Where are you at? Pt.2

[Rizzo]

Originally Posted by Boaz
...... Do you know this fallen world is not your real home ? Do you know that he knew you before when he placed you in your mothers womb ? .............


I do believe that.
But, I am unsure how you are meaning those questions.
To me you are suggesting that we pre-existed before our maternal birth. That is, existed in the Spiritual realms before material birth.
Also that we have "fallen" from that Spiritual existence.
Given that, it makes sense that Jesus knew us.

It's actually a suggestion that reincarnation is real.
I happen to believe it is BTW.

Could you elaborate a little? Thanks.

[Ickisrulz]

Originally Posted by Boaz
...... Do you know this fallen world is not your real home ? Do you know that he knew you before when he placed you in your mothers womb ? .............


I do believe that.
But, I am unsure how you are meaning those questions.
To me you are suggesting that we pre-existed before our maternal birth. That is, existed in the Spiritual realms before material birth.
Also that we have "fallen" from that Spiritual existence.
Given that, it makes sense that Jesus knew us.

It's actually a suggestion that reincarnation is real.
I happen to believe it is BTW.

Could you elaborate a little? Thanks.

There is absolutely no idea or suggestion of reincarnation in the Bible. Man only dies once and then comes judgement.

God knew "all about us" before we were born. We did not have a relationship with God prior to our conception/birth.

[Rizzo]

There is absolutely no idea or suggestion of reincarnation in the Bible. Man only dies once and then comes judgement.

God knew "all about us" before we were born. We did not have a relationship with God prior to our conception/birth.

Absolutely no idea or suggestion of reincarnation in the Bible?
Here is a couple for you.
You reap what you sow.
If you live by the sword you die by the sword.
Sound familiar?

"Man only dies once and then comes judgement."

Well, that explains reincarnation doesn't it?
Man dies, his Spirit "lives" on and according to the Law of Cause and Effect (Karma) is "judged" and if required his Spirit reincarnates into another human form to work out things that need perfecting.
"Be ye perfect".

Also, wasn't John the Baptist the reincarnated Elijah as Jesus stated?

[Ickisrulz]

Absolutely no idea or suggestion of reincarnation in the Bible?
Here is a couple for you.
You reap what you sow.
If you live by the sword you die by the sword.
Sound familiar?

"Man only dies once and then comes judgement."

Well, that explains reincarnation doesn't it?
Man dies, his Spirit "lives" on and according to the Law of Cause and Effect (Karma) is "judged" and if required his Spirit reincarnates into another human form to work out things that need perfecting.
"Be ye perfect".

Also, wasn't John the Baptist the reincarnated Elijah as Jesus stated?

You are reading your own ideas into Scripture.

Reap what you sow--Gal 6:8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Live by the sword die by the sword--a life characterized with violence usually falls victim to violence. Inherent hazard of the lifestyle.

There are many references to the fate of the wicked in the Bible that clearly shows they do not get another chance through reincarnation. They are destroyed.

John the Baptist and Elijah were two different people, but they had similar roles. John came in the "spirit" of Elijah.

[Rizzo]

You are reading your own ideas into Scripture.

Reap what you sow--Gal 6:8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life.

Live by the sword die by the sword--a life characterized with violence usually falls victim to violence. Inherent hazard of the lifestyle.

There are many references to the fate of the wicked in the Bible that clearly shows they do not get another chance through reincarnation. They are destroyed.

John the Baptist and Elijah were two different people, but they had similar roles. John came in the "spirit" of Elijah.

"You are reading your own ideas into Scripture."

Looks like you are doing that yourself with your replies.

Live by the sword, die by the sword means exactly that, not your generalized view of it.
For example, as sad and disturbing as it is, the child being molested was probably a child molester himself in a past incarnation. It's karma at work there. Karma doesn't always act out in one's current incarnation because of age or other issues but it does catch up to you ultimately.

"John the Baptist and Elijah were two different people, but they had similar roles. John came in the "spirit" of Elijah."

Nope. You almost have it.
The spirit of Elijah reincarnated as John the baptist.
Jesus said:
"For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matthew 11:13-14)

[Rizzo]

Still waiting to read what Boaz has to say on the questions asked in Post #1.

