the second round was somewhat less-wild.

40.0 4350: 2187 av, 59 es, 17 sd. 1.5"/9/50...and the first round was 2.8 inches above the group.

41.0 4350: 2240 av, 77 es, 28 sd. 1.0"/8/50. First round was 3 inches out at 1:00, second was 2 inches out at 9:00

Switching to IMR 4198 didn't stop the first-round problems.

26.0 4198: 2067 av, 25 es, 9 sd. 1.4"/9/50, and the first one was 3 inches away at 2:00.

27.0 4198: 2147 av, 58 es, 14 sd. 1.0"/8/50, first one 2.5" high and second round out at 4:00.

28.0 4198: forgot to turn on the chronograph! Scattery horizontal group 2.6" wide by maybe an inch high.

29.0 4198: 2267 av, 68 es, 21 sd. Groups opening up at this speed...2.2"/10/50, with 6 rounds in one inch.

30.0 4198: 2341 av, 69 es, 21 sd.....I didn't have the heart to measure this one, as it was over six inches in a vertical string.

A couple of loads with 3031...

32.0 3031: 2168 av, 39 es, 15 sd. 3.3"/10/50......ick.

34.0 3031: 2373 av, 73 es, no sd. 5.7"/10/50!!! Seven rounds managed to assemble in 1.5".

And I finished the day with a pair of IMR 4064 combos.

36.0 4064: 2364 av, 56 es, 20 sd. 4.2"/10/50, just a loose shotgun pattern with no clear tendencies. Same applies to....

38.0 4064: 2491 av, 162 es(!), 51 sd. 5"/10/50/

These targets were all fired from a very solid rest, and none of the bad shots were "called". The rifle functioned perfectly, as usual, and some may note that I used 4198 again, which I hadn't done since a couple of loads were short-stroking the rifle a few months back. It works just fine with four additional grains of powder, and my top load today was still seven full grains below Lyman's 311466/4198 max load.

As the charges of the different powders were raised, it was interesting to watch the ejection pattern change as well. The lighter ones would toss the brass back over my right shoulder (I'm a lefty), and when the top loads were reached, the cases were heading out at around 2:00, which means that the port pressure was very close to what the rifle gets with service ammunition.

I hadn't stripped the rifle for many weeks, and it seemed like a good idea to do that now, since the most-recent loads were getting well up there. If any "leading" was going to occur, it might just be there after today's shoot. NO SIREEE! The piston was well-carboned, as was the gas cylinder, but there were NO metallic deposits whatever. The action was very dirty, but the only foreign metal in that area was tiny bits of brass mixed with the usual black crud. The bore is brilliant, and I didn't bother touching it with anything.

It took ' bout twenty minutes work, and she's ready for another thousand rounds!

[BruceB]

The first-round flyers were nagging at me, so I did a quick test with dacron fill to see what might happen.

I loaded ten rounds each of 36, 37, 38, 39, and 40 grains of IMR4350, still using the 311466 bullet as before, and each round had a small dacron tuft added. There's not much room in a .308 case when forty grains of bulky powder is installed, but I wanted to try dacron just in case there was enough powder movement to make a difference. These same charges WITHOUT dacron were among those which gave the first-round-flyer results in the previous shooting.

Another possible factor (I thought) might just be all the crud, sludge and corruption which had built up in the action over the previous hundreds of rounds, and which just possibly could be making the bolt lockup slightly different when closing from the hold-open catch instead of rebounding off the back of the receiver. These latest loads were fired from the CLEAN rifle, as described in my last post. Functioning was flawless, if I have to say it.

Nope!

The groups stayed just about the same as they were without dacron, and the first-round flyers are still evident. In a way, this is a bit of a relief, since I really wasn't looking forward to using dacron in each of the hundreds of rounds I expect to be loading when a final load is determined.

Back to the drawing board. I'll try another bullet design in the next attempt, I do believe.

[StarMetal]

Bruce,

Try this and let me know what it does. Single shoot the rounds. That is single load them, not fire a magazine full. I suspect that when an action is hand operated on the first round that something is different then when the rifle functions itself.

Joe

[grumpy one]

Bruce, since you are not cleaning the rifle between groups, just what is different about those first rounds that is causing flyers? If you always get them, it has to be something that happens every time, but it obviously isn't the difference in powder charge or it would apply to every round fired with the new charge. Are you pausing for cool-down between groups, but not within groups? If so, this could be a barrel-temperature thing perhaps.

