Anybody know anything about these things?

[Newtire]

Hi all,213516213517213516213517


I bought this rifle on GunBroker in January 2018 for $800.00. It reminds me of the guns I saw in a museum in Speyer, Germany while vacationing there back in the 1980’s. There were racks of these kinds of rifles standing right next to the aisle where one could touch them. Most of those were vastly more ornate than this one I ended up with. The thing that set them apart was just how deep the rifling grooves were. They all had very deep grooves and we're of a very large bore.

So, this rifle of mine is supposed to be .62 caliber and it has very deep cut 16 groove rifling. The bore appears to be very clean and shiney. The rifle weighs about 18 pounds with a 33” octagon to round barrel. There are 4- tapped holes of approximately ¼” diameter on the bottom side of forend for maybe some sort of palm rest. Written/engraved in script on the top flat is the inscription “E Trischh~necht.a.Schpeiker”. The sights are a rear one with a ⅜” tube for an aperture and a hooded front blade. Rear sight is screw adjustable for both windage and elevation. Set trigger with rear of a normal curved design and the front being a kind of thin wire with a screw adjustment. There is no provision for a ramrod in the heavy figured walnut-looking stock. Has a hooked buttplate with it, the toeplate, the trigger guard, and drilled & tapped strip on bottom of forend being made of brass. The nose cap is made of horn.

Does anyone have an idea of what I have here and/or what kind of ball & patch combination or bullet I may be looking at? Looking down into the bore, I can see that the rifling makes one complete turn in the 33” length of the barrel. This would seem to be a barrel made for a slug rather than a round ball. Light powder charge with a round ball?? I am guessing at this point. I used one of those little battery powered LED light sold by Thill made to be put on a fishing float or a lure maybe. They are about 1-½” long and .150” in diameter and drop right down the barrel of any muzzleloader barrel, so I got a good view of the rifling.

So, anyone have any ideas of what I have and what loads I might use? Sorry about the double picture post.

Thanks in advance,
Calvin

[mazo kid]

At first, I thought maybe a Schuetzen rifle. But they were usually a much smaller caliber. I would say a target rifle for sure, with no ramrod and the palm rest provision. Any other guesses?

[Gtek]

Nothing here but I will say I like it! So not leaning towards a long, fat heavy chunk of pure wrapped in something! I would think the bench might be just a touch past therapy with that butt and a healthy load.

[Chill Wills]

Well? I will give you credit for adventure!
$800 for an unknown ML rifle from an Unknown seller.

Did the seller know anything about the firearm he/she was listing or where it has been?
Any idea how old it might be? I can't see the lock well but it is percussion, right? Cap size or type? Single trigger? The hooked butt says 'offhand target rifle'. The caliber however, depending on twist, suggests dangerous game, or just round ball if it is a slow twist.

Very interesting. I can't wait to find out what it is.

[Newtire]

Now I read in a NMLRA article on how such a gun was used in a shoot where the shooting was done at shorter ranges and they were trying to blow off parts of an eagle target. The heavy ball gave them an advantage. The fast twist allowed them to use lighter charges. Sounds pretty specialized to me.??

[azrednek]

Didn't see it but was told about it. My now deceased father in law liberated a police chief's gun collection during the invasion of Sicily. He described two muzzle loaders that each had a bullet mold to cast what he described as lead gear bullet to fit the rifling. My FIL a captain only kept a Colt Lightning revolver for himself allowing his men to take whatever they wanted.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

Everything, including the rifling, is entirely consistent with being Swiss, but I expect the technology overlapped into Germany and Austria. Neither Google, Google Translate nor Google Maps (which suggests alternative spellings) make sense of anything you found in the description, except for your post in Americanlongrifles. I believe Schpeiker would be the address, and it could be somewhere small. To elude all those places we would be talking really small, but good guns were made that way in those days.

Here is an illustration from WW Greener's "The Gun and its Development". Most are more ornate than yours, and fully stocked, with a ramrod. But from the design point of view yours, if intended for other positions as well as standing, must be considered an improvement. It was surely a target rifle, and the round barrel, short forend and absence of a ramrod would all tend to give better accuracy. While it would make an excellent sporting rifle in some situations, I doubt if it was meant as such. I don't believe there is much hunting of large deer in Switzerland, and although the chamois is very popular, it is small and demands a lot of climbing. Rifles for that purpose are much lighter.

