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georgerkahn
02-10-2018, 01:33 PM
Local newspapers indicated Remington Arms is in debt over $950,000,000, and may be closing. With 850-950 employees, this would be devastating to the region -- for the employees, their families, and "support" businesses -- ranging from car dealers, to barbers, grocery stores, etc. An article may be read at http://www.localsyr.com/news/report-remington-firearms-950m-in-debt-may-file-for-bankruptcy/963718612
For all people who very well may be affected, perhaps we should include this in our prayers?
geo

swheeler
02-10-2018, 01:39 PM
I hate to see this happen to an American institution but think it was bound to. They continued on a downward spiral for the last two decades, quality just wasn't in their vocabulary any longer.

salpal48
02-10-2018, 01:49 PM
This is The fate Of all Gun manufacturers In the US. The general View Of them are pure Evil. They are Bogged down with lawsuits. Because it is easy money . The bulk of the american Public are totally against Them, All the Old Companies are Out, Colt, Winchester, Remington. Soon the list will be bigger .
it makes No difference what they did In the past. They will all Be Gone

brewer12345
02-10-2018, 03:31 PM
Remington was hovered up by a leveraged buyout shop, saddled with too much debt to carry, and along the way bought Marlin and ruined it. The outcome was pretty predictable years ago. I can't say I give a fig about Remington, but the destruction of Marlin is unforgivable, IMO.

starmac
02-10-2018, 04:28 PM
Remington was hovered up by a leveraged buyout shop, saddled with too much debt to carry, and along the way bought Marlin and ruined it. The outcome was pretty predictable years ago. I can't say I give a fig about Remington, but the destruction of Marlin is unforgivable, IMO.

That is one possibility and way of looking at it.

I doubt Marlin sold out because everything was rosy, it is also possible that remington extended Marlins life.

TXGunNut
02-10-2018, 07:35 PM
Remington was hovered up by a leveraged buyout shop, saddled with too much debt to carry, and along the way bought Marlin and ruined it. The outcome was pretty predictable years ago. I can't say I give a fig about Remington, but the destruction of Marlin is unforgivable, IMO.

I agree but I think both companies were circling the bowl before they were bought out. Maybe the next owners will be interested in building quality firearms.

MUSTANG
02-10-2018, 08:01 PM
Many of the big name Gun Manufacturers such as Colts, Remington, Marlin, etc... had good solid loyal customers. They were bought out by the "Wall Street" types and their bones picked over, and as planned from the start; once they were irrecoverably debt ridden - they are relegated to the business trash bin. On the other hand; there are MANY new and emerging companies manufacturing Firearms and "Parts" for Firearms in the U.S. (Believe it or not, at least a dozen companies within 50 miles of our house doing this). Sometimes called "Creative Destruction", older companies slowly fail for many reasons to provide the services that the consumer wants; others rise to meet that need - which is what is occurring. Along the way the classics we grew up with are lost.

(Still detest the Wall Street types that buy up good sound companies and destroy them to strip the wealth from them and leave them to rot and die).

DocSavage
02-10-2018, 08:11 PM
Freedom group bought Remington,Marlin,Bushmaster,H&R and other firearms companies too numerous to mention IMHO they bit off a lot more than they could chew and now the house of cards is falling down around their ears.

Uncle Jimbo
02-10-2018, 08:21 PM
I don't know what it would take for the employees to buy the company and put it back on track. That would put the future of their jobs in their own hands and insure that Remington will be here in the future. And I think the quality would return.

Hickory
02-10-2018, 08:31 PM
Freedom group bought Remington,Marlin,Bushmaster,H&R and other firearms companies too numerous to mention IMHO they bit off a lot more than they could chew and now the house of cards is falling down around their ears.

Warning! Warning!!
Conspiracy Theory

This is only a thought with a theory.
Where did the billions of dollars go that Obama spent on the stimulus? There was a lot of it that just disappeared.
Was it given to Freedom Group to buy these gun companies up just to put them out of business? Could this be one of Obama's master schemes gone undetected?

MUSTANG
02-10-2018, 11:18 PM
Warning! Warning!!
Conspiracy Theory

This is only a thought with a theory.
Where did the billions of dollars go that Obama spent on the stimulus? There was a lot of it that just disappeared.
Was it given to Freedom Group to buy these gun companies up just to put them out of business? Could this be one of Obama's master schemes gone undetected?

Interesting thought. We know that Congress and Obama spent almost $10 Trillion more than they took in as taxes. Where did it go?

brewer12345
02-11-2018, 12:25 AM
Warning! Warning!!
Conspiracy Theory

This is only a thought with a theory.
Where did the billions of dollars go that Obama spent on the stimulus? There was a lot of it that just disappeared.
Was it given to Freedom Group to buy these gun companies up just to put them out of business? Could this be one of Obama's master schemes gone undetected?

