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Oldfeller
11-21-2005, 12:10 PM
Cheapskates used to buy old Lake City brass because it was cheap. Now-a-days, it ain't so cheap anymore and but the knowlegeable buy it because it is THICKER than commercial brass, both in the walls, at the web and more importantly at the neck (which makes for better bullet alignments in standard commercial chamber necks).

I bought another 1,000 7.65 Nato once fired brass a few months ago. It was struck at Lake City arsenal a long durn time ago, 1979 and 1986 predominately, and apparently it was fired a long time ago too. 1 in 25 primers will NOT come out, but prefer to break the head off the primer leaving an unremoveable wall ring in the primer pocket, which makes for a scrapped case. This is not good, and the phenomina will only get worse as the years roll on and the amount of corrosion increases.

So, here is how to deal with stuck primer pocket old miltary brass. Put a trash can liner in a small trash can, pour in the "as shipped" cleaned brass. Take a bottle of cooking oil and pour in a quarter cup, drizzling it in as you stir the brass around. Leave it sit for at least a week, pulling the bag up periodically and manipulating the mass of brass to move the oil around really good.

Goal is to get the oil down inside the case and all around and in the primer pockets. Cooking oil is a polar solvent, it will remove old bumper stickers from car bumpers and it will unstick corroded crimped in primers right through the corrosion -- if given enough time to work through the corrosion. Think of it as slow acting Kroil and you won't be too far off the mark.

When you go to size/deprime the brass, it is lubed already and the neck has lube inside it already too. The primers pop out fairly easily and your dies don't get all scratched up either (works better than most commerical spray on lubes anyway). I use a long handled cast iron LEE press to crunch my military brass -- the long handle makes it a breeze to process and the solid cast iron construction isn't even stressed by crunching through the oversized machine gun case wall expansion and the crimped in primer removal.

So now you got deprimed brass with the machine gun expansion taken out of them -- except for the crimped primer pockets -- nasty old primer pockets.

Inside bevel your primer pockets and the inside of your case mouths with a LEE bevel tool mounted on a wooden dowl (tape wrapped around the dowel will make up the size difference right nicely).

Why a cheap LEE bevel tool? Because unlike expensive milling cutter type bevel tools a LEE tool can be easily resharped with a strip of fine grit sanding belt drawn through it so the burr is pushed "out" on the cutting edges (you got to do the two protruding cutter edges intentionally this way, so one gets drawn along the fine sanding belt "backwards" to the way the other one gets drawn. Plus, LEE tools actually cut more slowly and predicably, so when you are driving them fast with a drill they are actually more controllable.

And you will dull up a matching spot on your inside chamfer tool when you start playing with military brass by the thousands at drill driven speeds. Keep that cutter sharp and the job will be neater and not take as long either.

Last, take all the media out of your vibratory tumbler and put in a goodly clump of your oily brass, some dishwashing soap and a SMALL amount of hot water. Go light on the water, you want to generate light frothy suds, not a sea of solid liquid. An hour of noisy tumbling will shine the brass wonderfully (right through any outside corrosion BTW) and it will also do wonders for removing internal pocket corrosion and internal wall darkness. The cooking oil penetrated the stuff completely remember and the liquid dishwashing soap was made to "cut the grease" so the entire corrosion powder fouling mess gets ultra-sonic cleaned out of the corners while the brass bounces around in your tumbler.

(if you don't think ultra-sonics are being generated inside the cases, explain to me how some of the cases will spurt a continuous jet of wet suds out of the primer hole or out of the case mouth -- something real energetic is going on in there at certain spots in the bowl, just stick your hand down near the bottom of the mass at that point and you can feel it buzzing your fingers.

Oldfeller

P.S. Store your uncleaned excess mil-surp brass this way, all cooking oil coated inside of plastic bags -- it keeps the shiny shiny and the corrosion at bay for the many years it may take you to use up a 1,000 piece buy of mil-surp brass. Do store your brass away from insects, they like the oil and can come set up shop in your brass boxes if you forget the simple trick of spraying your long stored brass down all over the sealed bags with Diazanon (or Raid for you city slickers) before sealing the boxes up with tape.

carpetman
11-21-2005, 12:29 PM
Oldfeller---If you use cooking oil on your cases will you have to mix Simvastatin or some such into the powder to reduce the cholesterol?

Blackwater
11-22-2005, 03:44 AM
Oldfeller, thanks for the tip. I've never heard of using cooking oil as a corrosion treatment nor as a sizing lube. Are canola, corn, peanut, etc. equally effective as sizing lubes?

