Sizing and Lubing 250 gr. 44 cal bullet

[Cloudpeak]

I haven't cast for or shot my Ruger 6 1/2 barrell flat top Blackhawk for 20 plus years or so. While I was casting a bunch of 40 bullets for my Springfield 40 cal XD, I got out the old Lyman 429421 4 cavity mold and cast a bunch of bullets. I really like how the Lyman casts. It dropped some really nice bullets.

The WW bullets measure .432 out of the mold. I have a bunch of bullets that I cast and sized and lubed 20 some years ago when I owned a lube/sizer (that I loaned out and never got back). They measure .432 +/- as well. I would prefer to buy the Lee push through sizer and would like to use Lee Liquid Alox to avoid buying another lube/sizer. Can anyone advise which Lee puch through sizer I should buy? They make a .429 and .430.

In case someone advises "slugging" the bore, that would be fine but I don't have any idea on how to do this. I worked up loads for the Ruger years ago using the .432 sized bullets and they worked fine. The way the Lyman seems to be dropping bullets now at .432, I might not even have to size but I do want uniform diameter bullets. I found that with my Lee six cavity mold on the 40 cal that every once in awhile I'd have a little larger bullet from the average. I don't know why. My gut feeling is that the Lee .430 would be the sizing die to use.

Also, can I get away with using Lee Liquid Alox lube on these bullets? I'd rather save money for another gun instead of buying a lube sizer and have been happy with the push through Lee sizer with my 40 cal. bullets.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[felix]

You have answered your own question, Cloudpeak! Do NOT size these boolits. They fit your flattop just fine. You run an accuracy risk by sizing them down. Because you are not a continuous shooter, much like me, you can do well by using the pan lube technique. Use a large batch of lube with average firmness, such as NRA 50-50, by heating the lube on the stove until melted, and a little warmer, but not smoking, and then pour the lube into the pan holding the boolits upright. I use a plastic tray, like one for the family size of lasagna from Walmart, and pour enough lube to cover up to and including the crimp grooves. After quite firm, and not sooner, place the tray into the freezer until the lube is just lukewarm. The lube should have pulled away from the tray sides. Now gently pull the tray away from the slab of lube with the boolits, and place the slab down onto a fat cardboard slice from a sturdy box. Boolits should be upright. Use a pencil to break the boolits through the bottom of the lube and into the cardboard very slightly. Once broken through, the boolits can be pushed through using fingers into a cigar box ready to shoot. ... felix

PS... Ask Lar45 to send you a couple of pounds of his lube mixed with carnauba and alox. Should be excellent for your revolter....

[454PB]

I agree with Felix, but here is how I slug handguns. Use a soft cast bullet (I've used straight wheelweight bullets, but pure lead is better), lightly oil the clean barrel, then use a soft hammer to tap that bullet nose down into the muzzle. Once it's about flush with the muzzle, use a brass rod of 1/4" diameter to drive the slug through the barrel and out the forcing cone. I hold the revolver in my hand by the barrel during this operation, although I've also done it with the gun clamped in a vice, padded with a soft cloth. I feel it's better to hold on to the barrel. I also slug the chamber throats using the same basic method, start the slug from the chamber end of the cylinder. The brass rod I use has a very blunt cone turned on the end, this help keep it centered on the slug.

It's important to have a slug that is slightly over the expected groove diameter. If the slug is too small, it can be bumped up by placing it on a hard surface and whacking it with your hammer a few times.

All that is left is to carefully measure the slugs with a micrometer or accurate vernier caliper.

It sounds like you don't need to do any sizing with the alloy you are using, but that can change if you use a different alloy.

Remember, the chamber throats determine the proper diameter.

[Cayoot]

So do I gather that you guys do NOT recommend using the liquid Alox for this boolit?

Can I ask why (or should I say...why not)? Is it because of the weight of the boolit or the velocity?

Or maybe a combination of both of the above?

I would really like to know this...I was considering Alox for some zippy .45 Colt loads, but haven't done it yet.

[felix]

Liquid alox not recommended, but OK in very well tuned guns (perfect alignment). A revolter less than "perfect" can benefit greatly by having boolits with excessive lube capability. Lube helps keep the boolit intact without gas searing which might occur between the cylinder exit and barrel internals. Note that a revolter is not in perfect alignment after the hammer falls unless the bolt holding the cylinder are both solid as a rock at that moment. Some guns shoot with a sloppy bolt fit, but most don't. ... felix

[Cayoot]

Thanks much Felix!

