Starting casting 148 gr WC and 158 SWC for possible self defense use.

[ell198679]

I bought the Lee WC 148 gr mold, and the Lee 158gr SWC mold. I live in California and they just passed the online ammo ban. Wanted to get some Buffalo Bore SWC HP +P but was too late. Now you need to go through an FFL in Kali. Anyways, I casted about 110 of them so far. I dropped one of my 158 grain bullets, from about waist height. Then looked at it and realized. That they were slanted at a slight angle. Apparently, the lead is so soft that it can deform from that height. I was curious should these bullets be cast with a better alloy. And or? Perhaps, I should water quench them. What is best for self defense, hard lead or soft lead? Right now I have them loaded over, 3.2 or 3.0 grains of Green Dot. Will work my way up. I know hard lead will penetrate much better. But is that really an issue with self defense, as it is with hunting?

[brewer12345]

With a modest pressure, smaller caliber like 38 special, I think you really are depending on penetration much more so than expansion. That said, I know that really hard wadcutters like the Berry's plated will go right through a person with a full charge of powder under them. That means energy that is not imparted to the target. So I would not want to cast a self defense wadcutter too hard. Size it properly and lube it well, but other than that it does not need to be real hard.

[Forrest r]

Power pistol gunpowder is your friend with 38spl p+ loads/buffalo bore loads.

Prian Pearce did an article in the #276 handloader magazine (feb-mac 2012 issue) using a ruger lcr with a 1 /78" bbl. He was trying to duplicate the buffalo bore 1000fps load. He tested the buffalo bore ammo in the lcr he was using and got 999fps with it.

He used rimrock 158gr hp and 6.3gr of powder pistol and got 1004fps in that same lcr. Surprisingly enough another high energy powder, titegroup did extremely well in his tests.

You need to ditch the greendot if you want p+ loads with any horse power. Awhile back I did some 38spl p+ load testing in a 2" bbl's charter arms undercover. I see so many threads using different powders/bullet combo's for 38p+ loads I decided to do some testing but in a different way. I used 5 different common powders and did max/hot loads with them using 10 different bullets. I loaded 10 rounds of each powder/bullet combo and shot them over a chronograph. The end result was I got 10 10-shot stings or 100 shots recorded per power. I was more interested in the powder then the bullets. All bullets tested were either hp's or hbwc's turned backwards & 1 of the 10 bullets was a jacketed hp/home swaged. At the end of the day I ended up with:

bullseye averaged 801fps for the 100shot/10 different bullet string
unique averaged 833fps for the 100/shot/10 different bullet string
be-86 averaged 845fps for the 100/shot/10 different bullet string
2400 averaged 882fps for the 100/shot/10 different bullet string
power pistol averaged 887fps for the 100/shot/10 different bullet string

I upped the pp load to 6.3gr and retested and was getting +/- 960fps with that ca undercover.

Something else to consider, not all hp's are =. Some of the hp's I make for the 38spl/357's.
https://i.imgur.com/vSAh3bs.jpg

As a general rule I start testing a hp's alloy by taking the bhn and multiplying it by 100 or simply put 8bhn x 100 ='s 800fps, 10bhn x100 ='s 1000fps, etc. While the differences in the hp shape/size/depth play huge roles in how the hp performs. You have to start testing somewhere & I've always started with the bhn x 100 to find a starting load to test.

The depth and how large the hp is will affect how the hp performs. A small shallow hp doesn't do very well at slow speeds. Same bullet, 3 different hp's for use with anything from slow (around 800fps) to fast (1200fps+).
https://i.imgur.com/MGkzk5b.jpg

45acp with again large hp's for 950fps to 1000fps+
https://i.imgur.com/3rZuqLF.jpg

Short bbl'd 9mm (3.3") need a large hp, a 125gr hp doing +/- 1050fps.
https://i.imgur.com/ZxGtzF4.jpg

As you can see there's a theme going on, doesn't matter the caliber, large soft hp's and +/- 1000fps.

At the end of the day your wc bullet is an excellent option and shouldn't be overlooked. In the lcr/pearce article he used a lyman 358429 173gr bullet with 5.9gr of power pistol and got 950fps with that load/1 7/8" bbl's lcr combo. That's impressive!!! HP's aren't the only game in town. Also in that pearce article he used aa#2, aa#5,universal,longshot,titegroup,power pistol powders. None of the loads exceeded the max pressure of 20,000psi/38spl p+ saami standard. While there wasn't a lot of different powders used in that test, titegroup outperformed everything but power pistol.

Power pistol really shines in the older low pressure cartridges like the 38spl/44sp/45acp/45lc. Good luck with your testing. I'm sure others will chime in with their 38spl p+ experiences.

