View Full Version : Need help with a Nagant pistol.
11-22-2005, 04:26 PM
I got my C&R lic. and bought a Nagant pistol the next day, bought two boxs of Focchi ammo for the boxer cases.
The rush passed and I woke up to the fact I spent $60 for 100 rounds of ammo. for a $100 revolver! :veryconfu
Who makes good dies and bullets for it? Any good links?
I have down this road before with the Mauser C-96 broomhandle! :wink:
Thank the shooting Gods for Deputy Al he got me on the right track.
Been recovering slowly ,three medical problems hit at once!
I'm much better now :-)
Thanks for any help,
11-22-2005, 05:06 PM
Hey, Broomer--welcome aboard! Thanks for the kind words, too.
The Nagant is a work in progress for me. I'm using Starline brass and a couple different arrangements of die sets--30 Carbine sizer and 32-20 expander and seater dies. This differs greatly from the Lee die set regimen, and early on I noted a VERY close dimensional resemblance between the 30 Carbine and the 7.62 x 38R casings.
Unlike just about every revolver in existence--the Nagant's inside case mouth at the time of firing sets the throat diameter for you. There may be a little neck reaming in my casings' future, to get them to match or approach the barrel's groove diameter. Using .310" Lee 100 grain RN's and 3.0 grains of WW-231, seating the boolits even with the case mouth--I got the revolver hitting steel impact targets consistently at 35 yards, albeit with some Vladivostok windage (way east). The triggers are terrible in single action and well-nigh impossible in D/A.
11-22-2005, 07:18 PM
Hi Deputy Al,
Am I better off buying carbine dies over the Lee Nagant dies or you just had the carbine dies around and they are close enough for govt. work?
No problems with the cases bulging/sticking?
I see you are using .310 bullets are they a better choice in your mind over 308 lead bullets?
I know some people use 32 S&W longs and have had good luck with them.
Please fill this empty head with smarts! :lovebooli
I hope all the 38 S&W cases are serving you well.
Be well & safe,
broom -RETIRED and loving it!
PS Happy Thankgiving to ALL!
11-22-2005, 08:48 PM
I'm using the .310" sizing because it allows about .002" of boolit release when the big light hits the boolit base, the boolit stays put after seating in the expanded case, and the loaded rounds chamber without a hitch in my revolver. There was no leading after 100 rounds, either.
I already had the 30 Carbine and 32-20 dies on hand, and the regimen given with the Lee Die Set as related by board members sounded to me like extracting teeth by going in through the anal vent. Doing a little research with the 30 Carbine die, "Cartridges of the World", and the Starline cases, it seemed like Winchester didn't just use the 32 WSL or 32-20 as precursors--the 30 Carbine is incredibly close to be coincidental. The Starline cases needed one pass through the 30 Carbine sizer die to get the proper taper, and use of the RCBS #1 shellholder with the 30 Carbine sizer did just fine--the "reformed" Starline cases seated fully in the cylinder. New cases are straight-walled, and won't go far into the charge holes. My loads were pretty mild, so extraction after firing was easy--more often than not, the cases fell free. The second trip through the sizing die was a lot easier than the first "reforming" trip, too.
Yes, those 38 S&W's are doing fine duty in both the old Webley and a newer (to me) S&W M&P I got recently. Don't ask me to explain my attraction to these old warhorses--they're just cool.
11-22-2005, 10:05 PM
I have tried using 32 longs in mine with mixed success. Usually the cases split or bulge but not evenly. I use 32-20 cases mainly and have a set of lee and rcbs dies. I picked up a 32 ACP cylinder which fortunately works fine in both my pistols. Reloading 32 ACP's isn't for everybody however. I made an adapter for my Lee dies that puts the proper crimp on the nose of the 7.62 Nagant cases that I have. Mark
11-23-2005, 11:06 AM
Broomhandle: glad you are doing good and enjoying life- now don't let this little Ruski wheel gun go and mess that up! ha-ha If you buy the Lee dies understand that they were made to load 32/20 brass to be used in the 7.62X38r, for sizing they will have to be backed off quite a ways- I'm using the .135 spacer from rcbs38/357 dies. If you set them up to resize in the normal fashion they will overwork the brass a bunch, case failures will start in as few as 2 firings. I'm shooting lee 311-100-2r, store bought Hornady .314" 90grHBWC, starline brass, have tried Herco, Wsuperfield, and AA#2. Bullets are sized large to take up windage in chambers, no actual throat in cylinders as casings extend to end of cyl. The front sight had to be drifted on mine to adjust windage and the 100 grainers at around 850 fps, as well as the 90 grs at 1050, shoot to point of aim, recoil is minimal to say the least.Single pull trigger is usable, OMG that double action mode is from hell. Leading is nonexistant with the above loads, but all boolits are at least a couple thou. over groove.