Time to stock up on the tinfoil, I guess.

Rcmaveric
02-11-2018, 04:51 AM
This is The fate Of all Gun manufacturers In the US. The general View Of them are pure Evil. They are Bogged down with lawsuits. Because it is easy money . The bulk of the american Public are totally against Them, All the Old Companies are Out, Colt, Winchester, Remington. Soon the list will be bigger .
it makes No difference what they did In the past. They will all Be Gone

Gun and ammo manufactures and suppliers are protected from frivolous lawsuits. If someone tries to pull a frivolous lawsuit the person doing the suing can end up catching the bill for legal fees. I am not so sure the bulk of our country is against them. Only a select few states breading skiddish carebear type populations. From the news they have been going down hill for a while and i blame their current management. Another company will fill their market.

Three44s
02-11-2018, 10:09 AM
Gun and ammo manufactures and suppliers are protected from frivolous lawsuits. If someone tries to pull a frivolous lawsuit the person doing the suing can end up catching the bill for legal fees. I am not so sure the bulk of our country is against them. Only a select few states breading skiddish carebear type populations. From the news they have been going down hill for a while and i blame their current management. Another company will fill their market.

The big lawsuit against Remington was not eliminated by the Commerce Protection Act.

The thing is when you qualify by eliminating “frivilous lawsuits” you leave the “door” open and I am not pointing fingers at this group or that because we don’t want junk guns floating around, truely unsafe ones. But when a gun discharges when it’s intended to do so, or if someone modifies it and/or then mishandles it .... then the gun manufacturer should not be liable.

But our justice system gravitates towards money .... the so called deep pockets and as such it must find deep pockets to sock it to. And not the whole country ... not even quite half even, but all too much of our citizens are very disconnected from their real roots.

I for one am a huge fan of both Remington and Marlin and dearly hope that they arise from the ashes of their former selves to reatain the greatness they once bestowed!

Three44s

Nines&Twos
02-11-2018, 10:19 AM
Good riddance. For years they’ve produced garbage while other companies have stepped up and made a quality product.

This is a free market capitalist society. Produce a quality product that people are willing to pay for or fall by the wayside. Sentimentality does not make profits. Same goes for Colt.
It is a shame the current companies have soiled their ONCE good name but it’s done. Let them rot and give that market share to a company willing to do things right.

brewer12345
02-11-2018, 10:44 AM
Hmmm, there seems to be a misconception that Remington filing for bankruptcy means they are going away for good. Not likely in this case. What will happen is that they will shuck off a bunch of their debt load and someone else is likely to own the company vs. its current owners. Things may get messy with their operations for a while, but that is about it.

They have made some strange business decisions, like exiting certain sections of the components markets. I have no doubt that that if they decided to start selling Core Lokt bullets again they would find an eager customer base, for example.

scattershot
02-11-2018, 10:49 AM
That’s truly a shame. Say what you will about the company, but Eliphalet Remington started it 1816, and it’s an American institution. Sad to see it end this way.

Texas by God
02-11-2018, 10:50 AM
Time for a Goverment bailout ala GM, Chrysler, American Airlines,etc. Don't hold your breath.
I told them to move to the buisiness friendly South but did they listen? Noooooooo!
America's oldest gunmaker- what a shame. Perhaps Beretta can buy them out- Companies under their wing ( Tikka, Stoeger, and Uberti) seem to be doing ok. Those who cringe at foreign ownership should check themselves when they handle a Browning or Winchester(FN owned).

jmort
02-11-2018, 10:54 AM
“Hmmm, there seems to be a misconception that Remington filing for bankruptcy means they are going away for good. Not likely in this case.”


^^^ this is correct
Chapter 11 Brankruptcy
Company will reorganize
May be broken up
Remington will not disappear
It will be different
A lot of people/creditors will get a proverbial haircut
If there is a pension plan it will get smoked

Texas by God
02-11-2018, 10:55 AM
+1 on the components, brewer12345. I would love to see Remington components come back- especially Powr-Lok varmint bullets.

Boaz
02-11-2018, 11:09 AM
Hate to see the old names disappear but many have . Ithaca, Savage .........

