Water quench or not

[USMC87]

I am under the impression that any bullets I cast for a semi auto pistol have to be water quenched to harden them so they will not deform or lead up the ramp when feeding? I am going to cast some 9mm hp bullets from a mp mold and need a little guidance. I drop all revolver bullets on a towel and have no problem at all but a local guy planted the seed of doubt in my mind about casting for auto's, Any help is appreciated.

[44MAG#1]

Well, you have been misinformed.

[rancher1913]

as I understand it, water dropping hardness does not last, so unless you are going to shoot all your boolits within a week of their birth you are wasting your time. ymmv

[lotech]

I used to experiment with water hardening for rifle and handgun bullets. I found that for my uses of the bullets it was not necessary. Try both ways and see if there is any difference for your purposes.

[44MAG#1]

as I understand it, water dropping hardness does not last, so unless you are going to shoot all your boolits within a week of their birth you are wasting your time. ymmv

Where did you get that info. Sure they may drop back a little on BHN but it won't be much. If you have an alloy that will WQ to 25 BHN and it drops back 20% you still are as hard as Linotype. Even this will take a very long time to do. If it does.
I have never seen any real data from anyone that actually knows to support that BHN drops any significant amount.
I have bullets that were WQed that are still harder than a brick after several years.

[lightman]

Wheel weight alloy or anything close to it will survive being cycled through an automatic with no problem. I never cared for water quenching mostly because it made it harder to size and lube the bullets. I never felt that it accomplished anything either. You won't hurt anything by trying it just to see. Some swear by it while others like me don't.

[JBinMN]

If you have not read it, this chapter # 3 by Glen Fryxell in his book may help:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Chapter_3_alloySelectionMetallurgy.ht m

Here is a part of it on Heat treatment & Water Quenching:


Heat treating and water quenching. This age hardening of antimony containing alloys can be accelerated at higher temperatures, i.e. heat treating the bullets. This is most commonly done by sizing the bullets first (since lead alloys work soften, and hence sizing would negate a significant portion of the hardness imparted by the heat treating process) then heating them to about 450° F in the oven and quenching by dumping them in cold water. The hardened bullets are then lubed using the same sizing die that was used before (so that no actual sizing takes place). Done in this manner, bullets cast with an alloy containing 5% antimony, 0.5% tin and 0.17% arsenic, which would normally have a Brinnell hardness of a little over 16 (after aging for 6 days), can be hardened to a BHN of over 35 (see Dennis Marshall‘s chapter “Stronger Bullets with Less Alloying“ in “Cast Bullets” published by the NRA). Notice that this alloy is not tremendously different from the common wheelweight. Much the same sort of result can be obtained by casting with a hot mould and water quenching directly (place a towel over the water bucket with a 4“ slot cut in it to contain the splashes). Mould temperature is critical for maximum effective hardness. Bullets water quenched from a “cool” mould (i.e. one from which the bullets were smooth and shiny) were found to be similar to air-cooled bullets. But bullets dropped from a mould that was “hot” (i.e. hot enough that the bullets were frosty over their entire surface) were found to have BHN of over 30 when water quenched. In a separate study, such a mould was found to have temperature of 430° F, very similar to the optimum oven temperature found in the heat treatment study (ca. 450° F). I don’t normally cast quite this hot, but even so, water-quenching WW alloy routinely gives me bullets with a Brinnell hardness of 18. One of the advantages of hardening bullets in this manner, as opposed to using linotype to make them hard, is that they are tougher and not as likely to shear or fragment on impact.

The whole thing, "From Ingot to Target", is a good read & has lots of info for folks. The beginning & Table of Contents is found here:
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

G'Luck! & Semper Fi!
:)
http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell_Book_Contents.htm

[USMC87]

I really appreciate all the help, I don't want to water quench my bullets but just had to ask. Thanks so much for the link JbinMN and Semper fi.

[trapper9260]

I air cool all my and shot them in semi and non semi and have no problems like the op stated. Just make sure you have the alloy where it need to be also the style of the boolit that need to be also for the semi.

[JBinMN]

I really appreciate all the help, I don't want to water quench my bullets but just had to ask. Thanks so much for the link JbinMN and Semper fi.

