Lyman 311041, AA5744 and microgroove barrels

[SlamFire1]

I have now cast about 150 bullets from my new Lyman 311041 mold. The bullets are measuring about 308-309" in diameter. I plan to size (if they will) , Red Rooster lube them, and install a Hornady gas check.

I have not weighed them yet, but they are supposed to be 173 grains. I suspect they will weigh between 165 and 170 grains, based on previous disappointments.

The alloy I mixed up to duplicate Lyman Alloy #2. I used about four pounds lynotype, one pound 50/50 bar solder, and five pounds lead for each ten pound mix.

I tested an ingot with a Lee hardness tester. Per the device I am getting 12.5 BHN. The lyman manual says Lyman Alloy #2 is 15 BHN. So, I am close.

I have lots of AA5744. After shooting cast bullets in the 30-06, 303 Brit, and 45/70 with this powder, I decided this was the alpha and omega of cast bullet powders.

Now, I would like to shoot the 311041 in a 30-30 microgroove Marlin 336.

How fast can I push these bullets? Anyone shot this combination and be able to make any load suggestions?

[Bass Ackward]

I have now cast about 150 bullets from my new Lyman 311041 mold. The bullets are measuring about 308-309" in diameter.

I have lots of AA5744. After shooting cast bullets in the 30-06, 303 Brit, and 45/70 with this powder, I decided this was the alpha and omega of cast bullet powders.

Now, I would like to shoot the 311041 in a 30-30 microgroove Marlin 336. How fast can I push these bullets? Anyone shot this combination and be able to make any load suggestions?


I have some reservations about your diameter to answer how fast you are going to be able to push those in a micro groove. Normally they need a little more diameter or much harder bullets than a taller rifled bore.

As to 5744, the high nitro content powders are great if you have the extra case capacity that requires them for good ignition. If you don't have a case capacity issue though, as with a 30/30, they burn hotter than other powders that may end up working better.

[jlchucker]

I've used the 311041 with AA5744 with very good results out of my microgroove Marlin. Inch groups or less at 50 yards with a receiver sight. No leading. Boolets sized .309. I haven't gotten around to trying any sized .310 yet, but will when I get time. My 100 yard rifle is a Winchester classic rifle with 26 inch barrel that I've owned since 1969. That one shoots even better than the Marlin, and used to do as well at 100 yards when my eyesight allowed. I won't scope my leverguns, but am keeping my bifocaled eyes open for a Savage 340 in 30-30 that I will scope at some point.

[mtgrs737]

I shoot the Lyman 311041 in my Marlin micro groove 30-30 but I size to .310" I have used plain wheel weight alloy but if I cast from 50% weights and 50% linotype I get a little larger boolit that sizes harder. My WW alloy boolits will drop at least .310" from my recent manufactured two cavity mould. I use BAC lube and load 10.5 grs. of Unique powder.

[Maven]

SF1, Before you strive for speed, you'll need to see how accurate that CB is and what diameter you'll need to size it to. My Marlin #336 (Microgroove) did best with CB's sized to .310", although it could tolerate .311". In short, you need to slug the bore, which may tell you that .309" is too small. Btw, although many others have had outstanding results with #311041 in the .30-30Win., I haven't in any .30cal. rifle. If you're open to suggestion, the Saeco #315 and Lyman #311466 are much better performers in both the .30-30 and other .30cal. rifles using AA 5744 and other powders of similar speed.

[Larry Gibson]

Slamfire1

I wouldn't size those bullets of that alloy any smaller than .309". That is a nice BHN for a hunting bullet but for regular shooting a BHN in the 15-18 range would probably be better. Out of my 20" M94 my 311041HP (177 gr) over 23 gr 5744 runs 1936 fps. That is with an alloy of comparable BHN to yours. With a 311291 cast of WWs +2% tin (also 177 gr) over 22gr of 5744 the velocity is 1855 fps. Both of those bullet weights are with the bullets in full dress as Bass would say. Both loads are accurate.