[Ickisrulz]

"You are reading your own ideas into Scripture."

Looks like you are doing that yourself with your replies.


The explanations I provided are pretty standard and universally arrived at by responsible Bible commentators and clergy.

Your method of interpretation is called eisegesis and accounts for your wild claims which are contrary to the Bible's message concerning man and his experience.

[Rizzo]

The explanations I provided are pretty standard and universally arrived at by responsible Bible commentators and clergy.

Your method of interpretation is called eisegesis and accounts for your wild claims which are contrary to the Bible's message concerning man and his experience.

Wow, eisegesis. I had to look it up.

For those wondering.....
eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text.
That and your "wild claims" comment is pretty insulting.

I know that reincarnation is a topic that makes Christians uncomfortable and is not part of their belief system but to me it still falls under the umbrella of theological discussion.
I am not here to stir things up but to read and interact with other person's points of view on the matter.
I did not start the flow of this topic.
Don't be so defensive.

Reincarnation makes sense to me.
It predates Christianity. The early Christians (Gnostics) believed in it.
I believe it was 300 years after Jesus that the belief system was squashed and books burned that mentioned it.
There are so many stories about childhood recollections of past lives that prove to be credible that one can only think that something is going on here. Then there are Bible passages (Elijah/John) that, at least, are suggestive to reincarnation.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

[Ickisrulz]

Wow, eisegesis. I had to look it up.

For those wondering.....
eisegesis occurs when a reader imposes his or her interpretation into and onto the text.
That and your "wild claims" comment is pretty insulting.

I know that reincarnation is a topic that makes Christians uncomfortable and is not part of their belief system but to me it still falls under the umbrella of theological discussion.
I am not here to stir things up but to read and interact with other person's points of view on the matter.
I did not start the flow of this topic.
Don't be so defensive.

Reincarnation makes sense to me.
It predates Christianity. The early Christians (Gnostics) believed in it.
I believe it was 300 years after Jesus that the belief system was squashed and books burned that mentioned it.
There are so many stories about childhood recollections of past lives that prove to be credible that one can only think that something is going on here. Then there are Bible passages (Elijah/John) that, at least, are suggestive to reincarnation.

Anyway, thanks for your input.

You are free to incorporate any ideas you desire into your own personal beliefs, of course. But it is important to realize what is and what is not supported by the Bible. Reincarnation is most certainly not. The Apostles spent much effort to debunk erroneous doctrines--many of these errors came from the Gnostics. As a believer in the inspired Word of God I steer away from Gnostic teachings/beliefs.

[rl69]

Boaz will not enter this sub forum

There are things we will never know there are things we will never understand on this side of the vale. Keep reading keep praying keep listing
I am the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the father but threw me.

[LAH]

Boaz will not enter this sub forum

Only reason I'm here is I suggested a new thread be started. So I'll add this & I'm out of here.

I've wondered at times if my spirit existed in heaven before my body was made. God did tell Jeremiah: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Other than that nothing has stirred me. And most likely The Lord was simply saying He knew what Jeremiah would be & do before he was born. So I'm not too big on reincarnation in the way we normally think of it.

[Rizzo]

Only reason I'm here is I suggested a new thread be started. So I'll add this & I'm out of here.

I've wondered at times if my spirit existed in heaven before my body was made. God did tell Jeremiah: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Other than that nothing has stirred me. And most likely The Lord was simply saying He knew what Jeremiah would be & do before he was born. So I'm not too big on reincarnation in the way we normally think of it.

Actually Boaz directed me to this Theo. Forum.

Or,....are you acting in the "spirit" of Boaz. (grin)
Or,...are you Boaz but have two usernames here?
If so, I don't think that multiple usernames are allowed here.

[Down South]

Originally Posted by Boaz
...... Do you know this fallen world is not your real home ? Do you know that he knew you before when he placed you in your mothers womb ? .............


I do believe that.
But, I am unsure how you are meaning those questions.
To me you are suggesting that we pre-existed before our maternal birth. That is, existed in the Spiritual realms before material birth.
Also that we have "fallen" from that Spiritual existence.
Given that, it makes sense that Jesus knew us.

