Alloy to soft for sizing?

[The Lord Flashheart]

Guys,

I have finally managed to get up and running in boolit casting and have produced two lots from my two rifle molds.

The first ( and much easier to cast boolits ) mold is an inherited single cavity version of the Lee C309-180-R mold. I cast a batch of ten bullets from almost pure lead as an experiment (I'm toying with the idea of using a soft lead bullet in a subsonic hunting role and want it to expand in a controlled manner) and ten from an alloy of 10% Linotype to 90% pure lead ( ~ 0.4% tin, 1.4% antimony, balance lead) .

I put the former through the lubrisizer to fit gas checks and lube and ended up with these:

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A bit squashed and a bit bent...

I then tried the same with some Hollowpoints cast from a Milhec Ness safety bullet mold very kindly supplied by a member of this forum and found that the got even more squashed and bent...

211460211461

Despite using the correct, supplied nose punch, the nose section that previously measured almost bang on 0.300" now measured 0.325"...

I remelted these bullets down and some lino to the alloy to bring the composition up to the figures given above and tried again.

This time the Lee bullets came out looking much better after sizing ( the marks on the nose are from the bullet seater die) although some of them exhibit significant run out in the loaded round...

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the Ness bullets again still squashed down ( nose section measures 0.305 ish) but looked better:

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Any ideas chaps?

[Lloyd Smale]

What size are they out of the mold and what size are you sizing down too and what is the actual size out of the sizer. Ive had molds cast big and sizers smaller then marked. If everything else checks out just give the pile of unsized bullets a light spray of one shot case lube before sizing. my guess is its a combo of a big sized mold and a slightly to small sizer or even possibly a sizer that's on the rough side.

[Dusty Bannister]

You may want to consider a Lee Push Through type of sizer to get close to the needed final size as that would put the pressure on the base of the bullet before it goes through the die. And as already mentioned a little lube would be helpful. Are you hand seating the gas check before putting it in the die or just mashing the bullet into the check already in the sizer die? Sometimes you can just put too much pressure on the sizer handle after the bullet is already at the stop thinking that will prevent lube getting under the check and on top of the push out rod.

[The Lord Flashheart]

What size are they out of the mold and what size are you sizing down too and what is the actual size out of the sizer. Ive had molds cast big and sizers smaller then marked. If everything else checks out just give the pile of unsized bullets a light spray of one shot case lube before sizing. my guess is its a combo of a big sized mold and a slightly to small sizer or even possibly a sizer that's on the rough side.

They are around 0.313" out of the mold and the sizing die is 0.310" the final sized bullets come out very close to 0.310", maybe 0.3095".

Should I buy a 0.311" die to perform an intermediate sizing step?

[The Lord Flashheart]

You may want to consider a Lee Push Through type of sizer to get close to the needed final size as that would put the pressure on the base of the bullet before it goes through the die. And as already mentioned a little lube would be helpful. Are you hand seating the gas check before putting it in the die or just mashing the bullet into the check already in the sizer die? Sometimes you can just put too much pressure on the sizer handle after the bullet is already at the stop thinking that will prevent lube getting under the check and on top of the push out rod.

The gas checks are loose on the bullet shank before they have been through the sizer, they fall off in fact so I put them in the die and then put the bullet on top of them.

The Lee push through die might be an idea if sizing from the base would help?

[Dusty Bannister]

Sizing nose first would prevent the bending and nose distortion you are experiencing. It would also get a tight fit for the gas check. You may need to polish the entry into the die so it will have a gentle and smooth taper to allow the gas check to form and crimp a little easier.

[Lloyd Smale]

.003 isn't an overly big amount to size. My guess is your sizing die might not be all that smooth. If its an rcbs die as it looks like that's what kind of a sizing press you have id consider sending it back to rcbs. If its a newer die sometimes the smoothen out a bit with use. Try running some gas checked harder bullets through it for a while or try the one shot spray trick till it does smoothen out. One other thing with a base first sizer is you have to closely match your top punch with your bullet nose. Back when I used lymans I would get a cupped punch and put some jb weld in the nose of it and push a bullet in to get it to match the bullet then pull the bullet out and let it dry.
They are around 0.313" out of the mold and the sizing die is 0.310" the final sized bullets come out very close to 0.310", maybe 0.3095".

Should I buy a 0.311" die to perform an intermediate sizing step?

[gwpercle]

JB Weld also makes an epoxy putty that can be used for "fitting" , a small ball in the seater stem, press a greased bullet into the stem. Perfect custom fit . The putty doesn't run down into places you don't want it too.
A flat stem can be used to seat any bullet with a flat on it....maybe not those soft hollow points , but any boolit with a flat works just fine.
I've filled a few with JB Weld, let cure then sand dead flat.
Polish your sizing die out until it is as smooth as a baby's behind and try the spray lube.
Several of the new Lyman sizing dies were a bit rough and polishing them helped a lot .
Gary

[OS OK]

Have you thought about making a seating stem that fits to the bottom of the HP cavity and pushing there, not on the rim of the HP?

[popper]

Your alloy is too soft for base first sizing, GC doesn't help either (anneal them dead soft may help). It will also size smaller due to no springback of the soft alloy. You will probably have trouble seating also. You probably won't get much accuracy over 15-1600 fps from that soft alloy (strips too easy). You could H.T. it (1.5% Sb) and get better performance. With a Lee you could size then lube only in the base first. Or use BLL - 2 or 3 coats will do the job.