Thumbcocker
02-11-2018, 11:13 AM
How long before the firearms market is saturated? Many gun owners and buyers own multiple guns, more people are urbanized, many gun owners are aging. How long before you reach the point where anyone who really wants a gun has a gun? Also guns tend to last a long time so new guns compete with used guns to some extent. It seems to me that the small concealed carry handguns are keeping the market going and there is a finite number of people who want to concealed carry. Just my thoughts on this.

bbogue1
02-11-2018, 11:15 AM
Filing for bankruptcy generally means they plan to reorganize under the watchful eyes of the court. Their judge will seek the opinions of others before allowing changes. It all depends upon what the parent company will allow Remington to submit to the judge.

This is only part of a cycle. Many companies have begun the decline then reexamined their marketing, refined their product and began the rise to even greater heights only to find they again are not paying attention to market forces which include their target audience. Then after a repeat decline find that "duh"we forgot we need the quality and sales to keep getting a paycheck. Boeing, Enron and Harley Davidson are three examples. Harley is closing their Kansas City plant, a hallmark of modern robot engineering and market analysis this year to stay afloat as the market sales of motorcycles nose dives due to the Obama years of non expansion. Boeing left its roots in Seattle to be more centralized in Chicago. Enron closed it's doors, however the electrical grid (their supply line) filled the gap and customers still have electricity. If there is a viable market new products and new companies will fill the gap. Some will fail as well (Nokia electronics, Indian and Victory motorcycles for instance) and some will succeed. These are though and uncertain economic times in the US which makes investors very wary.

shdwlkr
02-11-2018, 01:30 PM
doc
freedom group is doing what they planned from the very beginning, buy a company take all the assets that can be sold and pocket the profit and then drive the company into the sewer.

brewer12345
02-11-2018, 01:47 PM
How long before the firearms market is saturated? Many gun owners and buyers own multiple guns, more people are urbanized, many gun owners are aging. How long before you reach the point where anyone who really wants a gun has a gun? Also guns tend to last a long time so new guns compete with used guns to some extent. It seems to me that the small concealed carry handguns are keeping the market going and there is a finite number of people who want to concealed carry. Just my thoughts on this.

Quite possibly an issue. At least until the next panic when a change in political party in charge happens. Then the race is on and all these guys will print money for a while.

nagantguy
02-11-2018, 01:48 PM
doc
freedom group is doing what they planned from the very beginning, buy a company take all the assets that can be sold and pocket the profit and then drive the company into the sewer.

Seems to be their MO , I asked my wife who is business /finance /corporate savvy to do a little research and she confirmed my suspicions.

starmac
02-11-2018, 02:04 PM
Seems to be their MO , I asked my wife who is business /finance /corporate savvy to do a little research and she confirmed my suspicions.

Is it customary for a company to build new facilities and but all new machinery, when shutting down is their goal??

zymguy
02-11-2018, 02:13 PM
Seems to be their MO , I asked my wife who is business /finance /corporate savvy to do a little research and she confirmed my suspicions.

id be interested in any more info you could share .

shooter93
02-11-2018, 08:40 PM
I'll be the odd man out again.....there are many reasons for their failure mentioned here and most are true. However a large part of the quality issue is the American public. They cannot make a high quality Model 700 for instance ....pay decent wages and benefits and sell it for 200 bucks. Quality in ANY business costs more. They can keep introducing the cheaper grades of firearms like they do at times but that will catch you. Look at Beretta.....they have purchased several companies....increased the quality but did not make the cheaper.

HangFireW8
02-11-2018, 08:47 PM
Is it customary for a company to build new facilities and but all new machinery, when shutting down is their goal??

When the big company I worked for did it, they found a landlord to "build to suit", rented the new building, and leased all their new machining centers. Five years later, it was an empty building.

rockrat
02-12-2018, 01:07 AM
I guess they could build and buy machinery with a loan, take bankruptcy, make the banks eat the loan, then under the guise of another company, buy the stuff cheaply. Who knows.

rr2241tx
02-12-2018, 06:29 PM
Remington's problems are far more complex than just 'declining quality' which is more a symptom than a cause. Labor costs in NY have hurt them for decades, union retirement contracts have bankrupted or nearly bankrupted all but the most heavily subsidized and profitable manufacturers in the state. Essentially every product line is tied up in union contracts making it necessary to abandon the products upon which their reputation has been built since WWII should they choose to move to a more management friendly state. Corporate extortion lawyers and anti-gun judges added immensely to the cost of operation until corporate raiders, Freedom Group swooped in to pick the carcass. Most of the old line gun manufacturers severely underestimated the shift toward AR-15 rifles and when they should have been opening manufacturing facilities in business friendly states to produce those guns they chose instead to reduce the cost of the lines of goods that they understood. As the demand for walnut and blue steel faded even minimum production values cost too much at the slim profit margins they were able to maintain to support the overhead these manufacturers carried. Colt essentially withdrew from the civilian rifle market when they became the sole source manufacturer for US military M-16 rifles. When they lost the sole source contract there was no civilian customer base to fill the void and the generic AR-15 market was already crowded with manufacturers serving every conceivable price point segment of the market who had decades of experience selling to their market segment. It's sad that venerable old companies are being forced from the market but they will not be mourned long for we are old and our children want the guns they carried when they went to war. Our rifles are the Ballard single shots of the post-boom generations, oddities that their grandparents used.