It's actually a suggestion that reincarnation is real.
I happen to believe it is BTW.

Could you elaborate a little? Thanks.

I don't have the time to go into a lot of detail. But, I'll give you a quick answer. God knew all of us before the foundation of the world. He is Alpha & Omega. He can see the future/end from beginning of creation. We did not exist until we were conceived but God knew us.

[LAH]

You are correct. I suggested a new thread:

I'm sure many will read what you have to say or better still start another thread. Like you, I believe the lost read this.

Boaz said:

I would take in to the theological forum .

As for your comment:

Or,....are you acting in the "spirit" of Boaz. (grin)
Or,...are you Boaz but have two usernames here?
If so, I don't think that multiple usernames are allowed here.

Boaz needs no help from me.

[fatelk]

Live by the sword, die by the sword means exactly that, not your generalized view of it.
For example, as sad and disturbing as it is, the child being molested was probably a child molester himself in a past incarnation. It's karma at work there. Karma doesn't always act out in one's current incarnation because of age or other issues but it does catch up to you ultimately.

I have to say I think Ickisrulz is spot on in post #4. No offense intended, but I think you're mixing a couple religions together, and from a Biblical perspective your ideas are pretty wild. I've never heard of any legitimate theologian who would support what you're saying.

A child is molested because they were a molester in a previous life, and is getting payback? Do you really believe that? Again, no offense intended to you, but that is a seriously offensive statement, to me. Really?

[Rizzo]

[QUOTE=LAH;4290063]You are correct. I suggested a new thread:

I re-read your post in The Chapel and it was a reply to StolzerandSons, not me.
That's how I took it anyway.
Anyway, I see that you are a different user now.
Thanks for the reply.

[Rizzo]

I have to say I think Ickisrulz is spot on in post #4. No offense intended, but I think you're mixing a couple religions together, and from a Biblical perspective your ideas are pretty wild. I've never heard of any legitimate theologian who would support what you're saying.

A child is molested because they were a molester in a previous life, and is getting payback? Do you really believe that? Again, no offense intended to you, but that is a seriously offensive statement, to me. Really?


That is because you do not believe in reincarnation or the Law of Cause and Effect (Karma).
I do, as many do. They are not "pretty wild" ideas.
So it makes sense to me in the child molester example.
You reap what you sow.
No offense to you or anyone else intended.
I'm merely stating "Where I'm at".
That is where I am at.

So, where are you at on the issue of Jesus stating that John the Baptist was Elijah?
Do you see at least a "wild" suggestion of reincarnation there?

[fatelk]

The vast majority of knowledgeable Christians and Biblical scholars would consider your views wild to the point of absurd. That’s a fact.

If that’s where you are at, I can respect that. Personally I’m not there, and never will be because I’m not able to do the mental gymnastics required to twist scripture in that way. Much of the Bible is difficult to really understand, but I think the passages you’re concerned about are pretty straightforward.

I’m not sure what you are wanting here. Those simply are not traditional Christian beliefs, and are so opposed to core Christian principles that it’s something else entirely. It’s your right to believe what you want but you’d probably get a better response talking to Buddhists or Hindus.

No offense intended, it’s just that you’re probably not going to get many converts here.

[fatelk]

Unless of course your point is just to stir things up. The molestation comment pegged my BS meter a bit, makes me suspect some trolling or something. I can’t imagine that anyone would seriously suggest that an innocent child that’s been victimized in that way, somehow deserved it because of sins in a past life?

No, I think this is a bad joke, and now I feel silly for participating.

[Rizzo]

Unless of course your point is just to stir things up. The molestation comment pegged my BS meter a bit, makes me suspect some trolling or something. I can’t imagine that anyone would seriously suggest that an innocent child that’s been victimized in that way, somehow deserved it because of sins in a past life?

No, I think this is a bad joke, and now I feel silly for participating.


Feel silly if you want to.
Stirring things up? Trolling?
No and no.
I am sincere in my beliefs as you are.

To quote myself from post #8:
"I know that reincarnation is a topic that makes Christians uncomfortable and is not part of their belief system but to me it still falls under the umbrella of theological discussion.
I am not here to stir things up but to read and interact with other person's points of view on the matter.
I did not start the flow of this topic.
Don't be so defensive."

