Rifling and bullet size in 9mm

[Mauser1892]

Current cast bullets sized at ,355 do not print very well with the Walter PPS M2. Very good with an S&W model 39-2

I have read with great interest the current threads on 9mm bullets size and lubrication. Nothing like learned advice based on testing.
As suggested, lugged my Walter PPS 9mm barrel and came up with: 0.356 dia high and 0.321 dia lows with my old machinist micrometer. A most unique land shape.
BTW the lead tests at 20 Brinell.
I have .355 and .358 sizing/lubricating dies on hand and a new .357 coming from Cabela's (on sale at $19)

Any recommendations to try first? Comments. Am I doing something wrong?
Thanks for your help.

[DougGuy]

The only thing wrong, is sizing to .355" This is smaller than groove diameter of the bore, and with bhn 20, too hard of an alloy to get any obturation out of so it remains smaller than the bore when fired.

In a PERFECT world, (ya right) the boolit will be sized .001" to .002" greater than groove diameter, and the freebore in your barrel's throat would need to be .0005" to .001" greater than boolit diameter. Loading boolits that won't "plunk" in the chamber makes you have to seat deeper which creates a second problem as a poor workaround for too tight of a throat, and you have to start compensating load data to make up for a shorter COA.

The proper thing to do is to have the barrel throated to .3585" and use .358" boolits seated out as long as you want to run them, size to .358" and use only a taper crimp die, toss the carbide factory crimp die aside, and use an alloy that is more suitable to sealing in the barrel, say bhn 15 or so and use a soft lube as well. A good alloy to use would be 50/50+2% (coww/pure lead/tin) and almost any of the softer lubes will work, many of us have our favorites when it comes to this subject but the commercial hard crayon lube which comes on store bought mass cast boolits is about the worst you can use.

This is a KKM barrel for a Glock after throating, but to give an idea, the smooth part just in front of the leade ins is called freebore, this is the part that needs to be just a tad over boolit diameter. This barrel will plunk anything that will cycle through the magazine, very accurate, cast boolit friendly throat you are seeing here in this barrel. If you can look in your barrel, and the rifling runs right down to the chamber mouth, with no freebore, it will always be a problem to load for, and barrels like this are the norm these days so this is a very common problem for guys who want to shoot cast boolits.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/5bc940f7-3eb8-4afb-a97e-a0847f05a590_zpsuertpz7r.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Cylinder%20Services/Glock%20Throating/5bc940f7-3eb8-4afb-a97e-a0847f05a590_zpsuertpz7r.jpg.html)

[winelover]

I agree with purchasing the taper crimp die but not tossing the "carbide factory crimp die". Why not keep it and use it only for seating your bullets, not crimping. Remove the seater stem from the taper crimp die and crimp in a separate step? This way, when you change bullet styles, you only have to adjust the dedicated (tossed) seater die.

Winelover

[gnostic]

I've owned half a dozen 9mm handguns and haven't yet seen one that would shoot a bullet under .358 without problems. A cast bullet friendly throat, would be a joy to load for...

[BHuij]

Two likely culprits I see here, although I'm far from an expert:

1) Sizing. If your groove diameter is slugging at .356, then I wouldn't try shooting any boolits sized smaller than .357, and .358 is probably a better bet. Otherwise you're not getting a good seal as the boolit travels down the bore, and poor accuracy is the least of your problems when that's the case. Usually this scenario also leads to gas cutting and moderate to severe leading (ask me how I know that).

2) Alloy hardness. 20 BHN is harder than you need for 9mm, even if you're shooting super hot loads. A softer alloy is more likely to obturate, once again helping you seal the bore. This will increase accuracy and minimize or eliminate leading, assuming all your other important factors are in place.

Best of luck! As a fellow caster trying to get the stars to align on 9mm to get accurate rounds without leading, I'm cheering for you.

[Mauser1892]

A very good point on the lead hardness. Since the ead was purchased as "wheel weights" a reading of Rh 20 is not reasonable.
Will re-check findings. Using a LEE tool which is not the best.Miss former access to a Rockwell hardness machine!

[DougGuy]

I agree with purchasing the taper crimp die but not tossing the "carbide factory crimp die". Why not keep it and use it only for seating your bullets, not crimping. Remove the seater stem from the taper crimp die and crimp in a separate step? This way, when you change bullet styles, you only have to adjust the dedicated (tossed) seater die.

Winelover

The carbide factory crimp die I am referring to is one with the carbide ring in it that sizes the finished round, not the seating die. The FCD with the carbide ring in the bottom can and often does size a .358" down to .355" or .356" in the case by sizing the finished round. I think you are confusing the two dies.

