Dacron Filler and Chamber Ringing

[dale2242]

As I read about dacron fillers I am seeing the general consensus is to leave the dacron fluffy and not push it down against the powder as that will make a wad and cause a ring in the chamber as the powder gases will compress the air between the filler and boolit.
This leads me to ask a few questions:
1. Has anyone ever proven that using fillers/wads improperly will cause chamber rings?
2. Is it possible to compress dacron enough to create a wad of it so compact that it will compress air in front of it?
3. Can air be compressed enough to damage a rifle chamber?
Let`s hear it from you people out there.
Larry Gibson appears to be the leading authority on dacron fillers on this site.
What say you, Larry?
Any comments will be appreciated.......dale

[Black Prince]

I have used dacron filler in 30-06, 375 H&H Magnum, and 338 Winchester magnum when shooting light loads of pistol powder in those cartridges and have not experienced any chamber ringing. The loads shot very accurately and with no issues. But like you, I have read in some of the glossy gun magazines about how their "Gun writer" expert did and ringed his chamber and how we should not do it. So I quit reading glossy gun magazines. Now I don't get bad information unless I read it on some Internet forum, usually coming from a guy who has never loaded a round using dacron, but poses himself as an "expert" because he read it in some glossy gun magazine. Seems like we just can't get away from all the BS being printed in those dam glossy gun magazines by "expert Gun writers."

To answer your question:
#1 - I have seen it in print that it happens, but I have also seen it in print that Hilary Clinton is an honest lady. However, he is neither honest nor a lady.
#2 - I have absolutely no clue.
#3 - I'm sure some redneck somewhere has done it, but I didn't hold Billy Bob's beer for him while he did it.:veryconfu

[NSB]

It's not the compressed air that rings the barrel, it's the wad acting as a hammer on the base of the bullet. I'm not going to spend a lot of time looking at old threads, but there were quite a few on here a year or so ago about one gentleman who was ringing chambers at will just to prove this can happen. He was pretty well known as a shooter and gunsmith. Dacron needs to be "lofted" up to use so that it doesn't act like another projectile below the actual bullet base. Other fillers can be used if you know what you're doing, but they must take up all the air space under the bullet. Any air gap will allow them to "hammer"the bullet and ring the chamber. Dacron is safe to use as long as you don't use too much of it and it's well lofted in the space between the bullet base and the powder. Rather than restart this entire subject all over again why not use the search function and look all that stuff up yourself? It's all there for the effort of looking and there were a lot of good answers and opinions.

[Mr Peabody]

I used it in the -06 with reloader 7, as long as I didn't use more than 1 grain and left it expanded it never caused a problem. If I used more than a grain it gathered a crud ring on the case mouth.

[15meter]

The problem that I read about in Precision Shooting years ago was that it was extremely random. Guys shooting 1000's of rounds with no problem then ruin a rifle.

One of the theories was also the material, Dacron, when the fillers were first used they were kapok a natural fluffy fiber. Think Lusitania era life jackets. Kapok became hard to find so people started to use Dacron or similar plastic products. When the switch came is when the chamber ringing started.

Personally because of the extreme randomness of the ringing I won't risk it. A lot of what I load that could use a filler gets shot in a buddies very high end English doubles and bolt guns. Risk/reward isn't high enough for me.

[john.k]

The use of fluffy fillers is a long established ring safe method of keeping powder against primer........but a grain of fluff cannot "eliminate" air space,because the fluff is simply random fibres in a mass of air...So the air is still there and will be compressed when the charge goes off...... there is a more complex mechanism involved....Lately some are advocating a type of construction foam as a filler.....Yes ,I have ringed a chamber,and I dont use any fillers now,I experiment with supposed dangerous mixtures of fast and slow powder......if I did ring a chamber ,I would repair it,which is what I did.

[GooseGestapo]

I don't buy it!
Dacron is used in the manufacture of gun powder. A typical Dacron filler wad is consumed in the combustion just like the gun powder.
However, there are other "pillow stuffings" out there that aren't Dacron, and won't act like Dacron.

