Water quenching boolits

[marek313]

Tell me if this makes sense to you guys. I'm just sitting here at work thinking and reading :coffeecom
Water quenching boolits as everyone knows increases hardness provided you have enough antimony in your alloy right. I think i saw some articles stating that in order to completely harden lead alloy boolits would have to be baked to 400 for an hour and then be water dropped. BHN goes up as they age after. How quickly it depends on the amount of antimony and arsenic but lets assume both are present enough that this alloy hardens. Doesnt really matter what the BHN is at this point.
So If I PC my boolits at 400 for 15mins then water drop wouldnt be long enough right? Or is it enough time to heat up surface of the boolit but not the core in which case outside would gain couple BHN from water drop but middle would still remain soft. Sort of how knifes are heat treated. Hard on the outside so it has a sharp edge but soft in the middle so it doesnt break from being too brittle?
I would think that having boolit thats hard on the outside so it doesnt skid and soft on the inside in order to protrude properly would be very desirable. These would function same as FMJ but would be pure lead alloy. I'm just not sure if there is enough mass to really get this kind of effect. I'm sure there are other factors involves as well but I'm curious to see what you guys think.

[bangerjim]

PC elimiates the need for old-school water hardening------at least in my book and from my experience. One must change thier mindset with modern technologies.

And, no, the 10-13 minutes you cure PC is not enough to gain the longer cycle heat treating done with water quenching of non-coated boolits.

And from my research and reading, Pb-based alloys behave a whole lot differently than Fe-based alloys as far as surface hardening and heat treating. I have done a lot of heat-treating of machine tool cutters and tools as I have a vacuum HT furnace in my shop. Fe-based alloys change from one state to another (martensitic/austenitic). Pb does not do that!!!!

Just stick with PC and forget needing harder Pb underneath. If PC is applies and baked properly, it will NOT come off and acts (sort of) like the FMJ's you mentioned. I cast 10-13 hardness for ALL my PC'd boolits.

Good luck!

[OldBearHair]

Question: So you bake the cast boolits one hour, water drop to increase hardness, then PC and back in the oven a few minutes. What does that do to the hardness of the boolit?

[44MAG#1]

I have put a sample 3 or 4 bullets in the oven and kept jacking up the temp till they slump. Back off maybe 20 degrees. Powder coat, put in oven at that temp and leave them maybe 30 minutes and immediately water quench. Bullet harden nicely and still are powder coated with no problems in shooting them. I put tray and all in the water because they all won't release from the non stick tin foil.

[marek313]

Question: So you bake the cast boolits one hour, water drop to increase hardness, then PC and back in the oven a few minutes. What does that do to the hardness of the boolit?
Sorry if I'm not clear.
I just powder coat, bake for 15mins and water drop but I was wondering whether heat treating it for that extra hour either before or as it bakes PC was worth doing in order to increase BHN. I havent done any testing but I thought I saw posts of someone doing this and claiming that water dropping even after short 15min bake did increase BHN. I might be wrong though.
I think Jim answered my surface hardening question so that only applies to Fe based alloys.

[44Blam]

I like dropping boolits in water just because you can deal with them sooner. So when casting, immediately after, I just dig all the boolits out and lay them out on a towel to dry for the evening. When PCing, I drop the PC'd boolits in the water. Then I can take the pan and stick it on the concrete floor of my garage. By the time I put out some towels and dig the boolits out of the water / dry them off, etc the pan is ready for new boolits. Then I load the pan, PC and stick it in the oven. Then I have 30 min to resize the last batch. Kind of keeps me moving... I have been taking some brass that needs resized/deprimed out there too, so I resize/deprime and then trim brass or re-prime, etc while waiting on the bake.

[popper]

You have to leave them in the oven for an hour, then drop in H2O, the colder the better. Has to do with mobility of atoms in a solid - need time to move around, then quench to freeze in proper locations. WD then cooked for a short time & AC are the same as AC.