As disturbing as it is, the child molester example of Karma is spot on with that belief system.
To repeat. You reap what you sow.

I am not trying to "convert" anyone here.
This is a Theo. discussion forum.
I sincerely asked you about the Jesus/Elijah/John the Baptist issue and you ignored it.
Fine. No problem.

Suggestion:
Don't be so uptight about views that differ from yours.
I am being respectful (with some criticism) of replies about this topic so I would expect the same from others here.
Thanks for your input.

[Ickisrulz]

So, where are you at on the issue of Jesus stating that John the Baptist was Elijah?
Do you see at least a "wild" suggestion of reincarnation there?

Directly from the Bible we see that John came in the spirit of Elijah. John was not literally Elijah and no Jew hearing Jesus say "he (John) himself is Elijah" would have thought Jesus was suggesting Elijah had been reincarnated. Reincarnation is just not an idea in the Bible and neither is Karma in the strictest sense of the word.

"Do not be afraid, Zacharias, for your petition has been heard, and your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you will give him the name John. 14"And you will have joy and gladness, and many will rejoice at his birth. 15"For he will be great in the sight of the Lord, and he will drink no wine or liquor; and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, while yet in his mother’s womb. 16"And he will turn back many of the sons of Israel to the Lord their God. 17"And it is he who will go as a forerunner before Him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers back to the children, and the disobedient to the attitude of the righteous; so as to make ready a people prepared for the Lord," (Luke 1:13-17).

Are you a Seinfeld fan? In the episode "The Fire" Kramer tells a story about driving a city bus while fighting criminals and making all the required stops.

George exclaims, "You're Batman!"
Kramer agrees, "Yeah, I am Batman."

Neither character thought that Kramer was actually the superhero Batman. He was doing things that Batman would have done. Often language uses colloquialisms and therefore cannot always be taken literally.

[fatelk]

Sorry, don’t mean to offend. I’ve just never had a theological discussion with a, uh, whatever religion you are. Not sure, and again no offense intended, but it’s not any form of Christianity I’ve ever heard of. Believe what you want but I can see that further participation on my part is pointless.

[LAH]

[QUOTE=LAH;4290063]You are correct. I suggested a new thread:

I re-read your post in The Chapel and it was a reply to StolzerandSons, not me.
That's how I took it anyway.
Anyway, I see that you are a different user now.
Thanks for the reply.

Again you are correct. It was I who missed the user name & somehow mistook it for you.

[popper]

a suggestion that reincarnation is real.
I happen to believe it is BTW.


As disturbing as it is, the child molester example of Karma is spot on with that belief system.
To repeat. You reap what you sow.

I sincerely asked you about the Jesus/Elijah/John the Baptist issue and you ignored it.
Fine.

Edgar Cayce didn't exactly believe that is true. Even his grandson doesn't agree with him.

Egyptians believed in 'reincarnation' before the Hindu.
The REAL question I have to ask, as you evidently believe in the 'caste' system, are you getting up or down graded?

The second question, is it 'fun' to die? What happens, as you have evidently been through it several (?) times. Enlighten us please.
I ask this in all seriousness, as these are questions YOU should ask yourself about your beliefs. Logical. I get a chuckle from Isimov's (original Star Wars concept) comments, as a humanist who eventually stated he actually was an athiest. As an intelligent biochemist, he didn't believe an ordered unverse could be 'created' by a 'God'. Also his 3 rules of robotics are ****.
The most important reason for Asimov’s Laws not being applied yet is how robots are being used in our real world. You don’t arm a Reaper drone with a Hellfire missile or put a machine gun on a MAARS (Modular Advanced Armed Robotic System) not to cause humans to come to harm. That is the very point!.

[Rizzo]

The REAL question I have to ask, as you evidently believe in the 'caste' system, are you getting up or down graded?

The second question, is it 'fun' to die? What happens, as you have evidently been through it several (?) times. Enlighten us please.
I ask this in all seriousness, as these are questions YOU should ask yourself about your beliefs. Logical.

I "evidently" believe in the caste system? How did you come to that conclusion from what I've written?

