Expansion and penetration?

[Bluerock2000]

I started another long winded thread (on my part) that ended up to this question: What do you think of this design, but hollow point converted, cast at around 8-10 bhn and shot at 1000 fps in a 1:20 16" barrell single shot rifle?

213899

[JSnover]

I like that big fat, flat-nose for breaking bone. If it was my mold and I wanted to HP it, I might keep the cavity shallow to keep it from over-expanding; breaking up or giving up some penetration for the mushroom. What do you plan to shoot?

[Outpost75]

At subsonic velocity up to about 1450 fps you don't need the GC and you can save lots of money by not bothering with them.

What cartridge case are you loading this in .444 or?

[Bluerock2000]

I like that big fat, flat-nose for breaking bone. If it was my mold and I wanted to HP it, I might keep the cavity shallow to keep it from over-expanding; breaking up or giving up some penetration for the mushroom. What do you plan to shoot?

Texas Whitetail, which aren’t very big. And possibly hogs from time to time.

[Bluerock2000]

At subsonic velocity up to about 1450 fps you don't need the GC and you can save lots of money by not bothering with them.

What cartridge case are you loading this in .444 or?

44 mag

[Outpost75]

44 mag

With bullet that heavy, how are you rethroating the barrel, so that bullet intrusion into the powder space is not robbing you of powder capacity and spiking pressure from the increased load density? How are you determining loads, you running QL?

[nicholst55]

Just my personal opinion, but you don't need a bullet that heavy for Texas whitetails, and probably not even for hogs. It's your choice, of course, but I think I'd drop that bullet down to about 300-315 grains, and lose the gas check. That will give you more powder capacity, especially if you want to use it for dual duty in a revolver.

One positive note - using a bullet that long and heavy would give you a good excuse to have Hamilton Bowen build you a long-cylinder Long Hunter conversion on a Super Blackhawk!

http://bowenclassicarms.com/catalog/ruger_single_action_basic_caliber_conversions.html

[mdi]

Looks like a Ranch Dog design, with a hollow point...

[Outpost75]

FWIW I find that Accurate's 43-230G double-crimp-groove design works just dandy in both revolver and rifle, in either .44 Special, .44-40 or .44 Magnum and it's a great one size fits all .44 bullet. Seat out and crimp in the rear crimp groove in .44 Special or in Ruger .44 Magnums having longer cylinders, to provide added powder capacity. Crimp in the front groove to maintain SAAMI overall length for feeding in lever actions.

Deer don't seem embarrassed to be shot with a lighter bullet. Tom at Accurate can make the base band wider to adjust weight for a heavier bullet if you prefer, but I have not found any lack of penetration with this one and the 230-grain bullet has a flatter trajectory than heavier ones at subsonic velocity.

213998

.44-40 Load___________Ruger 5-1/2"_____Ruger 7-1/2"____H&R 19.5"Backpack Bunny Gun”

43-230G 1:30Sn/Pb 7.2 BE__997, 10 Sd________1052, 9 Sd_____1199, 6 Sd_+P, modern guns only 1.60" OAL

.44 Mag. Load__________Ruger 5-1/2"______Ruger 7-1/2"___Marlin 20”__Remarks

43-230G 1:30Sn/Pb 7.2BE___978, 18Sd________1044, 21Sd_____1178, 7Sd_1.59” OAL cr.top groove

43-230G 1:30Sn/Pb 24.5RL7_1022, 18Sd_______1151, 21Sd_____1432, 26Sd__1.59”OAL

[Bluerock2000]

With bullet that heavy, how are you rethroating the barrel, so that bullet intrusion into the powder space is not robbing you of powder capacity and spiking pressure from the increased load density? How are you determining loads, you running QL?

Since it is a single shot rifle, I am not crimping them and thus can seat the bullet further out of the case if needed. I have plenty of chamber length. However, I have been loading with Titegroup, which is a very dense powder. No chance of a compressed load, but certainly have to be vigilant when reloading not to double charge. Hodgdon has loads for a 355 LFN, which doesn't seat as far in the case as this boolit if this boolit is seated to the crimp groove.