starmac
02-12-2018, 06:43 PM
Not to mention, they lost the very best record holding firearm salesman of the century.

edp2k
02-13-2018, 12:43 AM
Not to mention, they lost the very best record holding firearm salesman of the century.

Hint: his last name starts with O and no one can find his birth certificate.

725
02-13-2018, 01:11 AM
Out of the ashes, I would like to see H&R come back.

starmac
02-13-2018, 11:04 AM
http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2018/02/13/gunmaker-remington-to-file-for-bankruptcy.html

popper
02-13-2018, 11:20 AM
If you look at the history of arms Co.s, they all went through this. Only the name remains.

Soundguy
02-13-2018, 11:27 AM
I agree but I think both companies were circling the bowl before they were bought out. Maybe the next owners will be interested in building quality firearms.

I have plenty of older marlins, and I must say that they are much better quality-wise than Remlins... Add to that the debacle with the R51...

Hopefully it will just be a debt protection type bankruptcy and not a liquidation... they still have some good shotguns...

My guess is they will dump anything associated with the walker trigger, and other items that caused them grief and get out from under those issues, and focus on stuff that is profitable and mostly problem free...

shdwlkr
02-13-2018, 11:35 AM
rr2241tx

Remington got millions from NYS to stay there in Ilion so they really couldn't pack up and move to another state unless they repaid the state of NY.

salpal48
02-13-2018, 11:50 AM
It Really No longer pays to be in the Rifle manufacturing business on a large scale.. with The cost Of labor and machines. . Most people Do not want to do it . Look @ all the complains why Bother . You can't please everyone There was a time where the were Buyer now sales are way down.
Do like a Winchester Franchise out The name and Be done with It
Customers are Fickle

RogerDat
02-13-2018, 12:05 PM
One has to ask how much of the company "debt" is the new owners borrowing money as the company to pay off the short term loans they used to buy it in the first place. Or if there was an employee pension fund what is it currently invested in?

Reason I ask the second question is local Michigan insurance company was purchased by a larger east coast insurance company. The purchaser immediately converted the fully funded defined benefit employee pension portfolio into one entirely invested in the east coast company stock as they migrated it to a 401k plan. Some fully or mostly vested employees were required by law to get their defined benefit but it took some pushback to make it happen. Buying the company stock is essentially giving the purchasing company the cash in the pension plan portfolio.

Don't know if Remington got A&P treatment but that could explain the new facilities. A&P grocery owned the stores and property that they sold groceries from, they took a hit from Wal-Mart but were still profitable. They were purchased by an "investment" company that then split the company into a real estate holding company and a grocery company that had to lease the stores from the real estate company. Sucked every dime of profit and more out of the grocery sales so that company had a tax loss, took profits from real estate company as investment income. In the end A&P went broke, the real estate was sold off. The "investors" got the proceeds of the sale. So one might want to find out who really owns the new Remington facilities. Leased from self is a good way to loot a company while preventing yourself from getting a hair cut in the bankruptcy.

It would be good if they could restructure, and in the process maybe sell off some assets to more successful firearms oriented companies. As opposed as people that would invest in any business that offered the chance to make a buck through sales or some other process.

Have to agree the market is semi-saturated. But that doesn't mean dried up, it simply means one has to be able to make a profit on a reduced market or grow the market with innovative or new products. Glock didn't invent auto loaders, it made one that even people who owned a pistol already wanted to have. Inline black powder has become a significant market that did not exist when I was a young man.

quail4jake
02-13-2018, 12:06 PM
Out of the ashes shall rise the phoenix. Remington may be pushed into chapter 7 or flounder under a chapter 11 re structuring, either way the sooner the better. It's unrealistic to operate a firearms related business (or any other business) in hostile New York, the sooner the assets and brand names (Remington, Marlin, Parker) can be sold the sooner a conscientious maker can utilize them to bring a re birth of once well made firearms...in a business friendly state and for a lot more money. Look at Savage with A.H.Fox turning a great gun into kmart trash then Galazan resurrected the name (in Connecticut?), well anyway. Winchester's long overdue sale and exodus to FN in South Carolina shows the natural course of what can be done without labor unions, hostile state government and relocating to a place with fewer libtards per acre! Let the sell off begin! Vivat Novo Remington!:popcorn:

Soundguy
02-13-2018, 12:30 PM
bankruptcy may be a way to get rem away from that NY deal.

shdwlkr
02-13-2018, 12:50 PM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5383639/Remington-agrees-bankruptcy-deal-slash-debt.html
remington gets to get rid of $700 million in debt, gets $145 million to keep doors open and gets new owners. They are not leaving NYS but one thing they are going to have to deal with is that since Trump got elected the panic firearms buying is over. Who knows maybe a new conflict in the world will bail them out along with all the other paper firearm companies that exist these days.

bruce drake
02-13-2018, 04:03 PM
http://gunsmagazine.com/1956issues/G0556.pdf
In 1956, the banner question was if Colt would ever make a comeback. They (Remington) will reorganize, sell some stuff off, make a few profitable line acquisitions and move forward with their new headquarters out of the state of NY and leaving Ilion NY for the communists in Albany.

robert12345
02-13-2018, 04:30 PM
The same thing happened to the Hostess Twinkie people.
They were bought out, by the big financial folks, ...who then borrowed hugely on the credit worthiness of the company,,,

Then the financiers put the borrowed cash into their own pockets, and walked way, leaving Hostess bankrupt, with a massive debt.

They call it corporate raiding....

Remington, and Hostess were hit by "raiders."

.
Not the fault of Hostess, ...not the fault of Remington.
.
I rather liked Remington, they ....were a fine company who sold a nice line of very fine rifles a common guy like me could afford.
.
Now Remington s are plastic, mixed with rough ground steel, and you find them for sale at wall Mart....

Soundguy
02-13-2018, 06:43 PM
Speaking of twinkies.. After their selloff to TC? They aren't the same. Not that I'm a big snowball or twinkie water.. But a time ir 2 a year I might have one or the other. The 'new' ones taste completely different. Part of it is the texture of the 'cake' and consistency of the filling, heavier..different less pleasing 'mouthfeel'.

Bookworm
02-16-2018, 10:28 AM
..
..Part of it is the texture of the 'cake' and consistency of the filling, heavier..different less pleasing 'mouthfeel'.

Of one thing I am absolutely certain - I will not get involved in a conversation that contains the word "mouthfeel".:shock:

lefty o
02-16-2018, 02:27 PM
Speaking of twinkies.. After their selloff to TC? They aren't the same. Not that I'm a big snowball or twinkie water.. But a time ir 2 a year I might have one or the other. The 'new' ones taste completely different. Part of it is the texture of the 'cake' and consistency of the filling, heavier..different less pleasing 'mouthfeel'.

thats because the do-gooders in washing made it illegal for them to put the good stuff in the treats, because its "bad for you". just like mcdonalds fries, no where near as good since they were forced to change the grease.

Smoke4320
02-16-2018, 02:40 PM
thats because the do-gooders in washing made it illegal for them to put the good stuff in the treats, because its "bad for you". just like mcdonalds fries, no where near as good since they were forced to change the grease.

but, but, but its for the kids

Soundguy
02-16-2018, 06:54 PM
Of one thing I am absolutely certain - I will not get involved in a conversation that contains the word "mouthfeel".:shock:

Oh it's a great word, you're missing out ;)

Clovis
02-17-2018, 06:50 AM
I hate to see this happen to an American institution but think it was bound to. They continued on a downward spiral for the last two decades, quality just wasn't in their vocabulary any longer.

I have to agree with that. The Remington guns that were available when I was a young man were much better made than what has been made recently and for that reason I have not seriously included Remington in any of my recent gun purchase decisions.

myg30
02-17-2018, 04:50 PM
I’m sure they will prevail. I hate to hear of any company closing it’s doors and hundreds of workers out on the street. To bad there isn’t more industry in that area to keep folks employed if Rem was able to relocate.
I’d support them if there was something I needed and had the funds for it.

Mike

mold maker
02-18-2018, 12:28 PM
My first rifle (22LR 552 BDL) and shotgun (1100 BDL) were Remingtons but that was late 60s and everything has suffered since then. Glad I still have them since I couldn't afford to replace them.
From top of the heap to bankruptcy is a big fall.

megasupermagnum
02-22-2018, 08:37 PM
This is music to my ears. I really hope H&R has a chance to start making single shots again. There is a huge gap for low priced, quality guns that the cheap bolt actions just don't satisfy. I don't like bolt actions anyway. I'd be first in line for at least 10 rifle/handgun barrels and 2-3 shotgun barrels.