Your description just doesn't say what is different when you start a new group, compared with all of the other shots you are firing - but if there is a distinctive difference in the results then something clearly is different, you just haven't yet stated what it is.

Geoff

[grumpy one]

Bruce,

Try this and let me know what it does. Single shoot the rounds. That is single load them, not fire a magazine full. I suspect that when an action is hand operated on the first round that something is different then when the rifle functions itself.

Joe

Sorry Joe, I guess the replication time to Australia caught me out here - I didn't need to post, since you had already said pretty much the same thing.


Geoff

[BruceB]

Reviewing where I've been with this rifle and its ammunition, it occurred to me that perhaps the quicker-burning end of the chart needed some more attention. 4198, for instance, was giving a few positive hints along the way.

Going back in my records with other calibers of roughly-similar volume, I found some indicators that XMP5744 might be worth a trial. I KNOW it works very well with cast boolits in such as the .30-40 and .303, but....would it function in a gas-operated autoloader???

Using both 311466 (150 grains) and 311467 (170 grains) I loaded a series of test recipes with 22, 23, 24, 25, and 26 grains of 5744. That is, ten rounds of each charge weight were loaded under BOTH bullets, for a total of 100 rounds. What really made this simple was that the boolits are the same shape and seated to the same overall length, meaning no die adjustments were needed during the process.

Bullets are straight WW, sized .311", water-dropped from the mould and lubed with Felix stuff. Brass is LC88 military, primers CCI #34.

311466 (150 grains):

22.0 5744: 1821 average, 56 extreme spread, 16 std deviation, 2.4"/10 rds/50 yards. The rifle worked s-l-o-w-l-y.....but it did work, going "schlunk...schlunk" as it functioned. It even locked open after the last round. Recoil was comically light. Note that the velocity is fairly high for a starting load, while port pressure was obviously quite low due to the quick burning-rate of the 5744.

23.0 5744: 1933 av, 38 es, 14 sd. 2.6"/10/50...but 8 in 1.0"!

24.0 5744: 1996 av, 38 es, 12 sd. 1.2"/10/50

25.0 5744: 2070 av, 45 es, 12 sd. 1.4"/10/50, but nine rounds in 0.9"!!

26.0 5744: 2126 av, 41 es, 13 sd. This is where the 466 got unhappy, and the group was fully 3" for 10 rounds, with all shots called "good".


311467 (170 grains):

22.0 5744: 1796 av, 41 es, 11 sd. 2.4"/10/50

23.0 5744: 1899 av, 46 es, 14 sd. 2.4"/10/50

24.0 5744: 1945 av, 27 es, 8 sd. 1.8"/10/50

25.0 5744: 2011 av, 66 es, 19 sd. 2.2"/10/50

26.0 5744: 2062 av, 30 es, 9 sd. 2.0"/9/50, and a first-round flyer an inch further out.

Pressures were my main concern in working-up with this relatively-fast powder. It was easy to see the differences in primer contours as pressure went up, and also the ejection pattern changed along with the increasing charges. The gasport pressure never did get to "factory" level, judging by the fall of the cases. However, chamber pressure was certainly healthy at the top of the series. Even so, the primers NEVER came anywhere close to flattening as much as they do with a match-standard load with 168 Matchkings at 2600 fps. My ease in confidently "reading primers" is an advantage arising from the fact that I have never, ever, used a primer other than the #34 in this rifle, from the day I got it, or brass other than my original batch of unfired LC88.

Once the charge got into the 24-grain area, the functioning was very positive and clearly the ammo had plenty of oomph for a reserve of functioning "power".

The rifle shows a definite preference for the 466 over the 467 boolit. I didn't encounter much in the way of tipping or yawing indications, which were quite evident with 467 and H4831 powder in earlier testing.

I'm glad I tried 5744. It's certainly not an obvious candidate for gas-operated rifles, but it surely works well in this one! Next, I'll try a couple other bullet designs in the same weight range with 5744 and see what jumps out of the bushes. Note that the first-round flyer idiosyncracy was almost non-existent, too.

I love going to the range with an experimental purpose in mind!

[BruceB]

Sorry for omitting this, because I really appreciate all consultations.