My education is never ending around here! :-P

I should have known that the easy way was not best. I have been in the habit of running my heavy handgun boolits through my 450 or my star, then applying a second lube via a coat of liquid alox a day or two before loading them. I have been thinking that I could save time by just applying 2 coats of alox....glad that I never got around to trying it.

I think I'll stick to my regular routine of standard lube, then finishing coat of alox. It takes more time, but I've not had a problem with leading yet. :-)

[Cloudpeak]

Thanks for the help, guys. This is one of the most helpful groups I've been on. I appreciate all the time you guys take to help folks out!

Cloudpeak

[drinks]

I apply LBT soft blue in a different way, I use a miniature loaf pan, melt 2 sticks in it, put it on the hotplate set to get it hot but not smoking, place each bullet in the pan on it's base, put in several and watch the lube, it will depress at the bullets, then climb up the bullet.
When it does that, it is hot enough, I use forceps to place the bullets in the pan and to remove them, set them on an aluminum pie plate, after a few minutes, just pop them off and they are ready to load.

[nighthunter]

I've tried the liquid alox on a few occasions and have had no success with it. I've tried 1,2 and 3 coats and all have leaded very badly. I threw away what I had left and now use the FWFL. It is a good lube and quite easy to make.
Nighthunter

[Cloudpeak]

I've tried the liquid alox on a few occasions and have had no success with it. I've tried 1,2 and 3 coats and all have leaded very badly. I threw away what I had left and now use the FWFL. It is a good lube and quite easy to make.
Nighthunter

I've had good luck using liquid Alox on my 40 S&W XD40 using reduced loads. No leading at all. I'd hoped to stay with this on the 44 just cause I've got it and it's pretty easy to use.

Felix: Thanks for the comments on lubing the bullets with the pan method. I'll probably wimp out and try a few with the Alox before I get too carried away. I may not keep the gun and don't want to wrap up too much effort. I figured I'd load up some light loads just to get some shooting in. I can't see the sights on my Ruger as well as I did 30+years ago and don't believe I'll ever hunt with the gun again so I may sell it and buy something else.

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[Cloudpeak]

I found a bunch of my old 44 magnum stuff so polished up the old brass (which was quite tarnished), resized and decapped it today. I found my old powder, primers and a bunch of different bullets. Boy, those 44 cases look pretty big after loading a few thousand rounds of 40 S&W over the last few months.

I have a box of 240 gr. Hornady jacketed hollow points that I used for deer. They measured .430. I found some store bought (I think) gas checked lead that measured 430 and found a bunch of bullets I cast out of the Lyman 429421 mold and resized and lubed (in which ever sizer/luber I used to own). They measured .430 at the base and .432-.433 at the front. The Lyman bullets I cast the other day measured .432 to .432 and have not been sized.

I found an old target with a pretty good group. .88" at 25 yards for 4 shots (the flyer 5th shot took the group size out to 1.32") This load was with the Lyman 429421 bullet in front of 19 grains of Hodgdon H 4227. I imagine I used regular large pistol primers.

Now for the questions. I have a can each of Hodgdon H4227 and H110 and two cans of Hercules 2400. All of these powders are around 30 years old. The powders smell OK and look OK. Any problems with using these old powders? I plan on loading up some 19 grains of 4227 which is a starting load in my old Lyman manual using the magnum primers I have on hand and using the old, lubed and sized bullets I cast years ago. As I said, I used regular primers for the original loads. Does anyone see any problems using the mag primers?

If these loads work out, I'll probably load up some of the new, unsized bullets I cast the other day and I'll try the Alox and see what happens.

Just for the heck of it, here's a pic of my old Ruger and my new XD:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Guns/DSCN0798.jpg

Thanks, Cloudpeak

[Cloudpeak]

Well, I loaded up some 30 year old, 250 gr Keith type bullets from my Lyman 429421 mold and loaded some 30 year old powder & did some shootin. I used 19 grains of H4227 and shot groups at 25 yards. I loaded some 2400 at 17 and 18 grains and these both produced 4-5 inch groups at 25 yards. All were primed with magnum primers.

My old hunting load which was accurate was with a 240 gr. Hornady hollow point and 20 grains of 2400. Perhaps 17 and 18 grain charges are too much for my lead bullets? Would it be safe to load lighter loads of 2400, say 12-15 grains?

