Wadcutter brass (38 spl)

[Lead Freak]

I've been told that the wall thickness in wadcutter brass is consistent at least 1/2 way down the case so that it doesn't deform the Boolit. After measuring a mixture of standard brass (Star Line, Winchester, Blazer, etc.) they all measured .010" well below the seating depth of a wadcutter. What difference is there between standard and wadcutter brass?

[Calamity Jake]

I don't know what you are using to measure wall thickness below the boolit but it takes a material thickness mic to measure it.
so exactly what you have been told is right!! Wad cutter brass is straight walled for the length of the WC boolit then it gets thicker.
Some designs of WC brass have a cannalure at the base of the boolit preventing it form being seated deeper.

[gwpercle]

Some brass that has been factory loaded with wadcutters has a cannelure down low about where the base of the boolit would be. The low cannelure gives the case a good place to fail at after a bunch of reloadings. Other than that , no difference.
Some factory WC ammo doesn't have any low cannelures , appear to be smooth sided like regular 38 special ammo.
I load all my cast wadcutter ammo in whatever cases I can get. Doesn't seem to make much difference.
Gary

[Outpost75]

Starline brass is good straight up as wadcutter brass. Other brass you can check with a tubing micrometer. So is most .38 Special brass originally loaded with lead bullets. Some +P brass is thicker walled in order to provide heavier bullet pull with lighter-weight jacketed bullets and heavier charges of slower burning powder. If brass wall thickness is of uniform thickness, not greater than 0.010" down to the depth where the base of the bullet will be when seated, about 1/2", you are good to go.

[Hick]

The differences between wadcutter brass and regular brass (if there is any real difference other than the cannelure) seems to be so minor that I don't bother to separate them-- I load either one with whatever bullet I chose on any particular day. The same goes for regular brass and +P brass.

[fcvan]

I have shot and reloaded some 38 wadcutter brass so many times the cannelure is a faint mark. I have never has brass fail at the cannelure, they usually split vertically. very rarely at that. I have often thought of getting a wadcutter mold but never did. Lately, it has been the 158RF and add a PB GC made from soda can material for magnums. My last magnums were 158 RF PB Powder coated and they shot fine without leading. Still, a wadcutter would be old school. I had a co-worker who had to use his off-duty in a self defensive situation. Chief's Special stoked with factory wadcutters. 1 shot stop, non fatal, but it did stop the conflict. Dropped the bad guy right there.

[Mr_Sheesh]

That works, you get to walk away - Beats the alternative.

[metricmonkeywrench]

Had some questions on that myself after receiving some "odd" brass. On another sight it was confirmed that what I had was wadcutter brass, the big key being the knurl marking low on the case. The major difference is sort of what you were told, the web of the brass starts lower on the case wall resulting in a thinner wall further down. this keeps from swaging the base of soft or hollow base bullets. attached is a photo of one I cut in half after the case mouth split. So the story goes with the demise of revolvers in the hands of the police/military the market for wadcutter ammo fell off and manufacturers more or less stopped producing this type brass.

211629

[Cosmic_Charlie]

I just picked up 300 once fired wc cases at a gunshow for $15. Seemed like a good deal.

[tazman]

I used to load wadcutters in any brass I had on hand. I got hold of several hundred Remington wadcutter brass and loaded them up and tested the accuracy against the mixed brass.
Bottom line is, there is an accuracy difference. It isn't large, but it is enough to notice. Using wadcutter brass reduced my group size nearly 10%. That isn't a big difference for practice or plinking purposes.
For target it can be crucial. Any accuracy advantage is worth whatever you have to do to get it.

[USSR]

FWIW, U.S. made wadcutter brass is identified like this: Winchester and Remington both have 2 cannelures midway down the case, and Federal has a single cannelure just north of mid-case.

Don

[mehavey]

What difference is there between standard and wadcutter brass?Wadcutter Brass <==> Regular Brass
Don't worry one way or the other.

[MT Gianni]

I believe there is a difference in the way it shoots but not many shooters or guns can tell. I have 1300 or so and load it just with wadcutters. Other brass gets the rest. When I tried to sell 1000 6 months ago there were no takers.

[bstone5]

Have 38 Special brass that has been loaded many, many times.
Ever now and then one will split but not very often. My wife and
sister in law will shoot several boxes of ammo when we go to the range.
Have a lot of the wad cutter brass with the the two rings use this brass like all other
38 Special brass.
Purchased 500 pieces of Starline 38 Special brass a few years ago this brass will outlast me.

[USSR]

Wadcutter Brass <==> Regular Brass
Don't worry one way or the other.