The first-round flyer has been bothersome in quite a few loads. Somewhere back in this long thread, I related how I tried just such an experiment as you gents are recommending. I used only a single round in the magazine, and manually chambered that round for firing....repeated ten times, so that each round was equivalent to a first round from a full magazine.

Nothing earthshaking was evident in the results.

I REALLY want to have a load that puts the first one (the IMPORTANT one!) right in the middle of where the following boolits will land. A couple of times today, I had the first three or four bullets literally cutting into the same large-ish hole, and that was sure sweet to see. It makes me think that perhaps I do not have a bedding problem or other such woes.

Man alive, I can hardly wait to get back out with another bunch of test ammo.....not before Sunday, unfortunately, or even Monday if my weary butt is dragging too badly after night shift on Sunday morning.

[BruceB]

Having recently achieved some limited success with 5744 in the M1A, I turned to some different boolit designs with the same powder. The ones fired today were 311291 (170 RN) 311413 (170 spirepoint) 311672 (167 semi-pointed, small flat meplat) and SAECO #305 (180 flatpoint...much liike 311041). All were water-dropped WW sized .311, with Felix lube and Hornady gaschecks.

All the above designs were loaded in batches of ten rounds, with charges of 23, 24, 25 and 26 grains of XMP 5744. Some of these were so bad that I didn't finish shooting all the increments. If I don't report the "group" for any combo, rest assured that you do NOT want to know!

311413:

23.0 5744: 1890 av, 48 es, 15 sd

24.0 5744: 1951 av, 45 es, 14 sd

25.0 5744: 2018 av, 49 es, 17 sd

26.0 5744: 2113 av, 79 es, 25 sd


311291:

23.0 5744: 1903 av, 48 es, 15 sd

24.0 5744: 1966 av, 43 es, 18 sd

DNF 25.0 and 26.0 loads....it was that bad!


311672:

23.0 5744: 1910 av, 32 es, 9 sd

24.0 5744: 1944 av, 20 es, 9 sd

DNF 25.0 and 26.0 loads....


SAECO #305

.... Thank Heaven SOMETHING worked today; I wuz getting bummed-out:

23.0 5744: 1905 av, 51 es, 14 sd, 1.2"/10rds/50yards, and 8 rounds in 1.0"

24.0 5744: 1969 av, 45 es, 14 sd, 0.8"/8/50 with two rounds called out (dang it).

25.0 5744: 2042 av, 36 es, 10 sd, 1.6"/10/50. Not impressive, but good compared to some of the earler "groups" today!

26.0 5744: 2109 av, 42 es, 13 sd....scattered group of about 2.5".

The rifle worked perfectly...yeah, I know it's boring but I still enjoy saying it.

Went out very early to avoid the 100-plus heat forecast for later on. After stopping for gas, drinkables, and ice for rifle barrels and drinks, I fired the first round about 0730.

Right now it appears that SAECO #305 and 311466 willl get more attention with 5744. The others? They'll keep until I exhaust my present plans for 5744, and then I think maybe I might cautiously try Re-7. We'll see.

[BruceB]

Went shooting this morning, starting at about 0715 to beat the worst of the heat.

130 rounds of 7.62 NATO were fired, but I have to confess that I am AMAZED at the make-up of those cartridges, or at least, the fact that they functioned in an autoloading battle rifle.

If someone had told me, before I started tilting at this particular windmill, that powders I normally consider to be mostly PISTOL powders would work rather well in my M1A, I likely would have laughed at the idea. Not now!

As mentioned in my last post, I did select some loads for REloder-7 for trials. Then, taking a hard look at several burning-rate charts and some personal back records as well, I decided to try a series with IMR 4227, too.

With Lyman's latest Handbook (not the CB handbook) to guide me on RE-7, I had no worries at all as to load levels. My stair-step series ended five grains below Lyman's max load with 311466. 4227 needed considerably more thought, and where I was comfy with 2-grain steps with RE-7, I took the precaution of using one-grain increments with 4227 in deference to its rather more "sudden" personality.

I seem to be having considerable success forecasting starting and ending points for my loads in this rifle. Today's powders were just at the ragged edge of functioning the rifle with the starting loads, and at the upper end of the series they were right at the point I'd say "enough". I'm no hot-rodder, and the pressures were certainly getting brisk in the CHAMBER...not at the gasport.