[ukrifleman]

I bake bullets for 90 min at 230C/440F then drop them immediately into a bucket of cold water.

I leave them for at least 30 min before drying then store for at least 48 hours before testing hardness.

The last batch I baked, took the BHN from 11.5 to 20.9.

ukrifleman

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

SNIP...

Or is it enough time to heat up surface of the boolit but not the core in which case outside would gain couple BHN from water drop but middle would still remain soft.
It doesn't work like that.
What will happen is you will get irradic results in BHN from one batch to another.

Have you read this?
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm

[marek313]

It doesn't work like that.
What will happen is you will get irradic results in BHN from one batch to another.
Makes sense now. Thank you.



Have you read this?
http://www.lasc.us/HeatTreat.htm
Yes I did Thanx

[Boogieman]

If you coated the boolits , then cured them at 400 f for 1hour would the extended curing time hurt the coating?

[fredj338]

I have found a slight increase in bhn by water dropping my PC bullets after 15m @ 400. It isn't much but something.

[Grmps]

If you coated the boolits , then cured them at 400 f for 1hour would the extended curing time hurt the coating?

try it and let us know, I've baked PC for 30 min with no problems but never 1 hr.

If you PC after heat treat/water quench, you will lose what you gained water quenching, the 10 - 15 min @ 400° will remove what you gained.

[44MAG#1]

You can PC and heat treat at the same time. People who say one can't either hasn't tried it or they are just parrotting someone else.
If it is done correctly it can be done.

[gwpercle]

Size the boolits before you heat treat and quench harden them....sizing the hardened boolit is hard to do and cold working the lead surface softens it.
Gary

[243winxb]

At least 25 of the samples which were heated for 5 and/or 10 minutes and then quenched as described above also were sectioned, ground, polished and hardness tested both at the surface and the core. These tests revealed that the hardness was essentially uniform throughout.

The samples which had been hardened as described were also analyzed for metal content and had the following metal content:

Bottom of page. http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5464487.html

Heating Time Brinell Hardness (min.) (range)
______________________________________

5 min- 19.6-21.3 bhn
10- 25.5-28
20- 24.3-25.5
30- 28-29

The oven temperature has to be just below where the cast bullet will slump from to much head.

See alloy used also.

metal wt. %
______________________________________

Copper 0.038
Arsenic 0.16
Antimony
3.0
Tin 0.25
Zinc 0.0001
Cadmium 0.0001
Nickel <.0001
Bismuth 0.018
Silver 0.0038
Tellurium
0.0015
Sulfur 0.0005
Iron <.0001
Lead Balance

[44MAG#1]

Hard is a relative term. Hardness is also a relative term. Hard compared to what. AC wheelweights are hard compared to Elmer Keith's favorite alloy of years gone by. Lyman #2 is hard compared to AC wheelweights.
Linotype is hard compared to Lyman #2.
The components of the alloy tend to make the real difference in hardening.
It is no chore to water quench most alloys with at least 3 percent antimony to surpass Linotype but the WQ ALLOY WILL BE TOUGHER. if it is much above 4 percent it will become somewhat brittle but Linotype will be much more brittle because of the much higher antimony content.
After quenching wait at least 72 hours to get to close to max hardness. After 72 hours the alloy won't gain any worthwhile amount.
Hard, hardness=relative term.

[Aunegl]

I water quench cast bullets because I got tired of getting blisters on my finger tips.

[S.B.]

I'm not sure how you guys wives will understand you using her oven to bake your bullets or how much extra time you have on your hands but, I've only got 24 hours in each day and don't have the extra time to bake mine. They go right from the mold to the water for cooling. You see, I like to shoot and reload for this end.
My $.02,Steve

[Drew P]

I water drop mine for the same reason as 44blam. I don’t see how y’all can air drop bullets without them getting damaged from hitting each other while so hot. So I like to water drop to preserve their shape. Then I hitek at 400° and ice drop of final coat. But, if that’s not helping hardness as stated then I’ll quit I guess. I could bake longer on final coat, but the colors darken and aren’t as pretty. For pistols this is not really important but I want to make the best rifle bullets I can. I need to do more testing I suppose.