Fun to die? ....and I have been through it several times?
Where are you getting this stuff?

Up or downgraded?
I assume you mean what our status is when we reincarnate.
Karma dictates what situation we are born into.
Generally speaking we are reincarnated into an environment that will give us an opportunity to work out what we were lacking when we died.
"Be ye perfect".

[popper]

Generally speaking we are reincarnated into an environment that will give us an opportunity to work out what we were lacking when we died Problem is - you appear to NOT know your past life and it's problems! - Unless you are Shirley M.
Basically a hypothesis, like Christianity - neither are 'theory' (tested hypothesis with documented results). Unfortunately, reincarnation is 'working' to get better before Nirvana, whereas Christianity is definitely NOT by works or deeds as is clearly stated in Scripture. Therefore, Christians cannot logically believe in reincarnation. Unless you incorrectly use the term to mean 'life-after-death'. Egyptians believed in the reincarnate body that needed their 'stuff' for the afterlife. Hindu (caste system of placing value on life per reincarnation ON EARTH. Karma IS the system of reward/punishment or as you state, cause and result. JudeoChristian belief is heaven or hell which are a one time deal. No do-overs. I am trying to point out to you that your belief is not logical even as a hypothesis - as you have no memory of previous life.

[Rizzo]

Problem is - you appear to NOT know your past life and it's problems! - Unless you are Shirley M.
Basically a hypothesis, like Christianity - neither are 'theory' (tested hypothesis with documented results). Unfortunately, reincarnation is 'working' to get better before Nirvana, whereas Christianity is definitely NOT by works or deeds as is clearly stated in Scripture. Therefore, Christians cannot logically believe in reincarnation. Unless you incorrectly use the term to mean 'life-after-death'. Egyptians believed in the reincarnate body that needed their 'stuff' for the afterlife. Hindu (caste system of placing value on life per reincarnation ON EARTH. Karma IS the system of reward/punishment or as you state, cause and result. JudeoChristian belief is heaven or hell which are a one time deal. No do-overs. I am trying to point out to you that your belief is not logical even as a hypothesis - as you have no memory of previous life.

LOL
Your logic is flawed.
Let me help you a little.
Generally speaking you do not remember your past lives.
There is reason for that.
Although there are many cases of documented childhood past life remembrances.
They are pretty interesting to read.

There, you have some topics to research to hone your logical deductions.

[popper]

Your logic is flawed. Uh, no.
Let me help you a little.
Generally speaking you do not remember your past lives. who generally decides that?
There is reason for that. Why?
Although there are many cases of documented childhood past life remembrances. Really?
Your logic is flawed.
1) Logically, if you had a past life you would gain knowledge from it.
2) If you did not gain knowledge from it
a) you are on the merry-go-round, reaching for a brass ring you can only find by "luck'.
b) you are stuck in the movie Groundhog Day. No real purpose or exit.
3) if you gain knowledge from it, your 'position' in life changed, which is the "original' Hindu Caste system. That is why many are sending $ to the girl's protection camps - to get (low Caste) school girls out of forced prostitution.
The Bible (Holy Scripture) is exactly logical, from beginning to end. Yes, some passages leave room for guesses/questions.
As you like to use the word 'Karma' - there are consequences to our beliefs.

[Rizzo]

Your logic is flawed. Uh, no.
Let me help you a little.
Generally speaking you do not remember your past lives. who generally decides that?
There is reason for that. Why?
Although there are many cases of documented childhood past life remembrances. Really?
Your logic is flawed.
1) Logically, if you had a past life you would gain knowledge from it.
2) If you did not gain knowledge from it
a) you are on the merry-go-round, reaching for a brass ring you can only find by "luck'.
b) you are stuck in the movie Groundhog Day. No real purpose or exit.
3) if you gain knowledge from it, your 'position' in life changed, which is the "original' Hindu Caste system. That is why many are sending $ to the girl's protection camps - to get (low Caste) school girls out of forced prostitution.
The Bible (Holy Scripture) is exactly logical, from beginning to end. Yes, some passages leave room for guesses/questions.
As you like to use the word 'Karma' - there are consequences to our beliefs.