Note that when chamber pressures are up into normal working ranges for the cartridge, but gasport pressures are still low, we have a pretty neat combination. This is because the powder is burning well in its normal range, and yet the action is NOT being "over-driven", with such things as bent rims from extraction or burred rims from hard ejections, or excessively-hard bolt impacts with the back of the receiver, etc.

Nothing much jumped out in the accuracy department, but it does seem that 311466 is happier in this application than SAECO 305. With the quicker powders, 466 also continued to group (sort of) at higher speeds than it has with slower fuels.

So: LC88 brass, CCI #34 primers.

311466, water-dropped ww alloy, .311", Felix lube:


Reloder-7:

24.0 grains: 1856 average, 22 extreme spread, 9 std deviation, 1.8"/10 rds/50yds
The rifle functioned well with this load and all other RE-7 loads

26.0 grains: 2083 av, 38 es, 12 sd, 2.0"/10/50.....six rounds in a very tight cluster

28.0 grains: 2174 av, 60 es, 18 sd, 2.5"/10/50...some boolits showing some tipping

30.0 grains: 2288 av, 60 es, 17 sd, 3.2"/10/50...clearly past 466's "happy zone" and pressures were getting up there. Primers still weren't as flat as in my Matchking loads, though.


311466, IMR 4227

22.0 grains: 1934 av, 26 es, 7 sd, 1.9"/10/50. Rifle ejecting but NOT feeding.

23.0 grains: 1983 av, 48 es, 14 sd, 2.0"/10/50, rifle feeding most rounds but short-stroking about 3 times. Locked open on last round.

24.0 grains: 2052 av, 45 es, 14 sd, 1.5"/10/50, perfect function.

25.0 grains: 2100 av, 46 es, 11 sd, 1.4"/10/50

26.0 grains: 2176 av, 35 es, 10 sd, 3.2"/10/50, 1st-round flyer. Again, 466 moves out of the preferred speed range.


SAECO #305, same specs as 311466 above.

RE-7 LOADS:

24.0 grains: 1949 av, 27 es, 8 sd, 1.8:/10/50. Rifle functioning slowly but reliably.

26.0 grains: 2031 av, 82 es, 28 sd, 1.9"/10/50

28.0 grains: 2143 av, 43 es, 14 sd, 2.5"/10/50

30.0 grains: 2222 av, 26 es, 9 sd, very poor group, scattered to 3.5" and the first round 3" above anything else.

There were some interesting clusters in a few groups, which warrant some attention and re-trying..

Also, it so happens that when testing some RE-7 loads in my .303 #4, the mere addition of a tiny bit of dacron took the group from FOUR INCHES at 50 yards to barely an inch, with no other changes. I think I'll re-fire the RE-7 series using dacron the next time. Might's well do the same with 4227, too, as long as I'm at it.

[BruceB]

Hied meself forth in the early sunlight this morning, armed with 150 rounds of 7.62 which ALL contained a bit of dacron.

Not much appeared to result from the inclusion of the fuzzy stuff. One puzzling thing was that the same 4227 loads which functioned the rifle just fine a day or so back, now refused to feed reliably with loads which were identical except for the dacron. By this, I mean that on many rounds, the bolt closed on the empty chamber, having failed to come back far enough to pick up the next round. It was sorta like "ball and dummy" training, and I was happy to see that my trigger control was pretty good and the sights did not move when the big "click" happened...

I took along loads with 311466 ( the 150 Loverin), 311467 (170 Loverin), SAECO #305 (170 RN flat-tip), a couple recipes with 311672 and 4227, and even five rounds with 311299 loaded over 4227, and sized at .314".

Within this 150 rounds was a trial run using .3095" sizing instead of the .311+ I've used since Day One. Compared with two otherwise-identical .311" loads with RE-7, the .3095 boolits did not display any difference in performance or grouping. All the RE-7 loads did function normally, incidentally, unlike the 4227 loads.

Today I was seeing the sights VERY well, in comparison to some other sessions lately. I just wish I knew why, so I could duplicate the condition! This eagle-eyeball did not help most of the groups, but I did isolate a couple of loads for further work. The addition of two grains of powder (26.0 RE-7 vs 28.0 grains) turned the target results from a one-inch group of ten 311467s into a four-inch sprawl.