[Bluerock2000]

Just my personal opinion, but you don't need a bullet that heavy for Texas whitetails, and probably not even for hogs. It's your choice, of course, but I think I'd drop that bullet down to about 300-315 grains, and lose the gas check. That will give you more powder capacity, especially if you want to use it for dual duty in a revolver.

One positive note - using a bullet that long and heavy would give you a good excuse to have Hamilton Bowen build you a long-cylinder Long Hunter conversion on a Super Blackhawk!

http://bowenclassicarms.com/catalog/ruger_single_action_basic_caliber_conversions.html

Haha. Boy that's all I need, another project! I understand your point on the weight, but since recoil is insignificant regardless of boolit weight, and trajectory is set because velocity is, my thought is the heaviest projectile I can load that will shoot accurately in case I need the additional penetration. It's not going to break my heart if this boolit expands readily and plows through deer and pigs.

[jmort]

"... (no) GC and you can save lots of money by not bothering with them."

You might save some time but how do you save "lots of money????"
A gas check will never hurt, possibly/probably help, but never cost "lots of money." Time yes, money, no.
With a meplat that wide, why go with a hollow-point??? Lead Bullets Technology

[Bluerock2000]

"... (no) GC and you can save lots of money by not bothering with them."

You might save some time but how do you save "lots of money????"
A gas check will never hurt, possibly/probably help, but never cost "lots of money." Time yes, money, no.
With a meplat that wide, why go with a hollow-point??? Lead Bullets Technology

My reasoning for the HP is this: With that heavy of a boolit I'm going to get a pass-thru on deer regardless of FN or HP, so why not create a larger wound channel. By doubling the diameter of the boolit via expansion, surface area, and thus tissue damage, increases by over 400%. I'm likely splitting hairs, but I can't seem the harm in making it a HP. But that's why I posted, to get input on what I'm not considering. And I agree on the GC. At pennies apiece, they can't hurt and could possibly help. Especially as I'm a novice caster.

[Bluerock2000]

Looks like a Ranch Dog design, with a hollow point...

I had not heard of them until your post. Too bad they're out of business, because that is exactly what that design is. Apparently NOE is making some of their molds, but not that one. And this design is from the Accurate Mold website. He's been very helpful and, from what I can tell and have read, makes a great mold.

[mdi]

http://noebulletmolds.com/NV/index.php?cPath=71_81&osCsid=114tmdjs9i2equ9sgh1gila0c7 NOE has some of RD's designs...

[Bigslug]

My reasoning for the HP is this: With that heavy of a boolit I'm going to get a pass-thru on deer regardless of FN or HP, so why not create a larger wound channel. . .

There's a couple of ways you can play that.

Unless you're looking a running a suppressor, I would decrease the weight (250-275 is plenty) and increase the speed, thus improving trajectory. That accomplished, you can run a harder alloy with an aggressive meplat and not have to fuss with the extra "joys" of casting a hollowpoint design, using your additional speed to swap expansion for a bit of "bow wave" displacement. The thing I like about this approach is that it whittles down some variables - you don't have to sweat amount of expansion as changed by impact speed, which is changed by distance.

Gas checks. . .Useful for higher velocities in general and at higher velocities with softer alloys in particular. Also useful if you aren't 100% certain of your bullet-to-bore fit. My own preference is to avoid fiddling with them whenever practical - nothing within my handgun recoil tolerance range really requires them. A subsonic load certainly does not, but a balls-to-the-wall load in a rifle might. That said, I've got a well-fitted plain base, hard alloy .32 coming quite happily out of a Martini Cadet at 1600 fps using powders that would be right at home in a .44 with no leading and good 100 yard accuracy. Checks don't hurt, but in "borderland" rounds like the .44, I'd rather front-load the work on bullet fit and save time on the back not needing to install them. I would save them for more extreme applications in that caliber.