Can't help you with the Marlin Micro-groove barrels as the 2 lever 30-30s I have are Winchesters. The closest I have is a 21" TC Contender barrel but I've not tried the 5744 load in it yet.

Larry Gibson

[SlamFire1]

Larry: Thank you and good data. I looked at Lyman Manual 48. For the microgroove barrel they suggested nothing faster than 1600 fps. That is slow.

I cast about 250 of these bullets, I am curious to know, in the 30-06, if they will shoot as well as the Lyman 311284's that I cast. Those shot very well in a Ruger #1.

I have been shooting these in 100 yard off hand practice on a gong target. Last I used the 311284, the bullet landed just where the trigger broke.

I used the Lee tester today on a defective bullet. The indentation was closer to 14.5. I wonder about this tester and whether it is accurate. I cannot scratch one of my bullets with a finger nail. They are hard!

I plan to size them to 310". I don't have a sizer die smaller than that. I am using a cheap harbor freight caliber, probably not the most accurate. I might have to dig out my Mitutoyo micrometer for measurement.

http://www.mitutoyo.com/Images/002/252/293-832.jpg

[Larry Gibson]

Slamfire1

Though I prefer the Winchester I have worked with a couple friends who have Marlins with Micro-groove barrels. The 411041 was always a shooter in them and at 1800-1900 fps to boot, alibiet my mould drops them at .311". My HP 311041 casts heavy because I shortened the HP stem to 1/3 the length of the nose. Thus I get better expansion without the expansion petals breaking off in deer size game. Anyways the 411041 is one of the most accurate moulds in all my .30 cals including numerous '06s. It is always my "go to" cast .30 cal for hunting. It should do as well in your '06.

Keep us posted on your progress.

Larry Gibson

[Jon K]

Slamfire1,

Like everyone said slug the bore.

I have run the 311041 in 2 Wnchesters 94 & 64, both guns liked .309. I gave some of these to 2 guys to try in Marlins about 1964-1967 mfg. 1 slugs .309 groove at the breech, and the other .310. Well the one @.309 just loved the .309 boolits, and the other wouldn't shoot, so I sized some .310, .311 & .312. The gun wouldn't shoot anything but the .312(.002 over the groove dia). Had to run the mould hot(825+) to get it to drop .312 boolits.

5744 works good, but is no speed demon. Varget (28gr) will go 2000fps with 311041 with good accuracy.

FYI, I couldn't get Hornady GC to fit the shank(too small) Gator checks fit perfect.

Have Fun Shooting,
Jon

[SlamFire1]

Well I did not slug the barrel. All I did was size the bullets with a 310 sizer, measure them with a decent micrometer, and they measured 0.3095”. I used Red Rooster bullet lube and hornady gas checks, a Lee univeral neck sizer, and a Dillon taper crimp die. Just used the taper crimp die to remove the belling.

I first shot 170 grain Sierra Round nose over the chronograph to check on velocity. All groups are at 100 yards. This is not the only five group I shot with this load, both groups showed the same pattern of vertical stringing. I combined the velocity data later. The rifle is scoped with a Luepold, perhaps the stringing is due to me, or the stringing is because this rifle has all sorts of things hanging off the barrel.

The Lyman manual gives advice to use the lower powder charge in Marlin Microgroove barrels. That charge is 18.0 grains of AA5744. I went below that to see what happens. The first shot was incredibly low at 100 yards. I had to crank up 15 MOA on the scope to place the other nine shots in a 3.4 inch group. Velocity was only 1400 fps. The recommended load was just at what the Lyman manual predicted, 1600 fps. I had a wild first shot, way off to the left. I adjusted and the next wild shot was way to the right. I put the windage back at zero and shot the eight shot group below. I think this is the best group of the day, but not by much.

Just one grain more, 19.0 grains of AA5744, and 88 fps more, and I got a blown group. Every increase in powder just created larger blown groups. The chronograph data for 20.0 grs is included for reference. The other loads I created, I am going to disassemble them and re use the bullets.

