What is best controlled expansion 45-70 bullet?

[Naphtali]

In your experience what is the best controlled expansion bullet, cast or commercial jacketed, for use on large soft-skinned game? By "controlled expansion" I mean the bullet will expand while losing little or none of its original weight. Bullets weight must be between 350 grains and 480 grains.

The rifle is a 45-70. Bullet's crimp-to-nose length (or cannelure-to-nose) must be .440 inch or less. Nose shape must satisfactory for tubular magazines.

Pressures would be between 40K and 43K CUP -- that is, at the high end of safe for modern Marlin 1895 and Miroku M1886 actions, as would be expected muzzle velocities.

Maximum range for which rifle and ammunition is to be used is 140 yards, with 100 yards a more likely maximum range. The extra is "wiggle room."

[Maineboy]

This is a Lee 405FP shot shot at 1625 fps out of my 1895 Marlin into a row of milk jugs filled with water. I can't remember if it penetrated 4 or 5 or 6 jugs. It was cast from wheel weights and pure lead, about a 60-40 mixture if I remember right. The boolit weighed 415 grains as cast and I don't recall what it weighed when I recovered it but it held together quite well.

[Bass Ackward]

I think that you have to realize there are different types of material encountered in every animal of every toughness range and the shot that you like to take makes a different answer. There are guys that only take chest cavity shots. And there are guys that like to break the shoulders. Obviously you have different size bone and material densities.

Chest cavities are only 1 1/2" of combined hair hide and bone seperated by 14" of air if you miss the heart. How hard is that to penetrate? The simplest solution is to use enough weight that it just doesn't matter how much is lost. And that varies with the size of the game. I prefer to use weight instead of hardness.

So what I have found works for me is to use the water jug set-up that David mentions. I add wet news print in front of that to represent the hair hide thickness. Then I will even throw in some bone of appropriate size and spray paint the bone's location on the wet news print for POA. I use this to test cause water lets you see shock and penetration.

Then after I shoot my game, I can relate "game results" to what I saw on the medium test that I used. Then as I want to change hardness or something, I can better judge my results before they are used on game. As an example, for deer, I want to see the first two jugs explode. That means I get shock on a chest shot. Then if it penetrates 4 jugs, I am good for at least a quartering shot. 5 jugs has never been recovered from a deer at any angle. Key word there is any.

But what is KEY HERE is that you MUST pick one form of medium (what ever that is) and stick with it or your ability to draw conclusions will never develop. There is no perfect game medium. So the equating of the two is the best we have to go on.

[Four Fingers of Death]

hard to beat cast boolits (I am a little biased) in a big bore at least. If you must shoot jacketed and want excellent performance, try the Woodleighs, they are a safari grade bullet. I used to love the Speer 400Gn softpoint. A bit softer but a lot bigger going out then coming in :) Cheap and readily available as well.

[Naphtali]

I've put this query in more than one forum because I'm at the place where much money is to be invested. I have three rifles. I want to render one of them "the rifle" and dispose of the others. The cost for conversion to 510 Kodiak Express is so high that what popped into my head was: "Can I achieve essentially identical impact performance by using controlled expansion bullets?" Were the bullets to be overpriced, I might still invest significantly less for 500-1000 bullets for a lifetime hunting than the conversion cost.

My experience to date with cast bullets is they don't expand. I've been querying and downloading everything I can find on differentially heat treating cast bullets. As I type, I feel more confident in the performance of a commercially available controlled expansion bullet than in my ability to differentially harden -- until I actually do so effectively.

Until last night I was unaware that Swift offers their A-Frame bullets in configuration satisfactory for use in 45-70. If I confirm this, the pressure is off. Bullets are expensive, but compared with conversion costs -- chump change.

[Doc Highwall]

For deer size animals I would use the Remington 405gr, and if it has teeth and claws I would use the Speer 400gr.

[Larry Gibson]

Same as Doc with jacketed bullets; "For deer size animals I would use the Remington 405gr, and if it has teeth and claws I would use the Speer 400gr."

For cast in a lever gun I would use the RCBS 45-405-FN. It is GC bullet and I would cast it of 1-16 tin-lead alloy. lube with Javelina, use Hornady GCs and size as cast. I'd load it over 4895 to between 1650 and 1750 fps. I'd zero the rifle and go hunting.

I use a similar bullet in my Mauser bolt action 45-70 (pressures of that bullet over 4895 to that velocity is safe for lever guns like yours). It will smash through hide, bones, muscle and guts of most all big game critters. The bullet will expand and hold together as well as any. The GC will allow those velocities with that alloy. Lets a lot of air in, a lot of blood out.