[Petrol & Powder]

You've received some excellent advice from Forrest r and to Forrest r; thank you for that excellent write-up.

I've spent a lot of time with the 38 Special and conducted some of my own testing years ago.
You didn't mention the gun involved and that does have some affect on the path you take. The 38 Special does its best work with 150-160 grain projectiles and that's not just accuracy. In order to achieve the needed penetration at the lower velocities (read that as shorter barrels) you need to be close to the 160 grain mark and let the mass do the work. Along those lines, the 158 SWC with its slightly narrower nose may help with that critical penetration.
When dealing with SD and the 38 Special - Penetration is the primary criteria. The bullet must reach deep enough to damage something enough to stop the fight. Expansion is just the icing on the cake and too much early expansion will only serve to limit penetration.

I'm still not convinced that the soft lead, hollow point 158 gr SWC, driven at +P velocity [AKA the FBI Load] can be improved upon in a short barreled 38 Special. However, since you're in Kalifornia and dealing with that absurdity, I understand your quest.

Another member of this forum, Char-Gar, uses a type III wadcutter in a snubnose. That extended WC provides a little more weight to the projectile and the biggest possible flat point for the caliber. I don't recall what alloy he uses but perhaps he'll chime in.

Of the OP's two choices (Lee 148 gr WC and 158 gr SWC) I would opt for the heavier 158 SWC and try to maximize penetration if I was using a short barreled revolver. Now, if we're talking about a 4" barrel, I think Forrest r has given you an excellent starting point.
With a 4" barrel - Get the 158 gr SWC as close to 1000 fps as you can without exceeding acceptable pressure limits. (chances are you will NOT get to 1000 fps) Then find the alloy/hollow point combination that gives you the desired depth of penetration. Whatever expansion you get or don't get - accept it. I think at or close to 1000 fps with a 158 gr SWC, you're going to need some expansion to limit penetration. You can adjust that with the size of the hollowpoint or the alloy. I would err on the side of the softest alloy possible rather than rely on the hollowpoint to limit that penetration.

[brewer12345]

Forrest R, was Longshot one of the powders you tried? I would be tempted to fool around with it if I were trying to get up to redline.

OP, we also do not know what your CC weapon is. In a light weight snub you might not want to got for the max possible velocity in the name of accuracy and controllability. OTOH, if we are talking a service revolver with a 4 or better inch barrel, go for the biggest fireball you can get, heh.

[ell198679]

Wow thanks so much for your write ups. Excellent, information from all of you. I have a big old jug of green dot. However, I do have 2400 powder what's a good grain count? To put under the 158 gr SWC or 148 WC in .38 Spcl +P load. Anyways,I am using a snubnose Charter Arms, with a two inch barrel. https://rimrockbullets.com/xcart/g-ch-38-357-158-gr-swc-hp-per-100-in-a-plastic-ammo-box.html Will order some. Cool that I can probably load the ammo. That I couldn't buy. I was thinking that mixing some standard loads with a +P might not be a bad idea. In a SD scenario. Maybe, have the second round or first round be +P. But that's just an idea.

[Petrol & Powder]

OK, we're dealing with a Charter Arms Undercover or Undercover Lite.

Those guns are rated for +P but I wouldn't make a habit of shooting +P rounds from those guns. The guns can take it but the shooter will find the experience unpleasant.


Green Dot is a shotgun powder but like many shotgun powders, it works well in some handgun cartridges.
I'm not sure Green Dot would be my first choice for hot 38 Special loads but I can't honestly say that it would be my last choice either.

Be careful, advance slowly and approach you max carefully.

I think in a 2" barrel you'll find the best combination with the 158 gr SWC and somewhere in the low +P range.

Good Luck

[Beerd]

A Mr. Ed Harris had something to say on this subject:
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/Revisiting%20The%20Double-End%20Wadcutter%20and%20the%20FBI%20Load.htm
..

[eric123]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread...On a side note, a lawyer friend of mine said he would recommend factory ammo for self defense. He stated that prosecutors and judges don't look favorably upon handloaded ammunition used in self defense as it makes it appear that the user may be looking for trouble...I apologize for the off topic post...

[jmort]

Wrong ^^^

[2wheelDuke]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread...On a side note, a lawyer friend of mine said he would recommend factory ammo for self defense. He stated that prosecutors and judges don't look favorably upon handloaded ammunition used in self defense as it makes it appear that the user may be looking for trouble...I apologize for the off topic post...

I disagree wholeheartedly on that topic. I took interested in Mr. Ayoob's writings when I was a police cadet 12 years ago. That's on topic I just can't agree on.