Kapok used to be recommended as a case filler and was used as a filler for life jackets. However, Kapok was a plant fiber and would not burn like Dacron. I once knew someone who did ring a chamber with kapok. Never used it myself.
I have used Dacron and other than being tedious and time consuming, never had a problem with it. But, I avoid using it because I'm lazy.

[Rcmaveric]

I have used dacron in my .270 Winchester with 4198. I used about grain and made it fluffy with bullet pushing it down. Like others i have read the possible dangers. While it did tighten my groups noticable and made them more consistent. I am more of hunter and the groups were still respectable and good enough with out the filler. I have done it with several hundred rounds. I feel it is safe if done correctly, but i get a nagging in the back of my head so i try to develope loads with out them. No since in taking unnecessary wrisk.

[dale2242]

NSB, Thanks for your advice of looking it up.
I`m sure you have no idea how much time I spent researching this subject.
If this subject is of no interest to you why bother reading this thread or answering it?
Some here may want to discuss it further.

[Larry Gibson]

Most "ringing" has occurred over the years with the use of solid type wads used to hold the powder back against the primer. That left lots of air space between the wad and the base of the bullet. This occurred long before the advent of using Dacron. What exactly caused the ring is not known. There are several theories but as of yet none have been proven to my knowledge. [if anyone knows of any tests demonstration "ringing" and the cause I would really appreciate knowing of it?] Back in the late 60's I had heard of and tried kapok, cotton balls and tissue paper as wads to hold the powder in position. I then switched to Javelina lube and for a quarter plus the wrapper they would send a lube box stuffed full of Dacron. Dacron was touted then as the best to use as a wad. I bought several lube boxes of it but mostly was using it in the 30-30 and .308W over 4895 under a 311041 cast bullet. It always worked well unless the rifle magazine was loaded and fed from that. Many times after a couple three shots I would get a hang fire.....click/bang, especially with 7 rounds loaded in the tube M94 magazine. I discovered the wad had been jarred out of position allowing the powder to migrate around the wad so there was powder behind and in front of the Dacron wad. I found using more Dacron so it was a filler (completely filling the air space between powder and bullet and holding it there. With the use of the Dacron as a filler I got no more hang fires and accuracy actually improved. When I began using an Oehler chronograph in '74 the benefit of the Dacron filler became obvious through improved internal ballistic readings.

I also found with the faster pistol burning powder if used it was better to use one that ignited easily, burned efficiently and wasn't as prone to "positioning" as other powders than to use a wad or filler. Thus my favorite pistol powders to use w/o a filler or wad of any sort are Bullseye, Red Dot and Unique.

I do not recommend the use of a wad of any sort with any powder in any cartridge. A Dacron filler is my recommendation when a filler would be beneficial (a filler isn't always beneficial). However, the poly type fillers such as "Grex" are also useful. I don't recommend any of the cereal type such as COW as pressures can raise dramatically with those even in straight walled cases.

[9.3X62AL]

I ruined a nice rifle chamber in a nice Win 94 a few years ago via use of dacron wadding left lofted over small-bulk powder charges--caliber was 25/35 WCF, rifle was a flatband example (insert serial cuss words {HERE}). I salvaged the matter by turning a lemon into lemonade--I had Jesse Ocumpah rebore/rechamber the spoiled barrel/chamber to 38/55 M&B, which is several-orders-of-magnitude more useful than the 25/35 ever was. I just tilt the muzzle up to locate the powder near the primer before each shot now. NO MAS DACRON. FWIW, the "ring" occurred right at the neck/shoulder junction of the case/chamber.

[NSB]

NSB, Thanks for your advice of looking it up.
I`m sure you have no idea how much time I spent researching this subject.
If this subject is of no interest to you why bother reading this thread or answering it?
Some here may want to discuss it further.

A few years ago I bought a new 45-70 and wanted to try fillers since they were listed in a loading manual I had back then. I got on here and did a search and found a lot of info on the subject....a lot. At that time it seemed pretty easy to find. Maybe something changed? My point was that if you needed info NOW, it's there for the asking. If you would rather wait to get some info, it will come along eventually. I just wanted to let you know it was there....somewhere.