You obviously don't load HBWC's.

Don

[mehavey]

What does a Hollow base wadcutter bullet have to do with the brass ?
(Re OP's original question)


FWIW I do load 38 Special (previously) cannelured/non-cannelured same-headstamp cases for rifle* -- where it will really show up at 100 yards -- with no appreciable difference.

* (SAECO 398-158TC Lym#2/1,227fps)

[M-Tecs]

What does a Hollow base wadcutter bullet have to do with the brass ?
(Re OP's original question)


FWIW I do load 38 Special (previously) cannelured/non-cannelured same-headstamp cases for rifle* -- where it will really show up at 100 yards -- with no appreciable difference.

* (SAECO 398-158TC Lym#2/1,227fps)

148 gain hollow base wadcutters are flush with the front of the case. The base extends deeper into the case than with conventional bullets. If the case tapers to soon it sizes the base of the bullet.

[tazman]

What does a Hollow base wadcutter bullet have to do with the brass ?
(Re OP's original question)


The hollow base wadcutter is the boolit the wadcutter brass was designed for. The hollow base wadcutter is significantly longer than a solid wadcutter due to the void in the base. The extra length required the case to be straight walled to a deeper length than for normal boolits in order to keep from swaging down the diameter of the base. The factory hollow base wadcutters were soft lead swaged into shape and would deform easily. Remember, these boolits were loaded flush with the case mouth with nothing sticking out for use in semi-auto target pistols.
I believe more of the brass, currently made, is straight walled deeply enough to accept a solid wadcutter without deforming it. Not certain about the hollow based wadcutters though.
Your example of the rifle and mixed brass compared to target wadcutters in a pistol is comparing apples and oranges. The 158 grain tc or swc boolits are loaded to a longer OAL and don't get seated anywhere near as deeply into the case. They are not likely to get swaged down by differing wall thickness. The wadcutters are also not going nearly as fast as your rifle loads. The wadcutters are often loaded slow enough that they will destabilize beyond about 50 yards.
The biggest thing effecting accuracy in your rifle load would be differing case volume which may cause different velocities in different headstamps. Apparently not an issue for you.

[mehavey]

I've got some 1970-ish HBWC Winchester target ammunition/cases in the basement (from back when I was a real person on a military pistol team).

I'll shot/reload some tomorrow.

[rintinglen]

Back when I shot PPC and was able to see the sights, wadcutter brass meant about 10 more points over mixed brass. Whether that was the result of the brass difference or more care being taken in my match loadings is open to question, but if you are loading 38 specials for maximum accuracy, a Remington HBWC bullet in same-lot wadcutter brass is darned hard to equal, let alone beat.
That said, I don't shoot well enough anymore to make it worth while to spend much time sorting brass.

[stubshaft]

I still have and shoot my old 586 from my PPC days. I do NOT have the eyes to go with it though. If I did the type of brass would make a difference. Now I just plink with one of my J frames and can state unequivocally that the brass is NOT going to matter...

[Char-Gar]

I've been told that the wall thickness in wadcutter brass is consistent at least 1/2 way down the case so that it doesn't deform the Boolit. After measuring a mixture of standard brass (Star Line, Winchester, Blazer, etc.) they all measured .010" well below the seating depth of a wadcutter. What difference is there between standard and wadcutter brass?

Repeat the exercise using the length of a hollow base wadcutter, and report back. That is what the factory loads in those cases.

[mehavey]

FWIW: The expander die is what uniforms the internal diameter of a sized case -- wadcutter brass or not.

Full-length sized brass is going to be pretty uniform internally -- notwithanding the wall may be thinner/ID ever-so-slightly bigger for a longer stretch in the old FWC brass. But the expander is what determines final internal diameter once the dust settles.

Now my RCBS 38/357 expander is a uniform/straight cylinder for 0.40" before it hits the mouth flare. With a scoch of flare we may be talking 0.42"- 0.43" straight cylinder inside. Take a look at any 141-148 HBWC and tell me what the shank depth would be on a seated bullet -- even one near flush w/ the case mouth. By my own projections it's not going to be much past the uniform expander/cylinder shank depth.

[35remington]

This is why, upon request, longer expanders intended for HBWC’s are made. With these the point about case wall expansion and thickness is not as moot as you are trying to make it. The base of the HBWC bullet cannot be at all past the expanded depth and area of proper wall thickness, and if you have the right expander and the right cases it is not.

[tazman]

mehavey------According to the NOE website, the 148 grain hollow base wadcutter they make molds for(360-148-wc(hb), produces a boolit .634 inches long.
That is at least .2 inches deeper than the depth your expander produces when the boolit is seated flush with the mouth of the case.
I don't have any factory hollow based wadcutters or I would measure one. Shouldn't be much different, I would think.

