Feb 18 Handloader Magazine has an article on PC cast bullets

[bruce drake]

Came in the mail today. A decent article from John Havilland about the basics of PCing a cast bullet. It looks like he data trolled this subsection and then proceeded to make some PC pistol (38 & 45 caliber) and rifle (7mm and 308) bullets up to test. Slightly disappointed that he didn't test the rifle bullets at higher than standard-lube velocities (max velocity he used was a 7mm bullet at 1750fps) and I've shot higher velocities without leading with my Carnuba Red Lubes.

I'm interested in PC coating rifle bullets for up to 23-2400fps for use in 200-300 yard NRA Rifle matches so hopefully, I will find that information out shortly this spring at my new gunclub with its longer ranges.

But I digress, Good article! Now I better go buy some HF Red powder paint before it all sells out...

Bruce

[bruce drake]

well, I ordered a pound of powder today. Lets see how it goes when it comes in. I'm thinking of PC some 9mm and some 30 caliber bullets for the tests.

Time to go find an old toaster oven out at Goodwill for the initial test runs.

[#40Fan]

Hit up Wal-Mart. New toaster for $20.

[OS OK]

well, I ordered a pound of powder today. Lets see how it goes when it comes in. I'm thinking of PC some 9mm and some 30 caliber bullets for the tests.

Time to go find an old toaster oven out at Goodwill for the initial test runs.


210978

Give yourself at least 1/2 a chance using a 'toaster oven' and use one of these glass thermometers...otherwise your oven temperature is going to be all over the map. Toaster and Convection ovens will go off in left field fast...Watch yours closely until you get a feel for how it's thermostat works. Some have been set at 400*F. and have seen the thermostat cut out at 500~550*F. ... I think you are much better off buying at least a new & cheap convection oven for 30~$40 bucks...When my cheapo-convection gives up the ghost, I'll replace it with a $100 quality digital that I can depend on. Once you work out all your details about powder coating, you may never go back to lube-sizing unless it's for special applications on calibders you'd rather have that way.
You have to stay on top of those cheap toaster ovens or you'll be posting...

"What did I do wrong" instead of "Hey...check these out!"

[popper]

Forget the toaster oven. Get a decent hot plate (~1200 W), cheap flat ceramic tile and small sheet of steel plate covered with NSAF or parchment paper. Easy to stand up, no domino effect and NO PID (temp control ) needed. Even works in the garage @ <40F. You need the steel plate/tray if you want to WD or change trays. I can get 80 or so on the tile (which evens the heat). Oven is on the garage shelf gathering dust. I did hook up the PID to check temp, now I just set the dial to high and walk away, come back in 10- 60 (for WD) minutes when done. Haven't slumped any yet.
210979

[gpidaho]

Thanks popper; I got all that stuff. I'll give it a try. Gp`

[DerekP Houston]

Forget the toaster oven. Get a decent hot plate (~1200 W), cheap flat ceramic tile and small sheet of steel plate covered with NSAF or parchment paper. Easy to stand up, no domino effect and NO PID (temp control ) needed. Even works in the garage @ <40F. You need the steel plate/tray if you want to WD or change trays. I can get 80 or so on the tile (which evens the heat). Oven is on the garage shelf gathering dust. I did hook up the PID to check temp, now I just set the dial to high and walk away, come back in 10- 60 (for WD) minutes when done. Haven't slumped any yet.
210979

What are you maintaining the temp with on that? I usually leave a few ingots on my hotplate when I'm casting and I've had them liquefy on me.

[popper]

The tile appears to prevent hot spots on this one. I hooked the PID up just to monitor, even in the summer it works fine. It's a coil in plate one, went to 600F on the plate, Hi setting. Added the tile and ~ 500F was max. I had the probe in a large nut on top of the tile, so metal temp. Thought of putting the probe in a small ingot of lead but never did. In the summer, 10 min. from cold gets the flow phase of the PC. Last week < 40F and took ~ 15 min. Pic doesn't show the NSAF covered (3/16" thick) steel plate I'm using for W.D. Did > 400 rifle last week before the in-laws & GKs came so I need to change the foil. Foil was a used piece. Pic was AC so I didn't use the foil, just cook & AC.
So basically, just the hot plate control. Your mileage may vary. Just simple and fast for me, easy peasy. & I have done HiTek with the same rig.