Oldfeller
11-22-2005, 11:19 AM
It's too messy for regular use as a die lubricant, but since you used it as a polar solvent to loosen up the pocket corrosion you might as well go ahead and size the cases using it as a messy die lube. It doesn't take but a second when you are done to wipe out your sizing die to clean out the oily mess.

I have 500 Lake City in the vibratory bowl right now running on soap & water that was about the nastiest stuff I ever seen -- yet it will be fully recovered by these techniques.

Jumptrap will tell you gasoline is the least expensive effective cleaning solution for cosmoline -- and he is right. I will tell you that cooking oil (and I don't think the variety really matters very much) is the least expensive corrosion penentrant and it can be used as mil-surp bulk case sizing lubricant as well.

You HAVE to use enough of whatever you use to get all down inside the case and soften up the powder residues and penetrate the stuck primer pockets from both sides. Try doing that on a thousand cases with your spray can or roller pad -- simpler cheaper bulk methods are needed.

Plus, what you use now won't help with the root problem -- corroded in place primers. Before, quick pre-lubing with a spray can I lost one in 25 as the top would break off the primer before the corrosion on the side walls would let go. Depriming pressures were very high as well. I finished processing the entire thousand after soaking them for a week in cooking oil and I lost 8 more cases and I could operate the handle one handed. This is an advantage.

Oldfeller

MakeMineA10mm
12-17-2007, 05:12 PM
oldfeller,
Do you leave the crusty crud on the cases when you're sizing, or does it flake off as the case is run into the die?

I have a bunch of 45ACPs that are corroded, and I've just put a hundred or so of them in a milk jug with some soybean oil (cholesterol-free, Carpetman! :mrgreen: ), and am going to follow your directions on agitating them for about a week.

I had already de-capped these, when I first got them a hundred years ago (or so it seems), but some of them have an amazingly thick coating of black crud. I tried polishing them for about 8 hours in corn cob with Flitz, and it shined the heck out of the clean parts of the case, but where the corrosion was it is just black with a built-up thick gummy layer.

I also have a few thousand of these cases that are not yet de-capped or polished, so they should turn out exactly as you describe. I'll get to those, after these de-capped ones are done.

DLCTEX
12-17-2007, 10:49 PM
I got 5 gal. of used cooking oil from the local convenience store a year ago for use on cases. Haven't made much of a dent in it yet. It works as well as new after straining it through an old T shirt. Dale

SPRINGFIELDM141972
01-03-2008, 12:37 PM
I have used apple cider vinger with good success in this application as well. My brass had been exposed to seawater then stored in plastic bags, what a mess.
When removed from the vinger after three days of soaking, none of the brass had a black spot on them, and when I deprimed them I didn't lose a single case. I do see the advantages of a "pre-lubed" case, but if you dont want the mess then you could try vinger. I have reused my vinger so many times it is almost the consistancy of machine oil but still keeps right on cleaning the cases.

I hope this helps

Everett

Ricochet
01-03-2008, 03:32 PM
Dunno about canola or peanut oil, but castor oil is a terrific sizing lube! It's the s__t!

Only problem with it is, it gets very sticky over a few months, so it's a bad idea to put it in a lube pad.

Four Fingers of Death
01-03-2008, 05:19 PM
How do you get around messing up the shoulders when resizing this way?

MT Gianni
01-03-2008, 08:11 PM
Dunno about canola or peanut oil, but castor oil is a terrific sizing lube! It's the s__t!

Only problem with it is, it gets very sticky over a few months, so it's a bad idea to put it in a lube pad.

A friend just retired and went in to the custom bullet business. At the present he is making only a .408 jackted HP, but his sizing lube for the jackets is 50/50 anhydrous lanolin and castor oil. That is something many of us have on hand for FWFL. Gianni

MakeMineA10mm
01-04-2008, 06:50 PM
Well, sorry to say, but oldfeller's system did not work at all for me. I did change two things from his directions: I used an old gallon milk jug and generic "vegatable oil". Didn't touch the black stuff at all.

I'm gonna try the apple vinegar next.

Springfield - how do you wash the vinegar off of the cases? I'm not putting Dawn or other dish-liquid in my tumbler again (left a residue I had to clean out with alcohol wipes). Anyone try Simple Green?

scrapcan
01-10-2008, 11:51 AM
I hav eto say I have used the vegetable oil soak for other things, not bor corroded stuck primers.