[Edward]

As I read about dacron fillers I am seeing the general consensus is to leave the dacron fluffy and not push it down against the powder as that will make a wad and cause a ring in the chamber as the powder gases will compress the air between the filler and boolit.
This leads me to ask a few questions:
1. Has anyone ever proven that using fillers/wads improperly will cause chamber rings?
2. Is it possible to compress dacron enough to create a wad of it so compact that it will compress air in front of it?
3. Can air be compressed enough to damage a rifle chamber?
Let`s hear it from you people out there.
Larry Gibson appears to be the leading authority on dacron fillers on this site.
What say you, Larry?
Any comments will be appreciated.......dale Larry says its good and that"s good enough for me ,at least the last 6-7yrs !

[swheeler]

I have never ringed a chamber using dacron, and have used a bit of it, but use it as described above by Larry. I do remember reading at least one article in the 1980's about several 308 chambers being ringed in one season of cast bullet competition, the author said all were using H110 powder and recommended no one use it for reduced rifle loads in 308. Years ago I tried H110 with a cast 55 gr bullet in 223, chronoed the first test rounds just to see because I "felt" uneasy using it even though it was a published load, stopped after just a few when seeing ES of 2-300 fps IIRC? A dacron filler may be the answer there too, I'll never know as the H110 works just fine in my 357s. I think if you can ring a chamber using dacron as described here by LG or others, you should buy a lotto ticket as you are "one in a million". .02

mis spoke 6 shots 179 fps ES

[9.3X62AL]

The powder I used during the above-described chamber-ringing incident was Alliant 2400/10.0 grains.

I'll be back in a bit, I need to go buy that lottery ticket now.

[tazman]

The only time I have used a fluff ball in a cartridge was with a few 45/70 loads decades ago. I was having an issue getting consistent ignition, so I used real cotton balls(not dacron) without compression, to hold the powder near the primer. It worked like a charm. I used the entire ball and it pretty much filled the case between the powder and boolit.
It was funny to see the cotton balls float through the air after firing the rifle. They didn't burn or anything. They just floated to the ground about 20-30 feet downrange.

[swheeler]

I hope you win!;-) Since I suggested it, if you win we split it, RIGHT!:bigsmyl2:

[Chill Wills]

I think someone can get in trouble with the Dacron using it over the faster powders like pistol powders. I do not know how or why the safe cutoff ends up 2400 and slower and DO NOT use the next faster powder. I do know that I have had no trouble though, if I adhered to the advice. Sometime we can have an unexpected onetime result when one case in a batch gets processed in a different way, unknown to the reloader.

[9.3X62AL]

Sure thing. Split the proceeds, and let IRS figure the tax side of things out.

[DonMountain]

Many years ago the Lyman reloading manuals had discussions on the use of case fillers, and recommendations if I remember correctly on larger bottle neck rifle cases using powders like IMR-4895 and some of the other IMR powders under cast projectiles with reduced loads. And, like Larry Gibson, I bought a chronograph and test fired a bunch of recommended loads from the Lyman manual starting from different positions so see what that did for bullet speeds. Using the 30-06 it was obvious that I couldn't use those loads for deer hunting where I would be shooting from a deer stand up a tree and pointing the rifle down. So, I started over with my loads from the bottom and added a piece of dacron to take up the space. These loads went instantly from plus or minus 300 feet per second to plus or minus 20 feet per second and groups went from 16" to less than 3" at 130 yards. No matter which way I brought the rifle up or down before firing it. And in the process settled on IMR-4895 for most of my antique military rifle calibers with 160 to 200 grain cast lead projectiles.

[GEOMETRIC]

Lyman called for a filler (probably dacron) for some of their 45-70 loads in one of their older manuals. I loaded my .45-70 ammo. with the filler per the data. Then, for no reason I know of, they dropped the filler from the data. I have to believe there was a problem with the filler, although I never experienced it. I stopped using the filler. It is no doubt rare that a problem would occur but it only has to happen once to ruin your whole day!

[GhostHawk]

Well after reading everything Larry had written on the subject. I decided the easy answer was to stock Red Dot in quantity, and not bother with fillers.

That being said I did shoot some 20 rounds with dacron, as larry suggested in my Mosin. Got great accuracy, and no ignition issues. No chamber ringing either. It is limited experience, but tis mine.