[DerekP Houston]

Cool thanks for the follow up and more info. I've got some extra tiles left over from the renovations I'll slap one on my hotplate and give this a try.

[Bama]

Bruce, save yourself future misery and buy a pound of good powder like one from site vendor “Smoke”. It will make your learning curve a lot faster. Been there done that!

[res45]

If anyone doesn't subscribe to the magazine you can see the article here in there sample issue https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL312Partial2.pdf you can also download the PDF version of the article to your computer as well.

[OS OK]

If anyone doesn't subscribe to the magazine you can see the article here in there sample issue https://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/HL312Partial2.pdf you can also download the PDF version of the article to your computer as well.

Thanks for the link....Of all the powders in the world he could have featured, he picks 'Harbor Freight'!
I can hear the readers now mumbling to themselves..."It sure doesn't cover very well"!

[blikseme300]

They sure chose a lousy example to photograph but at least the message is getting out.

211116

[bruce drake]

Bruce, save yourself future misery and buy a pound of good powder like one from site vendor “Smoke”. It will make your learning curve a lot faster. Been there done that!

I've went with a gloss black and gloss white from Eastwood Paints. Their paints have also gotten good reviews and I was able to buy both those paints in 8oz bottles so I can have storage containers when I need to restock my powders and I buy them a pound at a time.

I got a nearly new Krup Convection toaster oven with a rack and a pan for $10 from the local Goodwill store. This model of oven is currently going for over $100 on Walmart.com, so I hope I've got a good bargain on it. I will pickup an oven thermoter to set in it tomorrow. My powders are due in tomorrow as well from Eastwood. so hopefully on Saturday I'll have my first batch cooked off.

[OS OK]

With your attention to detail and the lucky break on the oven...I'd be willing to bet your first batch will come out great!

[Bama]

You are about to be hooked. Keep good notes, you should be up to speed shortly--Welcome to the adventure!

[#40Fan]

I just received some high gloss black from Eastwood. Didn't do too well in the shake and bake method (no BBs added), yet the gray I purchased at the same time was a lot better. Using the ES method, the gray went on slick compared to HF red. Interested in how your black turns out.

[white eagle]

Bruce, save yourself future misery and buy a pound of good powder like one from site vendor “Smoke”. It will make your learning curve a lot faster. Been there done that!

I agree if I can do it anyone can

[bruce drake]

I just received some high gloss black from Eastwood. Didn't do too well in the shake and bake method (no BBs added), yet the gray I purchased at the same time was a lot better. Using the ES method, the gray went on slick compared to HF red. Interested in how your black turns out.

Were you doing the shake and bake with plastic bbs like many others do? I intend to run with the airsoft pellets and a cool whip #5 canister to start since that has been a proven method already.

[white eagle]

Yep you bet get it all from Smoke
one other tip to precharge you shake by shaking it without
bullets in the charge it up works good
its addicting be careful

[F_L]

Forget the toaster oven. Get a decent hot plate (~1200 W), cheap flat ceramic tile and small sheet of steel plate covered with NSAF or parchment paper. Easy to stand up, no domino effect and NO PID (temp control ) needed. Even works in the garage @ <40F. You need the steel plate/tray if you want to WD or change trays. I can get 80 or so on the tile (which evens the heat). Oven is on the garage shelf gathering dust. I did hook up the PID to check temp, now I just set the dial to high and walk away, come back in 10- 60 (for WD) minutes when done. Haven't slumped any yet.
210979
Popper has cornered the market on simplicity. I first saw this in the "Standing Tall Bullets" thread. I tried it and it works great.
F_L

[popper]

One note I forgot to add- do NOT try moving the tile when hot. If you want to WD or do multiple batches, use a metal plate which can easily be moved with 2 pliers. You DON'T want a bunch of hot boolits and tile in unfortunate places - brittle tile. I did try a metal cover over the H.P., too much trouble and it didn't really help anything. When I cast some more I'll try using HiTek powder as DT and cook - no drying needed?. ESPC the HiTek powder worked fine.

[#40Fan]

Were you doing the shake and bake with plastic bbs like many others do? I intend to run with the airsoft pellets and a cool whip #5 canister to start since that has been a proven method already.

I didn't use BBs. I have the HF ES machine, but wanted to try out the new powders before I cleaned up the gun. I had never tried the shake and bake method, but I loaded up two #5 containers with each powder and 5 bullets and shook them both the same amount of time. The gray turned out the best.