A righteous shoot is no less so because of handloads. That is of course barring any sort of crazy dum-dum style modifications.

I'm sure they'd go for it in a civil trial after the fact, but I haven't seen any actual case law proving Mr. Ayoob's point there, only urban legend.

[Motor]

You can say "wrong" but they will look for any reason to villainize you. I always carry with a factory loaded self defense ammo. It just takes away another angle they can use against you.

So the shooting is ruled justified but you loose everything you own in the civil case because the jury doesn't understand reloading. Or worse yet is convinced by the lawyer you did something special to those bullets and don't know any better. No thanks. I'll stick with factory ammo for self defense.

OP. If you can get some Linotype it alloys very well with your lead and will add as much hardness as you want. It's really tough without a hardness tester though because not all Linotype is the same.

I use that Lee 158gr SWC. At 12BHN and powder coated there's not much it can't handle. At 12BHN and lubed it should be able to handle anything a 38spl can dish out.

Motor

[jmort]

Wrong^^^

[Bigslug]

I am thoroughly enjoying this thread...On a side note, a lawyer friend of mine said he would recommend factory ammo for self defense. . .

We're about to experience an interesting twist in that argument here in California, what with the increasing complications that will no doubt add to the expense of procuring factory rounds. I don't think it would be complicated at all for your lawyer to say "My client simply defended himself with a cast blob of metal, when he could have gone out of his way to purchase and import into the Republic of California, at great expense, ammunition appropriately named "Golden Saber" or "Talon"".

I would probably choose the 158 for two reasons:

1. It will penetrate MORE. Insufficient penetration with .38 at snubby speeds is a known problem. Fashionable paranoia to the contrary, I'd rather have two holes than one.

2. In the event that things do progress to needing a reload, a little taper to the bullet aids the process.

[brewer12345]

I would not turn my nose up at a DEWC in a snub so long as the load has a stiff charge of powder and good velocity. You cannot get a bigger meplat in the caliber and the likelihood that a 38 special load will reliably mushroom isn't all that high.

[fcvan]

For over 30 years I have heard the argument over using re-loads for defense rounds. For over 30 years I have been waiting to read about this issue ever having actually been used in a court of law. My reloads are generally just below power and performance of factory ammo. My reloads are what I practice with, am proficient with, and qualify with. I just wouldn't want to shoot a bad guy with the ones coated in 'Barbie' pink.

When I first started working in law enforcement, my agency trained with wadcutters but issued the FBI load as duty rounds. It was the ammo factories that lobbied 'train with duty rounds' because they made more money selling duty rounds vs training rounds. I know, I was the training manager for several years and had to budget for 1000 officers, sergeants, and lieutenants to quarterly qualify.

An old post here showed a video of a new range (1937?) LASO had opened. The range staff mined the berm, cast the boolits, and loaded the practice/duty ammo for their staff. My how times have changed.

[Forrest r]

Forrest R, was Longshot one of the powders you tried? I would be tempted to fool around with it if I were trying to get up to redline.

OP, we also do not know what your CC weapon is. In a light weight snub you might not want to got for the max possible velocity in the name of accuracy and controllability. OTOH, if we are talking a service revolver with a 4 or better inch barrel, go for the biggest fireball you can get, heh.

No I didn't try longshot. Brian Pearce did in the #276 article he wrote. It didn't do very well with titegroup out performing it.

[Forrest r]

There's nothing wrong with 2400 for p+ loads in a snub nosed revolver. Seeing how you have it on hand I'd start with 2400 and use it as a benchmark. I found of the powders I've tested in 38spl p+ loads, power pistol is the only powder that would out perform 2400.

[Petrol & Powder]

There's nothing wrong with 2400 for p+ loads in a snub nosed revolver. Seeing how you have it on hand I'd start with 2400 and use it as a benchmark. I found of the powders I've tested in 38spl p+ loads, power pistol is the only powder that would out perform 2400.

You're correct and I went back and edited my comment in post #7 related to 2400
I was thinking WW296 but wrote 2400 for some unknown reason.

[USSR]

I'm still not convinced that the soft lead, hollow point 158 gr SWC, driven at +P velocity [AKA the FBI Load] can be improved upon in a short barreled 38 Special.

And well you shouldn't be. The middle bullet and the right bullet both came out of a 2.5" snubbie. The middle bullet at 840fps, and the right bullet at 945fps. Both bullets consist of the same soft lead alloy. Hard to improve upon the FBI Load.