[mehavey]

Guys, i'm having a real problem thinking the final 0.05-0.10" of a soft/pure lead HBWC can't handle expanding as it literally starts to move under fast-powder pressure to full case-wall diameter as the case is blown out to chamber diameter.

Especially as that's just exactly what Minie balls do, under far less pressure, with dramatically-slower powder, and far thicker skirts.

BREAK BREAK post: tazman: that's good data. It would affect my thinking on how deep the expander should extend down to, given the bullet's actually that long.

[tazman]

Guys, i'm having a real problem thinking the final 0.05-0.10" of a soft/pure lead HBWC can't handle expanding as it literally starts to move under fast-powder pressure to full case-wall diameter as the case is blown out to chamber diameter.

Especially as that's just exactly what Minie balls do, under far less pressure, with dramatically-slower powder, and far thicker skirts.

BREAK BREAK post: tazman: that's good data. It would affect my thinking on how deep the expander should extend down to, given the bullet's actually that long.

As far as the hollow base expanding under pressure to seal the barrel, that is exactly what it is designed to do. I don't know how quickly it does it though or how much it expands. I would hope it would be starting to expand and seal things up as it leaves the cylinder but it can't be too fast or it might crack while entering the forcing cone, thereby causing all kinds of problems. I do know that too high a chamber pressure will blow the skirts off. Been there done that.
If compressed/swaged too far inside the case, it might not get expanded back out enough to seal the barrel until gas cutting had started. I simply don't know and am speculating here.
I don't know of any tests having been done on this step in the firing process but someone must have addressed it at some point in time. Anyone with certain knowledge of this please jump in here.

[M-Tecs]

I know for a fact the with solid base wadcutters it make a significant accuracy difference. If it didn't make a different in HBWC's there would be no reason for the manufactures to incur the extra expense of producing wc brass.

[starreloader]

Winchester wad-cutter brass and Remington HBWC's all loaded on a STAR with an extended case expander were the items that I loaded many thousands of rounds with during my 10+ years if PPC and other comp shooting.. Was the best combination of ammo components and loading equipment that produced great results for me.

[zubrato]

The brass definitely makes a difference, and the expander is important but will not yield the same results as WC brass. If you expand non-Wc brass to hbwc depths, and seat you may find that a certain amount of your loaded cases will not chamber, if not most of the non-WC brass.
This was exactly the problem I had, as both the interior dimension swaged down my pure lead HG50s from .359 to .355 despite using a custom hbwc from rcbs, and overall diameter of case and bullet did not allow for reliable chambering of a few specific mfg of brass.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mehavey]

Learnin' here guys.
Never would have expected pure lead/cavity not to have been able to blow
out to max wall dimensions within first few 1/10th of an inch movement.

(In fact QL tells me that 3gr Bullseye behind a lyman 358495/flush reaches
near Pmax at bullet travel ~0.2" and stays there thru ~0.4-0.5")

[lotech]

I seldom shoot .38 Special wadcutter ammo in a revolver, but do use it in a Smith & Wesson 52 automatic. When I got the pistol several years ago, I worked up loads using a batch of Winchester brass that had already been fired many times. Once I got the right bullet diameter and the seating and crimp to where functioning was reliable, never had a problem and accuracy is excellent.

That batch of brass has worn out and I bought 1,000 Starline. I have not loaded any wadcutter ammo with it, but hope it works as well as the Winchester.

[35remington]

Mehavey, the very fact that it is deliberately done the way it is indicates what you think is “unnecessary” is in fact necessary. When your perception of what is needed does not match what actually occurs, it is time to change your erroneous perception.

[mehavey]

The fact that "....that's the way it's always done...." has never held very little sway with me over the years.
I will find some old-fashioned brass and run some trials.

First, however, I have to find an oversize/overlength expander, or all is for naught no matter what.) :-(
(and what I find fascinating is that Hornady's HBWC advertises "... pre-lubricated, extra-hard and cold swaged"... which I would think defeats the HB purpose for any number of reasons)

(and then... FWIW... my Model-19 cylinder throats pin gauge out to 0.356 -- which again makes me sit back and think.....)





...and...... I've ordered some Black Hills HBWC to play w/ experiment after..... Fun, fun, fun....

[bgeipel]

What a timely topic. I just started casting Lyman 358495 sized to .359 yesterday and my first samples using a Hornady bullet seater/crimp did not chamber in my revolver. I switched to a Lee Factory Crimp and they chambered perfectly. Probably not what I wanted if the Lee Factory Crimp swaged the bullet down to .355

I will pull a loaded bullet tonight too see.