I have an old GI M1950 stove that I could not get the pump plunger apart to put in new pump leather. It was stated that I may have to use a bit of force to get the brass double nut affair apart. I tried all the muscle I had with two 8 inch water pump pliers being not all that careful about knicking the knurling on the brass pieces. No dice. I let the pump unit set in a half cup of used vegetable oil,m just enough to cover the parts, for two days. I then was able to loosen the parts with hand pressure only.

Technique works for other than corroded primers.

Ricochet
01-10-2008, 12:50 PM
As for shoulders, I've dented quite a few. Look bad, but straighten out on firing. Cure is to be very careful about not getting much oil on the case necks.

SPRINGFIELDM141972
01-10-2008, 01:15 PM
Makeminea10mm,

I simply rinse them with hot water. I normally use boiling water just to aid in drying, but hot water from the tap will remove the vinger and crud. Hope it works for you as well as it does for me.

Everett

MakeMineA10mm
01-11-2008, 01:47 AM
Thanks, Springfield!

I'll report back on my results.

If'n that doesn't work, I'll try Simple Green.

If that doesn't work, I'll load these and leave them lie wherever I shoot them up at...

Blitzfike
01-16-2008, 11:43 AM
One method I use for cleaning cases is a mix of liquid laundry detergent, white vinegar and a small amount of 3% hydrogen peroxide. About an eighth of a cup of detergent to two cups of vingearand about an ounce of peroxide. If you want it to work faster, heat it before using. The peroxide speeds the process up but is not required if you heat the mixture. A word of caution, don't leave the cases in longer than necessary as I have had some darken with too long an exposure. Blitz

MakeMineA10mm
01-30-2008, 01:56 PM
Makeminea10mm,

I simply rinse them with hot water. I normally use boiling water just to aid in drying, but hot water from the tap will remove the vinger and crud. Hope it works for you as well as it does for me.

Everett

Everett,
You are da MAN! Bought a $.50 quart bottle of plain vinegar (which is diluted with water to 5% acidity, according to the label). I poured some in a clean gallon milk jug and put a half-dozen of the corroded 45ACP cases in it and let it sit overnight. This morning, I walked downstairs, looked through the opaque jug and didn't see much change. I picked up the jug and when jossling it around saw a ton of black flakes floating around. Got excited. Opened the lid and looked inside and saw that something is definitely going on in there. Closed it and shook the jug for a 30 seconds. All the black stuff just fell off!!! :mrgreen:

I screened out the cases and inspected them. Two or three of them looked perfect, like they were just picked up off the range and ready to be tumbled and loaded. The other three had turned bright pinkish-orange where the corrosion had been. Thinking on it awhile, it seems to me this is just a reaction between the rust in the brass and the acid. Took the cases to the sink and rinsed them in hottest tap water I could get going. Threw them in the tumbler, and we'll what comes out in a couple hours. I'm confident I'm going to save at least half of the corroded brass with this method.

THANK YOU! :drinks:

I must admit I was a little concerned about the acid weakening the case, but I checked the worst-looking pinkish-orange case of this group that sat in the acid for 13 hours, and I could not squish it with my fingers, no matter what angle I tried. I COULD bend it when setting it against a hard object (like my concrete wall), but I could do that with non-corroded and acid-bathed brass too... SO, I don't think the acid bath hurts the brass in any way, shape, or form.





On a similar note, while at the store, I found a tube of stuff called MAAS (comes in a bright metalic blue cardboard box). It says it's safe for brass and most other kinds of metal, and it's supposed to be for cleaning off rust, corrosion and tarnish. It's a creamy paste and the directions say to wipe it on, let it sit a SHORT while (don't let it dry), and then wipe/scrub it off. I was going to try this with some paper towels and the green scrubby pads the wife uses for pots and pans, but since the vinegar works so well and is a lot less tedious, I may just test it on a few pieces of brass and report back here on it's worth.

Wicky
01-30-2008, 06:55 PM
This is why a bloke joins these forums. Learnt a ton of stuff just off this thread.
Thanks to you all - now to get down and oily with some old military cases.

SPRINGFIELDM141972
02-01-2008, 03:26 PM
Glad I could help:-D. I have alot of brass that I have been shooting with the pink discoloration for 5 years now and have not had a failure in those areas. Happy Shooting!