My money is on Larry G, not that I'd bet the farm. But my daddy taught me to never bet what you can not afford to lose.

I have a pretty nice PT cruiser I'd bet though. But only if Larry is the one loading the loads and pulling the trigger.

In the end the Red Dot has been good for me. And I truly thank Larry G from the bottom of my heart for all he has done here for shooters. I'll take his advice any day.

[Chill Wills]

Lyman called for a filler (probably dacron) for some of their 45-70 loads in one of their older manuals. I loaded my .45-70 ammo. with the filler per the data. Then, for no reason I know of, they dropped the filler from the data. I have to believe there was a problem with the filler, although I never experienced it. I stopped using the filler. It is no doubt rare that a problem would occur but it only has to happen once to ruin your whole day!

I asked that question of Mike Venturino when he was writing the latest Lyman loading book. He said they removed it simply because in a few cases, people would smash down the Dacron and use many times too much of it, making a wad out of something that was intended to be a lofted fuzz ball with next to no mass.

[lotech]

The filler concept has always made sense to me, but I don't use fast pistol powders in rifle cases. The explanations for chamber ringing also sound logical, but, unless I'm interpreting this wrong, sounds like nothing is proven. I prefer an appropriate powder for the case and have used this method with satisfaction for a long time.

I've always been curious about grease wads in modern smokeless cartridges, something I suppose is distantly related to the use of fillers, but certainly not the same thing. From what I've read (long before the Internet) and from very minimal personal experience some years ago, it's difficult for me to tell whether there was merit to the use of grease wads or it was a snake oil procedure.

[dale2242]

Thanks for the replies.
I don`t use fillers with the faster powders.
I find 10 gr. Unique without filler in my 30-30 a great load.
I have been playing with cast in my Garand using the recommended loads of IMR4895 in the 30 something grain range have read that dacron filler helps accuracy.
Time will tell when the weather breaks and I can set up the Chrony and do some load testing.
More discussion on this topic will be appreciated....dale

[LenH]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

Check out this link, Larry G. has an extensive write up on fillers, it should answer any questions about fillers.

[Green Frog]

About 25-30 years ago, this subject came up among members of the American Single Shot Rifle Association. This was very critical for their shooters who would fire hundreds of shots per season through barrels of soft steel, often a century or more old and pretty valuable as well. One of ASSRA's active shooters and experimenters, Charlie Dell, set out to test the various ideas being circulated and found that he could ring a barrel at will by simply having a flat face on the powder to set up that "hammer effect" on the back of the bullet. This happened virtually immediately with the oldest, softest steel, but could be observed beginning on even newer barrels with stronger, more modern steels.

The technique Charlie developed for us to use with our rifles was to seat a cork wad about an eighth of an inch off the surface of the powder so it could "slump" just a little... and the problem seemed to disappear. Some powders such as the late, lamented 4759 were less likely to produce the hammer effect, but all would. Some of us ended up using H-108 and Accurate #7 or #9, especially in the higher density loaded 32/357 (aka 32 Miller Short) with the cork wad and getting good, safe results.

Froggie

[NSB]

Charlie Dell, set out to test the various ideas being circulated and found that he could ring a barrel at will by simply having a flat face on the powder to set up that "hammer effect" on the back of the bullet.
Yep, that was the guy I was referring to in my earlier reply. Couldn't remember his name, but he did a good number of barrels at will as stated. If you can make it happen, it's going to happen. Anyone who says "it never happened to me" may be on borrowed time. However, it's their gun and they're free to do as they please. I'd listen to Larry Gibson regarding fillers, he's a pretty knowledgeable guy and he's been around a while.

[dale2242]

LenH, I`ve read your link through a few times before starting this thread.

Green Frog, I wasn`t asking about cork wad. As the title says, dacron. but thanks for your reply,

[mehavey]

Re GreenFrog's post (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?352590-Dacron-Filler-and-Chamber-Ringing&p=4265381&viewfull=1#post4265381) just above:
Modern "cork" is now light styrofoam disk punched from picnic plate, seated 1/5-1/4" off the powder.

See http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?273740-45-70-Grouse-Gun&p=3198860&viewfull=1#post3198860

I can attest it works