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docone31
08-25-2008, 06:19 PM
Hokay.
I cut my patches dead on at 2 3/16". I put a 30* cut to them. My last batch of patches started unraveling from the small end of the cut, back to the case.
Now, these are unsized and come out at .3135. I am wondering, if I size them to .311 as I planned on for my .30s, is the patch going to survive sizing?
I am now looking into binders for the paper. I read in Mathews book, using an egg white.
Any feedback?

docone31
08-25-2008, 06:21 PM
I forgot to add, I was wondering if my angle is too sharp. With the tails twisted, the patch does stay together during loading. They are wrapped so the rifling tightens the wrap. I do not yet under stand this concept. Once the rifling is engraved, how much movement does the patch undergo exiting the barrel.

405
08-25-2008, 07:37 PM
Hmmm, after the last flurry of tails vs no tails vs bobbed tails and SP vs BP and PP vs GG.... not sure I want to jump in :roll:

Anyway, I use .002 cotton paper, pretty wet with just water and no tail on flat based bullet. I only use PP for blackpowder loading. I've experimented with twist left or twist right. Can't tell any difference in accuracy. My bore is about .451 and groove is .458. The bullets are near pure lead. My finished PP bullet diameter is about .454. The bullets are swaged smooth tapered with 1.5 cal nose. The patch extents past the end of the bullet shank and onto the ogive .1" maybe a little farther. They are seated so the paper engraves the lands about .1".

The patch angle I use is 47 degrees (measuring the leading or trailing ends of the patch itself). After the patched bullets dry, sitting on their bases, I roll on foil that has a light coating of Rooster liquid. It dries to a non tacky surface. I do not have a problem with patches unwinding, during drying, after loading, when handling or any time..... until they are shot. The patches turn to confetti when they exit the muzzle.

For the most part this method has produced very good results.

docone31
08-25-2008, 08:06 PM
Thanks, 47*. It might be easier for me at 45*. The castings are pretty narrow, .308.
I know what you mean about the last thread I started. I read every one.
There are people here who strongly believe in what they do. That is one of the real gifts here. Aside from people being on top, their dedication to the purity of what we do has led me to recieve some great info. Literally, leading issues that with just a bump up in size, gonzo!
Personally, I am glad I got the replies on the thread I started. People with that dedication need a place to vent.
I have found, in the trade I am in, artists need to strongly believe in what they find to be true. Strongly. I am no different. I strongly believe in what I have learned, and if someone has a strong difference of opinion, I will walk away if I have to. His way works for him. I can learn something if I let myself.
What we do is steeped in tradition. I love it. More the tradition than actually shooting. Once I am dialed in, it gets boring. I do not have the patience to compete anymore. I did ok back then, but today, I get more satisfaction watching my wife grow in this tradition than anything else.
Hey, dos guys need a place to vent. I respect their opinions. Those same guys have helped me when I needed it.
Besides, their rants make me smile.

405
08-25-2008, 09:12 PM
I hear ya. If I were to be all and only about long range, pure accuracy with repeatable results I would have stayed with Jbullet high power. All this cast, pp, blackpowder, etc. stuff is an anachronism in some ways. The other part is seeing success in challenging endeavors. A little scientist, engineer in all of us.

The paper patch angle thing is always confusing when communicating. Folks use two different angles when describing the patch angle.... of course they should add up to 90 degrees total :mrgreen:. Here's a pic of the two ways to describe it.

The 45 degree cut should work fine. No particular reason for my 47 degree (angle B in the pic) just tried a lesser angle then the 47.... the 47 worked better. I think Mattews favored an angle of 35-40 degrees (angle A in the pic) which translates to 55-50 degrees using angle B in the pic.

BrentD
08-25-2008, 09:13 PM
If the alloy is soft, I think you can size them as is. I am currently sizing a .453 bullet to .448 and a .370 bullet to .364. Both 40:1. That seems to be more or less the upper limit for me and these particular bullet/paper combinations. BUT, I'm sizing the paper dry. Every so often I muck up a base doing this. So, I think I'll try lubing them very lightly with SPG and then sizing to see if that makes it any gentler, I think it will.

See - a rant free post - sorta boring, no?:) :)

Brent

docone31
08-25-2008, 09:31 PM
Hey, rant away!!!! I think you guys are great!

leftiye
08-26-2008, 02:13 AM
Don't read too much into this, it is just an exploration of some of the causes of conflagrations.

I kinda like a good argument myself. Problem is that so many people don't understand that it is actually fun. I think it scares or threatens them. Again, it's probly because they assume that to argue, one must be angry. I'd even go so far as to say a little anger isn't the end of the world, and that between folks it doesn't mean anything as per interpersonal problems (the bad news is that to the sheeples, it does mean problems). No reason to hate each other afterwards, that is.

But alas, the majority of folks wouldn't say $h!# if they had a mouthful, and have been taught to stifle instead of speaking out, they think that if you raise your voice, then you are "out of control" (what BS), and so they avoid confrontation as long as they can, and then they go straight for the jugular instead of just riding it out. After all of this, I guess that since many don't understand this - one must imitate the sheeples or one will have a war on their hands - especially when so many people take offense so easily (insecure personalities) and attack in response.

longbow
08-26-2008, 10:05 AM
docone31:

Re binders for paper patching.

I'll start by saying I am not an expert or competition shooter, I am a shooter and tinkerer~ and novice paper patcher.

I tried paper patching to get better results from smokeless powder loads ~ the typical, softer alloys at higher velocities and to stop leading. I have had some good success with my Marlin 1894 in .44 mag., .303 British and .308, and moderate results paper patching an undersized Lyman 12 ga. Foster slug.