213556

Your rifling looks like it may be chamfered at the muzzle, rather than quite as deep as it might seem at first sight. But I still think it would hold fouling much more than perfectly satisfactory shallower rifling would do. Right from the days of the first wheel-lock rifles in Germany, they sometimes made them that way. Maybe it dates from time when people thought rifles always got rusty inside, but I think this may be a rather late muzzle-loader, dating from a time when they could have known better. Still, it is an extremely nice rifle, and I think $800 was a good price for something which, while not as handy for general use as the ordinary American rifle, is far less common. I bought a shabby but unabused Webley .32 rimfire revolver for $199 from Track of the Wolf recently, and they may both be guns which are a lot more highly valued in their countries of origin.

Your rifling would have a faster twist than round ball needs, although I think it would work better with light loads than many people claim. But a Dr. John Scoffern wrote a description, often reprinted due to its humour, of Swiss riflemen, probably in the 1850s or 60s, when their shooting was considered extraordinary. Apparently they violated conventional beliefs by holding the maximum possible breath till they fired, to gain rigidity like a well stuffed sausage. It mentions the use of a saliva-soaked linen patch laid on the muzzle, to envelop a "picket" which was then inserted. The bullet and powder were rammed very hard, also considered dubious practice, but a boss on the ramrod ensured that it would be done consistently. The charge used was 2½ drams of powder, or 68.35gr. The calibre of the rifle isn't stated, but I would be surprised if it was very different from yours. I am sure it is strong enough not to run into trouble with charges that size or greater, unless it was faster nipple erosion if the hammer lifted.

You should take good care of the nipple, as it is probably a metric thread. But I found something of virtually ¼in. on my Bohemian double rifle. I got modern ¼in. nipples to tighten up very nicely by tapping on the end at every half-turn or so. I will never know if that was tightness, dirt or adjusting a slightly incorrect thread pitch that I overcame. You can, at a pinch, get nipples and threading dies, including oversizes, from Track of the Wolf.

https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Search.aspx?search=oversize

I doubt if Scoffern meant anything quite like the short-lived American picket ball, which had the fault of having almost no bearing surface. I have an Excalibur Publications reprint of a stapled pamphlet by Viscount Bury, in which he illustrates some very bullet-shaped bullet designs by a Lieutenant-Colonel Davidson in 1832. Around 1840 it was adopted by the Edinburgh Rifle Club, discovered on the Continent, where it became very popular, "as a very new thing". It had a slightly longer parallel section than the American picket ball, with one large lube groove, and a rounded edge to the base which would well suit loading in a rifle like yours, without the false muzzle which was often used in scheutzen rifles.

I believe that is the sort of bullet which would make the best of your rifle, and the best could be very good. I think I would measure the distance from all the grooves to the outside of the barrel with a caliper. If it is truly concentric, a simple turned false muzzle bored to bullet diameter would permit precise loading of any bullet you liked.

Only mass-produced cartridge rifles get much coverage on www.swissrifles.com , but that is where you might find people who could tell you more.

Anyway if this bit of advice has been any good, I have been well paid for it. You prodded me into finding a used hardback reprint of Dr. Scoffern's "Projectile weapons of war and explosive compounds" on www.bookfinder.com (my life support system) for £3.50. I don't know if that one makes any mention of Swiss rifles, though.

[Newtire]