Don

[ell198679]

I want to say that the reloads wouldn't matter to a jury. But look what happened in San Francisco with the illegal immigrant that shot that girl. However, you could easily say that your ammo, is no more deadly than factory SD ammo. You would probably need a ballistics expert to testify. And hope the jury is smart enough to see through it, tough call. Anyways, what is a good load amount for 2400 powder. I ordered some of those HP 158 SWC off that site. Used for the Buffalo Bore loads. But was curious about what a good load of 2400 would be. If not maybe, ill buy some power pistol. If I go +P I want the mildest +P possible. Found this off another forum, for 155 gr bullet. "I've got the 4th Edition Lyman Cast in my hand and see one load listed for 38sp and 2400.
Lyman #358156 Starts at 7.5gr (760fps) and max is 8.3gr (867fps). It does list it as a +P at 8.8gr for 953fps and surprisingly the pressure is not bad." If I use that I am going to start @ 7.5 look for over pressure.

5.0 gr of Unique may be the way to go. After, reading through the castboolits forum.


On this website http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38%20Special&Weight=All&type=Handgun it has -----"158gr LSWC 7.5 gr 2400 990 fps 1.42" Fed 100 Alliant
Suggested starting load: 6.8 gr
Pressure: 15,500 ." So now I am a little confused. Different barrel lengths? I guess.

[USSR]

5.0 gr of Unique may be the way to go.

5.4 grains of Unique is the way to go. Better yet, 7.0 grains of HS-6.

Don

[brewer12345]

I went with 5 grains of Unique for this bullet in a lightweight snub. Snappy, but controllable. I could have kept bumping the load up, but I value controllability and accuracy more than a little extra oomph.

[stubshaft]

And well you shouldn't be. The middle bullet and the right bullet both came out of a 2.5" snubbie. The middle bullet at 840fps, and the right bullet at 945fps. Both bullets consist of the same soft lead alloy. Hard to improve upon the FBI Load.

Don

Gotta love that penta point. It consistently expands at 800 fps with 9 BHN lead for me. I usually shoot it in my Lipsey 44 special and have a MP mold coming in for a 140 gr penta point hi-tek (no loob grooves just a crimp groove) boolit for my 38 specials.

[ell198679]

"5.4 grains of Unique is the way to go. Better yet, 7.0 grains of HS-6.

Don"


I have some HS-6 Still bought a pound of Unique I doubt it will be a waste of money. Unique is a very useful powder. One thing I did read up on was the flash coming out the muzzle. Ruining your night vision. However, it tends to be a dull orange. With the brightest part being centered directly in front of the muzzle. . In most of my guns.. If I remember correctly. That probably wouldn't harm night vision anymore than looking at a streetlight, lighter, or a light in the distance. However, HS-6 supposedly, doesn't have much flash. Because its a fast burning powder. Buffalo Bore's rounds have a flash suppressant built into the powder. Now in a .357 magnum load in a snub than yes.. It could be an issue. What do you guys think? Big problem, I doubt it will really matter. If it's pitch black you can't see your sights anyways. With out them being radioactive. And the flash happens in a fraction of a second. Any damage to night vision is probably minimal.

[USSR]

ell198679,

Of all the things I would worry about in a self-defense situation, the amount of flash doesn't even register.

Don

[Grmps]

Wrong^^^

Please elaborate on your answer and edify us as to why it is wrong. Where did you come up with the conclusion/ how did you determine that the statement is wrong? Links/resources would be helpfull.

Just saying wrong does none of us any good or give us any reason to believe what you are saying is true.

Forrest r did a very good job responding to the OP's question with information, the testing he did supporting his statement and some pictures

[Grmps]

Has some loads for your boolit weights
158grn for lead boolits; 4.6 grn unique for 38 spcl and 6.4 grn unique for 357 has been a common load for a long time

I'd start at 4.5 grn unique and work your way up to see how it works in your gun before jumping into 5.4grn unique
4.5 is the max load recommended by Lyman CB 4th addition

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38%20Special%20+P&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source=
Has some loads for your boolit weights

[Gohon]

Please elaborate on your answer and edify us as to why it is wrong. Where did you come up with the conclusion/ how did you determine that the statement is wrong? Links/resources would be helpfull.

Even Massad Ayoob never could come up with any cite to prove his comment. Actually Ayoob never really said there was a case of that happening, what he did say was there was a possibility some lawyer would use the home reloads as a charge. But we all know how the internet is all truth don't we. Maybe you can cite a links/resources to show the myth is true. I certainly would be interested in reading it...

It is long but here is what Ayoob said that got the myth started...