You're logic is flawed, my logic is flawed and back and forth we go.
I say your logic is flawed because you insist that one should remember past lives if reincarnation is real.
Is this something you read somewhere or just your logical deduction?

One of God's grand illusions is the screening of one incarnation from another.
Without this partitioning, no actor on the stage of life would be able to cope with his kaleidoscopic identity and its relationships with others, and with his place in the karmic cause and effect events whirling around him...a dizzying conflict of countless incarnations with their interpersonal relationships branching off into their own limitless previous existences and experiences. By wiping clean the memory slate of each new lifetime, there is freshness and a degree of progressive order maintained in the cosmic drama.

Did John the Baptist remember his previous incarnation as Elijah?...No he did not.
Yet, Jesus said he was Elijah.

"For all the prophets and the law have prophesied until John. And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who was to come." (Matthew 11:13-14)

Who do you believe...John or Jesus?

Do an internet search and you will find other reasons why we do not remember.
While you are at it check out "childhood memories of past lives" which I think you will find interesting.

Here is an interesting video about a couple of case of childhood past life remembrances:

https://youtu.be/9w2MCpzE8u0

What's your input on all of the documented cases of past life remembrances?
It does make one go..."hmmmm,..." doesn't it?

[popper]

What's your input on all of the documented cases of past life remembrances?
It does make one go..."hmmmm,..." doesn't it? Nope.
Your reply is a collection of other peoples experiences. I subtly asked you about YOUR experiences, You replied with generalities therefore I presume you have none and PERSONALLY cannot vouch for re-incarnation.
Issac Ismov was a very smart guy, Wrote 3 books about the Bible, historical documentation (I have not read them) but they are claimed to be pretty good. He Wrote a book about Ruth, claimed she was a fictional character as she only appears in Jewish writings. Uh, a farmer that goes to a 'foreign' land, all his family dies but Ruth, she goes home. Uh, nothing in 'foreign' land to write about, so no evidence. His unfortunate basis for declaring himself an atheist. Lost his logic' in his emotions.
I am not trying to convert you to anything (way above my pay grade & authority), hopefully you will logically investigate your beliefs and the Trinity might convict you.
You are person with different beliefs and although I disagree, respect your choice.

[Rizzo]

What's your input on all of the documented cases of past life remembrances?
It does make one go..."hmmmm,..." doesn't it? Nope.
Your reply is a collection of other peoples experiences. I subtly asked you about YOUR experiences, You replied with generalities therefore I presume you have none and PERSONALLY cannot vouch for re-incarnation.
Issac Ismov was a very smart guy, Wrote 3 books about the Bible, historical documentation (I have not read them) but they are claimed to be pretty good. He Wrote a book about Ruth, claimed she was a fictional character as she only appears in Jewish writings. Uh, a farmer that goes to a 'foreign' land, all his family dies but Ruth, she goes home. Uh, nothing in 'foreign' land to write about, so no evidence. His unfortunate basis for declaring himself an atheist. Lost his logic' in his emotions.
I am not trying to convert you to anything (way above my pay grade & authority), hopefully you will logically investigate your beliefs and the Trinity might convict you.
You are person with different beliefs and although I disagree, respect your choice.
No opinion on the documented cases of past life experiences? Just "Nope"?
I guess you are one of those "Don't confuse me with facts!" people.

Of course I do not have any PERSONAL experiences regarding reincarnation. As mentioned, generally we don't remember our past incarnations, for reasons given. It is part of my belief system.
Just like a belief that there is life after death. I assume you also believe that so what is YOUR PERSONAL experience of that? See what I mean?

"Logically investigate my beliefs" ?
How can you say that when, regarding reincarnation, I have given you some examples of documented cases along with some Bible references on the matter. I will also say that I've read a few books on the matter.

"...and the Trinity might convict you."
Convict me of what?

Yes, we appear to have some different beliefs but my feeling is that we both believe much of the same stuff overall, excluding reincarnation of course.
It might surprise you to hear that Jesus is very much part of my life. I have read the Bible cover to cover. There are several passages that are hard to understand especially some of the stuff Jesus said. Even the apostles when hearing them said to themselves basically "What does he mean? What is he talking about?"
There is a lot of belief based on faith, not PERSONAL experience.