I did not see any keyholing on the target, just shot gun sized groups. I did not see any leading in the barrel. I finished the day by shooting more 170 Sierra loads.

I read in an old casting book, advice that says jacketed bullet fouling destorys the barrel accuracy with lead bullets. I don't know if to believe this as I shoot hundreds of lead bullets through my revolvers, than when I finish, I shoot jacketed. To scrub the lead out.

The BHN of my bullets were as noted above, not too hard, not too soft.

I think I am going to have to be happy with 1600 fps in this rifle. If you notice, AA5744 gives decent Standard Deviations and Extreme Spreads. I think this is a good powder to use in my rifle.


Marlin M336 microgroove barrel,

170 gr Sierra RN 29.4 grs H322 R-P cases WLR


28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F

Ave Vel = 2132
Std Dev = 15
ES = 50
High = 2154
Low = 2104
N = 10


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/MarlinwithJHP.jpg


173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy
16.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-R cases trimmed 2.020"

28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F

Ave Vel = 1438
Std Dev = 17
ES = 35
High = 1444
Low = 1409
N = 10

Nine shot group 2.7" X 3.4" Elevation plus 15 MOA from 170 Sierra

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/160grsAA5744Marlin336.jpg




173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy
18.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020"

28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F

Ave Vel = 1603
Std Dev = 9
ES = 33
High = 1620
Low = 1587
N = 10

two wild shots, then eight shot group in middle. 3" X 2.3" best group


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/180grsAA5744Marlin336.jpg




173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy
19.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020"
28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F

Ave Vel = 1688
Std Dev = 17
ES = 66
High = 1732
Low = 1666
N = 17

Blown group, inconsistent pattern


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v479/SlamFire/Targets/190grsAA5744Marlin336.jpg



173 gr 311041 GC sized .310 Lyman #2 alloy
20.0 grs AA5744 CCI200 OAL 2.550 R-P cases trimmed 2.020"

28 Sept 2008 T = 70 °F

Ave Vel = 1719
Std Dev = 16
ES = 46
High = 1742
Low = 1696
N = 10

Blown huge group

[Bass Ackward]

What you are going to run across one day is that Standard deviation and ES can have little to do with cast accuracy.

You have many options available but the two most common are to harden your bullet, or go to a slower powder if you want to increase velocity before squirrely things happen.

I know that it doesn't follow most advice, but a full case of 4831 will often be able to produce about 1900 fps with softer bullets. This accomodates weak lubes which I believe you are using.

[w30wcf]

SlamFire1,
Lots of good advice from the pards. Thank you for the range report. I have a 336A Marlin made in 1977 with a micro-groove barrel. It has a .308" groove diameter and a .3105" diameter throat. I find that I get my best results with .310" bullets.

The most 5744 I have used in the .30-30 was 18 grs. and that was behind a 190 gr. cast bullet in an alloy similar to yours. Velocity ran around 1,700 f.p.s. and groups were in the 1 1/2" - 2" range at 100 yards.

The 311041 from my mold in the same alloy weighs 180 grs. w/ g.c. Slower burning H414 will push that bullet to 2,160 f.p.s. with the same degree of accuracy.:mrgreen:

w30wcf

[SlamFire1]

This accomodates weak lubes which I believe you are using.

I do not understand this. What are the characteristics of a weak lube?

The Red Rooster lube I used, I found no leading, and at the crown of the muzzle, I had a lubricant star. Whenever I have had that in revolvers, I don't have leading problems and accuracy has been fine. These longer barrels are a new game to me.



The 311041 from my mold in the same alloy weighs 180 grs. w/ g.c. Slower burning H414 will push that bullet to 2,160 f.p.s. with the same degree of accuracy


I weighed my 311041's before putting a gas check on, and they were just at 173 grains. Now after the gas check and lube, I don't know the weight.

I might try some WC852, that I purchased off Jeff Bartlett at GIBrass.com. This is a slow burning powder, and should fill a small case like the 30-30.