I found an old target shot 30 years ago with the same cast bullets and 19 grains of 4227 at 25 yards. 4 shots measured .88" and the (naturally) fifth flyer took the group out to 2.25". The old target was shot in good weather with 30 year younger eyes. The loads I shot the other day were off a picnic table, 26 degrees and with the wind blowing. Not the best conditions.

My next project is to test some un-sized, Alox coated bullets. I'm not going to get too carried away with this project because I'll probably sell the Ruger as I have no plans to hunt anymore. I've kind of gotten into shooting semi-autos and may use the proceeds to buy a Ruger 345 or perhaps a CZ in 40 S&W or 9mm.

Here's the targets. I have no idea why 5 shots hit higher than the second string of 5 shots. I walked to the target after the first 5 shots so evidently changed my grip or sight picture for the second set. I first measured the 4 shot group as 1.32" but that was edge to edge, not center to center like I think groups are supposed to be measured. 1st target is from 30 years ago.

Cloudpeak

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Targets/DSCN0996.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v620/WyoBob/Targets/DSCN0995.jpg

[Char-Gar]

If you want to go to mid-range loads for the 44 Magnum, use Unique or a similiar powder. 8 to 10 grains of unique is where you want to be. Velocity will range from about 850 to 1,100 fps in your pistol with Unique at this level and accuracy should be excellent.

If you want to go even lower to the 750 fps range, 5/Bullseye is a great load.

[Cloudpeak]

Thanks for the info, Chargar. I do have Unique on hand so I might give it a try. I quit using it on my Hornady LNL because it didn't meter well throught the Hornady powder measure.

I'd hoped to be able to burn up the 2400 but I can always give it to one of my pistol club members. The powder was 30 years old but had never been opened. I'd forgotten I had so much reloading stuff around :)

Cloudpeak

[454PB]

I have the same flat top, only with a 10" barrel. If you are serious about selling the gun, you could get enough $$$ for it to buy any currently made Ruger in .44 magnum. However, there is no reason you can't do what you are doing. You have everything on hand to shoot Elmer Keith's classic load.......Lyman 429421, 22 grains of 2400. That load will shoot well in your Flat top, although it's at the high end of the pressure scale. As valuable as that gun is, you might want to limit your loads to mid range.

Of the three powders you mentioned, I would only worry about the 4227. I've been storing powders for over 35 years, and the only ones that ever deteriorated were the IMR's. H-110 is a ball powder that has no known shelf life. This assuming that your powders have been properly stored. I once used up a can of Unique and pistol 6 that my grandfather gave me. The Unique was about 50 years old, and the pistol 6 hadn't been made for 30 years. Both performed perfectly.

I'm presently using up a large lot of CCI primers obtained from a friend ($4 per brick), and they are dated 1974. I've gone through several thousand already, and not one hiccup.

If it puts you mind at ease, get rid of the powder, but I wouldn't be afraid to use it.

[StarMetal]

22 grs of 2400 is at the top end of the load. The new 2400 of today is faster and it's not recommended to use 22 grs of it. There have been write up and discussions how the newer 2400 is faster then the old stuff. Actaully there's no sense in loading max to the hilt loads unless you have a need for them. With that old powder I'd load lower to see how it reacts.

Joe

[Cloudpeak]

You have everything on hand to shoot Elmer Keith's classic load.......Lyman 429421, 22 grains of 2400. That load will shoot well in your Flat top, although it's at the high end of the pressure scale. As valuable as that gun is, you might want to limit your loads to mid range.

Of the three powders you mentioned, I would only worry about the 4227

I did load the "Keith load" years ago when I was working up loads. The best groups were with 20 grains of 2400. The groups with 22 grains of 2400 opened up quite a bit in my Ruger and were not pleasant to shoto.

The 4227 that I have is Hodgdon. I'd forgotten there was also IMR4227. Anyway, the load with 19 grains of H4227 were very comfortable and grouped pretty good.

Thanks for the comments, Cloudpeak

[Cloudpeak]

With that old powder I'd load lower to see how it reacts.
Joe
Joe, I was mainly worried about using too little powder and possibly having a detonation which I've read can happen with some powders and reduced loads. I think I just read about dangers with reduced loads with H110, for instance. I need to remember to write this stuff down!

Cloudpeak

[StarMetal]

Cloud,

2400 doesn't fall under the same category as H110 and WW296. I wouldn't go reducing it a whole hell of alot because that says there's a faster powder that would serve you better. I meant for the new 2400 instead of using 22 grs use something like 20 grs for starters and see how much faster it is.

Joe