I carried this rev with me a couple weeks ago, determined to fill an antlerless deer tag. I had set a 40 yd window, that is if I couldn't get within forty yards where I felt sure I could get for sure lung shot, I would use a muzzleloader, after about 15 minutes of hide and seek with a MD doe, I put the Nagant in my jacket pocket and used the ML.
Another piece of history that deserves to be takin out for a walk and talk every now and again- enjoy!
12-02-2005, 12:55 PM
Thanks for the reply. hard copied and installed in a folder.
I have been talking to Deptuty Al about the Nagant.
I have picked up a set of RCBS 32 S&W long dies to crimp & size cases.
I hope to get a set of M-1 carbine dies at the show next week,we shot 1-2 cyls. of hi dollar Focchi ammo and it was right on point of aim.
Can't figure out why I like old weird looking pistols. [smilie=b:
Please post with more good loads and infomation.
Be safe &well,
12-05-2005, 01:33 PM
broom; I use the Lee 311-100-2R with 9/1 alloy(12BHN) run thru .313 sizer, Starline brass, oem sp primer
Herco 3.3 grs to4.0 grs (776 fps-972fps)
AA#2 2.5-3.0 grs(507-835fps)
I have some loads with sr4756, and unique but haven't gotten out to try them.
12-09-2005, 01:41 PM
Hi S Wheeler,
Thanks for the load infomation.
12-09-2005, 01:49 PM
I saw a note here someplace.(cannot find it now)
The note mentioned that we can use .223 cases reformed and trimmed to size for the Nagant.
I tried a few and discovered that the cases will reform- BUT- I wound up with a step at the base of the case that is not reformed. With the step on the case it will not fit in the chamber.
Have any of you made and shot 223 cases in the Nagant.
It looks like if I remove the step I will weaken the case to a DANGER level.
Thanks for any help,
12-09-2005, 05:22 PM
Howdy Broomhandle: I too saw an article on the internet awhile back about using the .223 brass for the nagant revolver...... unfortunately I suffer from CRS and can't for the life of me remember where I saw the info. I've tried the 32 S&W long route.... most of the cases split length ways. I've read where some guys wrap some tape around the case before chambering to prevent this.....not my cup of tea. The ammo around here costs 35.00 a box of 50 for the Fiochi. I'm to cheap to pay that and I also read that the .32 auto cylinders worked but the ammo did not shoot accurately out of the Nagant. So for now it has been setting in my safe sadly unused for the most part. 8mmshooter
12-09-2005, 10:20 PM
That was me, a couple of years ago. I didn't have a .223 or a .30 Carbine sizing die, but I had a bucket-full of .223 empties; I just bored a hole in a block of steel the size I wanted and drove the .223 cases in right to the rim, and punched them back out like the old Ideal hand sizing dies - this was all back around 1970; I think we used the Speer HJ .30 "plinkers". I forget the rest, except that on the G.I. model Nagant the DA pull went about 20 lbs, and the SA about 8 - 10. Tha SA-only Offficer's Model was only a little bit better, and I soon got rid of both.
12-10-2005, 01:50 PM
I made a few .223 cases up and have a bump about .030 in dia.at the base.
I understand the hole thru a plate idea to finish up the case.
But,The case has to be worked very badly doing this operation.
Will the primer hole be crushed when I push them thru.
What method do you use to remove the extra material pushed to the end of the case.
I'm guessing a belt sander or lathe/drill press?
Thanks for any help,
12-10-2005, 06:49 PM
That was a L - O - N - G time ago and I don't remember the details. I think I just bored an 0.357" or so hole (letter "T" or 23/64" drill) into the end of a 3" billet of 1" drill rod in the shop lathe, put a little radius on the entry, and squeezed the cases in in a big vise, stopping when the front of the rim came flush with the face of the die. The extra metal ironed itself into the extractor slot and the primer pocket didn't seem to be affected enough to feel. Pressed the case back out with a 1/4" or so piece of drill rod (we had cut the necks back of the shoulder) in the vise, with a 3/4" nut against the base to clear the case as it came back out. Crude, but it worked good enough to play with the two Nagants we had. We only made a dozen or two, enough to convince us that (a) yes, you could make them shoot; and (b) they weren't worth the trouble. Might have felt differently about it if we had had today's cases and dies. but with those heavy triggers and tiny grips, they really weren't all that much fun, so we moved on the the S&W five-shot K-41/K-44 project - another story.