[Bluerock2000]

Insightful response and thank you. I actually am running this through a suppressor, hence the velocity limitation. That’s why I’m after such a heavy boolit. With regard to the GC, I understand and agree with your reasoning. But I won’t be shooting a ton of these, mainly used just for hunting. I figure for a few extra cents they can’t hurt. On the .275’s I’m loading now, they actually help keep the soft boolit from being swaged down by the case. I’ve slugged my bore and it measured .431. I’m having the mold built to .432. I’m also having the lube grooves removed as I’ll be powder coating. I placed the order for the mold last night. Once I receive it I’ll send it off for hollow point modification, so I’ve got a few weeks to figure out what diameter/depth/style of HP.

[rking22]

A question from one with no personal experience with suppressors. A very good friend who shoots several rifles with them is terrified to put a gas check thru it. Is there any validity to that concern, baffle strike if the check were to come off in a chamber? Have thought of setting up something like you have but it's gonna shoot cast or I don't need it. I understand the check is unneeded at 1050 but I also understand the degree to have it jic.

[fredj338]

If you are casting that soft, you want a shallow cup point for best support of the hollow point as it expands.

[Bluerock2000]

A question from one with no personal experience with suppressors. A very good friend who shoots several rifles with them is terrified to put a gas check thru it. Is there any validity to that concern, baffle strike if the check were to come off in a chamber? Have thought of setting up something like you have but it's gonna shoot cast or I don't need it. I understand the check is unneeded at 1050 but I also understand the degree to have it jic.

I don’t have any experience with shooting casts through one either as everyone I know personally uses jacketed through them. I had planned to install the GC prior to powder coating to eliminate this possibility, but maybe I’m not giving this risk due consideration. The possible benefits gained from the GC certainly don’t outweigh the risk of a ruined suppressor, small as the risk may be. I’ll research this further. May need to go with a PB after all.

[Bluerock2000]

If you are casting that soft, you want a shallow cup point for best support of the hollow point as it expands.

I started looking into this last night and is the next question I have to answer. HP depth and diameter. Bullet hardness obviously affects this, but assuming BHN 10, what are your thoughts on HP dimensions?

[Outpost75]

I had Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com do a cup point which I use at low velocity in the .45 Colt, .45 Schofield and .455 Webley.

I cast my bullets using 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, 9 BHN. Velocity is about 700 fps.

Cavity is a full radius hemispherical cup point 0.7 of meplat diameter, so that depth is half of cavity diameter.

214152

[Bluerock2000]

I had Erik at www.hollowpointmold.com do a cup point which I use at low velocity in the .45 Colt, .45 Schofield and .455 Webley.

I cast my bullets using 1:30 tin-lead from Roto Metals, 9 BHN. Velocity is about 700 fps.

Cavity is a full radius hemispherical cup point 0.7 of meplat diameter, so that depth is half of cavity diameter.t

214152

Great information and impressive bullet. That is who I have been talking with and plan on doing the work. If I mimicked that Design, relative to my caliber, is it as simple as casting the boolit a little harder (using tin not Antimony)to account for the increase in velocity?

[Outpost75]

Great information and impressive bullet. That is who I have been talking with and plan on doing the work. If I mimicked that Design, relative to my caliber, is it as simple as casting the boolit a little harder (using tin not Antimony)to account for the increase in velocity?

Yes, my work has mostly been in black powder handguns, but I use the loads in rifles also.

Crude swag which I have found agrees with experience is that you want BHN ~ velocity/100 so

For very low velocity under 800 fps you want 1:40 or 1:30 tin-lead 8-9 BHN

At 1000 fps your 10 BHN will be fine

At 1200 fps and above 12 BHN works

At 1400 fps and above wheelweights + 2% tin, about 13.5 BHN is fine

Not sure how this translates to higher velocities, but it works in the .44 Magnum, .44-40 and .45 Colt with traditional style flatnosed bullets of normal weight for the caliber, firing full-charge black powder loads and smokeless loads at full charge BP velocity, 700-1000 fps in revolvers and 1200-1450 fps in rifles.

[vzerone]

I'm shooting a 10mm in both a Glock longslide and 1911 longslide using an alloy about same as Outpost75. I'm running them at about 1100 fps. The bullet is a LEE 175 TC bullet, but with the soft alloy I'm using they run 180. I run them through my swage with a hollowpoint pin of the pent configuration and they are free checked with soda can aluminum check before swaging. The free check insures absolutely no leading at these velocities with this soft an alloy. Some I push faster along with faster 357 bullets and 9mm made the same way. The 9mm are from a Mihec hollow point mold. The hollow point on those is the round cone type. These were fired into really wet newspaper.