[35remington]

Hornady’s swaged HBWC’s are not at all hard. Take that from a guy who has hardness tested them and been on a tour of the plant six times. Anything swaged from extruded lead wire is by necessity soft.

One of the things one can only disabuse oneself of thinking by actual experiment is to try something “no one else has thought of doing, so it must be better because they haven’t tried it.”

It is also worth considering that the way they are currently doing things is the best way to do it.....because alternatives fail to be as good.

Certainly food for thought. If a type of match wadcutter ammo has been made by everybody this way for years, there is a reason why.

In doing any comparative testing, make sure your testing method, equipment and ability is actually capable of measuring any differences that may be present. Most fall short in this regard.

And in assessing results, be sure to apply statistical analysis to determine what level of difference needs to be observed to be statistically relevant and therefore valid as a conclusion to be derived.

[tazman]

The fact that "....that's the way it's always done...." has never held very little sway with me over the years.
I will find some old-fashioned brass and run some trials.

First, however, I have to find an oversize/overlength expander, or all is for naught no matter what.) :-(
(and what I find fascinating is that Hornady's HBWC advertises "... pre-lubricated, extra-hard and cold swaged"... which I would think defeats the HB purpose for any number of reasons)

(and then... FWIW... my Model-19 cylinder throats pin gauge out to 0.356 -- which again makes me sit back and think.....)





...and...... I've ordered some Black Hills HBWC to play w/ experiment after..... Fun, fun, fun....

Have you slugged your revolver barrel to find out if the groove diameter is larger than the throats?
If the groove diameter is the same or smaller than the throats(unlikely but possible since I own one like that) you won't need to have the throats opened up. If the cylinder throats are smaller than the groove diameter, you will have issues. Probably with both leading and accuracy.
As far as the hard wadcutters from Hornady, even hard hollow based wadcutters will expand if sufficient pressure is applied.

[Clovis]

Does anybody actually sell wadcutter brass anymore? I don't recall ever seeing it listed as an option by any companies selling brass today.

[M-Tecs]

Does anybody actually sell wadcutter brass anymore? I don't recall ever seeing it listed as an option by any companies selling brass today.

I don't ever remember it being for sale. All of mine came for factory woodcutter ammo.

[USSR]

Does anybody actually sell wadcutter brass anymore? I don't recall ever seeing it listed as an option by any companies selling brass today.

They don't sell it as a component, only as ammo. You've got to either buy the ammo or buy the fired brass from an individual who fired the ammo.

Don

[tazman]

Does anybody actually sell wadcutter brass anymore? I don't recall ever seeing it listed as an option by any companies selling brass today.

Starline has claimed their 38 special brass conforms to the necessary specifications for use as wadcutter brass. You might contact them and verify.

[bgeipel]

What a timely topic. I just started casting Lyman 358495 sized to .359 yesterday and my first samples using a Hornady bullet seater/crimp did not chamber in my revolver. I switched to a Lee Factory Crimp and they chambered perfectly. Probably not what I wanted if the Lee Factory Crimp swaged the bullet down to .355

I will pull a loaded bullet tonight too see.

Just pulled it and indeed it was swaged down from .359 to .357

[mehavey]

As far as the hard wadcutters from Hornady, even hard hollow based wadcutters will expand if sufficient pressure is applied….

Ummmm….. See Post #31 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?352079-Wadcutter-brass-(38-spl)&p=4261421&viewfull=1#post4261421) ?

[35remington]

Moot point. Hornady’s wadcutters are not that hard. Harder than pure lead, but substantially softer than wheelweights.

[tazman]

I've got some 1970-ish HBWC Winchester target ammunition/cases in the basement (from back when I was a real person on a military pistol team).

I'll shot/reload some tomorrow.

Did you ever get the brass reloaded and shot? If so, what were your results?
I like getting data points even if they don't necessarily help right now or agree with my thoughts. I may learn some new data or a new way of thinking about things.
Some people have better luck getting things to make a difference than others. I have one revolver that simply doesn't care what gets shot through it. It all shoots good. The others, not so much.

[brewer12345]

Just pulled it and indeed it was swaged down from .359 to .357

FWIW, I cast that mold and shoot a lot of it. I tried the low charges often recommended and got "meh" results. When I bumped the powder charge up to 3.8 grains of HP38 it is great. Shoots far better than I can. Don't know if the Lee FCD is swaging the bullet down or not, but with good results who cares? I will be trying slightly softer alloy with this or a similar mold soon to see if it makes any difference.