Regards,
Everett

Reloader06
02-01-2008, 11:28 PM
Springfield,

Just rinsed off a small test batch of brass and nickle pieces. I am amazed! While this may not be the "Holy Grail" of brass cleaning, it certainly IS a very useful tool in the kit. A piece of 10 mm was so brown-black from sitting in the elements at the range I didn't expect much. It came out of a 2 1/2 day bath with hopes of being very shiny! The deposits on the inside of the cases are almost gone. I would never have thought of humble vinegar doing such a good job without weakening the cases. One question though. You said you have been using brass treated this way for 5 years. Is that pistol only or is that rifle too? (Pressure, weakened brass)
Thanks very much for the tip.

Matt:drinks:

JSH
02-02-2008, 10:49 AM
I picked up a bunch of range brass a week ago. I am a dumpster diver and range brass junkie. I have had thoughts on giving the vinegar a shot in the past but have yet to try it.
I have a batch of walnut with the rouge impregnated into it. That is what I start with on dirty brass. I do however always put a couple of caps of mineral spirits in the bowl as it is tumbling. Make sure and put the lid on tight so it doesn't evaporate out on you. I let that go over night most of the time. Then, sift that batch out and replace with another batch, along with another capful of mineral spirits.
To put a final polish on the brass I use either flitz or Dillon case polish, along with a bit of a splash of car wax. Corn cob is the media for the polish. If it seems the brass doesn't polish up as nice as I like, I will put a capful of mineral spirits in this also. The mineral spirits seem to "wake" up the polish and wax.
I have had guys worry about the mineral spirits killing primers. I got the mineral spirits trick from a BR shooter,btw. I always let the brass "air" out for at least a day before I put it back into it's respective place. I have NEVER had it kill a primer, nor have I seen or felt any kind of greasey or oily film.
As far as tumblers go I have seen some guys put way more brass in the bowl than it will handle. Yes the cases are moving, but not like they should IMHO. I have found less is better with dirty cases. This way you get the most action out of the media and cases. I fill my bowl to about 1" from the top with media. Turn it on and start adding cases. When it gets up to the lip, almost to go over the side, that is all the brass I put in it, no matter what size cases they are.
Jeff

SPRINGFIELDM141972
02-02-2008, 11:27 PM
Reloader6

When I said 5 years, I was referring to 45acp brass. I have only used vinegar with rifle casings on a few 308 brass casings (50 or so pieces) that I retrieved while in the military. I have not shot these much, maybe 6 times but no signs of weak cases. I really don't think there is much need for concern about weakening the cases if you just use it to remove the heavy corrosion and then use your normal case cleaning products with the brass for the final clean/polish.

Kind Regards,
Everett

Reloader06
02-03-2008, 12:10 AM
Everett,

Thanks for the info. I am thinking (yeah I know DANGEROUS:-D) that the acid level in the vinegar is low enough to be safe to soak the brass for quite some time before there would be any weakening of the brass. Might have to do an experiment with a low pressure case. Hummmm. Thanks again.

Matt:drinks:

MakeMineA10mm
02-03-2008, 01:15 AM
JSH,
Good info. The man who taught me reloading had a gallon of Mineral Spirits under the reloading bench. (This was back in the days before tumblers.) His instructions were to hand-clean each piece of brass with a shop-rag wetted slightly with mineral spirits. Never thought of putting some in the tumbler media - Glad you refreshed my recollection and reported your good results.

I'm finding with these severely-coroded pieces that Flitz is better at making them shiney, and Dillon's polish is better at reducing the pink-ish-ness. I think this is because of the solvent-type chemicals in the Flitz (maybe mineral spirits?) vs. the petroleum products in the Dillon. (Both of these polishes are pale-blue in color, but they have different ingrediants and definitely smell different.)


Reloader6 - Be careful about how long you let the cases sit. I've let my longest test batch sit for just under 24 hours, and the vinegar turned green, which indicates it is eating the copper in the brass. Not enough to apparently make much difference, as none of the cases have shown any sign of weakness, but I wouldn't want to forget a load of brass for like a week!!! :mrgreen:


Everett - You've saved me several thousand casings. I definitely owe you one! :drinks:

Reloader06
02-03-2008, 01:25 AM
MakeMine

Thanks, will do.

Matt

pipehand
02-12-2008, 07:09 PM
I've tried the vinegar method before when "precleaning " large lots of grungy brass before putting it into the tumbler. It does work, and even better with a few drops of dishwashing liquid added as a wetting agent. This is the first time I heard of using vegetable oil. Maybe a combination of the two processes could be called the "light vinaigrette" brass cleaning method.