You are Welcome! Happy to help if/when I can.
:drinks:

BTW, I don't generally water quench handgun boolits. I just drop them on a wet towel using 50/50 COWW/LEAD and the resulting BHN runs about 10-12 IIRC, maybe up to 14. I just can't recall right now. I do let some age as I casted a bunch before Winter set in here, so they may get harder, but I just have not tested any to check. I have WQ some rifle boolits I cast, but I have not tested them as of yet, but I was also trying to make them harder on purpose.

Anyway, once again... G'Luck! & Semper Fi!
:)

[Wayne Smith]

Back when we were on the Amieo(sp) board a member did the research - and tested quenched boolits for over a year. He found no tendency to soften over time. If I remember right he had some that were quite a bit older and also retained their hardness.

[Walter Laich]

I never cared for water quenching mostly because it made it harder to size and lube the bullets.

+1

I PC my bullets so the trip in the oven would remove any hardness I would get from water. Mine work fine this way

[44MAG#1]

Quote Originally Posted by lightman View Post
I never cared for water quenching mostly because it made it harder to size and lube the bullets.
+1

I PC my bullets so the trip in the oven would remove any hardness I would get from water. Mine work fine this way

Harder to size? Spray with Hornady spray case lube.
Remove hardness when heated by PCing?
If it is done correctly they can be hardened when PCed. In a water quench bath.

[fecmech]

I never cared for water quenching mostly because it made it harder to size and lube the bullets.
If you size your bullets the same day as casting them they will be much easier to size. They harden considerably more in 24 hours after WD. If you don't or can't size the same day putting the WD bullets immediately into your freezer or storing outside in the winter will dramatically slow the hardening process and buy you a few days more time to easily size them.

[gwpercle]

Clip on wheel weights + lead 50/50 , 9mm luger gets air cooled , dropped on a dry towel and sized .357 . Has worked perfectly in 4 different 9mm's. They will age harden more after a week.
Hardness is much over rated. Fit of boolit to bore is more important.
Another fact...if you size the "water hardened" boolits you have cold worked the surface....
cold working lead softens the surface back to about where you started and it's harder to size a "hardened " boolit. Water dropping to harden, then sizing is a self defeating exercise in futility.

[44MAG#1]

Clip on wheel weights + lead 50/50 , 9mm luger gets air cooled , dropped on a dry towel and sized .357 . Has worked perfectly in 4 different 9mm's. They will age harden more after a week.
Hardness is much over rated. Fit of boolit to bore is more important.
Another fact...if you size the "water hardened" boolits you have cold worked the surface....
cold working lead softens the surface back to about where you started and it's harder to size a "hardened " boolit. Water dropping to harden, then sizing is a self defeating exercise in futility.
I have heard that work softening deal many times. But most who WQ does so because they don't want a bullet that is easy to deform on game or in the gun.
If you don't care about that don't water quench.

[Yodogsandman]

I only water drop boolits for high pressure pistols like 9mm and 40 S&W. Always just done it for insurance, not any particular need.

Has anyone actually had any ill effects of work softening from sizing? The depth of work softening only goes as deep as the lead that is sized. So, a .360" boolit sized down to .358" is only .001" on each side. The rifling depth is more like .004" on each side. Plenty of hard boolit left to catch and hold the rifling.

[Super Sneaky Steve]

Clip on wheel weights + lead 50/50 , 9mm luger gets air cooled , dropped on a dry towel and sized .357 . Has worked perfectly in 4 different 9mm's. They will age harden more after a week.
Hardness is much over rated. Fit of boolit to bore is more important.
Another fact...if you size the "water hardened" boolits you have cold worked the surface....
cold working lead softens the surface back to about where you started and it's harder to size a "hardened " boolit. Water dropping to harden, then sizing is a self defeating exercise in futility.

I think he only wants hardness on the nose, where it hits the ramp. Sizing with a push through sizer wouldn't touch this area of the boolit.

[plainsman456]

I tried them that way once for a rifle.

made no difference so i quit.

And for my 45 and 40 i just air cool.

[Bzcraig]

50/50 coww/pure air cooled in all my bottom feeders, no problems.

[USMC87]

I cast some 40 cals yesterday and dropped them on a towel, I am going to size and load some when I get time in a few weeks and give them a whirl.

