Patch lube and other questions

[Fleataxi]

CFI told me to use plain old Olive Oil as patch lube - claimed it would "season bore" of my 50-caliber smokepole.

He bought me a .50 cal .209 in-line as a X-mas gift one year, and we've been shooting BP off and on ever since. We cast round ball, REAL bullet, etc.

I've been using worn-out cotton t-shirt for patch material, cut into square patches and saturated in cheap olive oil. So far so good.

Any questions/comments/ideas?

Fleataxi

[Bullshop]

Yes Sir I do have one question, cheap olive oil?!? Is there really such a thing?
Blessings
BIC/BS

[northmn]

Olive oil is a common mixture with other lube conconctions such as Crisco or Beeswax. As it doesn't burn easily it and peanut oil are popular. Should work used by itself. There are two uses of "lubes" when shooting ML's. Those that shoot matches, like a lubrication that cleans the bore and use such things as spit, Hoopes 9+, antifreeze and other similar wet lubes. These allow more shooting with less fouling and wiping. Hunting loads require a lube that doesn't dry out or rust the bore with the ball seated for any length of time. Essentially hunting lubes keep the patches from burning. Olive oil would be in this category. Whether it seasons the bore, I have never heard. Plain ol Crisco has always worked for me, but there are about half as many lube recipes as there are shooters.

Northmn

[mooman76]

Olive oil should season the bore just like a fry pan but if you use any petrolium based cleaners it will defeat the purpose. I like something a little stronger than worn out T-shirts for patch material but there is nothing wrong with that but then again when my T-shirts are worn out they are worn out. I have used allot of different things for patch and like many things there is no one correct thing. I favor old cotten dress shirts the most. I have used flannel too but it isn't as strong but fine for just shootin for fun.

[missionary5155]

Olive oil works great with alot of items... dry skin, leather,cuts, stock oil... I will have to give it a try down my bore also.

[frontier gander]

209 inline and patched round ball?

[Fleataxi]

FG: Yeah, I can't find a .45 caliber JHP the twist will stabilize properly.

I've tried using different sabots, and JHP bullets in the 185-200gr range (all I can get locally) without much luck.

Would it be worth trying some of my 200gr .451 truncated cone cast boolits in it?

Fleataxi

[frontier gander]

What rifle are you shooting, Powder/ Powder charge/primer? Open sights or scoped?

[405]

fleataxi,
As far as patch lube- the sky is the limit!- a mix of ballistol and water works well for me. For patch you oughta try a little tougher cotton weave like pillow ticking, etc.

Relatively poor accuracy with the sabot'd 45 bullet???.... thought I was the only one who found that. Seems everyone around swears by that combo and shoots 1" groups at a 100yds and running antelope at 250yds with the scoped inlines :mrgreen::mrgreen::roll:

Got the thing because it was high quality but cheap and something new... a curiosity/novelty thing. The new wore off pretty quickly and never could get the accuracy claimed by so many. Quit on it and it hasn't seen the light of day since so maybe I'll have to break it out and try something new with it. Haven't shot one in years and went back to the round ball caplock and flintlock slow twist guns I started with.

Might slug the bore and see what the bore and groove diameters are. Then find a cast grease groove bullet with a flat, robust base (maybe something like a Maxi Ball or even a Lee Real?) that will allow ramming/seating while lightly engraving.... not unlike the obturation theory of the TC Maxi Ball. Lube with beeswax + veg oil or other BP lube (Crisco:mrgreen:), sized to get best fit, use an overpowder wad, seat on some black and see what happens. The twist in most inlines is fairly tight so should be able to stabilize a full diameter bullet of reasonable length/weight. Might have to play around with alloy.... like 20:1 to 40:1. Would be interested in results

[Fleataxi]

FG: CVA Wolf .50 Magnum 1:28 twist 209 in-line.

Scoped (Simmons 3x12x50 AO scope)

Usually use Triple 7 BP substitute.

with a 200gr 45 acp JHP bullet and black plastic sabots they came with (marked 50 -caliber BP) I've tried 60-120 gr of Triple 7, without much difference.