Naturally, I'll be going back to try more loads with this combo, around the 23-to-27-grain levels.

The rifle has now fired about 3000 rounds, and apart from about 400 168 Matchkings (for break-in, although I do NOT follow the shoot-one-clean-shoot-one-clean etc etc rigamarole) all have been cast boolits. The bore has been cleaned exactly once, after the jacketed loads were fired. I've cleaned the chamber a few times but left the bore untouched, as it was brilliantly shiny every time I checked. It may be time to clean it and re-visit the jacketed (Matchking) loads again, just to see how current results compare to the early trials. Since the first-round flyers were evident a few times today, I'll be interested to see if the service-level 168 Matchkings (around 2600 fps) also display this phenomenon.

I'm instructing at work tomorrow, but Tuesday should find me looking for more answers at the range. My 8-day "weekend" got neatly bisected by this one day as teacher!

[BruceB]

As mentioned in the last installment, I loaded fifty rounds with the 170-grain 311467 and RE-7, in loads running through 22.0 grains (with and without dacron), 23.0 (with and without dacron) and 24.0 grains without dacron.

Not much in the way of accuracy was achieved, and the 24.0 load sans dacron was AWFUL.

Intending to do a jacketed-bullet test, I'd loaded a couple of hundred Matchkings the night before, as well. Being both (a) lazy and (b) curious, I decided to just go ahead and fire the condom loads without cleaning the rifle's bore. Turns out that it didn't matter. Three consecutive 10-round groups all went just under 0.80 inches from 50 yards. The only possible indication that cast-boolit fouling MIGHT have had some limited effect was that the first string showed a slightly higher extreme spread in speed than did the second and third strings:

Sierra 168 Matchking, 41.0 H4895:

String #1: 2630 average, 72 extreme spread, 19 std deviation

#2: 2650 av, 64 es, 19 sd

#3: 2644 av, 22 es, 6 sd.

311467:

22.0 RE-7, NO dacron: 1718 av, 91 es, 32 sd...1st round 4" high, 2nd round 2" low from center of the loose "group" of eight.

22.0 RE-7 WITH dacron: 1783 av, 51 es, 17 sd

23.0 RE-7, NO dacron: 1786 av, 43 es, 16 sd.

23.0 RE-7 WITH dacron: 1852 av, 31 es, 9 sd. This grouped worse than the no-dacron 23.0 load.

24.0 RE-7, NO dacron: 1848 av, 33 es, 10 sd, and this one was the worst of all.

All in all, not much of a red-letter day for my cast loads.

This day's shooting pretty well rules out any flaw in the rifle itself, as far as those first-round flyers are concerned. The first two jacketed bullets literally cut the same hole, and the following eight rounds just enlarged it. Chambering of the first round was accomplished exactly the same way as I do with the cast loads. I had a refreshing change from all the 50-yard shooting I've been doing, and gave myself and the rifle a workout on rocks and bunchgrass out to around 300 yards or so. This served both of us well, reminding us that a good rifle can reach waaaaay out there with considerable confidence. Fun!

SOMETHING is going on here that I have yet to identify. The search continues.

[brian]

BruceB,
Thanks for this report. I'll be getting an M1A (finally) and am very interested in light loads and CBs. Can you comment further on the condition of the gas tube and piston. I'm curious if you're getting any lead plating in the tube or on the piston. My M1A will be used. It isn't a "loaded" one but just the standard plane jane version. However it doesn't have a GI barrel (4 groove 1-12 twist, chrome lined) but has a regular non chromed CM barrel, but at 1-11.25" twist. Any thoughts?
Have you considered trying either the Lee C312-155-2R or the RCBS 30-165-SIL in the 308? I'd like to find a CB load that does several things besides group well.
a. function the action reliably but softly.
b. when seated to load in magazine and not jam into lands, has bullet base wholly in neck (though at the bottom I'd guess) and yet doesn't have exposed lube grooves to pick up lint, dirt, etc.
c. Have enough MV to make hitting at 100 to 200 yards reasonable with out major elevation changes.
d. non leading of course.
e. reliable magazine feeding.

So thanks for the data so far. It'll be a couple of weeks before I can get mine. In the meantime if you find a miracle load, please let me know.
Thanks,
Brian
Arizona.

[robertbank]

I have died and gone to heaven - damn I love this site!