[kungfustyle]

Just throwing this in there. It takes about two weeks for a freshly cast boolit to harden. Water drop and you can shoot them right away. Just my two cents.

[44MAG#1]

Just throwing this in there. It takes about two weeks for a freshly cast boolit to harden. Water drop and you can shoot them right away. Just my two cents.

Not necessarily. The bullets will be slightly harder not much right after WQ. In 48 hours the will be almost as hard as they will get with 72 hours being about Top out hardness level. It they gain much more after 72 hours it isn't much.
I've tested bullets enough over the years to understand hardness levels and hardness rates to know something. Not as much as some but am no dummy to the art, science, hobby, etc or what ever the casting and quenching this is to whomever.

[RED BEAR]

I water quench all rifle and magnum pistol and air dry all other pistols. Very well make no difference it is just the way I started and see no reason to change. Not sure it makes any difference so experiment a little and see what works for you after all they can always be recast.

[afish4570]

[QUOTE=RED BEAR;4276118]I water quench all rifle and magnum pistol and air dry all other pistols. Very well make no difference it is just the way I started and see no reason to change. Not sure it makes any difference
If it does harden great and if it doesn't it does help me in other ways. While casting outside in cool weather it works out by saving me time.....I place a 5 gal can upside down....set a 5 gal. can on top of this with cold water and alittle snow if there is any left in a pile left by snow blower that has not yet melted. This heighth is perfect so that I drop my bullets from the mold into the water while seated on my stool at my small work table with Lee furnace and casting supplies on it. After I am done casting for the day all my bullets are in one place with no wasted motion. Benifit of not dinging and damaging soft bullets dropped from mold, not having to clean off bullets from bench that have been cast Dropping soft bullets on the pile of bullets you just casted doesn't make sense if you don't want to damage your soft bullets st think of the time you save by dropping all the bullets in the cold water and cleaning up after your done.....Food for thought..just giving you my process. afish4570

[454PB]

I've done a lot of experimenting with both water dropping from the mould and heat treating in an oven. I did some long term hardness testing and found my boolits reached full hardness in about 3 to 4 weeks. They stayed at that hardness for about 18 months, then VERY slowly re-softened.

I have a batch of Keith .45 (452424) that I cast from clip on wheel weights in 1983 and water dropped. Back then I didn't have a hardness tester, but today they still measure 18 BHN.

[44MAG#1]

"I have a batch of Keith .45 (452424) that I cast from clip on wheel weights in 1983 and water dropped. Back then I didn't have a hardness tester, but today they still measure 18 BHN."

What was the hardness level at max for them? Don't really know without a hardness tester. Depending on how hot they were when they hit the water is part of it. What if they actually topped out at only 20 or 21 going down to 18 is no big deal. 18 is as hard as some custom cast bullets from some of the casters that charge more per hundred for their bullets than most manufacturers charge for jacketed.

[454PB]

Typically WW alloy tests around 24 BHN when water dropped, so I'm guessing that is the maximum hardness they reached.

[44MAG#1]

"Typically WW alloy tests around 24 BHN when water dropped, so I'm guessing that is the maximum hardness they reached."

While that is typically true. There other influences that can alter that. I have gotten COWW to as high as 29.
But that is with casting as hot as I could without the S-P-R-U-E smearing and dropping quickly into the water. I would say the average caster that cast with a somewhat cooler mold and not taking haste in dropping the bullet may get as low as 20. I don't know about that as I typically cast bullets to WQ as I stated above.
As I stated anytime a WQ bullet will mash a Lino bullet that is hard enough. 18 won't mash a Lino bullet but it is pretty well hard enough too.

[northmn]

WW is not a consistent alloy. Hardening requires the presence of arsenic which may vary from batch to batch. Whether I would mess with it for a 9mm is questionable, but I did use it for rifle bullets. Water quenching is great for as cast bullets but the original gurus like Veral Smith recommended that bullets be sized first then oven quenched. Use the same die to lubricate and apply gas checks afterwards to prevent softening from working.
I liked them because one could get a harder bullet for rifle shooting and got up to 2000 fps with no leading. Another thing that can be done is to stick the bases in water then use a torch to anneal the noses. They worked like Nosler partitions want to on the deer I shot. I only did a few for hunting and sighted in with the in-annealed bullets. What many do is to store their unloaded bullets in a freezer to maintain hardness. WW will overtime harden slightly but loses that from being melted for casting.
I used a 309 sized bullet in my 30-30 and got excellent accuracy. I do not mess with it for my 45 Colt revolver.