PS "broomhandle", eh? You must like those Mauser c-96's. I prefer the German nickname: "Kuhfusspistole" = "Cow's-hoof pistol". But they shoot a heckuva lot better than they look!
12-19-2005, 07:35 PM
Thanks for reply I'm sorry I must have missed it before.
Yes ,I like the C-96 broomhandle. [smilie=w:
Deputy Al was a big help when I started reloading for it.He sent a number of loads and bullet combos.
I have three now a 1915 WW1 model a 1925 Bolo (short barrel) & a 1937 made in the last production run .
I'm trying to set up a deal for two shot out guns that I will have rechambered for 9mm.
I never saw the C-96 refered to as the cowfoot pistol. I have to go back and copy your message & post it on the C-96 board.
I will try a few 223 cases just for fun! [smilie=s: Think I will section one for my own intrest.
Be well & safe,
12-27-2005, 06:37 PM
Anybody tried the Lee "Soup Can" boolits in the Nagant? I've got one of those 6-hole moulds for it.
Thanks for the tip on the .30 Carbine dies and Starline brass!
What happens if you seat a boolit flush with the end of the case? If it'll chamber in the cylinder, will it properly go into the throat of the barrel on full cock?
12-27-2005, 06:39 PM
Speaking of .30 Carbine, has anyone tried those cases in the Nagant? What do you need a rim for, you're going to punch the empties out with a rod, right?
12-30-2005, 08:07 PM
Never mind the .30 Carbine cases, they're shorter than .32-20 ones. Otherwise pretty similar in dimensions. I think the .30 Carbine is just the old .32 Winchester Self Loading with the semirimless rim turned down to a fully rimless head.
We fired my boy's new 1943 Nagant this afternoon, with the Russian target ammo SOG's selling. Man, is that wimpy stuff! It reminded me of the cap pistols I used to shoot as a kid. Sounded and smelled like them.
Speaking of which, these cartridges aren't loaded with smokeless powder! It COULD be a very small charge of black powder, but I suspect it's the old semismokeless powder that used to be popular for .22 target cartridges up into the mid '50s in the U.S. A very tiny amount of powder can be heard shaking inside these cartridges, and I'll bet it's not much over 2 grains, like a .22 LR. The small amount of gas emitted at the muzzle is a dirty dark gray smoke, not quite as dense as I'm used to seeing with black powder (but then, I've never fired such a small charge of it.) Sometimes it looked almost like black smoke, not nearly as white as black powder or Pyrodex normally make. It has a strong sulfurous odor. The residue in the barrel looks like what black powder or Pyrodex leaves, a rather heavy grayish smut, and a soapy patch gets lots of black stuff out. The case mouths are really blackened. These cartridges are headstamped 1972. They have a lead wadcutter bullet seated down in the case. Bet the Russkies had some semismokeless powder left around.
That gives me another idea for loading. A full case of Pyrodex. If you're used to cleaning corrosive primer residue out of guns shortly after shooting, Pyrodex is no worse to deal with. I'd sure prefer to use the full length cases instead of the short .32-20 or .30 Carbine, if for no other reason than to use the interesting, unique gas seal feature of the revolver. I'll bet a Lee 113 gr. ashcan boolit seated with the nose flush with the end of the case, atop a moderately compressed load of Pyrodex, would make a good shooting round. A wadcutter intended for a .32 S&W Long, or one of the 100 grain .32-20 boolits should work well, too.
When the Nagant revolver was accepted in 1895 and put into production in 1900, the Russians were still using blackpowder. They didn't start using smokeless in the big 7.62x54R until 1908!
So Starline's got the full length brass, Boxer primed? I just may have to get some of that and a .30 Carbine die set. I can see being a lot more successful loading for this than the Cz52, because I can keep track of the Nagant brass!
12-31-2005, 10:12 AM
I have re-stuffed my fired Nagant brass with 25 each of 4 different boolit weights, just for the hell of it. I also drifted the front sight a bit right to correct the windage issue the revolver presented in earlier firings. These revolvers are conspicuous by their absence at Camp Perry.....must be the barrel length, eh?
Ricochet--one solution for the vigorous ejection of the CZ-52........I rigged up a PVC irrigation pipe frame about 6' tall x 4' wide, and filled the frame opening with loosely-fitted nylon window screen material. This was back in the days of the HK-91, which sent two projectiles at once--one very accurately where the sights looked, and another at about 45* northeast of the muzzle direction.
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