.308 High Velocity at 500 yards.

[waco]

NOE 30 XCB, GC
IMR 4831 46gr
Lars 2500+ Lube\
Nosler brass, CCI LRP
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-rsMrbxQb0

[swheeler]

Nice video, thanks. You could call them tracers or smokers:bigsmyl2:

[waco]

Right?! Maybe some of that was bullet lube spinning of of the boolit.

[swheeler]

Right?! Maybe some of that was bullet lube spinning of of the boolit.

I would hope most would be gone by 500 yds? Is that a 24 inch barreled Rem with 12" twist? Looked like a couple shots took a right turn just about to target?? I would say very well done.

[waco]

It's a 22" with a 1:10 twist.
I agree that some were tailing off a bit at the end. 2260fps is just enough to keep them super sonic out to 500 yards.
I imagine a 400 yard target would be a bit easier to hit consistently.

[waco]

I'm kind of surprised this didn't gain more interest. I don't see many people trying for these kinds of distances.

[waco]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:lol

[wmitty]

I’ll try this with the rcbs 30-180-SP boolit and see if I can get them to group at 500 yds. What alloy were you using?

[35 shooter]

Well,
I'm interested lol. I'm using the xcb in a 12 twist .308 zastava mauser using imr4350. I haven't tested past 110 yds. yet, so watching your long range results.

I do like that boolit, as it was pretty easy to get some good speed and hunting accuracy with and turned out to be dynamite on whitetails even with the small meplat.

BTW, i used enough 4350 to push it to 2450 fps. chronoed in the above load with 3 coats of BLL lube.
I think linear accuracy is going to hold at distance as well as it shoots at a 100...but i've got to get out and shoot some more to prove it.:smile:

[35 shooter]

Okay,
Just watched the video and it was very well done...congrats on that!
After your last sight adj., what was the group size on the 3 shots that hit the plate? The two that went to the right of the plate on that string looked pretty well in line with those. Maybe just a bit of wind caught them...doesn't take much at that distance?

Anyway, just watching the smoke trail and impact on the steel, it looked like they were pretty tight. Nice!

[Larry Gibson]

Size of the steel?

[waco]

I’ll try this with the rcbs 30-180-SP boolit and see if I can get them to group at 500 yds. What alloy were you using?

I believe the alloy was 3-1 ww/lino +2% sn

[waco]

Okay,
Just watched the video and it was very well done...congrats on that!
After your last sight adj., what was the group size on the 3 shots that hit the plate? The two that went to the right of the plate on that string looked pretty well in line with those. Maybe just a bit of wind caught them...doesn't take much at that distance?

Anyway, just watching the smoke trail and impact on the steel, it looked like they were pretty tight. Nice!

Thank you. I didn't walk down to look at the plate. I never put a fresh coat of paint on it before we started shooting. Good call for next time.

[waco]

Size of the steel?

Larry. I was 12"x12"

[LenH]

Impressive, I am still trying to figure out a bullet at 100 yards. But I have only been trying cast about a year.

[popper]

Your vids are getting better. Good job. I finally got to 200, will have to sight @ 200 to get to 400 next time.

[vzerone]

Waco, way to go!!!! Good job and glad more are trying this such a thing. The more you keep doing this the more things will improve. You listen to what Runfiverun tells you too.

[swheeler]

Like I said very nice Waco. That figures out to 162.7K rpm at exit, smokin'!

[waco]

Thanks guys. I’ll try that same load again and maybe up it a bit. I’ll be trying some other powders as well.

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

Appears your last 6 or 7 shots (post last scope adjustment) went into, based on the 12"x12" steel, 16 - 20" +/- or 3 - 4 moa. Good job pushing the RPM Threshold up using a properly designed bullet, a slow burning powder and proper alloys. The last shot went up and away to the right and may have been caught by the Threshold. I suggest you might put a large piece of cardboard behind the steel to better track the misses.

Your results with the 30 XCB bullet in a 10” twist .308W with 24” barrel mirror my own results pushing the RPM Threshold up. The NOE 30 XCB bullet, designed by goodsteel with input from runfiverun and myself, was expressly for HV and for pushing the RPM Threshold up. The design attributes suggested by me are all there. I also found AA4350, RL19 and RL22 to perform very well in my test rifle.

I chose two powders to test under the NOE 30 XCB bullet in the .308W rifle with 10” twist; RL19 and RL22. Both of those powders gave the best accuracy out of this rifle with the Lyman 311466 and LBT 30-160-SP cast bullets. Both of those bullets began going over the RPM Threshold at about 2300 fps/165,000 RPM with RL19 and about 2350 fps/169,000 RPM with RL22. Note how both of those bullets and powders have pushed up the RPM Threshold over the incorrectly assumed “limit” of 140,000 RPM. Both of those bullets held under 2 moa accuracy with linear expansion at 200 yards. Thus with that baseline to measure against I loaded test strings of 38, 40, 42, 44 and 46 gr of each powder to test the NOE 30 XCB bullet.

The 44 gr load of RL19 gave 2313 fps, 166,536 RPM at 38,900 psi(M43). The group size was 1.55” for 10 shots. Again giving an excellent ES of 30 fps with the SD at 9 FPS. The Pressure ES was 1,200 psi with an SD of 400 psi which is excellent and demonstrating excellent ignition and uniform burn. Further group testing (10 shots) showed this load held 1.3 - 2 moa consistently.

The 44 gr RL22 load gave 2267 fps, 163,224 RPM at 37,300 psi(M43). The group size was 1.3”. The ES and SD remained low at 57 fps and 19 fps. The 46 gr RL22 load gave 2381 fps, 171,432 RPM at 41,800 psi(M43). Again the ES and SD remained constant at 62 fps and 20 fps. This load might was tested for linear group dispersion to 400 yards. The 7 of the 10 shots at 400 yards went into 6.1”. The other three hit to the right as they got caught by the wind. That opened the group to 8.3” demonstrating very close to linear dispersion and holding 2 moa.

Good job

[waco]

Thanks Larry. I like the cardboard backer behind the target. Good idea.

[vzerone]

waco what's the throat like in that rifle?

[waco]

I have not done a pound cast yet. It has a very long throat. I can not seat 175gr SMK out far enough to touch the lands.

[AggieEE]

waco, watching your video you got a 3&2 group. I'm wondering if you were not at a node where a small velocity difference(barrel time) it got launched in a different direction. I would say your rifle, bullet, powder combination wants to shoot.

[waco]

I put five rounds over the Chrony and the load looks very consistent.
2265
2257
2257
2265
2256
ES 9
SD 4.09

[tomme boy]

Just because you have a low ES and SD does not make it an accurate load.

I am in agreement with aggie. I think you need a very small tweak. How did you last 4"of your barrel look inside?

[vzerone]

Waco I'm glad you used IMR 4831 instead of H 4831. The new H 4831 isn't the same old stuff it use to be. I'm sure Runfiverun and Geargnasher told you that already. I don't think that the two are the same because they look different and are far apart on the burn rate charts, where as something like HP 38 and WW 231 are supposed to be one and same.

It's true that low ES and SD's don't always give the smallest groups. They do show your powder is burning very well.

I shoot HV and quite a few rifles and one I recently posted to Gunfreak about was the 1909 Argentine 7.65. My bores are just powder carboned to look at them.

Talking to Runfiverun and getting the scoop on your horrible throat in that rifle you done more then very good, your rifle was amazing. That flyer you had was from the sloppy long throat and nothing else.

VZ

[waco]

Thanks Vince. I’ll load more and see if I get similar results. I will tweek the load as nessesary.
The 30xcb bullets were donated by Lamar. My mold will be here Thursday.
I only had 20 rounds loaded. 5 went over the Chrony and 5 on paper. I wasted a few with scope adjustments so that only left a few to send out to 500.

I don’t have very many of Lamar’s bullets left. I’ll have to cast some and age them. Might be a bit but I’ll get back to it ASAP.
Walter.

[vzerone]

Walt you had some very well cast bullets if Lamar casts them. Learn all you can about casting. We're all the same, we think our bullets are the best, but that's more then often not true. Pick Lamar's brain and mine if you want.

VZ

[eric123]

Great job. I enjoyed watching the bullet trace with, what I assume, is the lube coming off...

[BigMagShooter]

next time take out the 'background' music, i can't hear what your saying because of it.

[whisler]

Agree on the background music, the video would be fine without it.

[waco]

next time take out the 'background' music, i can't hear what your saying because of it.

Wait...what??.......

[35 shooter]

I watched it on my cell phone the first time....it all came in just fine for me.
Very good start to your long distance cast shooting....keep em coming!

[waco]

I watched it on my cell phone the first time....it all came in just fine for me.
Very good start to your long distance cast shooting....keep em coming!

Thanks. I just got my new NOE 30 XCB 5 cavity mold in the mail today. Getting ready to clean and prep it. I'll be making up a batch of alloy this weekend and get some cast and start aging.

I still have a handful of Lamar's bullets to play with.

[swheeler]

We expect more good things. I like videos and music!:bigsmyl2:

[waco]

We expect more good things. I like videos and music!:bigsmyl2:

Scot. I just got my mold in the mail today. I'll be mixing up some alloy and casting this weekend. Thanks for the interest.
Walter

[waco]

Just because you have a low ES and SD does not make it an accurate load.

I am in agreement with aggie. I think you need a very small tweak. How did you last 4"of your barrel look inside?

Tomme Boy. The barrel was cleaned 120 cast loads ago. Besides a few kernels of unburnt 4831 it looks good. No leading.

[waco]

Just because you have a low ES and SD does not make it an accurate load.

I am in agreement with aggie. I think you need a very small tweak. How did you last 4"of your barrel look inside?

Okay. So having a low ES and SD, What would you consider an accurate load in a .308 @ 100 yards for a five shot group @ 2260fps?
I'm sure the load could use a little adjustment. And it will get one. This is the first attempt mind you.
Walter

[nagantguy]

Nicely done, you took what you learned and applied it with good gear and attention to detail. I'm proud of you and can't wait to see more. I'm on a similar quest but with .32 caliber

[Hamish]

Wanted to watch the video, couldn't hack the bongo's being louder than the dialogue,,,,,,

Is there any possibility of reloading the video without the background muzak?

[waco]

Nicely done, you took what you learned and applied it with good gear and attention to detail. I'm proud of you and can't wait to see more. I'm on a similar quest but with .32 caliber
Nagantguy. Thanks a lot! I look forward to your results!

[waco]

Wanted to watch the video, couldn't hack the bongo's being louder than the dialogue,,,,,,

Is there any possibility of reloading the video without the background muzak?
Sorry. No. But your not the first person to voice this concern. We will take this under advisement on our next video. Thanks for the input!