DEP

[Cosmic_Charlie]

So if the alloy does not contain antimony, water quenching will do nothing?

[TMenezes]

I always water dropped since I burned my fingers once or twice on boolits I thought we’re cool and turned out not to be. I don’t use wheel weights or chilled shot so don’t think mine have the arsenic required for the hardening. For 90% of my cast loads hardness isn’t an issue one way or the other.

[454PB]

So if the alloy does not contain antimony, water quenching will do nothing?

Yes, it needs antimony to heat treat. Arsenic is not required, but does enhance the effect.

[northmn]

Some casters like to use linotype to get harder bullets or what some call hard cast, which is an alloy of 6% antimony. WW contains about 4%. The advantages of WQ (water quench) bullets were that they could get a hard bullet out of a common lead source, which is getting harder to get. WW are not easy to get in my area anymore. Birdshot contain arsenic because it helps in the roundness aspect and does harden with WQ. "Magnum" fine shot like 8 on down contain a little more antimony and are close to the "hard cast" alloy.
The first time I read about WQ was when they were pushing a double melting pot system, where one contained pure lead and the other the WW alloy. They would cast the base with one drop and the nose with the pure lead drop. The melters had regulated drops. The WW would WQ harden and the lead would not. lead/tin alloys also would work for faster bullets and do not harden with WQ. Tried it for hunting bullets without the dedicated melters and it was a real PITA.
Later they pushed WQ bullets using large flat noses, some were similar to a wad cutter. You see bullets like this used for pistol loads or pistol caliber rifle loads. Often they may be the 300 grain 44 or 45 bullets. Rather blunt. The WQ would be used to prevent any deformation or assist is going through bone. The bullets were designed to cut through the game with their blunt noses and give good penetration. As my 45 Colt loads are not particularly hot I prefer "hard cast" bullets as any mushrooming would be minor and likely not much exceed the bullet diameter. The hard cast should give better penetration in their semi wad cutter configuration.
For smaller bore rifles, I discovered the method of annealing the noses of a softer alloy bullet that ahs been WQ and used that. Probably the biggest advantage to WQ is that the softer alloys are "tougher" and hold together without fragmenting. The aforementioned blunt pistol bullets made out of high antimony content like linotype would fragment on bone. The other advantage is that linotype is lighter weight than bullets with less tin and antimony like WW and does not have the ballistic coefficient of WW. Some target shooters like that and they will penetrate deeper.
Unless I use as cast, I do not make up many WQ bullets. My stint with them was with 30-30 bullets which weighed in at 188 grains. They were chronographed at about 2000 fps. I liked them and saw a Marlin 35 Remington for sale that I really liked and bought it for cast. After looking at what it would cost at the time to buy gas checks, and the mold I did not cast for it as the Remington CoreLoks worked so well and were available for reloading. I still have a bunch of them. I do cast for my 38-55.

DEP

[lightman]

I respectfully disagree about wheel weights not being a consistent alloy. BNN's test show them to be surprisingly consistent. My bullets, cast over the years, do to. Wheel weights are not perfect or exact but I expect that they are as consistent as most of our home brewed mixes are. The only thing is that older weights were of a different alloy. I'm not sure when the alloy changed. I do my smelts in batches of 350-400# thinking that that will help in consistently.

[northmn]

I respectfully disagree about wheel weights not being a consistent alloy. BNN's test show them to be surprisingly consistent. My bullets, cast over the years, do to. Wheel weights are not perfect or exact but I expect that they are as consistent as most of our home brewed mixes are. The only thing is that older weights were of a different alloy. I'm not sure when the alloy changed. I do my smelts in batches of 350-400# thinking that that will help in consistently.
Probably in big batch mixing they are? I had read that they were not consistent? I had a bunch of them but they got used up and the local tire dealers have quite a demand for them so I cannot get them like I used to. Went to birdshot for some casting. One of the changes was that some are zinc which can mess up the works.

DP