I'm shooting off a bench with a Harris bipod, and even CFI can't shoot groups with it at 100 yards. It's barely on the paper at 50.

With patched round ball, it's shooting POA/POI at 50 and 100 yards. It's 3 inches high at 50 yards.

Any ideas?

I was told the 1:28 twist was too slow to stabilize 200gr sabots.

Fleataxi

[corey012778]

I reports on other forums where people shooting 200gr .40cal xtp will blue mmp sabots with great luck,

maybe other calibers in the 200gr. even in cast boolits

[405]

Fleataxi,
Got me??? You'd think a 28 twist would stabilize a 200 gr. 45 cal bullet pushed to those velocities ?????
After fighting with mine I couldn't make any sense of it. This has been discussed here on Cast Boolits before. I think the discussion and thoughts were pretty much the same.... try some regular full diameter cast bullets in it.

I kept hearing about all the great groups and stunning game killing attributes of the sabot'd pistol bullets out of the inlines. Emphasis on HEARING about. Like pole axing elk at 200-250 yards. OOOHHHKKKK.

At the range, every time someone else was shooting one of the sabot'd pistol bullets in an inline I'd peek over at their target. Hmm... some groups better than others but nothing to write home about and assuredly none in that 1" accrucacy range I kept hearing about and many times the groups were more like large random patterns. Not to say it can't be done but.... can't prove a negative so just have to wonder.

Like I said I haven't messed with it in years but a thought did cross my mind then that maybe it's not the twist rate at all. Maybe it's just the plastic sabot system has some faults or there is some unkown magic method in getting them to shoot anywhere near the hype?

[Underclocked]

405, it isn't hype (the accuracy is there).

[405]

I'm sure it can be. I've seen groups on target pictures, gunwriter articles, videos of the things shooting very well. Just saying for every 20 folks I see at the range trying to shoot the standard plastic sabot'd pistol bullet in the inlines (I imagine the standard twist runs about 28-32).... 19 will shoot patterns, leave and probably go hunting satisfied they are in the "ballpark". Or so that is what they say when leaving. The 1 out of the 20 who shoots decent groups is shooting a relatively light weight pistol bullet into maybe 2-3 inch groups at 100. The gun is scoped and no doubt all set to slay all manner of large game at long range.

Any insight on load development or advice for Fleataxi on how he can get his inline to shoot as accurately as you say it should?

[frontier gander]

drop your powder charge. 120gr T7 is equal to 150gr pyrodex or blackpowder. Its also an over load.

Drop it to 100 and see what happens.

With sabots, its a game on finding the right sabot that shoots accurately. Thats one reason i stick with powerbelts.

Try a 225,275, 223plat,300gr platinum powerbelt with 80gr triple 7 and see what could happen. I suggest you start with the 275gr Aerotip.

[corey012778]

drop your powder charge. 120gr T7 is equal to 150gr pyrodex or blackpowder. Its also an over load.

Drop it to 100 and see what happens.

With sabots, its a game on finding the right sabot that shoots accurately. Thats one reason i stick with powerbelts.

Try a 225,275, 223plat,300gr platinum powerbelt with 80gr triple 7 and see what could happen. I suggest you start with the 275gr Aerotip.

I knew that was coming[smilie=l:

[Fleataxi]

FG: I've already tried everything from 120-60 grains of Triple 7.

BTW: That's a 50 Magnum - it's designed to take a 120 grain load. It kicks like a mule at that load, but CFI wanted to see if the extra velocity would stabilize the bullet.

I just got off the phone with CFI, who suggested the 1:28 twist was too slow to stabilize a 200gr bullet, and I needed to try a heavier full-bore Minnie or REAL bullet. He guessed I'd need a 1:12-1:15 twist to stabilize the 200gr 45acp JHP.

Anyway, it shoots really well with patched ball, and REAL boolits, even if they're a PAIN to load. I'd like to try some 200+grain 50 caliber Minnie balls if someone wants to send me a dozen to try so I don't have to buy a mold if they don't work.