[vzerone]

I just turn the sound down a bit.

[tomme boy]

Waco. Just because you have a low es does not make it a accurate load.

I have some wolf 223 ammo that has shown a 5fps spread. But you put it on paper and it is a 3 moa load. You just need to find the load that has a low es and is accurate at the same time.

Your shooting two different groups MAY be from the load, but it may be you as well. I have found that when I shoot 2 groups it is USUALLY me. It came down to parallax and head position on the stock not consistent from shot to shot. Just some more to think about.

[waco]

Waco. Just because you have a low es does not make it a accurate load.

I have some wolf 223 ammo that has shown a 5fps spread. But you put it on paper and it is a 3 moa load. You just need to find the load that has a low es and is accurate at the same time.

Your shooting two different groups MAY be from the load, but it may be you as well. I have found that when I shoot 2 groups it is USUALLY me. It came down to parallax and head position on the stock not consistent from shot to shot. Just some more to think about.

Yep. Could very possibly have been me. I have a handful of those bullets left. I'll load up more of the same and try them again. I'll tweek the load up and down a bit as well to see if it hurts or helps.

[swheeler]

Keep up the good work! Hey that rpmt will be at 180-200K soon!:drinks:;-);-)

[vzerone]

Waco. Just because you have a low es does not make it a accurate load.

I have some wolf 223 ammo that has shown a 5fps spread. But you put it on paper and it is a 3 moa load. You just need to find the load that has a low es and is accurate at the same time.

Your shooting two different groups MAY be from the load, but it may be you as well. I have found that when I shoot 2 groups it is USUALLY me. It came down to parallax and head position on the stock not consistent from shot to shot. Just some more to think about.

That's easy to explain about the Wolf 223 ammo Tomme. ES and SD only have to do the velocity of that bullet at the muzzle. The problem there is that wolf ammo doesn't have match grade bullets, but the load gave very consistent velocity.

[Larry Gibson]

That's easy to explain about the Wolf 223 ammo Tomme. ES and SD only have to do the velocity of that bullet at the muzzle. The problem there is that wolf ammo doesn't have match grade bullets, but the load gave very consistent velocity.

Concur. It's during the flight of the bullet to target that the centrifugal force acts on the imbalances in the bullet which results in larger groups or poorer accuracy. However the 3 moa accuracy tomme boy was getting is within the expected criteria for the Russian bullet. Pretty much the same with our own milsurp bullets. They are not the best or most precisely balanced bullets thus they will not be as accurate as quality commercial bullets are even if the internal ballistic measurements such as the ES and SD prove better.

[vzerone]

Concur. It's during the flight of the bullet to target that the centrifugal force acts on the imbalances in the bullet which results in larger groups or poorer accuracy. However the 3 moa accuracy tomme boy was getting is within the expected criteria for the Russian bullet. Pretty much the same with our own milsurp bullets. They are not the best or most precisely balanced bullets thus they will not be as accurate as quality commercial bullets are even if the internal ballistic measurements such as the ES and SD prove better.

I couldn't agree more and exactly what I meant. Thanks for agreeing.

[runfiverun]

Concur. It's during the flight of the bullet to target that the centrifugal force acts on the imbalances in the bullet which results in larger groups or poorer accuracy. However the 3 moa accuracy tomme boy was getting is within the expected criteria for the Russian bullet. Pretty much the same with our own milsurp bullets. They are not the best or most precisely balanced bullets thus they will not be as accurate as quality commercial bullets are even if the internal ballistic measurements such as the ES and SD prove better.

this is how it works with naked lead too.
eliminate the imperfections and don't change the intended shape of the bullet and you get on target results.

[swheeler]

Yes it doesn't matter what the bullet is made of if it's balanced with no defects internal or external, enters the bore straight, doesn't receive any form of damage from the rifling, is the right alloy for the pressure range, and exits the muzzle correctly rpm has no accuracy destroying effects on it.

Absolutely correct, good post!

[waco]

15lbs. coww
6 1/2lbs Lino
1/2 pound 63/37 Sn, Pb
NOE XCB water dropped.
I'll get back to you in a month....:shock:

[tomme boy]

Vz , Larry, run. Exactly what I was say but you guys said it way better.

I bet if Waco can get all the parallax out of his scope and can load the gun without taking his head off the sock he might get rid of the 2 groups.

[waco]

Vz , Larry, run. Exactly what I was say but you guys said it way better.

I bet if Waco can get all the parallax out of his scope and can load the gun without taking his head off the sock he might get rid of the 2 groups.

Old habit for me while target shooting. Loading one at a time. I'm not sure if the loaded rounds will fit in the magazine or not. I'll have to try that.

[waco]

Time to sort, cull, and hurry up and wait.....214529

[waco]

So I got all of the boolit sorted by weight. They were all culled between 162-163gr.
I sorted the out in.01gr lots.
Time to let them age. 214709

[Road_Clam]

Nice job OP , I too plan to tackle 600 yds with the LEE 312-185 mould that I plan on doing some high velocity mid range testing with in both my 308 and my Mosin 91/30.

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

Regards weight sorting the 30 XCB bullet (NOE) for accuracy. You might read; http://goodsteelforum.com/forums/topic/does-weight-sorting-improve-accuracy/

[dverna]

Waco

Regards weight sorting the 30 XCB bullet (NOE) for accuracy. You might read; http://goodsteelforum.com/forums/topic/does-weight-sorting-improve-accuracy/

Larry,

Thanks for posting the link and for the write up. It makes perfect sense.

[Cheshire Dave]

Great shooting and I love the video. Did Julie do the work on the video? I'm not surprised at the shooting because I taught you everything you know. Okay I taught you everything I know big difference. You far surpass anything I've been able to do with cast bullets. I am just tinkering around with weird stuff

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

[waco]

Great shooting and I love the video. Did Julie do the work on the video? I'm not surprised at the shooting because I taught you everything you know. Okay I taught you everything I know big difference. You far surpass anything I've been able to do with cast bullets. I am just tinkering around with weird stuff

Sent from my SM-J320V using Tapatalk

Dave. You taught me a lot back in the day. I am grateful for it too. Thanks for the kind words. We need to meet up soon!

[waco]

Larry. In the video the 30 XCB I shot were weight sorted to .3gr (169.3-169.6)
I got my new mold and cast up 500 or so. After visual culls were tossed I decided what could it hurt to sort them out to exact weights?
At least to the parameters of my RCBS Chargmaster 1500 scale.
If .3gr was good....0 should be better, or at least no worse.
Walter

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

Looks like your weight sortment has the "bell curve" to it we all thought was good (?). And it is good for 99% of cast bullet shooting. That is until you really start pushing HV with cast bullets. To get the better bullets than I was casting I found a few years back the "curve" with XCBs should not be a "bell" but should curve up as the weight increases, plateau out on the heavy end and then there should be hardly any bullets after that. It is those bullets with the last .3 gr in weight of that "plateau" that will give the best accuracy. The testing shown in that thread demonstrates that. Weight sorting and then simply shooting those of one weight, once the really light ones are culled out, really produces little in accuracy improvement, especially if you are pushing them at high RPM.

It is the heaviest bullets coming out of the mould that are the most filled out and are the best balanced. Those are what you want. In the "normal bell curve" such as it appears you have we get few of those "best bullets". I suggest you read the testing I did and attendant explanation. Be glad to answer any questions then.

[waco]

Larry. I'd really like to see results from your 500 yard tests in the .308
I need to cast up several more batches of the XCB possibly with a tweak of the alloy if this last one does not preform well.
I will look for patterns in the weight of the next batch. Thank you for your input and testing you have shown. I would really like to compare my 500 yard results with yours if your willing to share. I'm curious as to what powders you have had luck with. IMR4831 has proven good so far. I'm not sure I can squeeze out to much more velocity with such a slow powder. I'm thinking I might have to toughen up the alloy and go to a bit faster powder.
Your thoughts?
Walter

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

Been a while since I've done any testing with the NOE 30 XCB bullet in my 10" twist .308W with 24" barrel. I don't recall shooting it past 300 yards and then with the RL19 load I used to demonstrate how to push the RPM Threshold up it held sub 2 moa. That load was 44 gr RL19 which gave 2313 fps with an ES of 30 fps and an SD of 9 fps for the 10 shot test string. The measured psi was 38,900.

H4831SC was tested in the .308W M70 Match rifle with 12" twist 26" barrel under the NOE 30 XCB. The load was 47 gr which gave 2433 fps with and ES of 33 fps, an SD of 11 fps and at a measured psi of 34,500. Accuracy through 500 yards held right at 1 1/2 moa.

A lot more of my testing with the NOE was with my .308W Palma rifle with a 14" twist 27.5" Schultz & Larson light contour Palma barrel. Neither H4831SC or RL19 proved acceptable in this rifle. I then tried AA4350 and found instant success being able to push to 2600 fps and holding 1.5 moa to 400 yards. When pushed to 2700 fps the groups opened to 2 - 3 moa. I found a 5 mph cross wind meant 15 - 18" of wind drift so paying attention to wind is very important. The measured BC of the XCB bullet at that velocity is .250. So if using ballistic programs I suggest using that BC instead of the higher computed BC listed on the NOE bullet spec sheet.

The vast majority of my NOE 30 XCB bullet testing has been out of the 30x60 XCB cartridge in my rifle "DAWN". With its 31" barrel with 16" twist I have pushed the XCB bullet to 3100+ fps but have found excellent accuracy right at 2900+ fps. That has been mostly with AA4350 powder. I have 2739 rounds through DAWN now with probably 95+% being 30 XCBs. That has covered a lot of testing at 100 to 300 yards. I have done some informal shooting out to 600 yards but nothing really serious yet.

The cold front that probably is dropping snow on you has gotten down here (not nearly as cold and no snow!) with attendant winds. I have been patiently waiting for a break with mild winds to seriously test DAWM and the 30x60 XCB cartridge at 600 yards. I may load some of the 45 gr AA4350 2433 fps loads up for the M70 in .308W and test at 500 yards. Heavy winds forecast upwards of 16+ MPH through Sunday. Monday it begins warming up and the winds drop so maybe the first of next week(?).

[Larry Gibson]

vzerone

Where oh where do you dream up this stuff.....

You understand wrong as usual, here's the problem with what you just posted; "I understand that Tim is the one that introduced you to running your pot with a PID to maintain a constant temperature. Yet you proclaim how accurate your tests are often using the word scientific.".....