[Larry Gibson]

As mentioned, a Lee or NOE push through sizer is needed. Depending on how much you're sizing them down a couple sizers may be needed. With really soft and really hard alloys I prefer to not size more than .002 - .003 at one time. A light spray of case sizing lube is used on the bullets prior to sizing. Once sized to the correct diameter they are then lubed in a 450 with a H&I die that diameter or ar TL'd with light coat of LLA. I've shot a lot of 40-1 such cast bullets in .25 up the 45 calibers sized that way for sub-sonic use.

[fivefang]

Larry 20 some years ago I welded a 3/8" socket onto my Saeco Lub-sizer Handle & seated my 6.5 GC's with the same torque setting, just another way of a Millwright

[gpidaho]

A little off track here but the die body that you can purchase from Noe (great tool) has other parts with it that allow you to size nose first or base first, very handy tooling. Also, I've noticed that it is hard to size as much in one step with the Noe bushings when the die is installed in a press in the upside down fashion. The Lee gives better use of the compound linkage of your press. Here's where my Arbor press comes in handy. I use the Noe die and bushings as you would a Wilson hand die. Works great. Gp

[The Lord Flashheart]

Thank you chaps.

I am a little worried about polishing the inside of the die is that the stem might then be loose and I have no means of making another one, the same sadly goes for the excellent idea of having a top unch that fits the inside of the cavity.

I think that the Lee sizer ( or some other nose first sizer die ) might be a good idea to try.

I had an idea of perhaps removing the the stem from the die and pushing the bullets through it nose first with a flat top punch, Think it would work?

[Dusty Bannister]

Best way would be to try it and see. Who knows what kind of tolerances were held to keep the push out pin fitted to the die. Polishing should not remove metal, just smooth it. Push a lightly lubricated bullet through nose first and see what problem remains, if any.

[Forrest r]

When I cast the Mihec ness bullets out of a soft alloy I use a .311" lee push thru sizer to size them 1st. Then I install the gc (if needed) and then either use a traditional lyman 450 luber/sizer and a .311" sizing die. Or I pc them and run them thru the lee .311" push thru sizer again. I've also used 45/45/10 tumble lube on them after they've been sized in the lee .311" sizing die.

If you pushing the ness bullets 1200fps or less with traditional lubes or 1700fps or less with powder coated bullets. You really don't need a gc.

Anymore I take the traditionally lubed (either ben's red or ltb blue then tl lubed with 45/45/10) ness bullets and the pc'd bullets and run them in a tapered nose forming die. Doing this makes the ness bullet an exact fit/same contour as the throat in my 308w bbl.

I took a swc seating stem from a rcbs seating die an turned it into a flat ended stem. It does an excellent job of seating the ness bullets square/straight in the 308w cases and it doesn't compress/enlarge the long bore riding hp nose of the ness bullet.

Tin is your friend with these hp's if you're trying to make a soft expandable hp.

[gwpercle]

Polishing is just removing any rough edges or burrs thrown up during manufacture. You are not going to enlarge the hole.
My newest Lyman H die had some rough edges around the holes where the lube enters the die.
Use some 400 grit wet or dry abrasive paper wrapped around a wood dowel (pencil) to get any burrs , do this by hand, go carefully and add some oil to the paper. Then polish the hole with an old brass brush wrapped with a cloth patch and smeared with an polishing abrasive paste.
That's all ...the nose punch will still fit and the boolits will be much easier to run through the sizer .
Gary

[Lloyd Smale]

I don't know about that. Ive sized LONG 4570 bullets cast out of pure back when I used lyman sizing presses and didn't have bullets deforming. I do agree with popper though that a slightly harder alloy might be better. Only time I cast with just pure is for black powder shooting. A good expanding alloy for rifle bullets is 1/3 ww 2/3 pure. Bottom line is in my experience harder bullets ALLWAYS outshoot softer and that rule of thumb runs right up to straight linotype. In my over 40 years of casting I can count the times this statement was wrong on one hand.
Your alloy is too soft for base first sizing, GC doesn't help either (anneal them dead soft may help). It will also size smaller due to no springback of the soft alloy. You will probably have trouble seating also. You probably won't get much accuracy over 15-1600 fps from that soft alloy (strips too easy). You could H.T. it (1.5% Sb) and get better performance. With a Lee you could size then lube only in the base first. Or use BLL - 2 or 3 coats will do the job.

[The Lord Flashheart]

thanks again chaps, I have ended up with a Lee push through sizer that I have honed to the same sixe as the RCBS sizing die, which I now use only to lube the bullets.

Even pushing a sized bullet results in a little expansion at the hollowpoint but only around 0.001-2" rather than the 0.030 I was seeing before.

thanks again for all your help.212492

[popper]

I tried really soft alloy in rifle last year, big problem is getting right size as there is no spring back in soft. Only nose first sizing worked and seating is a pain. Really expand and flare the mouth good. I did get reasonable results with GCs in the 30/30, ~1500 fps, BLL lube. I tried Cu/Zn/Pb which kinda worked but adding 1% Sb got it to work good. I will suggest you try powder coating these for better results. You're going back to BP days where copious amounts of lube were used.