"Anti-gun types have attacked our ammo as well as our firearms since long before I came on the scene. It happens in the press, it happens in State Houses, and yes, it also happens in the courts. "Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, he established malice when he loaded his gun with hollow-nose dum-dum bullets, designed to rend and tear brutal wounds and cause horrible pain and suffering and ensure the agonizing death of his victim!" It happens more routinely than you’d think in armed citizen shooting trials, though rarely in police shooting cases since hollow points became the law enforcement standard.

This argument is, no pun intended, easy to shoot down…if your lawyer knows how. We simply establish that you chose the same type of ammo as the police, for the same reasons. With hollow points, the bullets are less likely to over-penetrate the body of the dangerous felon and strike down unseen innocent bystanders, and also less likely to ricochet and create unintended additional victims. Moreover, since collective experience shows us the improved stopping effect of the HP (hollow point) ammo means the bad guy will have to be shot fewer times to neutralize his violent activity, he is relatively less likely to die of his wounds. However, the argument in favor of hollow point ammo is useless if not effectively presented by the defense. Famed appellate lawyer Lisa Steele has seen defendants convicted with this argument when their trial lawyers failed to neutralize the poison. So have I. This apparently happened in the Arizona case mentioned above, contributing to what I for one believe was a wrongful conviction.

While it’s a slam-dunk to defend your use of hollow point ammo, the use of handloads in a shooting presents much more serious problems to your defense team. Defensive shootings are often very close-range affairs in which gunshot residue (GSR) from your muzzle is deposited on your attacker’s body or clothing. This can become a critical evidentiary factor if the other side insists he was too far away from you to endanger you at the moment he was shot. The distance testing is done with exemplar ammunition, that is, ammo identical to what was in your gun, but not the same exact cartridges. Don’t count on the crime lab testing the remaining rounds from your weapon as taken into evidence at the shooting scene. If the fight was sufficiently intense, there may not be any rounds left in the gun that saved your life. Even if there are remaining cartridges in evidence, they may not be tested. The prosecutor can argue, "Your honor, firing those cartridges consumes them! It’s destructive testing! The defense is asking the Court’s permission to destroy the evidence! You cannot allow it!" Do you think that’s a BS argument? So did I…until I saw a judge accept it, in a case where handloads were used in the death weapon, but the state crime lab tested with a much more powerful factory load, based on the headstamp on the reloaded casings. That gave a false indication of distance involved, and the defendant – whom I have strong reason to believe was innocent – was convicted of manslaughter.

You’d think the court would take the reloader’s records into account and allow testing based on that. It doesn’t happen. No one has yet been able to offer a case where the Court took the reloader’s data or word for what was in the load. It’s seen as self-serving "evidence" that can’t be independently verified. Sort of like a rape suspect saying, "I couldn’t have done it, because it says right here in my own diary that I was somewhere else that day."

After seeing these things in court, I learned to avoid the use of handloads for defensive purposes."

[ell198679]

I have 15 rounds of defensive factory ammo. Loaded in speed loaders. I would use those first. If things get really crazy. I have my handloads. I would definetly use factory ammo if you can. Then use reloads ,only if absolutely necesary. Here in cali its hard to buy good defensive ammo. After,the online ammo ban. The goal of the courts is to put true liberal, gun right advocates in prison at all costs. Sad but true fact. I think it's rather strange that the reloaders word, or diary cant be used. But a labs test of ammo which may not have even been used can. Seems like reasonable doubt. But dont count on it.

[jmort]

Please elaborate on your answer and edify us as to why it is wrong. Where did you come up with the conclusion/ how did you determine that the statement is wrong? Links/resources would be helpfull.

Just saying wrong does none of us any good or give us any reason to believe what you are saying is true.


There has never, ever been a case in the history of the United States where someone was convicted of a crime involving self-defense and reloaded ammunition. The case relied on ayboob and his drones involved a guy who murdered his girlfriend. The judge would not allow expert testimony based on his reloads. For ayboob to say no judge would allow such expert testimony is a joke. Regardless, a good shoot is a good shoot. The ammunition is irrelevant. We do know for a fact that a judge might allow evidence to be used against you for using a 10mm in self-defense, getting firearms training, and having lots of guns and ammunition. Just refer to the matter involving the late Harold Fish. Yet you never hear anyone say don't carry a 10mm, get firearms training, or have a lot of guns and ammo, because we know for a fact that a judge allowed that evidence. Thank God the trial judge was reversed on appeal. Also, don't murder your girlfriend. If you live in a Pink State, be afraid, be very afraid.

[ell198679]

Carry a bodycam evrrywhere you go,when carrying problem solved. They have glasses which can be shades or not with a cam built in. 130 dollars.Now you wont get **** in your eyes either.