Fact is Tim never introduced me to using a PID on my pot. As a matter of fact I do not use a PID at all. I use two casting thermometers to maintain a constant temperature. I'm sure now, knowing that, you'll howl to high heaven it can't be done because you read a post somewhere on the internet that said so. How is it you hallucinate and conjure up such falsehoods to fit your own claims?

Yes, truly shooting cast bullets at HV the last 10+ years has been a learning curve for me. I have posted most of that learning on this forum. Unlike some, I never claimed to know everything from day one. I have learned as I have experimented in scientific manner and have learned along the way. I used to cast pretty darned good bullets just like I've stated. Then I started shooting HV with cast. In that 10 years I've learned "good" was great for normal cast bullet shooting but at HV/high RPM "good" just was good enough. So I learned how to cast better if not excellent cast bullets because the better you can cast the bullet the better balanced it will be to start with. That is the point I was making to Waco......learn to cast not just good bullets but better bullets and how to select the best of those for HV/high RPM shooting, especially at longer range.

My NOE mould is a 4 cavity aluminum mould. I have segregated the bullets by cavity and they weigh essentially the same. I suppose you're now going to tell us, simply because I said that, NOE moulds are shoddy and can't do that?

If you knew anything about ballistics you would understand had I cast and used poor bullets in the RPM Threshold tests the results would have been more dramatic and lent greater credence to the results. That is because the premiss to the RPM Threshold is the adverse affect any imbalance in the bullet can have. Fact is I did use good cast bullets for the test (the test wasn't done with the 30 XCB bullet), I just cast better excellent 30 XCB bullets now. I could post a picture of my 30 XCBs alongside those fine 6.5 bullets you sent me (oops, that was your "cuz" wasn't it). Anyway that would show everyone what excellently cast XCB bullets look like compared to some very poor cast bullets that were claimed to shoot extremely if not unbelievably well at high RPM. But we really don't want to do that do we?

As to quoting Bryan Litz (if your going to quote him you might spell his name correctly; it's Bryan, not Brian....) your previous quote of his was with regard to the best long range match bullets made, jacketed of course, of the VLD type. Not a mention of cast bullets there at all. It was about the affect over spinning has on bullet stability. Bullet stability and the RPM Threshold are 2 different things. So let's actually quote Bryan from his very fine book, Applied Ballistics For Long Range Shooting, on the topic of imbalances in bullets. He is talking again about the finest quality jacketed match bullets and not cast bullets. Thus while the affect on jacketed bullets is not as great as it is on cast bullets (because the imbalances are greater on cast bullets) let's see what Bryan has to say that is actually pertinent;

"Consider the effect of a slight mass imbalance, probably caused by the jacket being thicker on one side than the other. An imbalance like this will cause dispersion because as the bullet emerges from the muzzle, its center of gravity gets flung off on a tangent ."

How many times have I explained that very phenomenon....the centrifugal force cause the bullet to fly off on a tangent to it's intended flight path.

Then let's quote Robert Rinker from his book Understanding Ballistics; "A bullet that is laterally unbalanced will be forced to conform while still in the barrel and its center of gravity (mass) will revolve around its geometric center. When it is free of the barrel constraint, it will move in the direction that its mass center had at the point of release. After exiting the muzzle, the geometric center will begin to revolve about the center of mass and it will depart at an angle to the bore. At 54,oo rpm to 250,000 rpm depending on velocity and twist, the centrifugal force can be tremendous. It will result in an outward radial acceleration from the intended flight path and with try to get the bullet to rotate in a constantly growing helix."

My goodness, there is that "helical arc" I often mention......

Not a theory vzerone, but ballistic fact as stated from ballisticians, including Bryan Litz who you like to quote out of context.

[popper]

Sure am glad I'm a new guy at this stuff with no opinions. With an advanced degree in tire balancing, I do have to agree with Larry G, on rotational stability and the heavy side of the bell curve. I always wished my school grades were there.

[vzerone]

Sure am glad I'm a new guy at this stuff with no opinions.

You're not new popper and you do exceptionally very good work. I never miss one of your posts.

[popper]

Ok, I will add. This is not an opinion. Tim and Larry have the right approach to the problem but! Statistically, the bell curve is a distribution of a sample with an unknown # of variables. Selecting the middle (by weight) only gets them identical by weight! Imperfections may still exist (so do the visual inspection). Gets the 'load' close to identical, good. Getting a curve that moves the peak toward the heavy side does provide more "perfect" boolits as cast. Any tricks we can apply to get this lopsided curve will make us better casters and provide better boolits. Targets will show the results.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Thank you to those of you, who are nicely discussing Waco's well detailed shooting report.

[Larry Gibson]

Thank you to those of you, who are nicely discussing Waco's well detailed shooting report.

Many thanks to you too....

[Hannibal]

I have been following this thread with interest. It is unfortunate that the subject of high velocity can not be approached on this forum without it descending into chaos.

There are differences of opinion on the subject. Some supported by data and some intriguing ideas that I think warrant more investigation.

It's a shame differences of approach and opinion can not simply be voiced and left at that without reviving old disputes. I was guilty of inappropriate behavior at one time myself. I like to think I learned from past mistakes and moved on.

Anyway, my point is, there is still a lot to be learned here, but I think the forum as a whole is tired of the bickering. It certainly has grown old for me.

I hope things improve going forward.

[waco]

I agree Hannibal. I just wanted to show people you can shoot traditionally lubed and checked boolits at a high velocity in a 1:10 twist barrel with some degree of accuracy and even do it at some distance.

The main point of my video was shooting long range. Not too much out there in YouTube land on the subject of shooting cast at 500 yards or beyond.
This was my VERY FIRST TRY. I was pretty pleased with the results. I will try to improve on them.

I sometimes feel I'm being told what was done wrong or could be done better. Okay. Possibly. Show me video proof on how you do it with better results than mine.
I'm all ears. Talk is cheap. Let's see it.

Until you can SHOW me you can at least do it as well as me, or better, don't tell me what to try next or how I'm doing it the wrong way.
Just my 2 cents.
Waco

[Shopdog]

OK Waco here's one.....if you had to critique your rig/rest/skill what would you say is the main area for improvement?And having that isolated,do you have a plan for change?

[waco]

Shopdog. The rifle has a horrible long throat from the factory. Is what it is for now. You can see I'm just laying prone with a bipod and a rear bag for a rest.
I will revisit the previous loads and see if the results are the same. I have cast up a batch of bullets of my own from a new NOE 30XCB mold. Ended up with like 500 keepers. Alloy was 15lbs cow, 6 1/2lbs lino, and 1/2lb 63/37 (Sn/Pb) bar stock.
These should be ready to shoot in about three more weeks.
I hope these do at least as well as the boolits that were donated to me by RunFiveRun.
From there. a little more of the IMR4831 and try to up the speed a bit. Play with COAL to try and shrink group size.
Possibly move to a faster powder to gain more speed if needed and toughen the alloy if necessary.
The current batch of bullets cast(they were water dropped BTW) all weigh between 162-163gr and have been sorted out to +/- 0
That is my plan anyway and I will have new video and posts to come in the near future.
Walter

[Hannibal]

Do you have any way to test the hardness of your alloy? (BHN)?

I've experimented a bit both with age hardening and water-dropping. Sometimes the results were not what I expected.

Also, I had a .223/5.56 bolt action that refused to perform consistently. It had a throat that was surprisingly long as well. I went through the trouble of setting the barrel back 3 threads and recutting the chamber and saw no improvement on the target. It shot considerably worse than yours to begin with, though. Turned out the barrel had a different issue.

Just a couple of thoughts.

[waco]

I use pencils to test BHN. I was told by R5R these should be in the 18bhn range IIRC.

[Hannibal]

Ok. I'm not famaliar with the use of pencils, but I've read about it a bit on here. The only reason I brought it up is I have found it to be important to keep track of things and only change one thing at a time. I get confused and wind up wasting time and getting discouraged otherwise.

YMMV.

[waco]

Oh I hear ya. The first thing I’ll load with my bullets is the same load I used with R5R’s bullets.
I need to see if mine will at least keep up with his. I have high hopes because it’s his alloy recipe....;)

[Forrest r]

Interesting reading:
Don't know if you're better off with that long throat or not. The 308 I just started using/testing has an extremely short/tight throat. Can't use a lot of the bullet molds I have because the noses cast too large with a hard alloy. The end result is the base of the bullet is waaaayyyyy down in the boiler room of the 308 cartridge.

I see you're age hardening your bullets. Just started doing a test with using the same alloy to cast 2 batches of bullets. The 1st batch that I cast last week was water dropped and will be age hardened. The 2nd batch that I will cast next week out of the same alloy will also be water dropped. But the 2nd batch will also be heat treated. The end result is:
aged hardened vs heat treated/hardened
30 days vs 7 days

I've never heat treated any bullets before, actually I've only heated/annealed cores for swaging jacketed bullets. Don't know what to expect but there's only 1 way to find out. Perhaps you could do a little testing in the future with age hardening vs heat treated?

[waco]

Forrest r. I was told I could expect this blend of alloy to end up around 18bnh after water dropped and aged a min. of 30 days or so.
That's a good question. I have no idea how they would end up if I put them in a 450 oven for an hour then into an ice bath.
Might have to try a small batch of the culled boolits just to see what happens.
I'll let you know.

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

You certainly have done well your "first time out" shooting cast bullets at long range and at a relative high velocity also. You certainly paid attention to what others have done and accomplished shooting HV. It doesn't matter who they were the techniques used push the RPM Threshold up and that's what you've done, and done it well. You've also demonstrated that shooting such HV loads at long range isn't that hard either. Some would have us believe getting accuracy at relatively HV from cast bullets is akin to rocket science or medieval witchcraft. It certainly isn't either but you do have to do certain things to be successful.....those are what you are doing.

Looks like I may get out on Tuesday as the wind is supposed to be 4 - 6 out of the SE. It's usually calm first thing and from the SE would put it coming in from 6 0'clock where I intend to shoot. We'll see. Weather reports says you're getting a bit of snow up your way?

[Hannibal]

Well. I see some things never change.

[waco]

Well. You know you are doing something worth while when you can bring Gearnasher out of a two plus year hiatus........

[Larry Gibson]

Well. I see some things never change.

Isn't that the truth.........