214162 214163 214164

[Bluerock2000]

Yes, my work has mostly been in black powder handguns, but I use the loads in rifles also.

Crude swag which I have found agrees with experience is that you want BHN ~ velocity/100 so

For very low velocity under 800 fps you want 1:40 or 1:30 tin-lead 8-9 BHN

At 1000 fps your 10 BHN will be fine

At 1200 fps and above 12 BHN works

At 1400 fps and above wheelweights + 2% tin, about 13.5 BHN is fine

Not sure how this translates to higher velocities, but it works in the .44 Magnum, .44-40 and .45 Colt with traditional style flatnosed bullets of normal weight for the caliber, firing full-charge black powder loads and smokeless loads at full charge BP velocity, 700-1000 fps in revolvers and 1200-1450 fps in rifles.

Much appreciated. Sounds like I’m on the right track.

[Bluerock2000]

I'm shooting a 10mm in both a Glock longslide and 1911 longslide using an alloy about same as Outpost75. I'm running them at about 1100 fps. The bullet is a LEE 175 TC bullet, but with the soft alloy I'm using they run 180. I run them through my swage with a hollowpoint pin of the pent configuration and they are free checked with soda can aluminum check before swaging. The free check insures absolutely no leading at these velocities with this soft an alloy. Some I push faster along with faster 357 bullets and 9mm made the same way. The 9mm are from a Mihec hollow point mold. The hollow point on those is the round cone type. These were fired into really wet newspaper.

214162 214163 214164

Are y’all shooting into water to recover those?

[Outpost75]

Are y’all shooting into water to recover those?

I am shooting into water jugs, this is typical test array, shoot through chronograph and capture round at 25 feet. Some photos of typical low velocity tests of 1:30 alloy fired in a .38 S&W snubby.

214171214172

[Bluerock2000]

I am shooting into water jugs, this is typical test array, shoot through chronograph and capture round at 25 feet. Some photos of typical low velocity tests of 1:30 alloy fired in a .38 S&W snubby.

214171214172

Thanks for sharing. I've been thinking of building a hybrid Fackler box, but something that has easily removable and penetrable baffles in it to measure penetration as the boolit passes through. Maybe something like corrugated plastic-board. My initial idea is to use a sludge of water and something else, maybe fine dirt or powder of some kind to give it a little bit of consistency. Once I have the consistency I like, I could measure the weight by volume to reproduce reusing the same media. I'm still thinking about the design at the front to hold it all in but haven't quite gotten there yet. I'll post when I figure it out. More likely I'll spend a week trying to get it right and go buy water jugs at the end of the day.

[vzerone]

I am shooting into water jugs, this is typical test array, shoot through chronograph and capture round at 25 feet. Some photos of typical low velocity tests of 1:30 alloy fired in a .38 S&W snubby.

214171214172

Water is really hard on bullets. I had a big water tank I use to put a weighted down cardboard cover on and shoot bullets into it. The HV stuff really destroyed themselves. That newspaper I mentioned in my post was in a plastic retangular tank stacked tight and then poured water in it and let it soak the paper thoroughly for day or two. Actually had a little water in it when I shot at it. I thought it was like blood moist tissue in a way. I plugged the bullet holes with putty and replaced the lost water and shot at it somemore. I think I may build a lightly oiled sawdust trap next.

[Bluerock2000]

Water is really hard on bullets. I had a big water tank I use to put a weighted down cardboard cover on and shoot bullets into it. The HV stuff really destroyed themselves. That newspaper I mentioned in my post was in a plastic retangular tank stacked tight and then poured water in it and let it soak the paper thoroughly for day or two. Actually had a little water in it when I shot at it. I thought it was like blood moist tissue in a way. I plugged the bullet holes with putty and replaced the lost water and shot at it somemore. I think I may build a lightly oiled sawdust trap next.