[Boogieman]

I just finished a test run of 158gr. Lee RNFP. PC coated then baked at 400f for 1 hour and dropped into 34f water. they passed the hammer test, Bhn. went from 12 to 18.5

[fredj338]

I water quench cast bullets because I got tired of getting blisters on my finger tips.

I have been casting for about 35yrs. How does water dropping have anything to do with blistered fingers? I wear glove on my mold hand. Open & drop on an old towel. I never touch the bullets with my hands when hot.

[Aunegl]

I have been casting for about 35yrs. How does water dropping have anything to do with blistered fingers? I wear glove on my mold hand. Open & drop on an old towel. I never touch the bullets with my hands when hot.

I've been casting for about 35 years too. I seem to like touching shiny bullets. Especially when they're hot. Yeah, water dropping works for me.

[marek313]

I just finished a test run of 158gr. Lee RNFP. PC coated then baked at 400f for 1 hour and dropped into 34f water. they passed the hammer test, Bhn. went from 12 to 18.5

Did those bullets age couple days or was that BHN tested right after? I'm thinking that might go up couple more points as they age but thats hell of a bump in hardness. Thats why I always water drop. Because hard lead i well hard to find these days so why not. I only bake for 15-20 mins which is not very long. Dont have hardness tester but I'm pretty sure they are harder then air cooled after they age for couple days. All I know is that they work because none of my guns lead.

[Landshark9025]

Here's what I found with this.

Process:

Cast with alloy approx 96/2/2 (give or take a bit on all)
Powder coat with Smoke's powder
Size with a Lee Push Through sizer die
Heat at 425 degrees for 45 min
Drop into a bucket of water


When I don't HT/Q I still don't get any leading, gun cleans up ok, etc. BUT, in my HK I do get much better accuracy. It has a polygonal rifling, but is a different profile than the Glocks.

It's enough that the extra step is worth it.

I forget which powder that was. Likely Titegroup or Bullseye. Possibly HP-38. Definitely one of those.

For me, if it doesn't make a difference on the target or cleanup- I don't do it.

[crackers]

If you coated the boolits , then cured them at 400 f for 1hour would the extended curing time hurt the coating?
No. Following the cure protocol exactly is for color fidelity. For range scrap uniformity and whatever hardness level I use 480 on a thermometer for 30 minutes. Cutesy and shootability are often confused here.

[Wayne Smith]

I water drop mine for the same reason as 44blam. I don’t see how y’all can air drop bullets without them getting damaged from hitting each other while so hot. So I like to water drop to preserve their shape. Then I hitek at 400° and ice drop of final coat. But, if that’s not helping hardness as stated then I’ll quit I guess. I could bake longer on final coat, but the colors darken and aren’t as pretty. For pistols this is not really important but I want to make the best rifle bullets I can. I need to do more testing I suppose.

Unless of course you drop them too soon. I've achieved banana shaped boolits!

[44MAG#1]

Experience, experimentation and practice goes a long way in ANYTHING we do. Casting is no different.
Sometimes it's amazing.

[fredj338]

I've been casting for about 35 years too. I seem to like touching shiny bullets. Especially when they're hot. Yeah, water dropping works for me.

See I am a fast learner, touch the hot stove once was enough, same for bullets out of the mold.

[Boogieman]

Did those bullets age couple days or was that BHN tested right after? I'm thinking that might go up couple more points as they age but thats hell of a bump in hardness. Thats why I always water drop. Because hard lead i well hard to find these days so why not. I only bake for 15-20 mins which is not very long. Dont have hardness tester but I'm pretty sure they are harder then air cooled after they age for couple days. All I know is that they work because none of my guns lead.

They were tested as soon as they were cooled , they were checked the next day an were slightly harder I cut
1 and checked the center it tested the same as the nose.