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher, runfiverun

Your comments are way off base, Waco asked for my "thoughts". Here's his post in this thread;

"Larry. I'd really like to see results from your 500 yard tests in the .308
I need to cast up several more batches of the XCB possibly with a tweak of the alloy if this last one does not preform well.
I will look for patterns in the weight of the next batch. Thank you for your input and testing you have shown. I would really like to compare my 500 yard results with yours if your willing to share. I'm curious as to what powders you have had luck with. IMR4831 has proven good so far. I'm not sure I can squeeze out to much more velocity with such a slow powder. I'm thinking I might have to toughen up the alloy and go to a bit faster powder.
Your thoughts?
Walter "

It is really a shame when a discussion can't be had on HV shooting w/o your continual personal criticism or personal attacks. I should be free to post my "thoughts" on a topic, especially when asked by the OP. If you disagree the proper adult thing for you to do is simply post your own test results proving your own points. I have continually told the both of you and have posted test results here and at http://noebulletmolds.com/smf/index.php/topic,533.msg3772.html#msg3772 on how to push the RPM Threshold up. That is what Waco is doing and we were discussing his test and pending tests I'm going to redo at his request. Is it too much to ask you tow add something positive to the thread?

[geargnasher]

Waco, I've been watching, with great interest. Your long-range work is well past what I've ever attempted and I'm really fascinated by the things you're experiencing and challenges you're working through, all good to know and I'm very glad you and your brother are spending the effort to capture your work and share with everyone. I assure you, there are people who are learning a lot right now, including me.

I will share one observation and suggestion that doesn't seem to have been addressed yet. I see two groups at both 100 and 500, with a VERTICAL spread only, which are characteristic of your load putting the bullet exiting the muzzle right in-between nodes. I'm sure you are well aware of muzzle whip etc. since you shoot a lot of long-range with your other rifles, but not sure how you approach it. When I see vertical and really clean chronograph numbers, the first thing I try is to bump the powder charge just a little (like half a grain or less in your case) and that usually closes it right up. What I'm NOT seeing is any bullet balance issues, helical flight paths, scattered circular groupings, or anything to indicate much of the input you've received already, so there's not much else to add at this point other than please keep up the good work!

Gear

[geargnasher]

Well. You know you are doing something worth while when you can bring Gearnasher out of a two plus year hiatus........

Yes, you are, but least of all on my account. I enjoy watching others doing more than the usual with an off the shelf rifle action and barrel and ordinary, cast bullets, it's a favorite pursuit of my own, but many others may not know and things like this can open up a whole new world of possibilities to them.

Gear

[tomme boy]

The 2 groups theory was brought up right away about tweaking the load. Most scoffed at that idea and that was also the reason I brought up the parallax issue too. BOTH can and will cause 2 separate groups. But that is going to be left up to Waco to determine which of the two it is.

[runfiverun]

those are not special loading techniques.
it's just what equipment he had on hand.
he was hand seating primers cause he is cheap and won't buy a table mounted priming tool.
CCI primers?
they were on sale.

he hasn't even done a throat slug yet.
he has no idea what diameter his barrel is.
he is just barely getting to the part about using fire formed cases.
he got some extra bullets I didn't melt down.
he used a load some idiot on the internet gave him.
there ain't a whole lot more he could do wrong.

[Larry Gibson]

Seems waco is doing pretty good not worrying about all that......

[runfiverun]

yes he is.
or he just done what a few others have done and focused on the can and not the can not.

[geargnasher]

The 2 groups theory was brought up right away about tweaking the load. Most scoffed at that idea and that was also the reason I brought up the parallax issue too. BOTH can and will cause 2 separate groups. But that is going to be left up to Waco to determine which of the two it is.

"doesn't seem to have been addressed yet" was sarcasm, in your and AggiEE's defense. Sorry, I forgot to put it in purple, it's been a while.

Gear

[tomme boy]

Been awhile gear, stop hiding and get posting.

[oldblinddog]

Here are some of my results from my 1-17” twist Krieger barrel Remington 700 .308 Win. The rifle wears a Remington SPS Varmint stock and the barrel is neither bedded nor free floated. The chamber is a saami spec .308 Win throated for my load.:

215153
This is shots 11-20 from this barrel ever. The load is the NOE 30 XCB over 44.2 gr. RL22 in Hornady Match brass with WLR primers. This was fired at 50 yards after shots 1-10 were used getting on paper.

215154
This was at 100 yards. The only difference here is BR2 primers.
215155
Also 100 yards. These shots were fired in less than one minute. The flyer at upper left was shot number 2.

These loads have been chronographed at ~2430 fps from my 1-12” twist rifle. As this was the initial firing of this new rifle chronographing was not done, nor were bullets sorted other than cursory visual sorting at time of casting. These bullets were air cooled but have aged about 2 months since sizing and lube. Lube is 2700+

[waco]

Here are some of my results from my 1-17” twist Krieger barrel Remington 700 .308 Win. The rifle wears a Remington SPS Varmint stock and the barrel is neither bedded nor free floated. The chamber is a saami spec .308 Win throated for my load.:

215153
This is shots 11-20 from this barrel ever. The load is the NOE 30 XCB over 44.2 gr. RL22 in Hornady Match brass with WLR primers. This was fired at 50 yards after shots 1-10 were used getting on paper.

215154
This was at 100 yards. The only difference here is BR2 primers.
215155
Also 100 yards. These shots were fired in less than one minute. The flyer at upper left was shot number 2.

These loads have been chronographed at ~2430 fps from my 1-12” twist rifle. As this was the initial firing of this new rifle chronographing was not done, nor were bullets sorted other than cursory visual sorting at time of casting. These bullets were air cooled but have aged about 2 months since sizing and lube. Lube is 2700+

So how well do they shoot at 500 yards?

[Pb Burner]

Gear, very glad to see you posting here again. I hope you stick around!

[swheeler]

Gear nice to see you here, don't be a stranger your input is always welcome!

[Bjornb]

Awesome shooting Larry. As usual.

[oldblinddog]

Yes, very good shooting Larry.

[Love Life]

Great job, Waco! Have you tried additional sorting bullets with a comparator? That's an avenue I would approach after doing your weight sorting tests. I'd also measure the fired cases and adjust my sizer to just push the shoulder back a bit to chamber. Not all at once though. I like to do one variable at a time.

[waco]

Great job, Waco! Have you tried additional sorting bullets with a comparator? That's an avenue I would approach after doing your weight sorting tests. I'd also measure the fired cases and adjust my sizer to just push the shoulder back a bit to chamber. Not all at once though. I like to do one variable at a time.

Hey Dick. Long time no talk. I will sort boolits by measuring from gas check to Ogive with a comparator as well as weight sort. Cases will be sorted as well. This fist run was kinda to see if I could even do it. Things will get refined from here.

Good to see you back and posting LL.
Walter

[waco]

Great job, Waco! Have you tried additional sorting bullets with a comparator? That's an avenue I would approach after doing your weight sorting tests. I'd also measure the fired cases and adjust my sizer to just push the shoulder back a bit to chamber. Not all at once though. I like to do one variable at a time.

This batch of boolits tested were sent to me by RunFiveRun. I just loaded them as is........
I have the same mold now. Waiting an a batch to age harden a bit.....

[runfiverun]

good job Larry.

okay this thread [minus our bickering] shows this isn't that hard.
no voodoo doctors were called in.
no super special 6 part alloy.
no fancy pre-cooked and re-gelled lubes.
simple reloading tools were used.
a pretty good bullet design was implemented and some different powders we all probably have on the shelf were used.
the bullets all got out to 500 yards in a reasonable group size without flinging off into never land.
the best and greatest rifles, scopes, and rests weren't used and they both were able to shoot pretty darn well.

hopefully this gives you guy's on the fence the prompting to look at what was accomplished pretty easily here and give it a go for yourselves..

:2 drunk buddies:

[geargnasher]

Yes, good job indeed, to Waco and Larry both, I mean it.

It wasn't all that long ago that any claim of 2.5 MOA linear to 500 yards at 2250 fps mv from a bone-stock action/barrel available to any of us at Walmart immediately resulted in a deluge of posts and technical data showing it can't be done, and some would even accuse the person of fibbing. Later, when enough people learned to do it, it was ok, as long as they were the right ones saying so. Now it's a look here, anyone can do it, and that's OK! My how times have changed for the better. And someone wrote earlier that they hadn't. Well, it looks like they have. I gave Larry a blast more than once years back (it's on the forum) about if he'd just learn to hand-load like some of the rest of us were doing, he could get the results we were getting and wouldn't have to spend so much energy questioning veracity, telling us 1900 fps was all we could get with precision, and fighting with us about RPM! Yes, Larry, I was rattling your cage with those comments, but I kinda meant it, too, you weren't doing this stuff back then with normal twists. Now you are, and have shown a time or two more recently, it's good to see.

Hopefully those old days are past us now, because all I ever wanted is what Waco wants, and a lot of others want also: Take a store-bought rifle, throw it in a decent stock (or just bed it properly), put some good glass on it, put together some strong loads, learn to shoot it, and go have fun banging steel whatever without any drama....and further....be able to come here to share or ask for simple assistance getting better at it when we run out of ideas or experience to get past a hurdle. Maybe that's possible now? I sure hope so.

Before anyone sputters "Bbbbbbutttbbutttbuttt the 14 twist shot better, so the RPM theory is true!!", please take a breath and just mull this over: The custom rifle didn't shoot all THAT much better, the 10-twist, 24" Argie still shot a pretty decent, controlled, consistent 500 yard group with what's probably linear dispersion and near the transonic point at the target, and at the same time we got an ordinary dude shooting a factory 22" rifle here who started the thread and he's using some basic loading tools and a store-bought rifle shot off a bipod out of the back of his truck, with not any prior HV cast experience, and still bang 12" steel at 500 yards (and group as well as a lot of factory hunting ammo, at some impressive cast bullet velocities), and I at least think that's pretty cool.

Gear

[geargnasher]

no fancy pre-cooked and re-gelled lubes.
:2 drunk buddies:

Heck, I done it WITH fancy re-gelled lubes that scored in the 30th percentile against the lube Larry and Waco and a bunch of other HV shooters are using, so yeah, you can do it with stuff you can buy cheap from White Label no problem.

Just don't try to hit anything with it the first couple shots on a cold morning, or after you pull the heat-soaked rifle and ammo out of your 140°F trunk.....:bigsmyl2:

Gear

[Rcmaveric]

Nice job and good video. Impressive. Farthest I have shot is 200 yards. Keep up the good work.

[Hannibal]

You guys are gettin' better, but I'm still thinking a 'group hug' is not going to happen any time soon. [smilie=1:

All kidding aside, I can not help but notice that a little bit of courtesy and civility goes a long way. I hope the trend continues. Disagreement about approach and methods has never been the problem. A lack of common courtesy and disregard of civility has been the problem.