Let me ask another question. I've decided to eliminate the gas check from the mold design, so I just tried seating a dummy round using a 275gr HP I have on hand with a BHN 10, sized to .431, and removed the gas check. I pulled the bullet and found the shank to be reduced by .001 and the front band increased by .004. Obviously my case tension is too high. I know from a previous conversation with Lee that their case sizing die is intentionally designed to size at approx .425. It's a carbide die. I've searched this forum and most conversations I've seen refer to case mouth expansion, not case sizing. How are you seating those soft boolits without deforming them?

[vzerone]

Let me ask another question. I've decided to eliminate the gas check from the mold design, so I just tried seating a dummy round using a 275gr HP I have on hand with a BHN 10, sized to .431, and removed the gas check. I pulled the bullet and found the shank to be reduced by .001 and the front band increased by .004. Obviously my case tension is too high. I know from a previous conversation with Lee that their case sizing die is intentionally designed to size at approx .425. It's a carbide die. I've searched this forum and most conversations I've seen refer to case mouth expansion, not case sizing. How are you seating those soft boolits without deforming them?

For one they are free checked using aluminum from soda cans and that makes the base and corner of base a little stronger. I make powder through expander dies and tailor my expander size to be just right with my bullets. Sometimes I make errors like any other reloader and have to pull a bullet. The ones I've pulled never showed getting sized down. Yours sound like they are really sizing down to expand that shoulder!! On a lot of my rifle dies I use bushing dies and select the proper bushing where inside neck diameter is just right for my bullet size. Too bad they don't have those for pistol/revolver dies. I'd say get the right expander sizes. I usually have the case expanded .0015 to .002 under the bullet size. Make sure you chamfer the inside of the case mouth and have a bell so to easily start the bullet. This bullet softness you and I are discussing is what I talk about the Lyman M dies leaves a shoulder than can size a very soft bullet down. If you tailor made your ow M dies they would be better. Remember most of the factory stuff is geared towards jacketed bullets.

The thing I like about free checking my soft bullets is that I can blister them in velocity and they are super explosive on small critters.

VZ

[Bluerock2000]

For one they are free checked using aluminum from soda cans and that makes the base and corner of base a little stronger. I make powder through expander dies and tailor my expander size to be just right with my bullets. Sometimes I make errors like any other reloader and have to pull a bullet. The ones I've pulled never showed getting sized down. Yours sound like they are really sizing down to expand that shoulder!! On a lot of my rifle dies I use bushing dies and select the proper bushing where inside neck diameter is just right for my bullet size. Too bad they don't have those for pistol/revolver dies. I'd say get the right expander sizes. I usually have the case expanded .0015 to .002 under the bullet size. Make sure you chamfer the inside of the case mouth and have a bell so to easily start the bullet. This bullet softness you and I are discussing is what I talk about the Lyman M dies leaves a shoulder than can size a very soft bullet down. If you tailor made your ow M dies they would be better. Remember most of the factory stuff is geared towards jacketed bullets.

The thing I like about free checking my soft bullets is that I can blister them in velocity and they are super explosive on small critters.

VZ

Thank you very much. This is one of the reasons I originally had the design with a gas check, but I've decided I don't want to risk it separating with a suppressor on the gun. Too costly. I just researched the M die and it sounds perfect. And Midway just happens to have the .44 on sale! It's on its way. Thanks again.

[popper]

Leave one of the LGs in there to collect the moved alloy. Lose the GC, bevel base wil do fine. Spend the $ for a proper seater plug that fits the nose. You don't get springback with really soft alloy so you may need a special sizer. Paco found a small dimple point gave better accuracy in 22, extra pressure point on the nose. But the 'other' guy says WC gives best performance. NOE expander with the Lee flare setup works god and he could make you a special just for your size. I had to get a M die turned for 40sw as the factory ones are for jacketed. I don't use the step on the M type to flare, but use the Lee flare. Lyman bevel tool works great too. I was playing with Pb/Zn alloy, fun to try loading that soft stuff. Sure does expand well.