I find that occassionally the open edge of the paper lifts so wanted to try a binder to help keep the patch tight and edge from lifting. While this may be due to poor technique, I find it more trouble with thicker papers and those that don't wet easily.

I had read that a thin mix of PVC wood glue and water works well so tried it. It was messy and I found I got fliers, and I found large pieces of patching. Maybe too much glue? Maybe patches sticking to the boolit?

I have also read about using egg white, soft drinks and milk. I decided to try a milk and water mix with not much water. It seemed to help, the wrapping stayed tight and patches looked good with no fliers. I did find that my fingers got quite sticky while wrapping so next time I will use a little more water.

I guess I should also mention that I don't size after patching so the patch has to be wrapped tight and stay "tucked". Also, I use a 60 degree angle for "B" (30 degrees off vertical).

Don't get me wrong, I love black powder but only have a muzzleloader with RB twist so no paper patching for BP cartridges here.

Longbow

docone31
08-26-2008, 10:45 AM
Longbow,
That gives me a lot to toss around.
I have a feeling, my angle was also too tight. I cut to 30*. I had a sharp tip. That made it easier to peel away.
The next batch I am going to try will be about 45*. I might add sodium bicarbonate, baking soda. I have read, that acts as a wetting agent. It might also have been the paper was not cooperating.
I am sure learning a lot.

montana_charlie
08-26-2008, 01:11 PM
The first post on this page http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=29238&page=6 has an image of a group of cartridges produced by the old Sharps company.
Many of the paper patches show the angle of their endcut.
Just judging by eye, they all seem the same.

It might be helpful...or at least interesting...to find out what that angle is and try it.
CM

405
08-26-2008, 01:24 PM
docone31,
It just came to mind after re-reading your first sentence in this thread "started unraveling from the small end of the cut, back to the case". I may be all washed up and out and forgive if that is the case :mrgreen: BUT is there any possibility you are rolling the patch on the wrong way--- with the acute angle of the patch ending up exposed on the forward edge? The oblique angle should end up at the leading edge and the acute angle should end up tucked or wrapped on the bullet base. Here's a pic I posted a while back showing a patch block with a bullet and patch ready to roll. It is set up to wrap counterclockwise (left twist). The mirror image over to the other side of the patch block would give a clockwise wrap (right twist).

docone31
08-26-2008, 01:52 PM
Heheeheheh!
My forehead already slopes backwards, now with one more slap it moved a little more.
I never thought of that.
Why?
I donno.
Like duh.......
Guess what I did.

405
08-26-2008, 02:05 PM
Hey! a light year better than a double charge oops! And, there is nothing like the random beauty of an opal!

mt_charlie,
Good idea. I pulled out an old original PP 45x2 7/8 round to see what the patch angle is. Kinda hard to get a precise measurement tho. Took two straight edges and a protractor. Best guess would be 45-50 degree angle of the patch (angle B in the diagram).

BrentD
08-26-2008, 02:27 PM
docone31,
Once you start rolling like 405 shows, all your unraveling problems will probably go away, even w/o additves for adhesion.

Brent

docone31
08-26-2008, 02:50 PM
Yeah, that is what I was thinking.
I use a roller to roll my own, you would be suprised at how difficult it is for me to figuire out the twist.
Why? Boy, you got me. It just happens that way. Probably too much time at Haight and Ashbury.

powderburnerr
08-26-2008, 04:54 PM
charlie ,
Orville Loomer had some origional patches and they were 50 degree ,
I cut some that angle and had a lot less end problems than with the shorter angle patches.Dean

montana_charlie
08-26-2008, 10:23 PM
Thanks for posting that picture of the rolling block...err..patching block, 405.
It erased a 'dumb question' I have been carrying for some time.
(a 'dumb question' cuz I just couldn't bring myself to ask it...)
CM

docone31
08-26-2008, 10:41 PM
Yeah, I like that photo.
I was doing it exactly backwards!
With the roller, it pulls towards you. Essentially it is like using the block you posted, except the block moves.
Now I know why my points kept peeling back. They need to be tucked into the wrap. My ogive was where your base is, and vice versa. My patch was also backwards. The tip started on the base side.
A picture is indeed worth a thousand words.

longbow
08-26-2008, 10:57 PM
The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook recommends a 60 degree cut (angle b in 405's post) and that is all I have used but I doubt it matters a bunch. I have seen posts by people who say they use a square edge successfully.

I am thinking the angle helps to start the wrap by using a point to stick to the boolit (easier to get lined up and started) and the finishing angled edge likely stays flatter without lifting after the final twist or tuck. Yeah, okay mine sometimes lift a bit, that's why a little stickum got used.

Also, an angled edge would be crossed and "sealed" by the lands when fired while a square edge may allow some gas leakage down the straight line.

Exactly what the angle is probably is more a matter of preference than any particular magic about a certain angle.

What angle do you use Brent?

Longbow

windrider919
08-30-2008, 02:00 PM
I tried various angles but all seemed to be about the same. I use 45 degrees now. Also, most PPers seem to be BP guys, but I shoot smokeless. I started PPing for economy, cant afford jacketed bullets anymore. I still wanted to shoot at higher velocities without leading so PP is the choice.

When you use smokeless the patch and bullet act differently. One major change I had to make was 'dry' patches did not shoot as well as treated patches. And dry patches do not feed well in my bolt action either. If you are shooting 'small bore' bullets I assume [rem the old joke?] you are using smokeless? You may have to increase bullet diameter to a compromise between bore and grove. And you might try to lube the patch with something like Rooster lube or alternative. Just try different variations and work up your accurate load.

A tip is to check your chamber throat and fit the patched bullet to that, not grove dia., again, not what the BP shooters do.