And I REALLY hope no one is 'shining everyone on' and poking pins in voodoo dolls elsewhere. (AHEM!)

Nice shooting, fellas. You're gonna inspire me to resume experimenting if this continues.

[Larry Gibson]

geargnasher

Your right, I did learn along the way just as I said earlier in this thread. I did learn you, me or no one else is going to get the old standard cast bullets with short bearing surfaces and a long nose to do what has been shown here at 2265 fps from any 10" twist. The reason for that is the RPM Threshold. Some of you still don't want to believe that and that's fine but the proof is there. I began learning what could be done when I started using the 311466 in 10 and 12" twist .308Ws more than 8 years ago. Higher velocity with linear group dispersion at longer ranges proved possible.

About 8 years ago I was given the take off 14" S&L twist Palma barrel by a gunsmith friend. That barrel was put on a byf M98 action with no "custom" work done on it other than D&T and welding on a scope friendly bolt handle. It still has the military trigger in it I tweaked. The stock was the 1st attempt at a fiberglass stock from a mould made using an old original Savage 112V stock. The maker had thrown the stock in the garbage and I fished it out. I bedded the byf action in it, installed an accessory rail, spray painted it black ($1.95 rattle can) and put a leather lace on butt pad on it. The barrel was screwed in and tightened up with no lathe work needed. The chamber headspace was about .005 short so I finished reamed it with a 7.62 M118 reamer. No truing or anything else "custom" done. If I showed up in goodsteels shop with it he'd probably throw me out.

Anyways most of my HV instant success with the 311466 in both my M70 Match rifle with 12" twist and in the Palma 14" twist rifles has been posted on this forum in numerous threads. Yes, I tried other bullets that were purported to give excellent "bughole" accuracy at HV. I even bought one of 45 2.1s designs in a mould from starmetal. It fared no better at HV than any other with a bore riding nose. I tested many lubes at HV and posted a report here. I changed powders, primers, cases, NS'd, FL'd, different alloys with different percentages of tin and antimony, even got some babbitt sent to me to try. None made any of those older designs or newer designs with shorter bearing surfaces and bore rider noses perform very well above the RPM Threshold, especially in 10" twist barrels. With some of those things done you could push the Threshold up a bit but not nearly as far as Waco and I have demonstrated. To do that it took a cast bullet of proper design, good casting technique, good loading technique, a proper lube, a proper alloy and a proper slow burning powder. Nothing voodoo or witchcraft there just using what is needed.

The 311466 was/is an excellent bullet for HV shooting in any twist from 10" to 17" but it has one flaw. When it was designed there weren't the modern lubes we have readily available today. Thus the lube grooves are to deep and too large. It has a long for bullet length bearing surface and a short non-bore rider nose. It is still a very useful bullet for successful HV shooting.

The next leap forward was goodsteels 30 XCB design. Myself and runfiverun had input into that design. My input was at least 65% bearing surface, the smaller shallow lubes grooves and no bore riding nose. The first XCB was a flat meplat truncated nose design made by Accurate. It performs quite well up through 2400 - 2500 fps in a 14" twist but not above that. I didn't test it in faster twists as I was interested in the highest velocity of 2600 - 2700 fps that the 311466 had proved successful at. I conversed with goodsteel about a proper ogive for the redesign and also with Al Nelson at NOE. NOE makes the proper HV 30 XCB. When Al made my mould I requested it be cut in a 4 cavity aluminum mould for #2 alloy dropping them at .310 - .3105…..my mould does exactly that.

The NOE 30 XCB met instant success in my 14” Palma rifle giving consistent sub 2 moa (usually close to 1.5 moa) up to 2700 fps. I finally, after a thousand+ 30 XCB test rounds settled on the 2600 fps load as used in the test yesterday. However, it wasn't until I paid attention to my "bell curve" weight sortment and how those weight sorted bullets shot that I discovered I could cast better bullets. Learning to cast bullets so the weight sortment was not a bell but was a plateau that ended abruptly was the break through. Using such weight sorted bullets the Palma rifle has given many sub moa 10 shot groups at 100 yards and moa accuracy at 300 yards. Also, as seen yesterday, it and the 10" twist rifle does quite well at 500 yards with the better cast bullets.

Still there was considerable resistance to the concept of controlling RPMs for much faster HV cast bullet shooting. Also the lingering quest of just how fast a ternary alloyed cast bullet could be pushed while maintaining 2 moa accuracy or better with linear dispersion at longer range. Both Bjorn and I put our money where our mouths were and had goodsteel built rifles (.308W, 30x60 XCB and 30-06 XCB) with longer barrels having 16, 17 and 18” twists. With those we pushed the NOE 30 XCB accurately to 3200+ fps holding 2 moa or less. In my own 30x60 my standard load is the NOE 30 XCB at 2900 fps with moa accuracy to 400 yards (was going to test yesterday at 600 yards but the wind picked up to 12 – 14 mph. A 10 mph crosswind will push the XCB bullet at 2900 fps 66” (5.5’) at 600 yards. I’ll wait for a less windy day thank you. Those high velocities are possible by controlling the RPM and good loading, casting techniques.

Waco is doing well, I told him that. He is at the point where he can do better. To do so he needs to cast better bullets as suggested by the bell curve of his weight sortment. I intended no criticism of his or runfiveruns bullets. I was just suggesting waco could probably cast better. A plateau weight sortment would demonstrate that. To do so may or may not require a change of alloy also. I found #2 alloy to be the best for a ternary alloy at HV. #2 alloy also gives the most uniform cast bullets as evidenced by weight sorting. Waco may also want to try other powders. Don’t know on that as I didn’t test IMR4831. That remains to be seen. I mean no criticism of Waco as I continually strive to do better also. We never know when the next “break through” will come.

As a point of discussion; I perceive there is a big difference between 2265 fps and 2600 fps (difference between the 10" twist and 14" twist rifles). We consider the 300 fps difference between a "standard" cast bullet load at 1950 fps and a "HV" 2250 fps to be a great leap forward. Thus I also consider the 335 fps difference between the 10" twist and the 14" twist velocities to be a great leap forward.....just a matter of perspective is all.

It’s good to see in runfiverun’s last post he agrees with what I’ve been saying for years……it’s also good we may come to an agreement also. I really don’t expect you to extol the facts of the RPM Threshold. It would be much better for all concerned if the bickering stops and we just post factual information based on testing. You say you’ve “not gone where waco has gone” ….perhaps you should, maybe runfiverun too? Who knows, you may discover the RPM Threshold is alive and well yet can be pushed up a bit…..as both Waco and I have demonstrated. You might also be inclined to use a slower twist barrel to really shoot accurately with consistency.

Let us all endeavor to learn more as we go along and share that information here.

[runfiverun]

500 yds just ain't my thing.
I don't need it for hunting and 300 yds is the length of my range.
I concentrate on getting to the 1-2-300 yd mark as quickly and as accurately as possible.

on our Wednesday night shoots I compete with guy's shooting a variety of rifles many of them are 6PPC or 243 ai type rifles that have triggers that cost more than my rifle and scope combined.

every now and then I manage to pull off a win at the cooper shoot at 100 [cooper is a circle slightly smaller than a dime, closest to the center wins] or the x shoot at 300 [x shoot is a 3/4" tall X closest to the cross on the X wins]
beating those F-type, custom built, and BR type rifles with a home spun cast bullet at 23-2400 fps is a lot more satisfying [to me] than hitting a target at 500yds.
the second week in a row that I won the cooper shoot I got a pic in the weekly paper,,, shooting/hunting is a thing around here.

so you can see why the XCB rifle was something I was so excited about.
it was the first time I ever had a rifle re-barreled.
I was lucky that I had got a barrel from a friend just before he passed away, otherwise I wouldn't have even been able to participate in that.
no clue who made it I was just lucky and happy to have it.
after all this time I haven't even shot 20 rounds through the rifle because I want all the right parts on it when I do start shooting it.
I'm slowly saving for a new trigger and maybe a heavier bench type stock one day.
until then I will shoot what I have available as best as I can with what I got.

[oldblinddog]

Nothing wrong with that. I agree. Not many people have access to any kind of shooting area much beyond 100 yards that isn’t cost prohibitive. At the range that I have close to me the longest range is only 100 yards. However, I often shoot on the 50 because the benches on the 100 suck. They are adequate for a quick 3 shot group for the annual deer hunt... The benches on the 50 allow much better testing/chronographing. My club range has 100 and 200 yard and a 500 meter range as well as other ranges, but it is a 3+ hr drive which means it is a day trip. With my schedule, I have to use the day I get so it becomes an infrequent trip if the weather/winds are bad.

Over there on the left is my rifle expert badge which means I have shot for score at 500 meters (as well as 200 & 300) and that with an M16A1. There is no mystery to it. But I want to test my rifle’s limits.

[Love Life]

Hey Dick. Long time no talk. I will sort boolits by measuring from gas check to Ogive with a comparator as well as weight sort. Cases will be sorted as well. This fist run was kinda to see if I could even do it. Things will get refined from here.

Good to see you back and posting LL.
Walter

I look forward to the results! I stopped at 300 yards with that bullet in a Schneider poly twist barrel. I figured the time I spent trying to push the envelope was cool, but I hate to not shoot a rifle to it’s potential and ended up going to my matchkings, lol. Thanks for posting the results for us!

[dverna]

500 yards is a long way off. The longest range I have access to is 300 yards and that is about as far as I feel I can make an ethical shot.

I admire what some of you have done at long range with cast bullets. It is amazing.

Great job guys!

[tomme boy]

So what does everyone think of the heavy trace of the bullets? High humidity day and perfect light? Or something else?

Keep it up Waco. Make sure to video it when you get another day of shooting. Much better to watch than listening to a bunch of old men argue about the contour of their barrel.

[runfiverun]

I think vapor trail like you see on the wing of a sprint car as it enters a corner at 80 mph or so.
they are going what 115-120 fps.

[waco]

I think there was a bit more going on there. Looks like smoke to me. We have another video shooting at the same target, same place, same time of day with very similar weather conditions. We were using jacketed bullets in the 6.5cm.
Check it out and see the difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEzMdXuC4O4

[oldblinddog]

So what does everyone think of the heavy trace of the bullets? High humidity day and perfect light? Or something else?

Keep it up Waco. Make sure to video it when you get another day of shooting. Much better to watch than listening to a bunch of old men argue about the contour of their barrel.

That is a vapor trail left by the bullet creating a vacuum in the air as it travels. The pressure change created by the vacuum causes the vapor trail. I see those in the scope in .22 BR. You can watch the bullet all the way to the target.