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

BruceB - been working on my loads for my M 14. Trying to get WC735 to work. (About 10% faster than H335). Been getting high ES with SD in the low 20's. What has been you rexperience with H335 beyond what you have reported here. I am kind of stuck with 311291 and 311041 boolits for this gun and have yet to try the 311041 boolits. I may be wrong but this surplus powder seems to do better in the 30-30 and smaller cases. Thoughts?

Take Care

Bob

ps We have had temperatures in th elow 30's at the range this past week. Kind of one week of Nevada year round.:mrgreen: Gotta find a place down there in the low rent district to sit out the winters.

[rigmarol]

Bruce,
Thanks for pointing me here from the handloaders forum this morning. I've read your "Journal of Discovery" and it reads quite nicely. You've done a fine job of documentation. I've had my M1A for over 2 weeks now and it's driving me nuts not to shoot it! The heat here in California has been way up there so the range even early in the morning is just too hot.

Thanks again for the info.

[quasi]

BruceB, thankyou for all of this research, it is very valuble. I believe you are using Lake City brass. Can you make a few comments on your case life, resizing methods (ie; full length, partial, neck, small base ) , loading methods etc.

It is nice to see you using 10 shot groups.

[BruceB]

Qasi, you raise a very important point, and one which I don't believe was really addressed in the course of this trek with the M1A.

I believe it is CRITICALLY important in M1/M1A rifles from the safety standpoint, that all cases are full-length sized. All other concerns (such as accuracy) are decidedly secondary to the proper sizing of brass for these rifles.

The reason lies in the design of the firing mechanisms. The firing pins in both rifles are of free-floating design, meaning they are unrestrained by springs or any other mechanical means. A glance at a round which has been chambered semi-automatically, but NOT fired, will show a dimple in the unfired primer. The dimple is caused by the firing pin exerting its inertia on the primer after forward motion of the bolt has ended.

Failure of partly-resized cases to chamber FREELY can lead to firing pin impacts with the case partly OUTSIDE the chamber and with the bolt unlocked. There have been enough partly-open-bolt slamfires in the rifle type to warrant serious concern in this matter. They are generally disastrous.

One more safety concern: due to the above condition of the firing pin impacting the primers, single loading can INCREASE the risk. If a single round is chambered by hand, and then the bolt is allowed to slam forward from its rear-most locked-open position, the bolt is traveling FASTER than it does in semi-auto firing. The effort expended in stripping a round from magazine or clip slows the bolt's speed considerably, and thus decreases the force of the firing pin's impact on the primer. SO, when single-loading an M1/M1A, allow the bolt to move forward under hand control to about half-way along its travel, and then release it. There will still be ample energy to lock the action closed on the round, and the possibility of a slam-fire is greatly reduced.

My primers for M1A/M1 are CCI#34, a magnum-strength 'military' primer. I have no plans to change. However, I used standard CCI#200s in my M1s, M1As, and M-14s in Canada for years, without difficulty. I would NOT consider using any pistol primer in these rifles, preferring to remain on the safe side.

So, to your question about my sizing routine: My "normal" routine right now calls for full-length sizing in an RCBS small-base .308 die. However, loading under some time pressure before the Nevada Cast Bullet Shoot last month, I managed to tear the rim off a case in my small-base die. Due to lack of time, I simply substituted my standard .308 sizer (non-small-base) and continued the run. No problems resulted, which was expected since I'd loaded thousands of rounds for earlier M-14s in Canada with the same die. Do I recommend the small-base die? YES, just for a bit more certainty and peace of mind.

A change is in the works, though. I now have an RCBS X-die (available in small-base configuration), which limits case-length growth to a very large degree. (Search for Larry Gibson's wonderful discussion of this die for M1A ammo.) The use of the X-die has been delayed while I rebuild the vertical column of my Unimat, to get enough clearance for an also-new Forster drill-press-mounted case trimmer. I want NOTHING to do with hand-trimming a thousand 7.62 cases!

Yep, my brass WAS unfired LC 7.62 NATO from GI Brass, but it sure's heck isn't "unfired" now! Cast-bullet pressures are apparently so low and so easy on the brass, that I have yet to discard even ONE case due to "wearing it out".