Larry Gibson

[Doc Highwall]

The Speer 400gr bullet was designed to be shot in the 458Win Mag as well as the Marlin 1895 and has two cannulars for crimping, one for the 458Win and one for the 45-70. It will take all the velocity that you can give it from a 45-70. For cast I just picked up RCBS 45-500 FNGC, and it is .420" from nose to crimp groove with a .280 wide nose for my 16.5" 1895 Marlin

[Woodtroll]

Naphtali,

The first thing that popped into my mind when I read your description was, "he wants a paper-patched bullet!". For quite a few years now my deer hunting round has been a .45-70 shooting a 340-grain 30:1 lead:tin bullet, originally designed as an LBT .454 WLN 320 grain revolver bullet (much heavier when it is nearly pure lead). I size it down to .451 in a Lee die, wrap it in a couple wraps of paper and shoot it over some 3031, and the deer just say "WHOP" and fall down! I have never recovered a bullet from a deer, but testing in wet newspapers shows PLENTY of expansion, and excellent weight retention.

For bigger game than whitetails, use a heavier bullet, a little slimmer nose profile, and/or a little harder alloy to get more penetration. As long as it is a true lead-tin alloy (no antimony), it will mushroom yet hold together very well.

Regardless of what folks say, paper patching still works, works well, and works with smokeless too! Go ask this same question in the paper-patch forum and see what answers you get.

Hope this helps! Take care,

Regan

[Naphtali]

. . . The first thing that popped into my mind when I read your description was, "he wants a paper-patched bullet!". . .
ReganThis is the second time I've seen a reference to paper patched bullets. I know zip about them. I understand less. Where might I find detailed information how to create such a bullet, what "paper" to use, how to wrap, etc. You've said to me,"This is a football." And I'm responding, "Not so fast, coach."

[Doc Highwall]

There is a thread for paper patching at cast boolits. The paper is basically rapped around a soft lead slug acting as a paper jacket allowing a 30:1 to 40:1 to expand reliably at BP velocity's 1200- 1400 fps. This is a oversimplification of the process but I hope you get the idea.

[Woodtroll]

Kind sir, I can hardly be considered a coach of anything, except possibly of confusion! <G>

In the "Bullet Casting" section of this board, on the main forum index, there is a forum at the very bottom entitled "Paper Patching". Reading through there will provide more information than you could possibly want about all the fine points of patching soft lead bullets. Much of it may overwhelm you, but as you probably know by now, our hobby is not nearly as complicated as we make it!

Basically, for smokeless loads, you take a soft lead bullet that is 0.0005-0.001" inch over bore diameter (for your .45-70, the target size of the bullet is probably 0.451"). The paper should be of a thickness so that you end up with a patched bullet at a thousandth or two over groove diameter (0.459-0.460"); some BP shooters insist on high-cotton rag to withstand BP fouling, but I've used typing paper, notebook paper, phonebook pages, etc. with smokeless, and they all worked well as long as the bullet ended up the right size. The paper is precut at more or less a 45 degree angle at each end, forming a parallelogram, and of a length that will wrap the bullet just twice, but not overlap on the ends into a start of a third wrap. The height of the patch should be enough that the patch starts just above the shoulder of the bullet, where the ogive and bearing surface meet, and hangs down about 1/8" or so below the base of the bullet once it is wrapped. The patch is dampened slightly, wrapped onto the bullet, and tucked under neatly at the base. You let it dry, lube the paper lightly with just about any kind of simple lube, and load it into the case at a length that just allows the paper patch to kiss the rifling at the end of the throat.

The advantage to this is that you can drive a soft lead/tin bullet at high velocities, and never lead the bore.

Hopefully this will give you enough to start; maybe others can pitch in with better help. I will be away for a while with a family health situation, but PM me if you like and I will hunt up some links for you if you are interested. I really do think that PP bullets are the way to go on soft-skinned game.

Good luck! Regan

[Bret4207]

"Large soft skinned game" to me means big deer/elk and black bear. A 45/70 launching a WW 350-450 gr boolit over 1600 fps MV should answer given good shot placement. You'll get more expansion hitting heavy muscle and bone, less with a 125 lb lung shot deer.

[JFE]

For the ranges you are looking at it is pretty hard to beat a properly loaded 45/70.
There are many options for those that cast their own - you can tailor a conventional cast bullet (by varying weight, style, alloy & heat treatment), use a HP design or paper patched design.

I've recently been experimenting with what Veral Smith terms his 'Glue on Patch' method in a 348 Win and results so far have been very encouraging. Good accuracy and close to 2400 fps. With this technique you can use a soft alloy and get great expansion without resorting to heat treating etc. There is no reason you couldnt do the same in a 45/70.

However if you must use a jacketed bullet for THIN skinned game, in my experience Speer's 400 gr gives a good account of itself when driven at around 1600-1800 fps. On thick skinned game it didnt work well, but buffalo isnt on your menu. Speer's 350 FN is very stoutly constructed - this one is designed for use in a 458 Mag and rated to 2700 fps. I've sectioned one and they are much more heavily constructed than Speer's 400gr FN. Woodleigh's 400gr FN and Swift should also work well but I have no experience with either.