[tomme boy]

I know what a vapor trail looks like. And something else is going on with the cast bullet trace. The vid of the 6.5 cr is a classic demo of a trace. You can't always see it. Depends on the weather at the time you are shooting,

I am thinking the lube is being atomized and leaving the "smoke" trail. Maybe, mabye not????

[Hannibal]

I think it was an anomaly of the conditions on that particular day. If you can reproduce it, then things will become much more interesting. Meanwhile, I think if it were me, I would be focused on hitting that target at that distance with the same or better regularity.

I apologize if that seems 'snarky', as that is not my intent. But I can't tell you how many times I thought I was 'on to somethin' only to discover that those results were the exception and not the norm.

The only thing I've ever been able to consistently 'lobb in' like that were 22LR at 300 yds. But I freely admit, I got no smoke, vapor or any other trail. And I am not a videographer, so unfortunately you'll just have to take my word on it. Sure was entertaining to see those bullets arc in there in the late evening sun, though. And it was repeatable. Years apart, not just days. I make sure I do it at least 1 day every year, 'cause it makes me giggle like a little girl.

YMMV.

[waco]

All I can really tell you is it was not too long after sun up. We were shooting pretty much to the West, and it was cold. Just at or below freezing.

[oldblinddog]

All I can really tell you is it was not too long after sun up. We were shooting pretty much to the West, and it was cold. Just at or below freezing.

Early morning with cool temperatures and (relatively) high humidity will do it everytime.

[Larry Gibson]

I think there was a bit more going on there. Looks like smoke to me. We have another video shooting at the same target, same place, same time of day with very similar weather conditions. We were using jacketed bullets in the 6.5cm.
Check it out and see the difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEzMdXuC4O4

What was observed with the 6.5 was the "bullet trace", very well known among high power shooters. It's simply the disturbance in the air behind the bullet.........similar to the "wake" behind a boat in the water. When you see pictures of long range HP coaches behind the shooter with those large spotting scopes they are not looking at bullet holes in the target. They are watching the trace of the bullet to see how the wind is affecting the bullet and where the bullet goes into the target. The observed trace will end a short distance before the target and just a little above point of impact.

In the first video I suspect what is seen also in that trace is lube vapor condensing. The bullet is very hot when it comes out of the barrel and the bullet and lube are further heated by air friction, especially the fast the velocity is. The lube melts, vaporizes and then condenses in the cold air (it seemed like a fairly cold day in that video?) and is observed in the trace. I used to see the same thing all the time shooting in cooler weather in NE Oregon with cast bullets. Exact same load in warmer weather would not show any "smoke vapor" in the trace.

[Larry Gibson]

500 yards is a long way off. The longest range I have access to is 300 yards and that is about as far as I feel I can make an ethical shot........!

I'm watching the weather forecasts for the next low wind day and will be back out at daybreak. I have the last 75 XCBs of that last weight sortment loaded in 30x60 XCB cases. They are 2900 fps out of my 30x60 XCB rifle with the 16" twist barrel. I'm going to shoot that rifle "DAWN" at 600 yards.......should prove interesting.

215397

Left to right; my 308 CBC, .308W, 30 XCB (30x57), 30x60 XCB and the 30-06 all with the 30 XCB bullet.

215398

[tomme boy]

You can slow the speed of playback down to .25 and you can clearly see the smoke or vapor. You can also see that on some of the shots the bullet is clearly unstable.

[Larry Gibson]

tomme boy

The bullets are still stable. What you're seeing (pretty neat isn't it...:bigsmyl2:)..is actual evidence of bullets in flight that exceed the RPM Threshold and go off on a tangent to the flight path. Notice, once Waco had the elevation correct, the 3 shots that hit steel flew straight on their trajectory. The misses all took off on a tangent beginning very early in the flight path as the bullet was ascending to apogee. It is especially noticeable with that last shot which started out on the same flight path but then really went high and away. That is exactly what I describe as occurring when a load is borderline exceeding the RPM Threshold. The 3 shots that hit did not exceed the RPM threshold and the others did, which is why they missed the steel.

Waco may want to re-chronograph that load and perhaps drop it back to 2200 fps. He was getting was getting 2260 fps with a faster burning powder than I used in a 5.4" shorter barrel with a softer alloyed XCB bullet. I know the 2267 fps load I tested is right under the RPM threshold for the powder and alloy I am using. Obviously he is pushing the bullet harder to obtain the same velocity. Some of the bullets he shoots with that load exceed the RPM threshold. That would also explain the apparent 2 separate groups he got on the 100 yard target in the video.

I don't know how many times I was asked, if not demanded of, to get a camera and film cast bullets in flight exceeding the RPM Threshold. Well, here it is.

tomme boy, thanks for pointing out the obvious with a reduction in video speed.

[waco]

Larry. I think it's a velocity thing. We saw the same results only worse when I was testing the Saeco 315 copy and the 312299. They were only doing 2180 and 2040 respectively. These loads were going sub sonic long before they reached the target causing them to start to yaw and become unstable.

The XCB was doing 2260. This is BARELY staying super sonic out to 500. These were showing better, yet not stellar results. I really think another 100-150fps would greatly improve the hit ratio.

I have about the cheapest tool to measure speed. A Chrony. This was set up 6 yards in front of the muzzle. Next time out with the same load I'll use my brothers new Magnetospeed chronograph.

Before this test the loads I was shooting were only doing 1600 fps. These looked like they were shot from a sling shot! They were going sub sonic just past 200 yards or so. That transition between super and sub sonic does very strange things to bullets.

I'll try for 2350-2400fps if accuracy holds. I believe these will prove to be more consistent.
Walter

[tomme boy]

To me what I see is the rotation of the bullet. Then there is another rotation that is larger that the bullet path is following. Don't know if I am explaining it right??

Pretty cool seeing the lube burning/vaporizing off the bullet as it goes down range then stops. Wonder if the lube that does not fly off may create some of the imbalance or whatever it is called?

I have shot to 500yards with my 308 with the Lee 155gr and never seen the smoke. Pretty funny as the drop at 1000 for 168amax was almost the same as the lee at. 500. Hit the 12" plate almost every shot. We had very gusty winds that day and was the reason for 5he misses.

[waco]

To me what I see is the rotation of the bullet. Then there is another rotation that is larger that the bullet path is following. Don't know if I am explaining it right??

Pretty cool seeing the lube burning/vaporizing off the bullet as it goes down range then stops. Wonder if the lube that does not fly off may create some of the imbalance or whatever it is called?

I have shot to 500yards with my 308 with the Lee 155gr and never seen the smoke. Pretty funny as the drop at 1000 for 168amax was almost the same as the lee at. 500. Hit the 12" plate almost every shot. We had very gusty winds that day and was the reason for 5he misses.

Tomme. How fast were you pushing that Lee 155gr?
Waco

[geargnasher]

Remember the MagnetoSpeed will affect barrel harmonics to some degree, try your groups with and without.

Gear

P.S. I have the sane question for Tomme.

[waco]

Remember the MagnetoSpeed will affect barrel harmonics to some degree, try your groups with and without.

Gear

P.S. I have the sane question for Tomme.

Gear. Yeah. We saw that on my brothers 6.5CM. It printed about 4 inches high at 100. Groups looked identical minus the height difference....

[Larry Gibson]

so why didn't yours do it again.
I must have missed it.

The velocity for Waco's and my 30 XCBs were essentially the same out of the 10" twist barrels; 2260 fps for his and 2267 fps for mine. The devil is in the details as to the bullets and how they got there;

Waco's bullets were softer than mine.
My 30 XCBs were WQ'd #2 alloy at 21 - 23 BHN.
My 30 XCB s were weight sorted differently than Waco's with mine at the top end of the "plateau" instead of the usual bell curve.
The barrel on my rifle is 2" longer, might not seem like a lot but it is.
Waco used IMR4831 which is a faster burning powder than the RL22 I used thus I used a slower time pressure curve to reach the same velocity.

Using a measured BC for the 30 XCB bullet obtained from the time of flight actually measured across 100 yards and inputting the data into the Applied Ballistics program (obtained with Bryan Litz's very fine book on long range ballistics) the remaining velocity at 500 yards is 1065 fps.....just beginning going subsonic.

Waco's load with his components were borderline at the RPM threshold. That was evident because 4 of the 9 shot traces followed the flight path and went into probably 14 - 16" (based on the 12" size of the steel). The other 5 shot were obviously above the RPM threshold because they left the flight path in a tangent prior to the bullet reaching the apogee of the trajectory. Those bullets continued to fly point forward so stability was not the issue. Thus we see 4 shot were slightly under the RPPM Threshold and 5 shots were over. That was very evident watching the bullet traces and from the 4 - 5 + moa group for the 9 shots.

All 10 shots of mine appeared to stay under the RPM Threshold for the components I use which is why I put 10 shots into 11 1/4" at 500 yards. However, my load also may have been borderline with the 2 wide shots that just creased the edge of the frame having been very slightly above the RPM threshold. The 8 shots on target were basically what the linear dispersion should have been had the load been under the RPM Threshold as was the case with the 14" twist load which was 335 fps faster yet of a considerably less RPM. That's why I think my load in the 10" twist barrel at 2267 fps (163,224 RPM) was borderline at the RPM Threshold for that load. Not quite as much as Waco's but still borderline. It was the subtle differences in the alloy/bullet hardness, barrel length and time pressure curve (powder burning rate used) that made that subtle difference.

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

"Larry. I think it's a velocity thing. We saw the same results only worse when I was testing the Saeco 315 copy and the 312299. They were only doing 2180 and 2040 respectively. These loads were going sub sonic long before they reached the target causing them to start to yaw and become unstable."

Go back and look at the bullet traces in your video of those 9 shots once you got on target with the speed reduced to .25. Five of those shots veered off on a tangent away from the flight path before the bullet reached the apogee of the trajectory. That means they were off on that tangent well before the velocity dropped below 1500 fps, well before going sub sonic. I think increasing the velocity will only exasperate the accuracy. Go ahead and try it but the proof your load is borderline at/above the RPM Threshold is right there in your video. It is not a "stability thing" as your bullets remained stable through out their flight.

We understand you have test fired the 20 rounds you loaded in the second video....how did those shoot?

[Larry Gibson]

BTW, geargnasher is correct. The use of the MagnetoSpeed will not only affect the barrel harmonics but I've found it most often affects the point of impact (zero) to some degree.