Fleataxi

[725]

T/C 250 gr Shock Wave, no lube (should never lube with a sabot) & 90 to 100 gr propellant. They are all somewhat diferent, but out of my Black Diamond, it's a killer. Clean any plastic residue left out of the barrel after each session. Load firm but without smashing the bullet. Be consistant in all stages of loading. Might help.

[frontier gander]

please read your manual! 150gr magnum load is with pellets! Not loose powder.

[Kuato]

I for one use Ballistol & water mix for patch lube on rb or Bore Butter. As far as sabot, I don't like em. I use LEE R.E.A.L.s for my fast twist guns & they shoot REALLY well. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

I figure, the sabot is another variable to consider for accuracy. Some fellers like blonds, some like redheads.
If I have a slug that I can cast, & it shoots good, thats what I'm gonna use. Besides, the cost of some of them copper coated slugs is ridiculous...
I don't need sub MOA groups out of my smokepole. If I can hit consistent 2" groups or better @ 100 yds, thats good enuff to put meat on the table..

Just my $0.02

[Fleataxi]

FG: No worries, I haven't exceeded 100 grains of loose since CFI's experiment. I'm not into "mule kick" levels of recoil! :eek:

Anyone got some bright ideas for a patchless, easy to load, accurate load for my frontstuffer?

I can shoot patched ball all day, but it's slow to reload, and the accuracy is OK, but not "sniper accurate" and the ball runs out of steam right around 100 yards, so it's not the most effective hunting round.

REAL bullets are a royal PITA in my gun, and have to be practically beaten into the barrel, then again CFI was casting them out of recycled wheel weight instead of dead soft lead.

Fleataxi

[Kuato]

Theres a whole slew of boolits for your 50. As far as a good accurate load, you're the one that has to find the "sweet spot" for your gun given a certain projectile. For example, I have 2 54 cals. Both with the same twist. One of em loves a REAL over 75gr of black, the other likes it over 90grs.

It takes a little while to dial in a smokepole, but its fun & well worth it to me.


Have you tried Maxi ball? they tend to shoot really well too.

[405]

Fleataxi,
Last post then I give!
You are absolutely right about a round ball running out of poop at 100. Depending on what you hunt and where it hits a soft roundball may have a clean kill range of even less than 100. I've dug round balls out of deer shoulders where the ball opened to at least 2X diameter and looked like a pancake.... not even penetrating the blade much less on into the body cavity!

What Kuato said is the way to approach it. Also, in one of my first posts I suggested slugging your bore then maybe sizing a full diameter bullet to correctly fit your bore.... a lightly engraving type. If the normal Lee sizers are all wrong (they are available for about $14 and are .501 or .510) you can call Lee directly and order a sizer of the exact diameter you want. If you get a custom Lee sizer go a couple of thou smaller than best guess from slugging. Then it can always be opened up fairly easily for a true custom fit. IF you go dead soft or pure lead you may have to contend with leading.... and cleaning lead. Not a big problem with an inline because of the removable breech plug and may not be a problem with shot strings of only a shot or two in a hunting rifle. Could even try an alloy of maybe 8-10 BHN. They should obturate OK. One other thing to try with any of the obturating GG or REAL type bullets with a plain base is an overpowder card wad or lubed felt wad or both? They seem to always help protect the base and can help reduce leading. The same holds true with most of the BPCR rifles loaded for best accruacy. fini

[Fleataxi]

405: To be honest, I've never experienced leading in my smokepole, and minimal fouling since I'm using olive oil as a patch lubricant.

I'll try and get CFI's help slugging the bore, and we'll let you know.

Fleataxi

[mooman76]

You need to try pure lead in your bores. It may help allot and then again may not as hard as you are pushing but the Lee REALs were ment to load as pure lead and that is why it is so hard to reload. or start carrying a mallet. Minies could work too but again with the way you are pushing them you will need a minie with a real thick skirt or it won't help because you will blow out the skirt.