I use an L.E. Wilson .308 case gauge to check every single loaded round. I view this as an essential safety check for any semi-auto ammo I load, in any caliber. If a round fails to "chamber" easily in the gauge, I FIND OUT WHY....usually it's just a burr on the case rim from ejection or extraction, and the burr is easily removed with a needle file. However, if the round still doesn't enter the gauge freely, I turf it. No messing around, just get rid of it.

The gauge offers an easy way both to set the sizing die (size until the case seats flush with the rear face of the gauge) and also to check case length, because ANY protrusion of the case mouth beyond the front of the gauge indicates an over-length case. I have not had that problem yet, with at least three or four firings of all my brass with cast-bullet loads.

GET THE GAUGE, AND USE IT RELIGIOUSLY!!!!! It's about the best $20 we can spend, for insurance and confidence value.

I trust this answers your questions. Thanks for raising the subject, because it needed some airing.

[robertbank]

Your last post here probably saved me a "surprise" I didn't need. Someone once said "ignorance is bliss" - he wasn't a reloader!

Thanks again for this and your earlier comments this morning.

Take Care

Bob

[quasi]

this thread needs to be "stickyed"

[45nut]

this thread needs to be "stickyed"

Agreed,,and done.

[quasi]

thankyou 45 nut. This is the best shooting based forum on the internet, in my opinion. There is quality discussion, instruction, experimentation, and story-telling without the sniping and imaturity most other forums have.

[fatelvis]

Is it just a coincidence that the best shooting bullet here was a 311466, and there is now a Group Buy open, for the same? Hmmmmm....... I'm in!

[4t5]

OK. I received my 311466 mold and done casted me up some boolits. I saw in another thread where you used 2.620 as the OAL. I scientifically confirmed that this will work in my rifle using my Stony Point gizmo. At the 2.620 OAL, there are 2 lube grooves exposed beyond the case mouth. I am new at this and am not sure if I supposed to lube all of the grooves or just the ones inside the case neck. It seems to me that if sand got stuck to the exposed lube, it could cause damage to the bore. Also, it sure looks to me like the gas check and possibly the first lube groove are below the case neck. Are there any issues with this?

[miestro_jerry]

I have some reservations about shooting lead thru an M1A. I went thru boot camp with the M-14 and had to keep it really clean, but not as clean as my M-16. I have shoot many M1A and similar rifles since then, currently I own three M1As and a Fulton M14. One of my M1A is a ultra Match setup to shoot like the M21 that I shoot in the Army many years ago.

Lead in the gas operating system and the infamous dirty spindle valve is my biggest concern. I normally shoot Sierra 169gr BTHP in Lapua brass, the load is really a simple one: 43.7gr of IMR 4895.

As that my eye sight requires bifocal correction these days, I can only shoot ground hogs at about 300 yards, back when I was young, I could do 600 yards. Of course, I went off to the war with a M16.

Jerry

[BruceB]

jerry;

Have you actually READ this entire thread?

Did you see where my M1A ran for hundreds upon hundreds of rounds WITHOUT "lead fouling" in gas system or barrel?

The rifle works just fine with cast bullets.

[fatelvis]

I'm in the process of loading up some of Bruce's 24.0/5744 loads, (using our GB mould), and trying them in a nice clean barrel. My M1A wears a Douglas heavy match barrel, has a trigger job with a nice 4lb. 2 stage trigger, is bedded, fitted match sights, and outstandingly accurate with 168 Sierras. Now that ARs have shown to posess an edge in Highpower, I dont use it any more to compete. Hopefully I get close to the grouping he was getting! It will be interesting (to me) to see how cast bullets shoot out of a full blown target rifle. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

[fatelvis]

I seat both 311466 and 311467 to the same overall length, as they have identical nose shapes. I discovered yesterday that the length I've been using is TOO LONG to allow loaded rounds to be extracted from the chamber....they leave the boolits jammed in the throat!
Bruce, I'm in the process of loading up some 311466s for shooting out of my M1A, and was wondering what actual OAL you were loading your rounds to. Were any of the lube grooves showing? Thanks-

[0802]

Bruce -- I've followed this thread with interest for quite some time. So, after all the great testing and evaluation, what's your preferred load? I've looked over it several times and didn't find your "conclusion." Maybe I can't see the forest for the trees.

Also, can you post pictures or provide some details on your drill press mounted Forster case trimmer that you mention in the post? I'd like to try to rigger up something similar.

Thanks,
Josh