[Bluerock2000]

Leave one of the LGs in there to collect the moved alloy. Lose the GC, bevel base wil do fine. Spend the $ for a proper seater plug that fits the nose. You don't get springback with really soft alloy so you may need a special sizer. Paco found a small dimple point gave better accuracy in 22, extra pressure point on the nose. But the 'other' guy says WC gives best performance. NOE expander with the Lee flare setup works god and he could make you a special just for your size. I had to get a M die turned for 40sw as the factory ones are for jacketed. I don't use the step on the M type to flare, but use the Lee flare. Lyman bevel tool works great too. I was playing with Pb/Zn alloy, fun to try loading that soft stuff. Sure does expand well.

I've had Lee make a custom seater plug, so that should help. I ended up canceling the order for the M die and ordered the (2) NOE plugs at .433 x .429 and .434 x .430. Hopefully that will do it.

[vzerone]

I've had Lee make a custom seater plug, so that should help. I ended up canceling the order for the M die and ordered the (2) NOE plugs at .433 x .429 and .434 x .430. Hopefully that will do it.

Wau to go Bluerock, you done good with the NOE plugs. So we want to hear that this changes improve your loads!!

[Bluerock2000]

Wau to go Bluerock, you done good with the NOE plugs. So we want to hear that this changes improve your loads!!

Really appreciate the help and advice from all. It is much quicker and less painful to learn from experienced folks than trial and error. My mold should be here in three weeks or so, and then I start my foray into casting. No doubt I'll need some guidance. I'm going to play with the mold a bit before I send it off for hollowpoint service. I'd like to get some boolits cast so I can play with the powder coating and ballistics testing while Erik is working on the mold. I'm also going to use this time to build something for terminal performance testing to help get the BHN right for penetration, expansion, etc. I read a post from someone on here a few years back that used play-doh for testing boolits. That's a fascinating idea to me as homemade play-doh is cheap and reusable. Build a long box with a hole in the front end and fill it with play-doh...we'll see.

[vzerone]

Really appreciate the help and advice from all. It is much quicker and less painful to learn from experienced folks than trial and error. My mold should be here in three weeks or so, and then I start my foray into casting. No doubt I'll need some guidance. I'm going to play with the mold a bit before I send it off for hollowpoint service. I'd like to get some boolits cast so I can play with the powder coating and ballistics testing while Erik is working on the mold. I'm also going to use this time to build something for terminal performance testing to help get the BHN right for penetration, expansion, etc. I read a post from someone on here a few years back that used play-doh for testing boolits. That's a fascinating idea to me as homemade play-doh is cheap and reusable. Build a long box with a hole in the front end and fill it with play-doh...we'll see.

Yeah but when you learn it the hard way it tends to stick in your mind better! LOL

[Bluerock2000]

I am shooting into water jugs, this is typical test array, shoot through chronograph and capture round at 25 feet. Some photos of typical low velocity tests of 1:30 alloy fired in a .38 S&W snubby.

214171214172

Your design inspired me, so I built this to stuff with home made playdough. Removable top so I can cram playdough in and the sides are hinged on the bottom so I can lay the whole thing open after shooting. Not sure what to expect but would be nice if the playdough held together enough to cut with fishing line and examine the wound cavity. While waiting on my new mold I'm going to try the 275 hp's from Matt's bullets this weekend and also some jacketed as I know what they do in gel and can compare. 214297214298214299214300

[Bluerock2000]

One pound at a time in the kitchen stinks. The wok makes quick work of five pounds of homemade play doh for the ballistic box. More to come...214375

[Bluerock2000]

If you are casting that soft, you want a shallow cup point for best support of the hollow point as it expands.

Hi Fred,

Could you elaborate a bit on “shallow?” Half cup diameter? Also, I’m not set on the 25:1 alloy but it seemed to be about right based on the testing pics I’ve seen of yours here and at hollow point molds website. Thanks.

[Bluerock2000]

I’m sorry, I just realized Outpost has already answered this. Apologies. And thanks.

[Bluerock2000]

Also just found this gem from Outpost in the archives. It’s coincidental that you reference the Gold Dot in here as one of my first thoughts when I set out on this project was that I wanted a 350 grain boolit that expands like a GD. Anyway, thanks again for sharing your experiences. I’ve found my HP design. 214708