[Rattus58]

Fleataxi,
IF you go dead soft or pure lead you may have to contend with leading.... and cleaning lead. Not a big problem with an inline because of the removable breech plug and may not be a problem with shot strings of only a shot or two in a hunting rifle. Could even try an alloy of maybe 8-10 BHN. They should obturate OK. One other thing to try with any of the obturating GG or REAL type bullets with a plain base is an overpowder card wad or lubed felt wad or both? They seem to always help protect the base and can help reduce leading. The same holds true with most of the BPCR rifles loaded for best accruacy. fini

Personally I think that ANYONE who shoots a pure lead conical and even roundballs with heavy loads WITHOUT a card wad is NUTS. THIS IS MY OPINION. Anyone who doesn't keep a brush in their pack is asking for trouble someday when you don't want it.

Aloha... :cool:

[Rattus58]

405: To be honest, I've never experienced leading in my smokepole, and minimal fouling since I'm using olive oil as a patch lubricant.

I'll try and get CFI's help slugging the bore, and we'll let you know.

Fleataxi

Take a once size larger ball and just ram it into the bore, making sure you can get it out again.... a pull cord, screw whatever... and mike it.

Aloha... :cool:

[Underclocked]

After you slug the bore, order some UC Shorts ;) (really!) sized to just a bit over your land to land - from Bull Shop. #2 lube and pure. Try 70 grains to start (with an overpowder wad), then work your way up in small increments to no more than about 90 or so.

Start with a totally clean bore and swab after each shot (damp/dry). Measure each charge carefully and try to use identical loading pressure. Bet you'll be shocked.

[Kuato]

I,d skip the slugging of the bore. PURE lead is more forgiving than an alloy. The soft lead will be easier to ram down the bore & will obturate better. That's what forms the gas seal in a smokepole using a conical. I think you mentioned that the boolits you were using may have been too hard. I've used harder alloys of lead in ML guns & they flat out SUCK. Try pure lead. I may have some LEE reals in .50 made from soft lead. If you like I'll fish em out & send you some to try.

Underclocked suggestion is on the money. For my 50 I started at 55 gr & worked up in 5gr increments firing 3 shots at each new charge. Once the groups were touching, I went up another 5 gr. You'll see your group open up all of a sudden. Back off to the previous charge & THATS your ideal load.

By all means, don't just stick to R.E.A.L.s, try different conicals. Minie (i might have some for .50), Maxi ball, maxi hunter, Great plains, Modern Minie, Improved Minie,Hydra-con, etc........

I've NEVER had an issue with leading in my coalburners. Some like powder wads, some dont. It's personal taste. I lube the boolit. Never had a problem. Lemme know if you want me to get them slugs for ya..

[Maven]

Fleataxi, Underclocked & Kuato have given you sound advice: Try their suggestions. Also, I know you can't beat the price of old T-shirt material, but is it as consistent (thickness) as store bought pillow ticking (comes in various thicknesses) or pocket drill (never tried this, but it may also come in various thicknesses)? As for conical CB's cast of pure Pb, all are NOT alike with respect to diameter/how well they fit your bore and accuracy. E.g., I've been testing 2 Lee REAL's, a Lyman Maxi-Ball and a T/C Maxi-Ball in my [new] .50cal. Knight in-line and have found significant differences in how they fit my bore, accuracy and in the case of the Maxi's, weight: The Lyman was larger & heavier, harder to load, but no more accurate than the T/C. The smaller REAL (~250grs.), with less bearing surface, wasn't a good performer, but the 330gr. one was better, though not quite as good as the Maxis. Btw, I used a cardboard wad under all conicals and 70grs. & 80grs. of Pyrodex RS (loose) with Win. #209 primers and #11 CCI percussion caps*. Although I used Wonder Lube, I don't it had much effect on accuracy as I swabbed the bore after each shot and again after seating the conicals, but prior to priming. Lastly, .490" RB's and .010" and .014" patches (pillow ticking & commercial, respectively) were surprisingly accurate @ 50 yds. with 50grs. of Pyro. RS.


*I need to experiment with the primers to see whether they affect point of impact and accuracy.

[Fleataxi]

Kuato: Thanks, send whatever you want - PM me for my mailing address.

Fleataxi