I did ES some black today and they turned out great too.

Don't mind the lint that can really be seen on the black.

http://image.ibb.co/cMg1CG/IMG_20180105_174736.jpg (http://ibb.co/hi2mew)

[bruce drake]

211224

Poly coated with a coat of Eastwood White then a 2nd of Black. Both provided good coverage but the first time I laid them down on the pan and I didn't like the flat spot on the bullets left by the hardened PC so I gave them another coat after I seated a gascheck on the bullets and sized them to .309. The second coat of Black Poly coat bumped the size back up to .311" So off they went to be loaded up for a test shoot tomorrow.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I personally thought that article did a major disservice to PCing Boolits and I will tell them so at SHOT in a few weeks.

Why would you put a picture of poorly coated boolits on the Cover????? Nobody is going to get interested seeing that !!!

Friends of mine from my Club were calling me all day yesterday wondering how these made the cover?

He did the bare minimum to get some PC on some boolits. He also didn't even stand them up when he cooked them which shows he wasn't trying very hard to make a decent looking product. Complained about the extra time it took and said he would keep using the Lubrisizer. Too much effort to do it right.

Making Ammunition requires "Attention to Detail" and "Personal Responsibility," these are the two components of Craftsmanship.

No Craftsmanship whatsoever displayed in this article and as a result I have no use for it. Many here have heard me say many times, that if you don't give a ship about what you do I got no use for you. Well here's a perfect example of just that.

In my opinion this was a half assed attempt at PCing, and most people here do better on their first attempt, I know I did. This is what happens when a writer gets and assignment he doesn't want to do. I already bitched to some of the staff last Friday and plan on calling them back tomorrow.

He also only mentioned in passing that using a $70 PC gun, which actually does a decent job the very first time you use it, was an option. Oh **** you've got to have an Air Compressor and a regulator. News Flash: Most people that have any mechanical skills at all have Air Compressors in their garages now. You can buy one to blow up your tires for $80 at HF!

I wanted to write that article but I knew they would have rejected it no matter how well it was written, mainly because they wouldn't even have looked at it! And that is because I am not on their list of staff writers. Already tried going down that road but got nothing but NO and lack of interest, and NO cuz your not a "Journalist!"

Pretty disappointed really. They could have had these on the cover.See Pic

Sorry for the rant but I see this magazine deteriorating rapidly and it bothers me This issue had 66 pages! And readership is declining rapidly. That is why I stopped advertising my Hand Press there.

Randy

[OS OK]

Thanks Buchanan for the rant...I completely agree and wanted to write the same thing you did about the half-baked attempt and choice of procedure but thought I better not as I'm skating on thin ice around here as it is...thought it may construed as 'trolling' or something else.

I'm so disgusted with Handloader Magazine for all the regurgitated articles they've done in the past I gave all mine to albunaito over in Hawaii and they will never get another nickel out of me ever again. I've seen many a post right here in forum that has put more effort into an article!

So...when you give them the 'What For' give them a big 'What For' for me too!

c h a r l i e

[waco]

Thanks Buchanan for the rant...I completely agree and wanted to write the same thing you did about the half-baked attempt and choice of procedure but thought I better not as I'm skating on thin ice around here as it is...thought it may construed as 'trolling' or something else.

I'm so disgusted with Handloader Magazine for all the regurgitated articles they've done in the past I gave all mine to albunaito over in Hawaii and they will never get another nickel out of me ever again. I've seen many a post right here in forum that has put more effort into an article!

So...when you give them the 'What For' give them a big 'What For' for me too!

c h a r l i e

Between the two cast bullet boards I hang out on I can get 10 times better info than from any of todays gun rags.....just my 2 cents....

[white eagle]

that half *** attempt at powder coating is evident in the
article itself ...mediocre at best

[magoo1]

Half ***** or is that Half Baked? I read the article with some excitement that they showcased the same thing that i have been doing for a few years. I think the writer is a "beginner" to the process and in a few months will get better at it. I found the information good, with the differences between "p.c" and non "p.c" interesting. When I tell others of my process with casting and "coating" i find it helpful to refer to the article. I also think that as this process goes mainstream we will find more people in the shooting arena also becoming casters. I say this could only help everyone.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

So just how bad is the odor when baking the pc boolits?