[waco]

Larry. No. I have not shot the next 20 rounds yet. I'm not sure where you came up with this info? I will post results when I do though.
I have 20 rounds of the exact same load in the 500 yard video to retest, and some of the same bullets from Fiver loaded with RX15 to try and attain more speed.
This weekend's weather looks dismal. Might be another week or so, but I'll post results as soon as I can.
Waco

[Larry Gibson]

Larry. No. I have not shot the next 20 rounds yet. I'm not sure where you came up with this info? I will post results when I do though.
I have 20 rounds of the exact same load in the 500 yard video to retest, and some of the same bullets from Fiver loaded with RX15 to try and attain more speed.
This weekend's weather looks dismal. Might be another week or so, but I'll post results as soon as I can.
Waco

Waco

geargnasher posted this in post #97; "Waco has already videotaped what those 20 rounds, loaded the same way, have done a few days ago."

Perhaps I misunderstood...."have done"......?

Those weather fronts that role through your area often end up down here a day or two later.....it isn't looking good for a wind friendly day here for a week either......

[waco]

Larry. Not really sure what Ian meant when he said that. I just loaded these rounds up on Feb.24th
The only time I have shot Fivers bullets were on film. I do have the remaining ones loaded and ready to go.
I will post the VIDEO results when I get a chance to go shoot them. The good, bad, and the ugly.
Waco

[waco]

Larry. You really should get a video camera. In this day and age they are SO cheap. The Sony I got zooms in to 500 like you saw in the video.
This would remove all doubt on your testing. Nobody can call me out on what I have done because it's right in front of you in real time.

I have been accused before of false results from pics I have posted. Some people think run of the mill products won't reach out to a mile. They are wrong.

This summer will produce some great videos of extended long range shooting. Jacketed of coarse.

Please don't use MY video to try and prove YOUR results here. You NEED to prove this for yourself. Film it in real time. Nobody can call you out then. Good, bad, or indifferent, your results will speak for themselves.

I look forward to seeing your future results with the .308 at high velocity with a 10" twist.

Thank you very much for your input and contribution to all who are following this thread.
Walter

[runfiverun]

okay, okay.
so your saying he needs to go faster.

I really think his 2 group results at 100 are from barrel harmonics.
some of the 500yd shooting results is from those same harmonics.

if he sighted in on a low shot and hit the target with only low shots that would explain the couple straight over the top.
the one that fell out was flat out a flier, ignition, neck tension, or a flaw [maybe the thin check come off?]
I really think his results are encouraging.
I would have to find something like a 30-40 moa scope rail to get my 308 out that far.
those are not all that common, and just about any of the older scopes would run out of clicks long before they could screw that much drop in.
I'm pretty surprised yours had that many clicks.

[waco]

Pretty sure Larry said I need to go slower.

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

Not sure where you're getting the idea that I'm "calling you out"? I've said a couple times in this thread that you're doing well. I was called out by gearnasher for that. You are doing well. I'm trying to help you do better. I was where you're at not too long ago but I learned to do better. I've no doubt you can do better. At least you are shooting at 500 yards unlike some others. I am trying to help you do better. I also am trying to do better myself.

If anyone has any doubt on my testing or my results they are free to come here and we'll go shooting. Several forum members have. They have shot my HV loads out to 300 yards with excellent success. I'd be more than happy to shoot with you. Maybe I'll get into your neck of the woods. I do travel through eastern Oregon often. Perhaps a meet in Nevada? That invitation to shoot and even see how I reload and cast has been extended for some years now to anyone, particularly those who disagree with me.

I also have no idea how you perceive I am using your video to prove my results. Your video speaks for itself and my on target results speak for themselves. I don't "NEED" to prove anything for myself. I have been proving it for years in test after test many requested by those who disagree. Now I "NEED" to video? I don't think so because if anyone wants to question my veracity they are welcome to come here and see for themselves.

As to future results with my 10" twist at high velocity unless you and I get together or someone wants to come see for themselves I probably won't be shooting HV cast in it. I hadn't shot any HV in that rifle since I did the test posted on the NOE forum until you asked for results at 500 yards here. I did the test for you and posted the results. My HV 30 caliber shooting with cast bullets is mainly with the .308W 14" twist Palma rifle with 2600 fps 30 XCBs or the 30x60 XCB rifle with a 16" twist at 2900 fps with the 30 XCB bullets. In the last 2 years I have put over 2800 rounds of high velocity cast bullets (mostly NOE 30 XCBs) through the 16" twist rifle. By controlling the RPM I am truly shooting HV at 2900 fps with consistent excellent accuracy. That beats the heck out of the frustrations of trying to get a 10" twist to shoot that way at more than 2267 fps. It's a heck of a lot more satisfying to bust clay birds at longer ranges at HV.

Yes I know you have that 10" twist rifle and want to make it shoot better at 500 yards. I think it will to and am just trying to help you do that because I have.

But, again, if you want to get together I'll gladly load some up again for the 10" twist .308W rifle or even the 12" twist .308W rifle. Otherwise I don't think Ill do anymore with the 10" unless you or someone else wants to see it done. I've tested it enough and know it's limitations. Be glad to help.

[Shopdog]

Waco,have you tried shooting a box test with this scope?There's been some serious work and discussion on the Accurate shooting forum on scope testing.Getting past folks wedged panties,it's my opinion that we're leaving some good accuracy on the table by not fully understanding the precision side of optics.I've straightened and adjusted enough "bad" scopes to say that,given the right equipment and an eye/ear/feel for precision,that it's pretty apparent sloppiness,inside a typical scope could benefit from a little tune up?

Also,slap a yardstick up on target (use a plumb line) and run the scope through it's elevation clicks.You should experience some stiction at the extremes.Good luck,BW'b.

[Larry Gibson]

Pretty sure Larry said I need to go slower.

With those components that is what I'm saying. With those components you are doing very well at HV. I am also saying you could probably get better accuracy at the velocity level you're at with a few improvements. They seem like minor things but they made the difference in my own HV cast bullet shooting. By using them I was able, with the 10 and 12" twist .308W rifles, to achieve better accuracy at top end velocities.

Those small subtle changes were to use an alloy closer to Lyman #2 (90/5/5) WQ'd quicker out of the mould or HT'd so the BHN is 21 - 23. Using an improved alloy and a better casting technique my weight sortment curve reached a plateau at the heavy end, not be a "bell curve". Those weight sorted bullets in the heavy end plateau proved much more accurate, especially at HV and longer ranges. A switch to the slower burning powder to increase the time pressure curve which was close to 100% load density and ignited and burned efficiently also makes a difference.

Just trying to help you.

[runfiverun]

umm slower would not get your bullets to 500 yds.
you could also just shoot at say 300 yds and say it was 500 yds, but that isn't the right thing to do either.

[popper]

Waco - I could send you some Sb/Cu alloy that goes to 2700 with 4895 to try casting some XCBs, They seem to not have the RPM thingy problem. Slowest powder I have is LEverE, haven't tried it in 308W.

[waco]

Popper. I just might take you up on the offer. Thanks.

[waco]

PM sent Popper.

[ShooterAZ]

Enough is enough guys, the back and forth bickering needs to stop. Please keep it civil and on topic!

[Larry Gibson]

ShooterAZ

You're not that far away, how's about we get together for a HV shoot?

Been thinking......

We've an excellent 300 yard range here. We can chronograph every shot (Oehler M35P). I can load up rounds for my 10, 12 and 14" twist .308Ws above and below the RPM Threshold.

10" twist; 1900 fps and 2400 fps
12" twist; 2300 fps and 2600 fps
14" twist 2600 fps and 2900 fps.
(Velocities approximate)

You (or I, or we can alternate?) can shoot 5 or 10 shot groups (your choice) with each different twist at 100, 200 and 300 yards. We can measure each group and compare for accuracy and linear group expansion as the range increases. Shouldn't take more than a day on the range (180 rounds if we shoot 10 shot groups), I'll buy lunch and dinner and have a guest room if you need to stay overnight. All you need to do is come on over and shoot my guns and my ammo.....what say you?

P.S.; same offer is extended to waco, runfiverun and geargnasher......just to be fair.

[runfiverun]

I usually come that way in the spring to fish lake Powell, Havasu ain't that much further and has more Bass.

[Larry Gibson]

C'mon down, fishing is supposed to be good this year. They did a sonar mapping of the lake and found there's more fish than they thought.

[tomme boy]

Gear, not sure what the speed was. When I sold the rifle everything I had including all reloading info went with it.

I do know it was varget. It is one of my favorite powders. And it reduces well just like 4895.

[waco]

I got some 30 XCB boolits sized and lubed today. I’ll test these with RX15 I think. 215747

[35 shooter]

They look great Waco! Looking forward to the rl15 results.

[bullseye67]

Good evening,
Waco excellent video skills!! The vapour trails are really neat.
You are where I was with shooting HV 30 XCB boolits at 2200+ FPS. I had tried all the boolits I had. Lyman 311299, 311466, LEE 309 180, 150+170 FN and an RCBS 180FN and probably a couple more I can’t remember. In my Savage 30-06 I could push the 311299 to 2250 even 2300 with accuracy depending on powder. In my 308 I could get the same velocity but hand-full-of-wheat accuracy. Well fast forward a couple of years and I read about the 30 XCB boolits. Hmmmm....maybe I should try one. A year of trying and I had several good runs with several different powders at 2500 in the 30-06. Good accuracy several 10 shot groups at 100 yards of just over an inch...man I was thrilled. Switch to the 308 get up to 2500 and poof.... volleyball sized groups....***? Slow down to 2350-2375 and groups as good as the 30-06. So I just loaded them at 2200 FPS and dinging plates and knocking down bowling pins out to 200 yards easy peasy. That was where I stopped.
Fast forward to December 2017 and I am close to LHC. I get in touch with Larry and we get together. WOW is all I can say. Shooting and using rifles setup for HV was AMAZING!!! Larry was the perfect host. I was able to ask a lot of questions about alloys, casting techniques, reloading and prep. We went to SARA Park and setup on the 300 yard piggy. Larry laid a fresh coat of paint on the old girl and tossed a few clays on the berm behind the 300 yard line. We then setup a couple of 100 yard targets on our way back to the line. (First range I was at that you drive down to set targets. Some here have bicycles others guys bring Quads to set targets.) Back at the line Larry set “Dawn” on the bags, I dry fired a half dozen times and proceeded to shoot a 10 shot under 2 inch group on the piggy. As I became more comfortable with the rifle I started shooting clays and then the pieces of clays. I was like a kid in a candy store!! I then switched to 1903 Springfield and the Finn M39 at the 100 yard targets. All were really eye opening to me. With the M39 I was easily able to shoot Larry’s CBA load into 1 inch.
Today I am waiting patiently for the weather to improve so I can put all the knowledge I was able to get from Larry into practice. I have over 1K of 30XCB cast and lubed with 2500 all ready for warmer temperatures and way less snow. I have a custom action very similar to a “BAT” and barrel being made in 30-06 and 15 twist. I have been bit by the go fast bug....
If you have the chance to visit Larry and shoot some with him, you will be a changed person.
All I can say is “Larry...THANK YOU!!! and I plan to see you again in the fall.