[winelover]

Never heard of a carbide die for a finished round......of course I don't buy any other brand of dies than RCBS. Why is a carbide ring needed, other than in the first die, to resize the fired round?:veryconfu
Been loading 9mm for over 40 years, without issue. Load for six different firearms.

[Lloyd Smale]

I like 357 for 9mm and 380s. 358 might work but reliablility in feeding is more important to me in a 9 then a 1/2 inch change in group size. Ive got and have had MANY 9mms and all of them shot well and didn't lead with 357 sized bullets.

[Larry Gibson]

The propriety carbide sizer in my Dillon SDB sizes the cases just fine as does the Lee 2 ring carbide sizer (not the FCD). I also suggest not "tossing" the FCD as it may come in handy. Years ago I shot thousand of 356402s and 356242s cast of COWWs sized at .356, lubed with Javelina (NRA 50/50) over 4 gr Bullseye through a S&W M39, a S&W M59 and a Browning HP. Never had a lick of problem except keeping the cases separated as the rim size (there were 2 different sizes back then which required 2 different shell holders). I also shot a lot of them through numerous sub machine guns of various make we had in our SF arms vault. I've found larger sizes (.359/.359) sized cast can, in some cases, give chambering problems in some guns. The last few years I have routinely sized the 356-120-TC I now use at .357 because it works nicely in my CZ75 and also fits the throats of my S&W M15 38 SPL revolver.

[mdi]

For a new reloader; IMO, ferget the Lee FCD and just learn to correcty adjust your dies. The FCD for handgun ammo is a "post crimping sizing die" meaning after the bullet is seated and crimped a carbide ring sizes the finished case to what Lee believes it should be. I have only been reloading semi-autos for mebbe 18 years and have never had a need to resize my finished ammo. If my reloads don't pass the plunk test, then I'll find out why and correct the problem.

I have three 9mm pistols that I shoot cast bullets in and I use two bullet diameters; .358"+ for an old Norinco Tokerev with a groove diameter of .357"+ and .357" for my Ruger and FMK with .356" barrels. The hardest alloy I use is about BHN 17 and that's for my old military rifles with around 12-14 BHN for my 9mms...

[Lloyd Smale]

biggest problem with lee fcd's comes from people that don't know how to adjust one and just toss the instruction or figure there smarter then the too. Adjusted like the instructions say it never gave me problems. Its real easy to to set it to deep and swadge down your bullets

[gwpercle]

I have good results sizing 9mm to .357. Used in my Walther P38 and some friends who have Ruger, Springfield and Taurus pistols. No leading in any of them.
The hard part was seating depth. The P38 has a nice throat and OAL's no problem. The newer 9mm's have little or no throat so seating a .357 sized boolit in them must be by trail and error.
The newer and smaller the gun the less throat they cut.
Gary

[DougGuy]

biggest problem with lee fcd's comes from people that don't know how to adjust one and just toss the instruction or figure there smarter then the too. Adjusted like the instructions say it never gave me problems. Its real easy to to set it to deep and swadge down your bullets

The carbide ring is a finite size. Pretty hard to adjust that. Once it passes over the loaded round, it forces whatever amount of brass and boolit to become small enough to go through the ring. Usually if the boolit you loaded was larger than the standard factory diameter, it swages it down. If you are loading .356" or .357" diameter it may not swage those but .358" yeah it will turn that into a .356" and then the springback in the case effectively insures you don't have enough neck tension once the die finishes it's work.

The Lee carbide FCD is for cosmetics ONLY. It makes the outside of the loaded rounds look really smooth, and in guns with undersize chambers, it will make loaded ammo chamber more easily. There really isn't ANY useful purpose for the Lee FCD and cast boolits except to make Lee more money.

[WheelgunConvert]

How " tall" is the FCD carbide ring? The 9mm Luger ( parabellum) is a slightly tapered case, not like the straight walled 380 ACP. Is it really sizing the full length and possibly swaging the projectile or just the web area +/- a bit?

[tazman]

I have 7 different 9mm handguns. They have groove dimensions all over the place. The loosest are the Beretta 92fs/m9 barrels. They measure .357-.358.
The tightest are the Springfield Range Officer 1911 pistols. They measure .355.
I run .358-.359 through all of them since the rounds loaded with that size will "plunk" in every chamber in all my guns.
The Range Officer pistols get slightly better accuracy with .356 boolits. I have a Lyman 356402 that drops from the mold at that size so that's what they get fed mostly. I don't shoot these in the other pistols.
I have a S&W 929 that shoots all sizes accurately. It just doesn't care.
I use range scrap, water quenched from the mold. BHN approx 15. I both tumble lube and lubrisize boolits and I just don't have problems with leading.
I also use a Lee FCD to finish crimp all my handgun rounds( I seat and crimp in 2 steps). The carbide ring on my 9mm FCD doesn't even touch the case unless there is a problem somewhere. I really like how easy it is to set the crimp just the way I want it with the Lee FCD.