[zymguy]

So just how bad is the odor when baking the pc boolits?

i cant speak to how bad it is health wise but as a single guy i was able to do a batch in my kitchen oven, i did run the fan but was not bothered by any odor

[res45]

So just how bad is the odor when baking the pc boolits?

I cure mine in a convection toaster oven out in my shop, I've never smelled any odor from the curing bullets.

[RP]

I notice some odor with some colors not so much with others my nose is not that great, My wife has a nose that will pick up anything and she has not complained about the smell out in the shop but heck I am out in the shop. To me the odor is no big deal.

[Cosmic_Charlie]

Thanks fellas. I've got about 750 Hornady hbwc that came undersized at .356 and an SP 101 with .359 throats so I thought I'd wash off the dry lube and see if I can bump up the size by pc them.

[bruce drake]

211618
the Eastwood Gloss Black is excellent. The Gloss White is ok and I'll probably mix the two together shortly to create a mixed gray when I decide to get more powders to play with/sort my loads by.

Bruce

[rockshooter]

Cosmic Charlie-easier to just shoot the HBWC- they are designed to obturate and seal the bore. Lot of work involved in cleaning commercial lube off well enough to PC.
Loren

[bruce drake]

Just ordered 3lbs of Eastwood Powder that were on clearance and with shipping it came at just $31. I should be set for a while.

1lb of Primer Black, I'll probably add that into my gloss black/gloss white mix as it currently looks a great grey when applied but turns into a speckled glossy off-white once its cured and I prefer a darker bullet than the pure white.

1lb of Architectural Bronze. price was too low to look away from and maybe it will make the bullets look FMJ or somesuch. If not, it will go into the porridge-grey mix already described.

1lb of V-Twin Orange - Going for some bright to make them contrast with the brass cartridges in my rifle bullets so I can mark them as my high velocity loads in the future. And the price was great.

[dryflash3]

I thought that pic was awful, even my first batch looked better than that.
Article was not written with an open mind.

[robg]

It was a non useful article very disappointing learnt nothing .

[flydad]

Amen! I use Smoke's Signal Blue, and Flame Red with good success.

[M-96 Hunter]

Really terrible article, not up to usual standards. You would think a respected gunwriter would have found this site and the correct way to PC !

Have had several friends quote it as a reason not to PC.

Also sad that they never publish subscribers' letters !

[popper]

212536
Did this this morning. Worked great but I had to put a cake pan over it today to get temp up. Smoke's red flows great but doesn't 'pop' till much higher temp. I did monitor the temp with my PID probe but had to put a couple towels over it to get a good reading. Never got to 375f but I could smell the 'pop' at about 270F. Single coat (S&B) added ~0.001" to diam., where I want it for pistol. Method works great just make sure it gets cured well by smell or temp monitor.

[Willbird]

He also only mentioned in passing that using a $70 PC gun, which actually does a decent job the very first time you use it, was an option. Oh **** you've got to have an Air Compressor and a regulator. News Flash: Most people that have any mechanical skills at all have Air Compressors in their garages now. You can buy one to blow up your tires for $80 at HF!



Randy

For the low pressure and CFM it sounds like the gun uses (I just bought one but have not opened the box) a person could just buy a tire tank....and have a tire tank in the bargain :-). When I was a teenager I converted an empty Freon bottle into an air tank for my airbrush.

https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore%2Cf%2CEAFeatured+Weight%2Cf%2CSale+R ank%2Cf&q=air+tank

[lazs]

Ok.. newish here and just ran into this thread. I agree on the quality and professionalism of the article. I emailed the editor explaining how PC and HT are seriously a viable option these days and much better than conventional lube/size in many ways. I explained that I did conventional lube/size for (too many) decades but now find that PC and HT are far superior. He actually wrote back and asked if he could call me. Nice man.. had good questions and listened well. probly 1/2 hour conversation. I explained that there are many many many more experienced coaters than me out there but that both PC and HT were simple to do with a short learning curve and... were better than past methods in many ways including lead dust in indoor ranges. I told him I thought the article was **** on a stick. And.. asked why there are not more articles on the process? Anyway... nice guy.. asked if any of his journalists could call me if they had questions...I said yes but none have ever called that I am aware of.