[runfiverun]

the slow twist barrels make it easy.
nobody ever said they didn't.

if you want fast and got the money easy is just 2 phone calls away.
if you got a nice hunting rifle [like your grandpa's old model 70] and want it, put in the effort, it's still there.

just like above.
the 0-6 kept the pressures down and the 308 didn't [for the velocity] and groups blew up.
you'll have that with a powder change too.
think your way around the problem or buy your way around it [shrug]

[35 shooter]

With a little load work up I hit 2450 fps. In my Zastava .308 with IMR. 4350.
1.5" or less at 110 yds. Most groups under an inch with weighed boolits.
23.5" stock bbl.

Loads were made with a lee hand press using the 30xcb boolit, and Ben's Red or BLL lube.

[glockky]

Waco I can’t wait to see your reloader 15 groups. That’s probably my most used powder in 308 with J words.

[waco]

Waco I can’t wait to see your reloader 15 groups. That’s probably my most used powder in 308 with J words.

Stay tuned...........:razz:

[waco]

Larry. You are correct. Our velocities were almost identical with the xcb bullet in the 10 twist .308
Where did you have your rifle zeroed? Mine was zeroed at 100 yards.

[geargnasher]

How many clicks was that for you at 500, Waco? I saw you spinning in a bunch of drop in the video.

Gear

[waco]

From a 100 yard zero it was 25 MOA adjustment up.

[waco]

I was shooting at 1400 feet above sea level at 35 degrees F

[Larry Gibson]

Zeroed 1" high at 100. The Weaver 10x MicroTrac has friction adjustments and appeared by the markings I went up 22.5 moa from the 100 yard zero. Not sure the marks on the turret are true moa. Computer ballistic program says up 24.5 moa from 100 yd zero.

Elevation was about 1200 feet. Temp was 45.

[btroj]

What we have here are two families each going on vacation at the same resort. One family flies in because the resort IS the entire reason for the trip. Nothing matters but the final destination. The other family takes a couple days to drive to the resort and stops along the way to see new things and enjoy some time together.
While each family gets to the resort the WAY they get there is very different. One views the travel as something to be endured and only the resort matters. The other family values the trip as highly as the resort.
Neither is right or wrong, each did what was important to them.

Waco COULD screw a long, slower twist barrel on his rifle and get 2500 fps with accuracy quite easily. Nobody is arguing with that. The key is what would he LEARN by doing so?
Waco prefers to learn to shoot his 20" 10 twist barrel to the maximum he can get out of it. Why? Because the PROCESS is more important than the final result.
Waco wants to LEARN. Learning is an accumulation of personal experiences. He is already learning to cast a better bullet and understand the relationship between alloys, heat treating, and pressure curves.

See Larry, none of disagree that a long, slow twist barrel makes higher velocity with accuracy easier. None of us.

Where we do disagree is on the message we give to the guy with a short barrel in a faster twist. We can either encourage them to try and keep learning or we can discourage them with stories of how much easier it would be with a different barrel.

We want to encourage anyone to get the most they can from what they got. Get out and try different things. Make observations on what worked and what didn't. Learn from it. Grow from it. Let the experience force you to casst the best possible bullets, to load the straightest possible ammo, to really understand what happens when we ignite a charge of powder behind our little lump of lead. Failures will teach you more than successes. Will it take a bunch of time and effort? **** straight it will but what in life that is worth accomplishing is easy?

Stop and smell the roses. Understand that the adventure is not just arriving there, it is getting there. What we learn from our trials and tribulations is far more important than the final result. Encourage others to run what they brung.

Can we at least agree that encouraging others to push the envelope, their personal envelope, is a worthwhile endeavor? I know of more than a few who are looking at doing just that because of what Waco posted. I applaud Waco for posting his video. Who knows how many others will be encouraged to see if they can do more than they thought possible.

Far more will be learned by encouraging people to do more with what they have than by telling them they are handicapped by it. Waco doesn't view his barrel as a handicap, merely something that needs to be tamed and understood. I think he is well on his way.

See Larry, we don't disagree as much as we have different view points. We may take a few days longer to get to the resort but we will have a great time on the way.

[Larry Gibson]

Waco

Keep in mind with the fast twist and velocity (high RPM) and the relatively low BC the 30 XCB has a lot of bullet spindrift. This is especially noticeable at longer range like 500 yards with the longer time of flight. I have notice the affect of the spindrift difference between the various twists at 300 yards given their different RPM and time of flight.

The higher rate of spindrift with the 10" twist at 2260 +/- fps has a noticeable affect on the bullets flight and impact also. The spindrift is not just in a lateral movement because the wind direction and speed is the greatest influencing factor. This is not to be confused with normal wind drift of the bullet. The changes in point of impact both laterally and vertically can also account for discrepancies in elevation changes. It is one of the many variables that must also be considered in LR shooting.

[Forrest r]

FWIW:
Scopes have mechanical clicks/setting that are within reasonable accuracy. The real difference is in the distance between the scope rings. MOA doesn't mean much when 2 identical rifles/scopes/caliber/ammo are setup with 4 1/2"'s between the rings on 1 rifle and the other rifle is setup with 5 1/2"'s between the rings.

Burris is kind enough to put this cart out to be used with their rings/inserts.
https://i.imgur.com/r6CJd3L.png

Burris inserts are in 1/1000th's increments meaning a 20MOA insert ='s 20/1000th's. A side benefit of the chart is anyone can measure the distance between the rings on their firearm and get the true values of their scopes clicks. Along with finding out simple things like how much to either take off a scope base or shim a base to for a desired built in MOA. The chart is also useful to tell you things like how many clicks/how much adjustment you need to either move the crosshairs/dots/ect to the point of impact or how much to adjust/shim the rings or mounts to get the bullets impact and the scope centered (elev & horz) to be the same.

The last rifle I setup a a 308w puma rifle. The bbl was shot out and needed replaced. I tested a couple of bbl's and then got serous. On Larry's advice I bought a 1 in 14 twist (jacketed & cast/equally important to me) and installed/bedded the new bbl. Put a sightron 36x on the rifle with the elevation and horizontal turrets centered in the click values and using a 165gr/2700fps load I centered to point of impact of the bullet horizontally and 2MOA high to the centered scope by removing metal from the scope bases and honing the rings. Then I setup the bases to have 30MOA built into them. Lastly I put -30 inserts in the burris rings to get back to the 100yd/2" high zero.

My scope rings are 4.625" (4 5/8") apart.

[waco]

Larry. I shoot my 338 Lapua out to 1760 yards, one mile, every summer over in the Eastern part of Oregon. I am quit aware of spin drift, Coriolis effect, ect....

[Larry Gibson]

Larry. I shoot my 338 Lapua out to 1760 yards, one mile, every summer over in the Eastern part of Oregon. I am quit aware of spin drift, Coriolis effect, ect....

Waco

No offense meant, this a forum.....a discussion. Things get thrown out that we may know or not know. I do not know what you know. The point I was making, which you may or may not have known, is that bullet spindrift is not much of a concern with high velocity low drag bullets, such as you use in your 338 Lapua, until they get well beyond the ranges we are shooting cast bullets at. However, with slower velocity cast bullets with much lower BCs, especially in fast twist rifles at relative high RPM spindrift is a concern at even the shorter ranges past 100 yards out to the 500 yards we are shooting cast bullets at. You may know that, I may know that, but many others who read these posts may not know that and thus they may learn something from the discussion.

Might I suggest not taking everything said as personal criticism but just as part of the overall discussion so everyone here, including you and I, can benefit from the knowledge gained? Forrest r's recent "FWIW" post is an excellent example; it's good informative information which you may know and I may know so it may not be applicable to us. However, others may not know that information which may be applicable to others wanting to shoot long range with cast bullets. This information is an excellent method to get additional elevation adjustment using whatever scope.

I use a somewhat different method by either using a base with a 20 or 30 degree moa slant or by shimming the rear of the base to achieve the same. I believe you mentioned using a 20 degree moa base(?) earlier or in your video(?) on your M700 .308W. I assume you probably use the same on your Lapua to shoot the longer range mentioned(?). Thus Forrest r's information is not applicable to us but it may be to others. That's what discussion on forums are supposed to foster, an exchange of information so we may learn.

[waco]

Yep. 20 MOA base on both of those rifles.

[runfiverun]

I just want to point out that I am still the greatest key board commando ever,
and I want to thank Forrest for that scope angle chart.

[dverna]

FWIW:
Scopes have mechanical clicks/setting that are within reasonable accuracy. The real difference is in the distance between the scope rings. MOA doesn't mean much when 2 identical rifles/scopes/caliber/ammo are setup with 4 1/2"'s between the rings on 1 rifle and the other rifle is setup with 5 1/2"'s between the rings.

Burris is kind enough to put this cart out to be used with their rings/inserts.
https://i.imgur.com/r6CJd3L.png

Burris inserts are in 1/1000th's increments meaning a 20MOA insert ='s 20/1000th's. A side benefit of the chart is anyone can measure the distance between the rings on their firearm and get the true values of their scopes clicks. Along with finding out simple things like how much to either take off a scope base or shim a base to for a desired built in MOA. The chart is also useful to tell you things like how many clicks/how much adjustment you need to either move the crosshairs/dots/ect to the point of impact or how much to adjust/shim the rings or mounts to get the bullets impact and the scope centered (elev & horz) to be the same.

The last rifle I setup a a 308w puma rifle. The bbl was shot out and needed replaced. I tested a couple of bbl's and then got serous. On Larry's advice I bought a 1 in 14 twist (jacketed & cast/equally important to me) and installed/bedded the new bbl. Put a sightron 36x on the rifle with the elevation and horizontal turrets centered in the click values and using a 165gr/2700fps load I centered to point of impact of the bullet horizontally and 2MOA high to the centered scope by removing metal from the scope bases and honing the rings. Then I setup the bases to have 30MOA built into them. Lastly I put -30 inserts in the burris rings to get back to the 100yd/2" high zero.

My scope rings are 4.625" (4 5/8") apart.

I see how the ring spacing affects the actual displacement of shimming rings. I do not understand how it impacts the amount of displacement dailed in with the turret.