I tried 40.0 grains WC852 with a 314299 bullet in the 303 Brit. I got 1900 fps, but the group was also blown. Might be too fast for a No 4 Mk 2.

[Bass Ackward]

I do not understand this. What are the characteristics of a weak lube?

The Red Rooster lube I used, I found no leading, and at the crown of the muzzle, I had a lubricant star. Whenever I have had that in revolvers, I don't have leading problems and accuracy has been fine. These longer barrels are a new game to me.


First off maybe weak was not an appropriate word. Every lube is functional, meaning that it prevents leading between a certain pressure range with a certain hardness. Within that range, a smaller range exists where you will have some level of accuracy. Some lubes have the accuracy point at the low end of that functional range and some lubes work right on the top.

Rooster was always a low end lube for me and it had a narrower application range than I liked. They do make a rifle lube for higher pressures, but I always found that you needed a harder bullet at the same pressure level using it.

Since I like to operate on the softer end of the hardness scale, I always found a stronger lube to perform better with my soft slugs. Make sense?

[SlamFire1]

First off maybe weak was not an appropriate word. Every lube is functional, meaning that it prevents leading between a certain pressure range with a certain hardness. Within that range, a smaller range exists where you will have some level of accuracy. Some lubes have the accuracy point at the low end of that functional range and some lubes work right on the top.

Rooster was always a low end lube for me and it had a narrower application range than I liked. They do make a rifle lube for higher pressures, but I always found that you needed a harder bullet at the same pressure level using it.

Since I like to operate on the softer end of the hardness scale, I always found a stronger lube to perform better with my soft slugs. Make sense?


Thanks for the reply. Oh, my God, I am going to have to experiment with different lubes?

This is turning into a lot more work than I thought.

[fatelvis]

Every lube is functional, meaning that it prevents leading between a certain pressure range with a certain hardness. Within that range, a smaller range exists where you will have some level of accuracy. Some lubes have the accuracy point at the low end of that functional range and some lubes work right on the top.


Where does Speedgreen work best on that scale, at higher or lower pressure?

[Bass Ackward]

Where does Speedgreen work best on that scale, at higher or lower pressure?


I have not shot SpeedGreen under ever senario to give you a complete answer. But the inventor says that he is able to operate it at all load levels. While I believe him, what I have found is that we tend to learn how to use what's available to us.

But pressure isn't the only variable. So is bullet mass at pressure. And then there is temperature's effect on everything (with the key to everything with cast) in " YOUR " bore.

So if two guys answered you on SpeedGreen, you might get two opposite answers. Speedgreen is a slipperier lube with good viscosity that can be diluted down for lower pressures. If you know how to make that work, you'll love it. Undiluted, I'd say it works better at high pressures myself.

[Larry Gibson]

SlamFire1

Your results are indicative that the bullet is too small. I've played with a few Marlin MicrGroove 30-30s over the years as mentioned and invariably a .311 bullet gave the best accuracy. I never chronographed them (that's why I gave info from my M94s) though as I most often used a "standard" load of 4895 with the 311041 bullet. You don't need to experiment with a different lube as that's not the problem. Also I disagree with Bass, SD and ES of correct proportion to each other are important to accuracy, even with cast bullets. I'll suggest you try a bullet of .311 size or perhaps larger. You might try "beagling" that mould or trying a different mould. Witha proper sized bullet i also would try a medium burning powder like 4895 or 748 along with 18-21 gr of the 5744 powder you're using.

The verticle stringing may be how you are resting the fore arm on the rest. The fore arm only and no metal should be on the rest. Another cause is all of the wood/metal hanging off the barrel and how they are mated. The length of the magazine spring and the pressure it excerts also affects vertical stringing. Your group with the 170 Sierra bullet is indicating a problem. I'd try to fix that before giving up on cast. You should be able to equal jacketed bullet accuracy with a cast bullet in the 1800-1950 fps range with your Marlin 30-30.

Larry Gibson.