Thank you for the very informative response. Reason I bought this rifle in the first place is that I inherited a rifle with some of the same characteristics as this one. It has the same sort of stock and a nice Swiss rear sight ( or so I've been told). It belonged to my grandpa and he had fired it is all I know about the history. It is only .40 caliber with a 1-48" twist and shallow grooved rifling. A machinist instructor of mine showed me how to make a rifling freshening cutter and I managed to get the rust out of the grooves with it. This gun came with a picket bullet mold but I figured it would need to have a false muzzle and specialized starter along with a special ramrod for that to even work. I wound up using a .375" round ball with a patch. The barrel is marked " Remington Cast Steel" on the bottom and was put together by a gunsmith in Monroe, Wisconsin by the name of G. Spangler. We went to the library there and there was an obituary in a newspaper about him saying he was the ". Grand Poobah" or president or something of the Oddfellows and was the president of a local shooting club. The owner of a gunstore there said that he used to get guns in made by him. I shot this rifle myself using up to 40 grains of 3f. Accuracy went around 2" @ 50 yds but that's probably me more than the gun. I am interested in this bullet of which you described. I got a measurement of the land to land diameter but haven't checked it out for uniformity. The groove to groove dimension appears to be right at .677 and the bore is .627". So, this makes the rifling .025".

Once again, I am grateful for the lengthy response and yes, I did get a real good deal I think. Considering the price of a new made repro, not too steep of a price for the real deal.

Thanks again,
Calvin

[oldracer]

Shoot it! If you take it to a local black powder match the other shooters will be bowled over.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

That rifling is deep, but not unhealthily deep, though. The only snag is that I don't think you could make it work with a paper-patched bullet.

Here is Viscount Bury's illustration of the Davidson bullets. When I said they could be the bullets that would make the best of this rifle, I meant among bullets available at the time. A slightly longer bearing surface would be better, but note that you probably can't count on a soft bullet expanding under the impact of pressure, to seal those deep grooves. You need to engrave the rifling by inserting the bullet, and for that it is best for the bearing surface not to be a lot longer. Or if you are having a mould made, have it like some for the cap and ball revolvers, with an aligning band that goes easily into the bore, and then a band which must engrave with the rifling.

213609


I wouldn't want a much longer bullet, but that is more due to recoil than rifling twist. There are now more sophisticated tools for calculating rifling twist, but you don't go far wrong with Greenhill's formula, which says that the rifling twist (measured in calibres) multiplied by the bullet length (also in calibres) shouldn't be over 150. (Pure soft lead is a little more easily stabilised than jacketed or hard alloy, and he said that in practice 200 will often stabilise a bullet, but in practice low velocities are a shade more demanding, so I would look for 150 at most.) If your rifling is really 33in. twist (about 49.5 calibres), you should be safe with a bullet two inches long. But unless the velocity is really low, even that rifle won't soak up that much recoil enough for comfort with that buttplate.

[JBinMN]

Newtire, a Very interesting OP & thanks for sharing the pictures & details!
:)

Also , Thanks! to BIS for the information shared!
:)

Indeed, very interesting!

[Newtire]

I might give it a try with a light charge and a round ball for right now. Looks like it could be an expensive proposition unless I come across a used boolit mould.

[masscaster]

Ballistics in Scotland is correct.
The Wilkinson boolit, produced by Moose Moulds for the .58 Cal 16 groove is very similar to those pictured. I cast the Wilkinson once or twice a year for a man who does several 1000 yard shoots with a similar rifle.
Your bore will need to be slugged to ensure proper fit. I'll try and get a pic for you here in the next day or 2 of a .58, this'll give you an idea of the design.
If Moose doesn't make it, Tom at Accurate Moulds probably will.

Jeff

[Newtire]

Ballistics in Scotland is correct.
The Wilkinson boolit, produced by Moose Moulds for the .58 Cal 16 groove is very similar to those pictured. I cast the Wilkinson once or twice a year for a man who does several 1000 yard shoots with a similar rifle.
Your bore will need to be slugged to ensure proper fit. I'll try and get a pic for you here in the next day or 2 of a .58, this'll give you an idea of the design.
If Moose doesn't make it, Tom at Accurate Moulds probably will.

JeffThank you Jeff. The response on this site is pretty remarkable. Renews my faith people in general as well as making me think about the wealth of information we have here. Looking forward to shooting that rifle with what it was intended to be shot with. I actually just got a deal from Cabelas on a special run of lead sleds. Cashed in my birthday gift certificate, got $20.00 off for signing up for their no cost credit card and 5% veteran discount. $60.00 out the door. That should help with developing loads! I know, I know, WIMP!