Joe

[Naphtali]

Apparently, Hawk bullets are created in a similar fashion with Barnes originals. They also apparently use essentially identical materials -- annealed pure copper tubing for jacket and pure lead inserted before forming.

In the 45-70-class of bullets, they have three jacket thicknesses available, .025, .035, and .050 inch. At muzzle velocities of 1800 fps, approximately how much expansion should one expect from 400-grain bullets of these types at 100 yards when shooting .035-inch jackets, with .050-inch jackets?

[Bret4207]

No idea. Like I said, cast works fine.

[Heavy lead]

Swift makes a 350, Barnes makes the 300 grain X-bullet that is as long or longer than most 400 grain bullets. If I were going to use a j-bullet it would be the X IMO. But I have shot a handfull of elk, all of them a 338 partition bullet. If I were to hunt elk or moose I'd use a boolit, probably a WFN design or the plain jane 405 with a pure lead nose. Don't think IMO you could find any j-bullet that would outdo any boolit with a big fat cartridge.

[MtGun44]

Rem 405 JFP over 57gr W748 makes about 1750 in my Marlin Guide Gun.

This bullet is fairly soft but shot thru both shoulders of a wildebeeste and
nicked the sternum of a zebra on a frontal shot for two quick kills and well
expanded but mostly intact bullets. The PH was impressed in both cases
with both penetration and expansion, plus killing two tough animals quickly.
These guys see a LOT of game shot and are not easily impressed, and had
expressed a poor opinion of the .45-70 based on previous experience with
guys using factory 300 gr HP ammo, which is fine for whitetail but does
not penetrate enough to do a good job on bigger and tougher game.

I would not expect the Speer 405 to act any differently and they are not
dual diameter like the Rem 405 so don't work in my 1886 which has essentially
zero leade (throat) and won't chamber a full diam bullet like a 350 Hornady or
the Speer.
I milled a Rem 405 and Speer 405 in half and the jackets look to be identical
thickness, so unless the Speer is some much different jacket alloy, they should expand
about the same and the Rem functions in both my .45-70 lever rifles, so I use it.

If I were shooting stuff that might bite back, I'd pay the bucks for heavy
jacketed custom bullets or use a good cast boolit. I kinda wish I'd used the
excellent RCBS 405 cast on that hunt, but too late now.

Bill

[Buckshot]

.................Ummmmmmmm, a softcast Lee 405gr sized to .452" then patched to .459". Shot at 1600 fps MV from a MAS 36 converted to 45-70. Hit a boar hog at ~ 60 yards just aft of the left foreleg, and it might still be going for all I know. Good eating right up to the hole.

...............Buckshot

[9.3X62AL]

Naphtali--

Have a look at the "Softpoint Bullet Casting" thread started and completed by Bruce B on this board. It is a kinda slow process for creating a lot of boolits, but I've used the Lee 405 grain mould for my 45-70 with "donor bullets" from 100 to 200 grains, and the accuracy was unvaried. (100, 150, 200 grains). I haven't done expansion testing, because I don't think for my uses that a 45 caliber rifle boolit needs much expansion--but I will accept all the expansion I can get. My experimentation was solely to determine what (if any) accuracy variance occurred as the metallurgy percentages varied--none observable.

Tempting fate, I tried the same experiment with the 9.3 x 62 and the Mountain Molds 270 grain flatpoint--donor bullets ranged from 70 grains to 140 grains (70, 100, and 140 grains). Again, no observable accuracy difference could be discerned.

[Naphtali]

Here is a summary of jacketed flat point 45-70-compatible controlled expansion bullets. Among premium bullets, Alaska Bullet Works 405-grain FP and Swift A-Frame 350-grain FP have no detractors among people who have hunted plains game in Africa, Seldang, bison, and other game weighing more than 800 pounds.

Swift's A-Frame 400-grain FP will function safely in 1886s and Marlin 1895s. Mr. Hober informed me that expansion requires extreme top end 45-70 loads. He doesn't recommend loading that hot.

Hawk Precision bullets do not shatter or disintegrate. Rather, .035-inch jacketed 400-grain FP expands too rapidly, reducing penetration. No one has used the .050-inch 400-grain FP, so I cannot report problem solved.

Note: Hawk offers a .035-inch 450-grain FP. They will make this bullet with .050-inch jackets also. In fact, they are running .050-inch jackets next week, were anyone interested. No one has used the 450-gain bullet with either jacket thickness. My thinking is that if velocity would be at least 1950 fps, this bullet would do what need be done. But can you achieve that velocity??

Barnes Original 400-grain FP has an .032-inch jacket. Comment applied to Hawk Precision apply to this bullet.

I've ruled out Woodleighs because of lack of availability.

[Naphtali]

I've concluded the Alaska Bullet Works 405-grain Kodiak bonded core flat nose soft point bullet is the primary big game bullet I want to obtain for 45-70s. Between Remington 405-grain and Speer 400-grain jacketed flat points, which more closely duplicates the trajectory and point of impact of the 405-grain Alaska Bullet Works Kodiak?