[Lloyd Smale]

Ive found the problem claimed way over rated. Ive shot 10s of thousands of 9s 40s and 45s that have gone through a factory crimp die and find at least in those platforms it doesn't hurt a thing. I also will add that in a black gun my main concern is reliability and accuracy is secondary. that said they shoot just fine after passing through a fcd. Now I don't use one for revolver rounds that need a roll crimp. What I do for them is buy a second bullet seating die and pull the seating plug out and use it in a 4th stage to crimp.
The carbide ring is a finite size. Pretty hard to adjust that. Once it passes over the loaded round, it forces whatever amount of brass and boolit to become small enough to go through the ring. Usually if the boolit you loaded was larger than the standard factory diameter, it swages it down. If you are loading .356" or .357" diameter it may not swage those but .358" yeah it will turn that into a .356" and then the springback in the case effectively insures you don't have enough neck tension once the die finishes it's work.

The Lee carbide FCD is for cosmetics ONLY. It makes the outside of the loaded rounds look really smooth, and in guns with undersize chambers, it will make loaded ammo chamber more easily. There really isn't ANY useful purpose for the Lee FCD and cast boolits except to make Lee more money.

[fredj338]

IMO, bigger is usually better. I run 0.357" bullets in all my 9mm. I never have had a bullet keyhole & accuracy is better than running 0.356" in 99% of my 9mm. It is the largest dia I can run in mixed brass & get it to work 100% in all my guns.
FWIW, toss the LFCD if loading lead @ proper dia.

[DougGuy]

How " tall" is the FCD carbide ring? The 9mm Luger ( parabellum) is a slightly tapered case, not like the straight walled 380 ACP. Is it really sizing the full length and possibly swaging the projectile or just the web area +/- a bit?

The ring is about .200" tall, and it sits right at the bottom of the body of the die so it does go nearly all the way to the shellholder.

[Rcmaveric]

Set your 9mm case in the shell holder. Raise the ram full up. Then screw in your Lee CFCD till you feel resistence or gets slightly tight. That's how you adjust amount of crimp. Lock the die down. You can have none to some crimp. Then you adjust the stem for seating depth. I think most of the stigma from the carbide ring crimp die is the die not being set up properly. Most seater dies get run down to flush with the shell holder then the stem adjusted. If you do that with the lee carbide die then you just ruined your round.

[Lloyd Smale]

yup and every factory round of ammo you've ever shot is run through a final size die to insure it runs in even marginal guns. You think maybe its why they call it a "FACTORY" crimp die
Set your 9mm case in the shell holder. Raise the ram full up. Then screw in your Lee CFCD till you feel resistence or gets slightly tight. That's how you adjust amount of crimp. Lock the die down. You can have none to some crimp. Then you adjust the stem for seating depth. I think most of the stigma from the carbide ring crimp die is the die not being set up properly. Most seater dies get run down to flush with the shell holder then the stem adjusted. If you do that with the lee carbide die then you just ruined your round.

[DougGuy]

Set your 9mm case in the shell holder. Raise the ram full up. Then screw in your Lee CFCD till you feel resistence or gets slightly tight. That's how you adjust amount of crimp. Lock the die down. You can have none to some crimp. Then you adjust the stem for seating depth. I think most of the stigma from the carbide ring crimp die is the die not being set up properly. Most seater dies get run down to flush with the shell holder then the stem adjusted. If you do that with the lee carbide die then you just ruined your round.

This method us using the CFCD like a roll crimp on a seating die. Not at all how the die is intended to be used.


yup and every factory round of ammo you've ever shot is run through a final size die to insure it runs in even marginal guns. You think maybe its why they call it a "FACTORY" crimp die

This is the purpose of the CFCD. To be ran down the entire length of the case.

[Lloyd Smale]

and does factory ammo shoot like **** in your gun because the bullet was swadged down?
This method us using the CFCD like a roll crimp on a seating die. Not at all how the die is intended to be used.



This is the purpose of the CFCD. To be ran down the entire length of the case.

[kmrra]

I size mine at 356 with problems , many many variables causes problems for everyone

[DocSavage]

Size to .357 as that is the largest I can size without feeding problems. My gripe is that factory barrels are 1 in 10 twist when they should use the 1 in 16 twist of the 38 super. Not a target class shooter myself but I'm under the impression that a 38 super will shoot rings around 9mm Luger.