[shdwlkr]

Newtire
If you look at BIS picture in post #7 those holes that you see are for a palm support (Palm Rest - A handle, mounted to the underside of the forend of a rifle built for off-hand target shooting. In use, a right-handed person would place the butt to the shoulder, grasp the wrist with the right hand, cock the left elbow to the left hip and by triangulation of his forearm support the palmrest with the palm of his left hand.) http://www.hallowellco.com/palm-rest-2.jpg or today we would call it a monopod, really just a stick that attached to the forearm so you didn't have to hold all the weight of the rifle

[masscaster]

Newtire,
Unfortunately I must have melted down all of these I had for rejects, here's the link to the Moose Moulds page that shows the projectile/design.

http://moosemoulds.wixsite.com/mm2013/wilkinson

Hope this helps
Jeff

[justashooter]

this board is the place to discuss the unusual, for sure.

[Newtire]

Newtire
If you look at BIS picture in post #7 those holes that you see are for a palm support (Palm Rest - A handle, mounted to the underside of the forend of a rifle built for off-hand target shooting. In use, a right-handed person would place the butt to the shoulder, grasp the wrist with the right hand, cock the left elbow to the left hip and by triangulation of his forearm support the palmrest with the palm of his left hand.) http://www.hallowellco.com/palm-rest-2.jpg or today we would call it a monopod, really just a stick that attached to the forearm so you didn't have to hold all the weight of the rifle

My Grandpa's old rifle has one of these also. This one has 4 so you can fit it to different arm lengths I suppose.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't know about different arm lengths. It could be that the second-rearmost one is intended for a palm-rest which is hinged, to let the rifle move under recoil. That appears not to be the kind attached to the rifle I illustrated earlier, and the light recoil of such a heavy rifle probably made it unnecessary. If the rifle is to be used in sitting or lying positions, the forward holes might be for a palm-stop. th stop the hand from sliding forward on the forend.

Those Moosemould bullets look good, if the narrow waist doesn't compress, possibly unevenly.

[Newtire]

I don't know about different arm lengths. It could be that the second-rearmost one is intended for a palm-rest which is hinged, to let the rifle move under recoil. That appears not to be the kind attached to the rifle I illustrated earlier, and the light recoil of such a heavy rifle probably made it unnecessary. If the rifle is to be used in sitting or lying positions, the forward holes might be for a palm-stop. th stop the hand from sliding forward on the forend.

Those Moosemould bullets look good, if the narrow waist doesn't compress, possibly unevenly.

So, is the rearmost part supposed to be the same dimension as the measurement from the top of the lands at a point directly across from one another and the front-pointed part of it supposed to be bore diameter to the bottom of the rifling grooves? Kind of like a T/C Maxi-Ball only with two diameters instead of three like a Maxi. Seems a Maxi-Ball type might be a good way to do that if that's the case.? Just trying to figure it out.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I think the Moosemoulds bullet, and the Davidson ones have only one diameter, and if something similar had two, the engraved one would surely be too short. I'd sooner see even those started with a cylindrical ball starter and plunger. Some of the late scheutzen ones had a bayonet fitting to hold them on the muzzle, and compound levers like a little reloading press.

To work the two-diameter principle with only the ramrod or a hand ball seater, I think you would need the portions of both diameters to be somewhat longer. But there is no reason why they shouldn't be.

[justashooter]

Philip Sharpe included a chapter on Swiss Scheutzen rifles in this classic Complete Guide to Handloading. in that chapter he shows an illustration of this type of rifling associated with muzzle loading Scheutzen rifles from 1840-1850 period. he indicated that a flat based conical ogive "Picket bullet" (google it) was used in oiled linen ticking in 200 metre offhand match shooting with a "door-knob" palm rest (depicted in the text), and that bores were wet then dry swabbed between shots. by 1865 breach-loading designs were taking prominence in the sport, mostly falling blocks in straight walled 40-45 caliber. by 1880 the 38-55, 32-40 (8.15X46r), and 33-40 had taken over. Sharpe, writing in 1937, recommended a duplex of black powder over 5-7 grains of SR 4759 in such cartridge guns, with no need for cleaning between shots when using duplex loads.