Ok... he basically said that his journalists are pretty hidebound and possibly the readers. Call me a skeptic but... now that a few advertisers are selling HT coat bullets.... what do we see? an new article by Venturrio who never did one on PC or HT before... he mentions in a gun ammo test that one of the bullets used is from missouri bullet and is a Hi-Tek coating while the rest were conventional lube/size. Not really much detail but he does go on to say that the best group was with the MB HT coated bullets. Look... I like those authors and have read em all for years and years but man... a can of Unique and a lead laddle over a campfire and some creaky old luber/sizer ... well... there are alternatives.

In short... I expect to see more articles on coated bullets. I expect that most will be on HT tho since some advertisers sell HT coated bullets. Again.. call me a skeptic but if some commercial casting outfit offered PC bullets and advertised em in the mag... we would see a PC coat test or ten. I don't blame em a bit tho.. they are there to sell advertising and when HT was not being offered by commercial casters... how would it look to say "hey.. these are far superior to any of the bullets you see in our adds that are conventional lube/size" ??? no way.

lazs

[lazs]

Wow.. just as I finish writing the above my new issue of Handloader comes in. The June issue. and missouri bullet gets one mention and one full article... then mention is on MP molds and the article is Venturio doing a test of about 5 caliber of MB Hi-Tek coated bullets. He uses a few not very accurate handguns and some real good ones... he uses only one bullet weight for each caliber except 9mm I believe... that is fine.. only one or two loads all pretty much full tilt.

Anyway.. he gets some pretty good results. He admits that some guns with mismatched throat/barrel dia that did not shoot well before all of a sudden got some good groups. most groups ran around 2" at 25 yards from a ransom rest but I am sure even the poor performing ones could do better with some different loadings.

What would have made the test better in my opinion would have been if he had shot the same bullets and loads from the same guns in both conventional lube/size and the HT coat ones to compare... and... if he had actually mentioned no smoke and how easy the guns cleaned up... he pretty much just says that when he is feeling lazy he might use the MB HT bullets... oh well... baby steps right?

Again.. call me cynical but..... Missouri Bullet is advertising their HT coated bullets in the mag.

lazs

[Dragonheart]

Bruce, save yourself future misery and buy a pound of good powder like one from site vendor “Smoke”. It will make your learning curve a lot faster. Been there done that!

I have to ditto that.

If you are getting started then start out with good powder that has proven to work. There are a number of polymers and a much greater number of additives in the polymers. HF is not your best powder choice for bullets. As Bama said, "Been there done That", so learn from our mistakes.

[aws1963]

Started with HF for one session and have not touched the little bucket since. Eastwood Red covered so much better with my "shake and bake" method. Going to get some of Smoke's sample pack in a week or so. Good Powder makes all the difference.

[Dragonheart]

212536
Did this this morning. Worked great but I had to put a cake pan over it today to get temp up. Smoke's red flows great but doesn't 'pop' till much higher temp. I did monitor the temp with my PID probe but had to put a couple towels over it to get a good reading. Never got to 375f but I could smell the 'pop' at about 270F. Single coat (S&B) added ~0.001" to diam., where I want it for pistol. Method works great just make sure it gets cured well by smell or temp monitor.

Hi Popper, I am not saying your method doesn't work, but I am curious as to why use it over an oven?

My toaster ovens come to temp and stabilize to properly cure the powder so I have no need for a PID. I have used the ovens for so long I just set the timer go do something else and it a done deal. I can coat 1200 handgun bullets in a single cook.

But my big reason is my ovens do a good job of confining the vapors given off by the PC process as the vapors are a known health hazard and the reason a PC oven should never be used for food.

[bruce drake]

I have to ditto that.

If you are getting started then start out with good powder that has proven to work. There are a number of polymers and a much greater number of additives in the polymers. HF is not your best powder choice for bullets. As Bama said, "Been there done That", so learn from our mistakes.

I've only used a sample of HF Red twice to confirm I hate it. Eastwood Paints have spoiled me already. Never a bad coating using airsoft bbs and a coolwhip container.

[popper]

D-H I've been using the hot plate to cook as I also (mostly) do 30cal rifle boolits and they don't fall over. It gets hot enough to set PC but I need to get a little over 400F for WD my alloy. Got to get to the store to get the thermocouple connector so I can hook up the PID. My general purpose workbench gets crowded with the oven.