perhaps you could have a cherry made for cutting an appropriate mold. I would start with a caliper and figure out minimal land diameter, then cast a "bullet" of any odd shape available in land diameter minus 2X typical patch thickness, drill and thread the "bullet" for a steel bolt for attaching a handle, and try different tickings and lubes by hand for best combination fit with some resistance, and make adjustments from there. wet and dry swabbing between shots will eliminate the variable of fouling build-up, so more interference by patch than would be typical in a muzzle-loading rifle would be "normal", in this case.

in the pic i don't see any drilled holes in the muzzle face adjacent the bore that could be for a false muzzle bullet starter. i suppose a flat faced slip on socket type starter could have been used without guide-pins, though i have never seen one. with a conical "picket" type bullet you need a complimentary bullet starter to get the bullets in correct orientation.

often bullets for such rifles were designed as an interference fit (like Jaeger rifles), actually engraved on the rifling by being driven into the bore with a starter and a rawhide mallet to engrave, then being pushed the rest of the way back to breach with a wooden ram rod. this kind of thinking went out by 1850-60, with the advent of cartridge rifles making breach loading more common and eliminating the need for loading bullet from the muzzle, though muzzle starting remained common in scheutzen matches with cartridge guns into the 20th century. Harry Pope and Schoyen made their bread and butter catering to this sport and practice.

if you use this rifle that way, your bullet should be in diameter between land and groove diameter, soft pure lead, designed to deform into the rifling. Davidson shape with beveled base and minimal bearing would be ideal. I would go closer to land than groove, say groove minus 40% of the difference between land and groove.

there is a good pic of a bullet starter in the link below. if you can have a starter made then you could get a mold made for an interference fit and use this methodology in loading, without ticking.

here is a similar gun with accessories including a "false muzzle" bullet starter machined for orienting the conical, for reference:
http://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-for-sale-online/rifles/antique-rifles-target/rare-picket-bullet-target-rifle-from-milwaukee-wi-with-bullet-mold-and-loading-tools-.cfm?gun_id=100980771

https://www.ebay.com/itm/42-Cal-PICKET-BULLET-MOLD-For-Country-Rifle-/311635931151

[Newtire]

Thanks for the informative posts again you guys. I am going to try a round ball mould with light charges first. I figure I am going to need some thick patches to fill those deep grooves so ordered a .620" mould along with some .025" patches from Jeff Tanner. If I have any success, I may try a Davidson type mould only have the lower band made with a smaller diameter so it can slide in and just touch on the sides. Hoping this will serve as a pilot. I have a .40 caliber Scheutzen type rifle and am borrowing a .410 slug mould. It casts a smooth sided slug that just slides in to it's bore. Am going to give this a try in that rifle with a powder coat I think. I hope I don't disturb the ghost of Mr. Remington by shooting these in his barrel. The conical boolits for my newest rifle (this .62 caliber I posted the picture of) will have to wait a bit.$ can be such a pain in the butt-lack of it that is.

[obssd1958]

I have a Pedersoli 20ga round ball mould, just sitting on the shelf, waiting for someone to use it...
I could bring it to coffee with me on Thursday.......

[Newtire]

I have a Pedersoli 20ga round ball mould, just sitting on the shelf, waiting for someone to use it...
I could bring it to coffee with me on Thursday.......

Well, I'll bring back the 3- moulds I have of yours then. Would be interested to see what size they turn out to be. I'll take you up on that!

[Newtire]

Finally got around to shooting this thing. Learned about how light a trigger can be when it went off as I was trying to feel for the trigger. I was surprised that it shot so well using a charge of only 50 gr. of Black MZ, a .600 Lee ball, and a .022” (washed thickness) pillow ticking patch lubed with coconut oil from the Dollar Store ( all I had with me). I think the lube that the Black MZ makes when you fire it might help. At 40 yards, your legendary one hole group formed with the entire hole about 2” across. I upped the charge to as high as 100 gr. and only thing I noticed was that you better have the stock in the right place above the bicep and not with the top pointy part of the curved but plate poking into your shoulder. Point of impact was about the same.? 70 grains=same thing. So, next trip to the range, I’ll bring along my chrono and check the velocity. I’ll try it at 100 and see how it does also. This is even more fun than shooting my Martini-Henry.

[toot]

now that is killer refiling!!